India-US Strategic News and Discussion

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 May 2011 07:22

Balanced means == or one who says on the other hand.

Doesn't mean takes sides.

I think Ashley Tellis is respected for he balances US and Indian interests in that order. The others balance US and TSP interests even at cost of Indian interests.

Unfair wants to slice India and give it to the mad dog. What she doesn't know is they will come back for more!!!

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 26 May 2011 07:22

Rudradev:

Thank you for your post. One thing I too have realized is that chattering experts are likely to be less influential than the non-chattering onces. If your views matter you do not have to beat your drum in the MSM, and vice-versa.

On BRF people do get worked up with CCF because she is the most visible South Asian analyst out there. And she is really weird; uses foul language and in general tries too hard to get her point across.

Regarding the blackmail of the US, we have discussed this in the China-US in TSP thread. When it comes to running the WOT, why don't they unofficially stop recognizing the Durand Line and doing hot-chases etc.? It will cause tremendous H&D loss but will call the TSPA's bluff and perhaps be more effective in rooting out the Bad (er Good) Taleban.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 26 May 2011 09:36

VikramS wrote: On BRF people do get worked up with CCF because she is the most visible South Asian analyst out there. And she is really weird; uses foul language and in general tries too hard to get her point across.

Not to mention dresses like a behen-ji and looks like a Caucasian incarnation of Madame Jalebi (Phiki Jalebi).

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 26 May 2011 13:29

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/85 ... biswas.png

something wrong with my eyes?

ManjaM · Post by **ManjaM** » 26 May 2011 14:30

US throws rule book at India, says no immunity for diplomat family

Family members of the diplomats do carry diplomatic passports, he acknowledged but diplomatic immunity does not apply to them, he noted.

And the State department spokesman Mark Toner is lying. Here is why -
http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instru ... 1_1961.pdf

The relevant sections -

Article 37
1. The members of the family of a diplomatic agent forming part of his household shall, if they are
not nationals of the receiving State, enjoy the privileges and immunities specified in articles 29 to 36

What are articles 29-36

Article 31
1. A diplomatic agent shall enjoy immunity from the criminal jurisdiction of the receiving State.
He shall also enjoy immunity from its civil and administrative jurisdiction, except in the case of:
(a) A real action relating to private immovable property situated in the territory of the receiving State,
unless he holds it on behalf of the sending State for the purposes of the mission;
(b) An action relating to succession in which the diplomatic agent is involved as executor,
administrator, heir or legatee as a private person and not on behalf of the sending State;
(c) An action relating to any professional or commercial activity exercised by the diplomatic agent in
the receiving State outside his official functions.
2. A diplomatic agent is not obliged to give evidence as a witness.
3. No measures of execution may be taken in respect of a diplomatic agent except in the cases
coming under subparagraphs (a), (b) and (c) of paragraph 1 of this article, and provided that the
measures concerned can be taken without infringing the inviolability of his person or of his residence.
4. The immunity of a diplomatic agent from the jurisdiction of the receiving State does not exempt
him from the jurisdiction of the sending State.

These buggers are either too stupid or just dont care.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 26 May 2011 15:50

ManjaM wrote:US throws rule book at India, says no immunity for diplomat family
Family members of the diplomats do carry diplomatic passports, he acknowledged but diplomatic immunity does not apply to them, he noted.
And the State department spokesman Mark Toner is lying. Here is why -
http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instru ... 1_1961.pdf

The relevant sections -
Article 37
1. The members of the family of a diplomatic agent forming part of his household shall, if they are
not nationals of the receiving State, enjoy the privileges and immunities specified in articles 29 to 36
What are articles 29-36
Article 31
1. A diplomatic agent shall enjoy immunity from the criminal jurisdiction of the receiving State.
He shall also enjoy immunity from its civil and administrative jurisdiction, except in the case of:
(a) A real action relating to private immovable property situated in the territory of the receiving State,
unless he holds it on behalf of the sending State for the purposes of the mission;
(b) An action relating to succession in which the diplomatic agent is involved as executor,
administrator, heir or legatee as a private person and not on behalf of the sending State;
(c) An action relating to any professional or commercial activity exercised by the diplomatic agent in
the receiving State outside his official functions.
2. A diplomatic agent is not obliged to give evidence as a witness.
3. No measures of execution may be taken in respect of a diplomatic agent except in the cases
coming under subparagraphs (a), (b) and (c) of paragraph 1 of this article, and provided that the
measures concerned can be taken without infringing the inviolability of his person or of his residence.
4. The immunity of a diplomatic agent from the jurisdiction of the receiving State does not exempt
him from the jurisdiction of the sending State.
These buggers are either too stupid or just don't care.

We should also publicly withdraw said privileges to amreki diplomat families on reciprocity grounds immediately. Will our dhoti wearing hero dare to do it?

Naaaa, he will just keep making erroneous lists and forget to take the responsibility.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 26 May 2011 15:54

We should simply start giving American diplomats and their families a somewhat hard time. How about throwing the brat of some American diplomat behind bars for eve-teasing or something!

The Americans will come to appreciate diplomatic immunity in no time!

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 26 May 2011 16:02

Raja Bose wrote:
VikramS wrote: On BRF people do get worked up with CCF because she is the most visible South Asian analyst out there. And she is really weird; uses foul language and in general tries too hard to get her point across.
Not to mention dresses like a behen-ji and looks like a Caucasian incarnation of Madame Jalebi (Phiki Jalebi).

She's trying to assume Stephen Cohen's mantle. Schaffer is past her sell by. CCF is building her brand differently but building it nonetheless. She's cottoned on to the fact that nobody reads research reports any more. Being ob FB,, Twitter etc gets her invites on TV and that in turn leads to tenure..+ book deals.

The more controversy she generates, the more Indians flock to her on the web to complain and thus more 'audience'.

Best to ignore her rants.

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 26 May 2011 16:03

Krittika Biswas detention case: Indian envoy to US Meera Shankar to brief Chidambaram
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/story ... 39404.html

On March 15, the school dropped all charges against Krittika, but they did not disclose that they had found the real culprit, her lawyer added.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 578152.cms

Why school and police are defending their acts?

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 26 May 2011 16:04

ManjaM wrote:US throws rule book at India, says no immunity for diplomat family

This young girl has been wrongly charged and mentally scarred - did the US spokesman have any words of apology on that or was his focus only on making the claim about diplomatic immunity ??

Need to export some civilization to this land of barbarians !

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 26 May 2011 16:09

The immunity issue aside,in all fairness NYPD is notorious for its heavy handedness . I remember 12 yr old Alexa Gonzalez case last summer when the kid was arrested,handcuffed and taken into custody for 'doodling' on her desk! ( am i glad i grew up in India! I have doodled so much in school days that i probably would have been handed a life sentence in massa!) . Although i would not go Paki on foreign diplomats and their families in India, it is about time GoI make some strong statements atleast. From George Fernandes search, to patting down of Kalam saab and more recently pat down of Meera Shankar, it is high time we show some spine atleast verbally.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 26 May 2011 16:32

Ambar wrote:Although i would not go Paki on foreign diplomats and their families in India, it is about time GoI make some strong statements atleast. From George Fernandes search, to patting down of Kalam saab and more recently pat down of Meera Shankar, it is high time we show some spine atleast verbally.

Ambar ji,

As far as respect for diplomatic immunity goes, every country, or at least every power is extremely sensitive about it and defends it with all possible means.

Protesting takes you only so far. One needs to teach the other what one's level of tolerance is. Usually if some country asks a diplomat to leave, there is a quick response from the other side too which also expels a similar number of diplomats. On the question of diplomatic immunity there is zero scope for accepting discrimination. India needs to to send the message which is unambiguous. It has to include harassment of some dependent of some American diplomat. Take someone into custody, and Americans will get the message loud and clear!

But if India vacillates here, these violations from the American side will continue. And mind you, these violations of dignity of Indian diplomats and their dependents, visiting Indian officials, etc. each one of these violations is used to drive in an American message into Indians - that it is not our aukat to stand up to them. We Indians understand the concept of aukat, but when it comes to relations with Western countries, often we set aside what we know from Indian society, and embrace the Westerners glibly and naively as morally superior societies where such concepts are not entertained.

Far from it, these are concepts with which one group shows to the other, that they are superior! Sometimes that message is given in a roundabout way of high-standing, and preaching about Indian poverty, and sometimes the message is delivered in a ham-handed way, like the Americans are doing with their molest and harass tactics.

The way to treat Westerners is with politeness and extraordinary firmness for any transgression either through critique or through retaliation.

arun · Post by **arun** » 26 May 2011 17:16

Speaking of US think tankers in particular Stephen Cohen ……………..

Stephen Cohen and Constantino Xavier on the existence of fundamental constraint to further improvement in bilateral relations namely “India’s commitment to strategic autonomy“.

Argues that the “commitment to strategic autonomy” caused the US to lose lost out on the MMRCA deal.

Concludes by saying that “instead of lamenting, soul-searching or—on the opposite extreme—demonizing New Delhi for decisions that are unfavorable to American interests, Washington needs to give the relationship time to mature and recognize that India’s profound concern with securing its strategic autonomy and self-reliance will continue to play a constraining role”.

Read it all in the National Interest:

U.S.-India Relationship on the Rocks?

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 26 May 2011 19:34

^^^
when it comes to India, US can't handle the fact that India wishes to remain independent. they just can't handle it. with other countries, they usually make obligatory statements like "respecting the views of so-and-so country and her people," but with India, they automatically expect us to become poodles!!!

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 26 May 2011 19:59

^

(Exceptions aside) It has something to do with the attitudes of Indian immigrants. They show too much prejudice towards their Indian roots/systems/culture when interacting with their counterparts. It creates such social perception at policy level too.

Hindu Indians rarely demand consideration for their culture, history, even territorial integrity of their nation in US social life. Everything goes as far as India is concerned. I got smirks and smiles from fellow Indians when I replaced an Indian map that showed China/Pak version with the official version in our cafeteria. They thought I was chauvinistic. (on the other hand, I was pleasantly surprised to see the correct version of Indian map in a Russian colleague's office and personally thanked him). Same goes with definition of culture, festivals and so on.. too much ignorance, lack of self-respect and apathy for Bharat.

On the other hand Muslims and Christians (even from India) do not hesitate to correct others on misconceptions. A female colleague of mine, who is a Malayali Christian, spent 30 minutes to explain that their ancestors were followers of saint Thomas and their marriage customs are different from catholics and protestents and their priests chant hymns from some Syrian bible and so on...

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 May 2011 03:01

Uneven Cohen et al don't realise the planes offered by US were watered down versions that didnt do the job. If the planes were a match there wouldn't be this discussion. Trying to sell sub-standard material didnt make the cut.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 27 May 2011 03:21

Cohen for once is coming clean. He cites EUMA, nuclear capability and related stuff to say India was right. Guess he's aiming for a few contributions from Indo-Americans for Brookings now that CCF is targeting the other segment

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 27 May 2011 03:38

There is suddenly a lot of clarity here after RD's post. Now we can neatly compartmentalize these foreign policy analysts and pick-apart their every move as we know that A is fighting pitched battles only against B for a certain type of 'market share' and so on.

Knowledge is really illuminating and empowering at the same time!

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 27 May 2011 04:41

Army Capt. Ranjan Singh gets MacArthur Award

The 24th annual ceremony served to recognize officers who display the leadership traits epitomized by Gen. MacArthur. Born and raised in San Jose, Calif., Singh is reportedly the first Indian American soldier to receive the honor in the history of the United States military.

AjitK · Post by **AjitK** » 27 May 2011 19:33

Business Over Security

Washington still hasn’t got over the disappointment over both American fighters competing in the Indian Air Force’s mega purchase of combat aircraft having been eliminated due to technical reasons. A meeting on Thursday between a top visiting US official and Defence Minister A K Antony on security matters focused more on the deal than on bilateral security interests. It is learnt that the US raised the disqualification of its aircraft at the meeting between US Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano and Antony. While Napolitano stuck to the brief, outgoing US Ambassador Timothy Roemer is learnt to have spoken at length on the contract and conveyed to the Indian side that Washington was not convinced that its aircraft are not technically sound. The US is also said to be peeved by the manner in which it was told about the disqualification. In fact, the US has been vocal on the issue for quite some time now, so much so that the Ministry of External Affairs has also pushed for a technical briefing with the two losing US companies.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 May 2011 19:40

They should have aaid Gen. MacArthur award in the headline.

MacArthur Foundation has the genius awards which Indians have won even from India.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 27 May 2011 20:00

US urges Green Card holders to become citizens
Hmmmm......why this campaign? To get votes in the elections?

UBanerjee · Post by **UBanerjee** » 27 May 2011 22:00

SwamyG wrote:US urges Green Card holders to become citizens
Hmmmm......why this campaign? To get votes in the elections?

Vote bank politics

Rupesh · Post by **Rupesh** » 28 May 2011 04:43

^^^
Unkil's coffers might be empty, they can collect a few billion through naturalization fees

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 28 May 2011 07:19

^^^
it is not vote bank politics. Indian population in US is too puny (quantitatively) to matter much. Unkil doesn't like the trend of Indians going back to their homeland. it is imperative that America maintain the image that Indians have to come to US to be successful. if that image is shattered and tech/science professionals are successful in India, then US myth is shattered.....as I said before, there is some deep seated narcissism.

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 28 May 2011 07:49

devesh wrote:^^^
it is not vote bank politics. Indian population in US is too puny (quantitatively) to matter much. Unkil doesn't like the trend of Indians going back to their homeland. it is imperative that America maintain the image that Indians have to come to US to be successful. if that image is shattered and tech/science professionals are successful in India, then US myth is shattered.....as I said before, there is some deep seated narcissism.

I think there is some deep seated narcissism in that post.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 28 May 2011 08:13

^^^
I share my narcissism with a group of 1.3 billion individuals. and am proud of it.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 28 May 2011 09:20

^^^

+ one to that.

sumishi · Post by **sumishi** » 28 May 2011 11:17

Ambar wrote:The immunity issue aside,in all fairness NYPD is notorious for its heavy handedness . I remember 12 yr old Alexa Gonzalez case last summer when the kid was arrested,handcuffed and taken into custody for 'doodling' on her desk! ( am i glad i grew up in India! I have doodled so much in school days that i probably would have been handed a life sentence in massa!) . .....

Be warned! Napolitano has discussed forging "ties" between massa homeland security and bharatiya domestic security apparatus. With the kind of poo-liss state massa is rapidly turning into under their homeland security, will it be goodye doodling here, and other things besides?

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 28 May 2011 12:06

>>With the kind of poo-liss state massa is rapidly turning into under their homeland security, will it be goodye doodling here, and other things besides?

Chill. We're safe not because our enlightened state doesn't want a police-state like power over us but because of its inability to impose one. Like in geopolitics, here too we need to watch out not for 'stated intentions' but 'deployed capabilities'. Only.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 28 May 2011 12:09

SwamyG wrote:US urges Green Card holders to become citizens
Hmmmm......why this campaign? To get votes in the elections?

This has been subtly going on for a while. Once I got a call from some USCIS female as to whether I wanted to learn more about becoming a shitty-zen when I became eligible. Unfortunately, she couldn't tell me about any benefits except saying I would get to vote and choose the most powerful man on earth and do jury duty (as if that is a benefit not a pain

) and "give back to my country of residence". I told her that I already give a big chunk of my earnings and knowledge to "my state and country of residence", ab kya bacche ki jaan logay?

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 28 May 2011 12:24

when it comes to India, US can't handle the fact that India wishes to remain independent. they just can't handle it. with other countries, they usually make obligatory statements like "respecting the views of so-and-so country and her people," but with India, they automatically expect us to become poodles!!!

Absolutely right @Devesh.

"Strategic Interests" mean Unkil's Strategy and his Interests. Time for them to stop paying lip service to "The largest democracy" and respect our freedom of choice.

Add to that, numerous statements from them that Military Aid given by them to Pakistan during CENTO, eviction of USSR from Afghanistan, and now on the War on Terror would not be used against us. Thier foreign ploicies have always been convoluted. And those arms were used against us. Not that, in my opinion, the IAF decision has been biased by history.

I firmly believe that the EF and Rafale were chosen on merit.

Economically, Unkil is bleeding with their debt over 1.5 Trillion dollars. And their narcissim is unfortunately preventing an otherwise fine citizenry from realising that their downslide is accelerating.

sumishi · Post by **sumishi** » 28 May 2011 12:44

Hari Seldon wrote:>>With the kind of poo-liss state massa is rapidly turning into under their homeland security, will it be goodye doodling here, and other things besides?

Chill. We're safe not because our enlightened state doesn't want a police-state like power over us but because of its inability to impose one. Like in geopolitics, here too we need to watch out not for 'stated intentions' but 'deployed capabilities'. Only.

How right!! Only!

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 28 May 2011 16:44

Raja Bose wrote:
SwamyG wrote:US urges Green Card holders to become citizens
Hmmmm......why this campaign? To get votes in the elections?
This has been subtly going on for a while. Once I got a call from some USCIS female as to whether I wanted to learn more about becoming a shitty-zen when I became eligible. Unfortunately, she couldn't tell me about any benefits except saying I would get to vote and choose the most powerful man on earth and do jury duty (as if that is a benefit not a pain ) and "give back to my country of residence". I told her that I already give a big chunk of my earnings and knowledge to "my state and country of residence", ab kya bacche ki jaan logay?

It may not apply to you but I'd check out the estate tax issue if you are not a citizen. Ask your tax accountant about this.

The campaign to convert green card holders to citizens has more to do with building a Hispanic power base than anything else.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 28 May 2011 16:47

devesh wrote:^^^
I share my narcissism with a group of 1.3 billion individuals. and am proud of it.

And where are you sharing it from: India or elsewhere? No offense, just curious.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 28 May 2011 17:12

Pratyush wrote:^^^

+ one to that.

+1

UBanerjee · Post by **UBanerjee** » 29 May 2011 00:26

devesh wrote:^^^
it is not vote bank politics. Indian population in US is too puny (quantitatively) to matter much. Unkil doesn't like the trend of Indians going back to their homeland. it is imperative that America maintain the image that Indians have to come to US to be successful. if that image is shattered and tech/science professionals are successful in India, then US myth is shattered.....as I said before, there is some deep seated narcissism.

Because Indians are the only green card holders in the US, am I right?

This is all aimed directly at India onlee to keep her down- that's some deep seated narcissism indeed!

Cosmo_R wrote: The campaign to convert green card holders to citizens has more to do with building a Hispanic power base than anything else.

Thank you.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 29 May 2011 01:16

Raja Bose wrote:
SwamyG wrote:US urges Green Card holders to become citizens
Hmmmm......why this campaign? To get votes in the elections?
This has been subtly going on for a while. Once I got a call from some USCIS female as to whether I wanted to learn more about becoming a shitty-zen when I became eligible. Unfortunately, she couldn't tell me about any benefits except saying I would get to vote and choose the most powerful man on earth and do jury duty (as if that is a benefit not a pain ) and "give back to my country of residence". I told her that I already give a big chunk of my earnings and knowledge to "my state and country of residence", ab kya bacche ki jaan logay?

The greatest benefit is travel/mobility and next is GoUSA will be behind you if you get caught for any ahem ahem activities

Watch out for tax issues

I escaped Jury Duty precisely because me still a desi citizen. I got the papers, so I called and let them know that me still not a citizen.

sheesh folks, how many even read the story? There are more Hispanics than Desi green-cards. 2012 elections are just 18 months away. And some party needs them Hispanics to go out and vote.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 29 May 2011 02:44

UBanerjee wrote:
devesh wrote:^^^
it is not vote bank politics. Indian population in US is too puny (quantitatively) to matter much. Unkil doesn't like the trend of Indians going back to their homeland. it is imperative that America maintain the image that Indians have to come to US to be successful. if that image is shattered and tech/science professionals are successful in India, then US myth is shattered.....as I said before, there is some deep seated narcissism.
Because Indians are the only green card holders in the US, am I right?

This is all aimed directly at India onlee to keep her down- that's some deep seated narcissism indeed!

Cosmo_R wrote: The campaign to convert green card holders to citizens has more to do with building a Hispanic power base than anything else.
Thank you.

the same idea applies to Hispanics. the increasing trend of Hispanics treating the US as a cross border earning opportunity is troublesome for US. in fact in the long term, this ca be very dangerous. the idea is to give enough incentives to immigrant groups (especially, Hispanics) to stay, and eventually future generations will be Americanized anyway.

as things stand now, especially in Southwest, Hispanics are feeling that it's just a few years' stay and then back to homeland. this means that new identity of America will never take hold in this group. this is what, the "green card to citizenship" push is hoping to deal with.

the same is the case with Indians or any other "influential" immigrant groups. vote bank politics has only a miniscule contribution to this push. it is the long term trends that are starting to take hold, which is worrying for America.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 29 May 2011 03:23

@Devesh^^^. I beg to disagree re: "Hispanics are feeling that it's just a few years' stay and then back to homeland. this means that new identity of America will never take hold in this group. this is what, the "green card to citizenship" push is hoping to deal with."

Mexicans and others are for the first time fleeing their countries because they are becoming Somalia/Pakistan. Ordinary villagers in Mexico are being kidnapped for ransom because they have a relative in the US who might be induced to pay.

Ecuador and Guatemala (to lesser extent Honduras and Mexico) have become MS-13 Waziristans. Google MS 13 and you'll see what I mean.

The days of Cesar Chavez and the grape pickers of Steinbeck are are long gone. These are increasingly refugees. Unlike the Pakis, Somalis and other Muslim ilk, the new crowd wants to assimilate, they know they have to ditch Spanish. Their sons and daughters are playing sports to get to get into Ivies--our Gardner's daughter just got into Harvard for her soccer skills. A guy from Colombia who does occasional carpentry for us saw his son get into NYU (full scholarship -- the first in his family to go to college.

By 2050, half of the US will of Hispanic origin. And they look more like us than the Boston Brahmins. America's identity will increasingly be defined by Hispanics. And, as long as it is not a Puerto Rican one I am content (sorry could not resist)