West Asia News and Discussions

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 27 May 2011 21:44

^

KSA will be laughed out of OIC soon after stripping it of the two holy masks.

The want to be the "leaders" of sunni bloc at the expense of Indian sub-continental muslim nations. Look at what they are asking. You all contribute and defeat shiaite Iran so I will be the leader. And what I have to offer? TFTA arabic racism.

And India wants to support these jokers? Just because KSA has money?

An easier way out would be to lead an alliance to invade KSA and make it a secular democracy.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 28 May 2011 13:04

IRAQ NOTEBOOK: Witches, Bollywood at grad party

REBECCA SANTANA, Associated Press
Updated 09:01 a.m., Tuesday, May 24, 2011

BAGHDAD (AP) — Harry Potter-inspired witches in flowing black satin gowns and pointed hats shimmied onstage as young warlocks in black-and-red capes looked on. Nearby, Indian-themed music blared from a boom box at a Baghdad version of a Bollywood movie set.

Fun and frivolity aren't the first things that come to mind when someone mentions Baghdad. But this is college graduation season and time for a tradition that has survived the upheaval of war, kidnappings and bombs: masquerade parties.

Students here like to party just like young people anywhere who've spent the last four or five years with their noses buried in a book.

And they like a good masquerade.

"We based our costumes on the movies we see. We started thinking of our outfits at the beginning of the year," said 23-year-old Shahad Rafaie, dressed as a witch with glitter sprinkled across her face and a black headscarf covering her hair and neck.

"We are exhausted after studying for five years!"

The overthrow of Saddam Hussein unleashed an outpouring of religious extremism from both Sunnis and Shiites that often left Iraqis wondering what was acceptable conduct and fearful of outward displays of celebration.

Liquor stores and restaurants serving alcohol were bombed. Women feared going out in the street without a headscarf if they went out at all. Plays, musicals and art exhibits were almost nonexistent.

But through it all Iraqi university students held onto one of the educational system's lesser known traditions: the end-of-the-year costume bash. Like the class photo, prom and final exams, the parties have become a Baghdad tradition over the past 10 years.

At a celebration Saturday at Baghdad University's College of Pharmacy, the party resembled a Baghdad-based Bollywood movie set, with female students dressed in brightly colored Indian-themed saris with gold embroidery and bangles on their wrists.

Nearby young men in burgundy-colored Sherwani jackets, yellow satin trousers and red turbans on their heads shimmied to the sound of Indian music with lyrics in Arabic.

Across the lawn, a coven of Harry Potter-inspired witches celebrated in matching costumes — the women in black satin dresses with collars and sleeves trimmed in red, pointy black hats and wooden canes substituting for broomsticks. The men wore black-and-red capes over red satin vests as fellow students danced and took photos.

Layla Tariq Mohammed said the graduates hired a tailor weeks ago to make the costumes.

One young man said they had tossed around the idea of dressing up as Mexican cowboys complete with sombreros and ponchos, or as U.S. Navy sailors, but the girls didn't go for the knee-length skirts.

There was not a drop of alcohol in sight, and instead of taking place under cover of darkness where furtive kisses or hand-holding might go unnoticed, the party was held at midmorning and on university grounds. Many family members sat on the sides watching.

"It's a very beautiful thing. It is fun. They want to express their joy," said Wafaq Jawad, 56, who came to watch her niece.

Still, it was surprisingly liberal: Many women did not wear the headscarves often worn by religious conservatives on Baghdad's streets and many of the students danced.

The parties aren't so popular with the administration, however. One student said the college dean banned their band from coming on campus and it took a series of negotiations before he permitted them to bring in a boom box.

"I don't think all the colleges like it, but they also can't do anything about it," said Haydar Ajib, a 25-year-old graduate.

The dean, who was at the party and mingled with the students, said a band wasn't appropriate for a university setting and he had offered to help the students find a club to hold their party if they insisted on a band.

Dr. Alaa A. Abdulrasool alluded to the social and religious norms the school must navigate when deciding what is appropriate and what is not. The students can celebrate and dress up but they must also be aware of the society in which they live, and the fact that it might not be as liberal as they are, he said.

He also pointed out that students from all over Iraq study at the college, including many who are more conservative than those dancing to the Bollywood tunes and it was important to make sure all felt included in the celebrations.

"In the last few years, they thought that freedom meant they could do anything they wanted," he said.

http://www.westport-news.com/living/art ... 392931.php

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 28 May 2011 15:31

Yesterday the Hariri militia (organized as the Internal Security Forces and its Intelligence Apparatus) took over a telecomms centre. There are suspicions that the Hariri is running a secret third telephone network from that building(backed by KSA), and may be involved in running a secret channel inside Syrian territory.

--------------------------------
Meanwhile....
G8 offers $20bn to aid Arab democracies

The G8 communique confirmed a new role in north Africa for the European Bank of Reconstruction and Development, which helped to rebuild former Soviet bloc countries over the last 20 years.

The World Bank, European Investment Bank and African Development Bank are among the bodies that will also pump money into the region. The International Monetary Fund says in a note requested by the G8 that oil importing Arab countries will need $160bn of external financing in the next three years.

Meanwhile Qatar has been talking to oil-rich Gulf partners about to creating a Middle East Development Bank to support Arab states in transitions to democracy.

“The changes under way in the Middle East and north Africa are historic and have the potential to open the door to the kind of transformation that occurred in central and eastern Europe after the fall of the Berlin Wall,” the G8 leaders proclaimed.

The communiqué offered similar support to Iran’s people if they pushed for reforms in their country, but made clear that the offer of western aid was contingent on genuine progress in the region towards democracy and open societies.

David Cameron, Britain’s prime minister, said before the G8 meeting in France: “The most powerful nations on earth have come together and are saying to all those in the Middle East and north Africa who want greater democracy, freedom and civil rights: we are on your side.”

However, the scale of the aid on offer is constrained by the fiscal situations at home in the G8 members: the US, Germany, France, Britain, Canada, Russia, Japan and Italy. Public opposition to aid programmes is hardening in some countries.

For example, Britain is offering help to the region of £110m ($180m) over four years, including £10m a year to promote democracy and help build new political parties – a figure not greatly in excess of the biggest bank bonuses in the City of London.

Earlier this week, Hamad bin Jassem, the Qatari prime minister, referred to a new Arab lending institution in a lecture at the Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies. “There is a multitude of reasons that justify the establishment of the Middle East Development Bank, including the lack of economic diversity, added to the high rate of unemployment among the youth sector,” he said. “Through this bank local resources and capabilities can be mobilised and foreign expertise can be solicited.”

Conservative monarchies of the Gulf have been uneasy about the spread of pro-democracy protests across the region, but they could be embarrassed if they stand back while the west takes steps to financially back democratic transitions.

This was on the cards a few days ago. Apparently some sources are quoting this to be $40bn!

So Qatar is the new KSA. Qatar is financing US/CIA joint missions. Very interesting indeed. The West is building up these democracies to eventually counter the autocratic GCC. GCC is backing the royalists and funding them to counter the Western plans to squeeze the GCC. Wow, this is going to be an interesting few years ahead. This is another reason why GCC integrated Morocco and Jordan.

Sheikh Hamad is playing everyone off trying to become an independent power. We live in a new arab world. Qatar is the new KSA. Turkey is the new Egypt.

14 Arab states to discuss Obama's speech and proposals in Doha today.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 28 May 2011 17:34

Indian school signs research agreements with Saudi universities

By MD RASOOLDEEN | ARAB NEWS

Published: May 25, 2011 23:51 Updated: May 25, 2011 23:51

RIYADH: Visiting Jamia Millia Islamia Vice Chancellor Najeeb Jung signed two memoranda of understanding for cooperation on education and research with King Saud University and Imam Muhammad bin Saud Islamic University.

Jamia Millia Islamia (JMI), an institution originally established at Aligarh in the United Provinces of India in 1920, became a central university by an act of the Indian Parliament in 1988.

Jung signed the agreement with KSU Rector Abdullah Al-Othman in the fields of engineering, IT and nanotechnology on Tuesday, while the memorandum of understanding (MOU) with the Imam Muhammad bin Saud Islamic University on joint research programs was signed with its rector Sulaiman Aba Al-Khail on Monday.

The visiting vice chancellor also called on the Riyadh Gov. Prince Salman and had discussions with Director General of King Abdulaziz Foundation for Research and Archives (DARAH) Fahad Abdullah Al-Shammari during his stay in the capital.

Zikrur Rahman, director of the India-Arab Cultural Center of JMI, and Hifzur Rahman from the Indian Embassy also took part in the discussions.

“We are happy to have signed a MOU with the KSU for higher education and research program in physics, information technology and nanotechnology,” Jung told Arab News on Wednesday. Under the agreement, he said, KSU will grant three scholarships for JMI students for master’s degrees and two more for doctorates in engineering, nanotechnology, physics, chemistry and information technology. He also said that the two parties agreed for the KSU to set up a chair for JMI on modern science and technology.

Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques King Abdullah was conferred an honorary doctorate during his visit to India in 2006, while Indian Premier Manmohan Singh received a similar honor from KSU during his visit to the Kingdom in March last year.

According to an agreement, DARAH would assign the India-Arab Cultural Center (IACC) of JMI to translate important books written in Arabic on the history and culture of the Kingdom into Indian languages, mainly Urdu, Hindi, Malayalam and English. DARAH would also seek the help of the IACC in the translation of books written in different Indian languages on the Arabian Peninsula, its traditions, culture, civilization and history into Arabic.

Currently, DARAH is engaged in the preparation of a Haj encyclopedia. Jung said JMI would help DARAH in collecting rare travelogues as well as manuscripts and publications on Haj and Umrah pilgrimage available in India, Nepal, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka.

In this regard it was decided that JMI would organize a two-day workshop on Haj on Nov. 30 and Dec. 1, 2011, for which around 20 scholars from India, Bangladesh, Nepal and Sri Lanka would be invited to present their papers.

DARAH is also considering the establishment of a research chair in the name of Prince Salman at JMI.

“It was a touching moment when Prince Salman mentioned an old saying popular among Saudis, which means, “India is yours and you would never lose anything while dealing with India,” Jung narrated about his 40-minute memorable discussion with the governor.

Prince Salman was conferred an honorary doctorate by JMI during his visit to New Delhi in April last year

Interesting views.
Saudi Arabia thinks Pakistan controls Taliban: WikiLeaks

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28/05/11 A cable sent by the American ambassador in Riyadh said that the Saudi officials made it clear to the United States that Pakistan would only accept the Afghan leadership which would accept Durand Line as an international border.

In January 2010, Saudi Interior Minister General Masoodi and special US envoy Barnett R Rubin met in Riyadh. Saudi officials were of the view that most of the warriors were grown up in Pakistan due to which Pakistan had control over them. However, most of Afghan Taliban want to end this control. Masoodi said that the Afghan Taliban group was weak at the moment and America should help it to make it strong because Pakistan and Iran were using most of the Taliban for their own benefit.

The Saudi general also told the US representative that there was a need to remove Pakistan’s reservations on Afghanistan, otherwise there would be grave consequences. He said that the presence of India in Afghanistan extremely displeased Pakistan. The Saudi general also said that there was no benefit of talks with Pakistani Taliban because they were dominated by Al Qaeda.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 28 May 2011 18:56

We get Arbaic culture and history as imports while sending out technical knowledge as exports. Nice, no wonder the Sauds are saying they have nothing to lose.

We are the suckers.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 28 May 2011 19:12

^^ they also have money, oil. Which we need both of.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 28 May 2011 19:17

shyamd wrote:^^ they also have money, oil. Which we need both of.

And apparently so badly that we are willing to trade for it for intangibles worth far more than money.

I was being charitable with the "suckers" comment I think.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 28 May 2011 19:50

^^ Eh?
They are investing in joint research. The Saudi's are paying for 3 students to do their masters in the sciences/engineering etc in KSA and also 2 to do their PhDs in one of the sciences/engineering subjects listed.

So its quite the opposite of what you said.

Then in a separate agreement they will essentially display historic accounts of Hajj trips from subcontinental muslims. Also:

According to an agreement, DARAH would assign the India-Arab Cultural Center (IACC) of JMI to translate important books written in Arabic on the history and culture of the Kingdom into Indian languages, mainly Urdu, Hindi, Malayalam and English. DARAH would also seek the help of the IACC in the translation of books written in different Indian languages on the Arabian Peninsula, its traditions, culture, civilization and history into Arabic.

So our books on history, culture will be translated to arabic. While their books on history and culture will be translated.

This sort of exchange is nothing new and has been going on for a while. They are working on historical, geographical and cultural relations between the countries in order to highlight the nature of relationship in a comprehensive manner.

For example with Oman: address the effects of Omani heritage in India, and Indian monuments discovered in Oman and the formation of working groups from both sides to carry out surveys on the effects associated with the Oman-India relations.

The participants recommended the establishment of a Sultan Qaboos Chair in one of the Indian universities to promote cultural studies and to deepen relations between Oman and India by promoting research that investigates all aspects of Indo-Oman relations.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 28 May 2011 22:16

shyamd wrote:^^ Eh?
They are investing in joint research. The Saudi's are paying for 3 students to do their masters in the sciences/engineering etc in KSA and also 2 to do their PhDs in one of the sciences/engineering subjects listed.

Of course...

So its quite the opposite of what you said.

Clearly the follow on implications are being missed. That is of tapping into the talent of scientific manpower in Indian establishment.

in order to highlight the nature of relationship in a comprehensive manner.

We are all aware of the nature of the relationship in a comprehensive manner, the issue is its promotion.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 28 May 2011 22:18

shyamd wrote:^^ they also have money, oil. Which we need both of.

India cannot accept any kind of radical education such as salafi from KSA. India has to controll all foriegn education inside India.

You line of thiking is not what India needs. Indian interest are supreme and junk cannot be accepted

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 28 May 2011 22:32

Sanku wrote: Clearly the follow on implications are being missed. That is of tapping into the talent of scientific manpower in Indian establishment.

LOL! Can I ask you, which country do you live in and do you work for any of the IT companies?

We are all aware of the nature of the relationship in a comprehensive manner, the issue is its promotion.

[/quote]
If we are all aware of the nature of relations, then tell us whats wrong with its promotion?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 28 May 2011 22:40

shyamd wrote:^^ they also have money, oil. Which we need both of.

This is pure BS ShyamD ji. We need oil and we buy it from these countries. Nothing comes for free.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 28 May 2011 22:45

Acharya wrote:
shyamd wrote:^^ they also have money, oil. Which we need both of.
India cannot accept any kind of radical education such as salafi from KSA. India has to controll all foriegn education inside India.

You line of thiking is not what India needs. Indian interest are supreme and junk cannot be accepted

KSA is poison evy, Touch it at one's own peril. Agree with Acharya.

We pay the price and get the oil.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 28 May 2011 22:45

Acharya wrote:
shyamd wrote:^^ they also have money, oil. Which we need both of.
India cannot accept any kind of radical education such as salafi from KSA. India has to controll all foriegn education inside India.

The education research is scientific in nature and bares no relation to religion. There is a significant indian representation among the top guys in those KSA institutions (I know one of them). The Saudi's have been coming to India for education for a very long time. In fact one of key signings during MMS visit was for more saudi students to study in India. Isn't this a great chance to allow them exposure to indic ideas and influences?

Most sunni's are salafist by the way. What you may be refering to is takfiri (the western press confuses this with Salafist). We have not signed anything religious, just an exchange of history, hajj pilgrimages experiences of subcontinental muslims. It will be displayed in libraries in the Kingdom and India.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 28 May 2011 22:47

shyamd wrote: Isn't this a great chance to allow them exposure to indic ideas and influences?

Start with accepting Indian religions in KSA first

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 28 May 2011 22:55

RamaY wrote:
shyamd wrote:^^ they also have money, oil. Which we need both of.
This is pure BS ShyamD ji. We need oil and we buy it from these countries. Nothing comes for free.

Of course nothing is for free. They initiated this relationship, not us. We need money for our infrastructure development and growth (very few countries have money at the moment). We need their cooperation on TSP, security issues (as has been reported several PFI individuals have been arrested, terror suspects extradited to name a few), we are working on joint oil storage plans and much more for oil and gas (to provide us with energy security), expat remmittances etc, they have expressed an interest to purchase our equipment and conduct joint training. Our relations with them are also due to PRC and strategic reasons.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 28 May 2011 22:57

Acharya wrote: Start with accepting Indian religions in KSA first

Do you think this is possible without maintaining positive relations with them first? Its only due to our good relations that we have embarked on the road to achieve such things. You also have to appreciate the people are incredibly conservative - the govt is slowly trying to open up. They are launching women uni's. In fact the leadership often narrate the story where the people wereagainst womens education in the 70s, the King at the time took the decision against the people to open up to womens education. You have to be patient and work with them.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 28 May 2011 22:57

Good reply

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 28 May 2011 23:07

^^ Its only after King Abdullah came to power, that he opened up relations with India. Before they saw us under the Paki lense.

Today, In private they are telling us that they agree with our position on TSP. KSA was delivering snubs to Pak regularly up until the recent crisis.

The UAE is delivering stapled visas for PoK visitors (including the puppet PM of PoK! Can you imagine the H&D blow)! Are we doing that to Tibetans? Do you think all this is possible without talking to them?

Recently it also came to light that KSA had provided info on 26/11 suspect which led to his arrest.

Oman for example is backing Baloch movements in occuppied balochistan. This is just to name a few.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 28 May 2011 23:31

shyamd wrote
So our books on history, culture will be translated to arabic. While their books on history and culture will be translated.

This sort of exchange is nothing new and has been going on for a while. They are working on historical, geographical and cultural relations between the countries in order to highlight the nature of relationship in a comprehensive manner.

For example with Oman: address the effects of Omani heritage in India, and Indian monuments discovered in Oman and the formation of working groups from both sides to carry out surveys on the effects associated with the Oman-India relations.

Yes there will be no problems here - because the officially India approved and eminent-Indian-historian-approved texts only sing the glory of how beneficial, peaceful, and India-enriching Arabia and Islamic Arabic culture has been. No H&D problems for KSA, and nothing that goes against the regime theology and propaganda.

For Arabia and the gulf region, can there be any "Indian" "monuments" before advent of Islam in the period of "Jahillya"? For that matter is there any history of Arabia for KSA before the advent of Islam? Isnt that all a period of darkness? Moreover "archeological" elements have reportedly been destroyed to prevent "iconification" and "idolatry" - reportedly even about items hailing from the founding fathers? [a primary source of criticism of "Ottoman" displays!].

So say - that it is primarily about Islamic and post-foundation records of interaction with subcontinental Islam and Islamic Arabia that is going to be funded for "academic" purposes! One more flag in the propaganda of the oh-so-peaceful Arab merchant who peacefully came to western Indian coasts and settled peacefully - and whose piety drove thousands of Kafir to convert and make the Hajj and enrich the peninsula with Indian money spent in pilgrimage. [Nothing to be ridiculed - since at least the founder of the current kingdom is supposed to have planned to sustain his kingdom initially based on exactly such a pilgrim based income, hence his early stress on capturing the site - no oil was envisaged at that time].

The participants recommended the establishment of a Sultan Qaboos Chair in one of the Indian universities to promote cultural studies and to deepen relations between Oman and India by promoting research that investigates all aspects of Indo-Oman relations.

Chairs in Indian universities for "research" on Arab-India relations therefore will mean given the anathema of the pre-Muslim Jahilya, and given the pre-existing slavishness to reconstructing a mythic peaceful "conversion" at Arab hands of India in regime supported eminent historians of India - greater dissemination and establishment of a dogma of Arab beneficence for historic Indian culture.

A "tremendously" "growing" Indian economy cannot be sooo dependent and sooo desperate to get KSA money! Or is it something else? Is it hoped for that such money will also help fill in the holes created in much needed funds for running a party?

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 29 May 2011 03:36

^^^
our leadership is consciously allowing decadent and blatantly false "truths" to become even more entrenched in the Indian psyche. the present Sonia regime is implementing one policy after another that can only lead to delusions and disenchantment from Bharat's history....and we have forumers saying how it is all normal and usual. all those Arab books which will be translated into Hindi, what do they contain? info about how Islam has been beneficial to the world and especially India???

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 29 May 2011 04:02

^^^^
agree with shyamd
our trading centres and indic power/influences since many 1000s years goes into the middle east and beyond.
we have to build relations to get back the power and influences.
No question of sitting back in our land, shivering in our dhotis, waiting for others to come to us.

we venture out make treaties, embark on cultural, trade ithyadi.
We have to learn from our past and not repeat mistakes.
Indic influence shall rise to the benefit of everyone. It is slow sustained and inevitable.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 29 May 2011 04:08

^^^
I have learned that this commentary of "inevitable" is dangerous. there is no such thing as inevitable. "inevitable" only exists in hindsight, after the event has passed. before it happens, there is no such thing.

this deal does not increase Indic influences. it increases Arab Islamic influence in India and propagates blatant falsehoods. if GoI simultaneously promotes books to be translated which have some grain of truth to them, then yes, it would be spreading Indic influence. otherwise, it's nothing but the entrenchment and propagation of Marxist history of India.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 29 May 2011 04:21

devesh wrote:^^^
I have learned that this commentary of "inevitable" is dangerous. there is no such thing as inevitable. "inevitable" only exists in hindsight, after the event has passed. before it happens, there is no such thing.

this deal does not increase Indic influences. it increases Arab Islamic influence in India and propagates blatant falsehoods. if GoI simultaneously promotes books to be translated which have some grain of truth to them, then yes, it would be spreading Indic influence. otherwise, it's nothing but the entrenchment and propagation of Marxist history of India.

One deal will not increase indic influences, it is a continuum for more to come. It is always 2 way traffic. you take some and they take some. If arabic influences come to India, our influences also goes there.
even without this deal, many Indians( kuffr variety) are in middle east contributing there in more ways than one can think of. Many in middle east know about India a lot. How come there is no talk of arabic influence.

Marxist history in India will not last long,with more people getting info from more than a set of books/websites.
India being a free country, falsehoods may survive for sometime, not all the time.

You may be right about 'inevitable' but I firmly believe in Indic influence being slow sustained and inevitable.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 29 May 2011 04:27

krisna, you are speaking in very broad terms. let' stick to this particular deal. exactly what kind of info will be there in those Arab texts being translated into Hindi? and we all know what info is contained in official GoI sanctioned history books of India...

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 29 May 2011 04:45

devesh wrote:krisna, you are speaking in very broad terms. let' stick to this particular deal. exactly what kind of info will be there in those Arab texts being translated into Hindi? and we all know what info is contained in official GoI sanctioned history books of India...

I am speaking in broad terms only.
every thing starts from a small beginning.

whatever GOI printed books have is more than the KSA have- that itself is a beginning.
of course we being free for long, want more truth and not less.

we have to be careful in how we do our job.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 29 May 2011 04:53

brihaspati wrote:
Yes there will be no problems here - because the officially India approved and eminent-Indian-historian-approved texts only sing the glory of how beneficial, peaceful, and India-enriching Arabia and Islamic Arabic culture has been. No H&D problems for KSA, and nothing that goes against the regime theology and propaganda.

The whole point of the exercise is to build relations. End of story. And btw they are researching about the Indian influence on the arab peninsula also, which means we are discovering the Indian roots. Qatar and Oman have discovered Indian artefacts and are reported in national papers. This research will tell us more about the Indian past in the peninsula. Get over the paranoia.

For Arabia and the gulf region, can there be any "Indian" "monuments" before advent of Islam in the period of "Jahillya"? For that matter is there any history of Arabia for KSA before the advent of Islam? Isnt that all a period of darkness? Moreover "archeological" elements have reportedly been destroyed to prevent "iconification" and "idolatry" - reportedly even about items hailing from the founding fathers? [a primary source of criticism of "Ottoman" displays!].

Lets see what it comes up with before we issue rhetoric.

So say - that it is primarily about Islamic and post-foundation records of interaction with subcontinental Islam and Islamic Arabia that is going to be funded for "academic" purposes! One more flag in the propaganda of the oh-so-peaceful Arab merchant who peacefully came to western Indian coasts and settled peacefully - and whose piety drove thousands of Kafir to convert and make the Hajj and enrich the peninsula with Indian money spent in pilgrimage. [Nothing to be ridiculed - since at least the founder of the current kingdom is supposed to have planned to sustain his kingdom initially based on exactly such a pilgrim based income, hence his early stress on capturing the site - no oil was envisaged at that time].

Okay. So your idea of building relations is getting them to say sorry. We should do that with the British too and the US for 1971. Only if they say sorry we should develop trade with them and maintain relations.

Chairs in Indian universities for "research" on Arab-India relations therefore will mean given the anathema of the pre-Muslim Jahilya, and given the pre-existing slavishness to reconstructing a mythic peaceful "conversion" at Arab hands of India in regime supported eminent historians of India - greater dissemination and establishment of a dogma of Arab beneficence for historic Indian culture.

Lets wait for it before we judge the meaning of it.

A "tremendously" "growing" Indian economy cannot be sooo dependent and sooo desperate to get KSA money! Or is it something else? Is it hoped for that such money will also help fill in the holes created in much needed funds for running a party?

So we are growing. We don't need money to support our growth. By this definition we don't need trade relations with the West. Afterall it is the US that threatened to nuke us in 1971, British who ruled us and killed several people. Yes, lets isolate ourselves, trade barriers up against the west! Great idea.

French in India were exporting christianity. Lets not buy the rafale and cut relations. The french are secretly trying to christianise India. We should cut relations with them.
Portuguese were doing experiments with Indians historically. Lets cut trade and relations with them.
Russian orthodox christian leader called Lord Krishna evil. The Archbishop further requested the Mayor to ban construction of the proposed Krishna temple in Moscow saying it would otherwise become "an idolatrous disgrace erected for the glory of wicked and malicious 'god' Krishna". Now thats it Russia, you are getting it too - cut relations with them. Sell our MKIs.
Iranians - invaded india historically. Thats it they are getting it too, lets cut relations. Who cares about afghanistan, they have yeevil intentions about India too. Doesn't matter about our interests on oil & gas and protection against PRC and our interests in Central asia (they are bulldozing hindu temples there anyway). Lets get these guys to say sorry first.

The list can go on and on.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 29 May 2011 05:28

shyamd wrote:
brihaspati wrote:
Yes there will be no problems here - because the officially India approved and eminent-Indian-historian-approved texts only sing the glory of how beneficial, peaceful, and India-enriching Arabia and Islamic Arabic culture has been. No H&D problems for KSA, and nothing that goes against the regime theology and propaganda.
The whole point of the exercise is to build relations. End of story.

You need to change the posting style. Here you need to sell India to them and not sell KSA to Indians. Then lot of what you are saying will make sense to many

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 29 May 2011 05:52

^

+1

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 29 May 2011 05:58

^^ That is exactly what I was getting at. People chose to focus on KSa to India due to whatever insecurities that they have and people fail to see the otherside as you have quite rightly suggested.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 29 May 2011 08:17

shyamd wrote:
brihaspati wrote:
Yes there will be no problems here - because the officially India approved and eminent-Indian-historian-approved texts only sing the glory of how beneficial, peaceful, and India-enriching Arabia and Islamic Arabic culture has been. No H&D problems for KSA, and nothing that goes against the regime theology and propaganda.
The whole point of the exercise is to build relations. End of story. And btw they are researching about the Indian influence on the arab peninsula also, which means we are discovering the Indian roots. Qatar and Oman have discovered Indian artefacts and are reported in national papers. This research will tell us more about the Indian past in the peninsula. Get over the paranoia.

I dont think I dubbed you personally anything for your apparent support of the current pax-Indo-Arabica initiative. Why the gratuitous personal dig?

But in case this seems like a paranoia - and if you do not mistrust the "Hindu" wikipee [Its only the name of the publication- in case you are paranoid about the word!] - just a few years ago GOI seems to have been paranoid too:
http://www.thehindu.com/news/the-india- ... 547976.ece

8. (C) India also remained concerned that Saudi funding for religious schools and organizations contributed to extremism in both India and Pakistan. ""Indian Islam is a tolerant Islam, and we cannot abide by the spread of extremist views."" The GOI remains concerned about charitable contributions from Saudi sources to South Asia.

Have you raised this paranoia issue with your supposed contacts in the strategic circles?

For Arabia and the gulf region, can there be any "Indian" "monuments" before advent of Islam in the period of "Jahillya"? For that matter is there any history of Arabia for KSA before the advent of Islam? Isnt that all a period of darkness? Moreover "archeological" elements have reportedly been destroyed to prevent "iconification" and "idolatry" - reportedly even about items hailing from the founding fathers? [a primary source of criticism of "Ottoman" displays!].
Lets see what it comes up with before we issue rhetoric.

Oh yes, we have several authors [Pasha would be an example] putting out on millenial level contact. But the major thrust is on post advent Islamic contact, and the main research is still on trade links. Does also focusing on the Arabian peninsula as a whole rankle so much - because it brings in aspects of the Gulf that better be kept below the radar - by focusing only on Oman?

So say - that it is primarily about Islamic and post-foundation records of interaction with subcontinental Islam and Islamic Arabia that is going to be funded for "academic" purposes! One more flag in the propaganda of the oh-so-peaceful Arab merchant who peacefully came to western Indian coasts and settled peacefully - and whose piety drove thousands of Kafir to convert and make the Hajj and enrich the peninsula with Indian money spent in pilgrimage. [Nothing to be ridiculed - since at least the founder of the current kingdom is supposed to have planned to sustain his kingdom initially based on exactly such a pilgrim based income, hence his early stress on capturing the site - no oil was envisaged at that time].
Okay. So your idea of building relations is getting them to say sorry. We should do that with the British too and the US for 1971. Only if they say sorry we should develop trade with them and maintain relations.

Did I say I want them to say sorry?

Chairs in Indian universities for "research" on Arab-India relations therefore will mean given the anathema of the pre-Muslim Jahilya, and given the pre-existing slavishness to reconstructing a mythic peaceful "conversion" at Arab hands of India in regime supported eminent historians of India - greater dissemination and establishment of a dogma of Arab beneficence for historic Indian culture.
Lets wait for it before we judge the meaning of it.

Sure! But we can always project given that no alternative to the "history" of peaceful "Sufi" [denounced as part of two major sects in Saudi texts] India-Arab relations as claimed by our eminent historians - has been allowed from Indian side. Do the pro-GCC Indian strategic circles see any radical departure from such representations by our eminent historians in the foreseeable future? Maybe the latter can be instructed by relevant political authorities to change the line? But will striking contrary notes be beneficial for economic largesse - I mean we would be even more required not to say things that hurts Arab sentiments - for business sake at least?

A "tremendously" "growing" Indian economy cannot be sooo dependent and sooo desperate to get KSA money! Or is it something else? Is it hoped for that such money will also help fill in the holes created in much needed funds for running a party?
So we are growing. We don't need money to support our growth. By this definition we don't need trade relations with the West. Afterall it is the US that threatened to nuke us in 1971, British who ruled us and killed several people. Yes, lets isolate ourselves, trade barriers up against the west! Great idea.

French in India were exporting christianity. Lets not buy the rafale and cut relations. The french are secretly trying to christianise India. We should cut relations with them.
Portuguese were doing experiments with Indians historically. Lets cut trade and relations with them.
Russian orthodox christian leader called Lord Krishna evil. The Archbishop further requested the Mayor to ban construction of the proposed Krishna temple in Moscow saying it would otherwise become "an idolatrous disgrace erected for the glory of wicked and malicious 'god' Krishna". Now thats it Russia, you are getting it too - cut relations with them. Sell our MKIs.
Iranians - invaded india historically. Thats it they are getting it too, lets cut relations. Who cares about afghanistan, they have yeevil intentions about India too. Doesn't matter about our interests on oil & gas and protection against PRC and our interests in Central asia (they are bulldozing hindu temples there anyway). Lets get these guys to say sorry first.
The list can go on and on.

Well yes the list can indeed go on! By the Portuguese, French, British, Russian Orthodox - if you mean respective dominant theological establishments and followers - they add up to around 2.5% of the total Indian population. Whereas with the Arab connection - it is about 14% or perhaps even more. Except some Naga/Mizo militancy with personal Christian religious affiliation we do not yet have cases of "Christian militancy/extremism" in multiple corners of India claiming to establish "Christian-istan" by overthrowing the Indian state as an objective. With the faith in connection to the Arab world, we have obvious examples.

Does doing and increasing trade with Russia require our top legislative postholders shake hands with and entertain at a dinner the keeper of the relics of the most holy sites of the Russian Orthodox Church? Even after overthrow of the "Godless" soviets, and Putin attending Orthodox ceremonies - I thought we did not need to do what we did to As Sudais! Or is it a state secret? We similarly do not need to do so with similar level clerics of the Anglican Church [of course the the head may visit us in the near future - but there will be a good excuse - for the head will also be the head of state!]. The French and Portuguese mostly follow the Catholic - but the Pope is a head of state in his own right - so even that is covered. It seems we can do business with these countries without having to entertain their purely theological functionaries by Indian functionaries at the elected, rashtryia level.

Didnt know that facilitating such theological functionaries to resolve internal disputes of "patriotic" followers of such theologies in patriotic Indian institutions was also necessary so far in our trade relations with the French, Brits, Portuguese and Russians!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 May 2011 08:21

Guys easy there.

Shyamd has always looked at West Asia thru Indian eyes.

So lets not bet up the messenger for news we dont like.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 29 May 2011 08:27

Does differing from the messenger mean "paranoid" and "insecure" and "un-Indian"?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 May 2011 08:30

One can differ but can it be on the message and not the messenger?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 29 May 2011 08:42

I differed from the message and was instructed to get over my "paranoia" and also dubbed as part of the group that differs as having personal "insecurities". I will edit out my response in kind.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 May 2011 08:47

Thanks. Lets not have blue on blue.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 29 May 2011 16:53

Acharya wrote:
shyamd wrote: The whole point of the exercise is to build relations. End of story.
You need to change the posting style. Here you need to sell India to them and not sell KSA to Indians. Then lot of what you are saying will make sense to many

How?
I am curious to know exactly what and which "India" is being packaged to be sold to the Gulf?
(1) India as financial investment destination
(2) India as largest Muslim population country in "South Asia"
(3) India as a culture which was "reformed" and "tremendously enriched" by Arab Islam
(4) India as a culture whose historical narrative is mesmerized by the Hajj experience
(5) India as the host of Darul Ulum Nadyad [obsessed with Arabic and Arab-Islamism in South Asia] and Darul Ulum Deoband [which needs Saudi clerical guidance to settle internal conflicts] both of which openly declare their intention of eventually Islamizing India.
(6) India as being ruled by a regime which will actively protect Islamism and Islamic proselytization and therefore a theological-expansion-investment destination
[the tie up of Wahabis and the monarchies is so strong that the theologians always seem to be able to extract allowances to fund and proselytize as part of any economic largesse deal with foreign nations].

Can we have the financial investments minus the theologians and their ideological and institutional tentacles? Or we will be asked by the "relations building" exercise by our over-zealous "strategic" circles to shut up because otherwise the "investments" will be jeopardized?

What is being represented here as an overwhelming support within the rashtryia establishment for this current round of pax-Indo-Arabica - is actually just one factional view. The establishment is not unanimous over this, it is happening more under a particular political factional insistence, and there are severe dissensions.

The "Hindu" leaked wikipee quote actually contains a few lines towards the end which may indicate the pressures that are being brought on politically as part of a larger global line to keep the Saudis in line. It just happened to coincide with that part of Indian polity's line that sees more profits, political and financial, in allowing Arabic Islam to spread further on the subcontinent. It is the last line of defense against domestic political enemies seen as majoritarian.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 29 May 2011 17:48

Brihaspati ji, I'll desist from replying to your post. Its easily rebuttable with the comments already posted. I'll leave it at that.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 29 May 2011 18:06

None of your comments address the significance of the necessity of the dinner party with As Sudais [something we do not seem to need with other nations]. None of your comments clarify the exact nature of the historical interpretation of archeology and their period. None of your comments address the concerns about mechanisms by which Saudi theological spread in IM institutions have expanded. None of your comments "clarify" as to what exactly is going to be the representation of India and its culture on the Gulf cultural and educational side as mediated by the Gulf ruling regimes. [Don't raise the Bollywood angle please - they have mostly Muslim male leads against mostly Kaffir women - and never ever any negative portrayal of Islam or Islamism - so no Arab H&D problem]. Is the fact that India has remained largely non-Muslim and has a much longer, richer and larger pre-Islamic and non-Muslim component - going to be truthfully allowed to be represented in the Gulf educational and cultural narrative? You have not clarified - but simply asked us to "wait" and "see".

Quote some of the archeology papers, and I will be able to take up from there. Also please post some plans from the GOI and strategic circles as to concrete steps taken to check Gulf flow of funds and theologians - except pious propaganda that increase of trade will at some point somehow make the Saudis feel guilty about their theological and Jihadi connections.

Historical precedence shows that as far as the Arabs are concerned, increasing volumes of trade did not prevent eventual religious "conquests" - and in fact went on hand in hand. Exactly as now, ruling regimes then sucked up to Arab sourced proselytizers ostensibly on the "trade relations" logic. Arab Muslim buisnessmen appear to have always made it a point to use "trade" to sponsor and support Islamic institutions on Indian soil. Those were almost always in regions around which later Islamic power centres grew up.

anmol · Post by **anmol** » 29 May 2011 20:11

India pledges support for Palestine
P. S. Suryanarayana

‘India welcomes the recent reconciliation agreement between Fatah and Hamas on the West Bank and Gaza'

India has affirmed a “continuing commitment to Palestine” and voiced support for “the Palestinian people's struggle for a sovereign, independent, viable, and united State of Palestine.”

Addressing the Non-aligned Movement (NAM) Committee on Palestine in Bali, Minister of State for External Affairs, E. Ahamed, said: “India welcomes the recent reconciliation agreement between Fatah and Hamas on the West Bank and Gaza.”

The NAM panel on Palestine was convened on the occasion of the movement's 50th anniversary meeting in the Indonesian island-resort. A parallel three-day NAM ministerial meeting and the commemorative event were declared open by Indonesian President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono.

At the panel session, Mr. Ahamed spelt out India's emphatic endorsement of the Palestinian struggle for a “united State of Palestine, with East Jerusalem as its capital, living within secure and recognised borders – side by side and at peace with Israel.”

He recounted that India's stand was in sync with the Arab Peace Initiative on this issue, the Quartet Roadmap, and the relevant United Nations Security Council Resolutions.

Expressing the “hope” that the recent Fatah-Hamas reconciliation accord “would lead to peace and stability in the region,” he said India wanted an “end to the illegal Israeli settlements in the occupied Palestinian territories.” Reaffirming India's call for “an early and significant easing of restrictions on the free movement of persons and goods in Palestine,” he noted that the blockade on Gaza was adversely affecting the population there.

Tracing New Delhi's “deep association” with the Palestinian cause, dating back to a timeline before India gained Independence, Mr. Ahamed described the commitment to Palestine as “a central feature of India's foreign policy.” Down the memory avenue, one could not miss India's recognition of the State of Palestine in 1988, acknowledgment of Palestine Liberation Organisation as the sole and legitimate representative of the Palestinian people, and New Delhi's initial vote against the partition of Palestine, he pointed out.

In a detailed intervention, Mr. Ahamed outlined India's more recent material assistance to the Palestine National Authority since 1996.

Earlier this year, New Delhi allocated $10 million for this purpose, signifying the same level of contribution as in the previous year. India's annual contribution towards the U.N. programmes for Palestinian refugees was recently raised to $1 million.

At the plenary session of the commemorative conference, Mr. Ahamed suggested that NAM play a role in shaping a multi-polar global order in which the developing countries would have a qualitatively significant voice.

Is this in our interest ? Aren't we setting precedent, which gives credence to certain nations/peoples support for Kashmiri Separatist's demands ?