Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 25 May 2011 13:29

Gaur,
It's not how they look. Since when has BR been fixated with looks of things that dont fly and do acrobatic maneuvers, hainji?

The problem was the claims by EME about the 'cutting edge' development being done by them and showcasing Huffy & Tuffy as shining examples. While they suffice for their intended jobs duties, Huffy & Tuffy are a little more than tricked out Gypsys with armour plating and hence nothing cutting edge about it.

As for me, I believe that naming them Huffy & Tuffy reflects the seriousness of IA about the cutting edge R&D

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 May 2011 14:01

Marut wrote: The problem was the claims by EME about the 'cutting edge' development being done by them and showcasing Huffy & Tuffy as shining examples.

Er here is a discussion that his highly pisko-worthy. Cutting edge for EME is one thing - but when we elites here the words "cutting edge" we are usually thinking Amrika or Yooroap. In fact we don't even think China, and certainly don't think of our own country as a possibility. For us cutting edge is somewhere outside, mostly west and when that edge is not visible we mock.

JMT

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 25 May 2011 15:15

Marut, RahulM,
Thanks for the info.

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 25 May 2011 16:18

Shiv,

You are entitled to your view but I feel you are seeing piskology when none exists. Huffy, Tuffy & Windy are not cutting edge but that doesn't mean I deride them for being backwards or anything. There was a need which was fulfilled by these vehicles and EME produced them at the least cost and effort to meet the requirements. This was the Indian jugaad in action and should definitely be encouraged. But what gets my goat (all 72 of them) is the claim of cutting edge work being done in EME? As much as the cutting edge will differ in US, EU, India or China, there has to be an aspiration to meet the nationally accepted level of cutting edge R&D. If you can flag my piskology for cutting edge research, then shouldn't EME also be flagged for lacking aspiration to raise the bar for themselves. They don't need to gold plate these products but let's not perpetuate their misconceptions about their cutting edge R&D prowess. There's plenty of cutting edge research being done in India itself which can be looked upto by EME, if they so desire.

Marten,

Huffy, Tuffy & Windy are innovative enough, so claiming otherwise is wrong. But calling out the 'cutting edge R&D' canard is fair game

jimmy_moh · Post by **jimmy_moh** » 25 May 2011 16:26

jimmy_moh wrote:Army is conducting the recruitment rallies right.. this is mainly for filling which ranks..?.. i mean they will taken as sepoy or something else.... and when comparing to other countries recruitment for the same rank.. what is their procedure like if we compare with US,russia and chineese...

bump

abhinavjo · Post by **abhinavjo** » 25 May 2011 21:26

I have always wondered What EXACTLY is the job of Indian Navy's Observer corp?....and please dont say observing [:p]

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 May 2011 21:49

jimmy_moh wrote:
jimmy_moh wrote:Army is conducting the recruitment rallies right.. this is mainly for filling which ranks..?.. i mean they will taken as sepoy or something else.... and when comparing to other countries recruitment for the same rank.. what is their procedure like if we compare with US,russia and chineese...
bump

PBOR. jawans, not sepoys.

I dunno about other countries but I guess they have similar procedures. russia however has conscription i.e compulsory military service. (they are trying to change but not with much success) and china has a semi-conscription. each political district or equivalent has a quota to fulfill and the local party bosses picks up the poor sods whose family and parents don't have money or influence and send them to the army.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 25 May 2011 21:58

jimmy_moh wrote:
jimmy_moh wrote:Army is conducting the recruitment rallies right.. this is mainly for filling which ranks..?.. i mean they will taken as sepoy or something else.... and when comparing to other countries recruitment for the same rank.. what is their procedure like if we compare with US,russia and chineese...
bump

Have only a rough idea so others can correct where necessary. Recruitment Rallies are for PBOR entry.
However, the topic is a very broad one.
The modes of entry and the qualification required differ greatly as per the case. Some modes of entries are:
Soldier GD, Soldier technical, Soldier Nursing Assistant, Soldier Tradesman, JCO RT (for religious purposes), JCO (Catering), HAV (AEC). Even now, I think I may have misses one or two.

Recruitment procedure would obviously different across all the above entry modes. Eg: For soldier (including Tech & NA) there is a Physical Fitness Test, a written exam (a relatively simple one) and a thorough Medical Exam.

Regarding the comparison with other Armies, I have no idea.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 May 2011 22:03

gaur, I think specialist PBORs are mostly recruited separately by putting ads in newspapers. I distinctly remember seeing ads for religious duties and possibly a couple of others too.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 25 May 2011 22:05

^^
Yes, you are correct about that. As I said, there are different modes of entries. Different entries require different qualification.
Eg: Soldier Tech entry (basically for clerks) require 10+2 with PCM and English whereas Soldier GD require only 10 pass. So, the recruitment would obviously be held separately. Like in my previous post, I mentioned written exam. I know that applies to Soldier Tech and NA but I am not too sure about Soldier GD.

gokulvarmank · Post by **gokulvarmank** » 25 May 2011 22:40

Is there any section gives information on territorial army? I did a search on the forum and nothing much comes out.

Is there any one here who is a member of Territorial Army?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 May 2011 05:07

there's a thread about career in forces, you will get the info there.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 May 2011 05:47

Marut wrote:If you can flag my piskology for cutting edge research, then shouldn't EME also be flagged for lacking aspiration to raise the bar for themselves.

In fact that is the piskology here - if you want to stick to the subject. EME probaby don't even know what the current state of "cutting edge" is. You do. It is very likely that they use expressions like cutting edge without having deep insight into what other people (such as yourself) understand cutting edge to be, having been exposed to cutting edge in your experience. (**please see footnote )The fallout of this is that the armed forces - faced a choice between Hummer and Stryker on the one hand and Huffy and Tuffy on the other will make the no brainer choice.

The solution in my view is neither mockery nor piskology. There has to be coordination between armed forces and manufacturer. Ths last statement is well known to us - but I believe its significance is not easily recognised. If you travel back in time to say World War 1 when nations in Europe suddenly found themselves at war with other nations using "cutting edge" technology - they did not have the choice of importing Hummer because their Tuffy was no good. They did not even have the time to moan. They just had to choose the Huffy/Tuffy and get on with the job - get killed and demand improvements. That is what drove technology - the armed forces - driven by the unenviable situation of facing better equipment demanded that of their own industry because they did not have the import choice.

No, we do not want our armed forces to face that situation. But if we are sincere about not wanting that situation there is no alternative to the incompatible and unhappy marriage and cooperation of armed forces and local industry. Mockery and derision are funny, but they don't cut it.

**Footnote: Why don't you (and anyone else who cares) have a go at laying down specifications of a Tuffy like vehicle and say what cutting edge should be. Weights, engine, performance, thickness of armor, Armament if any, electronic requirements for sensors and comm, accommodation. Then lake a list of materials/alloys/composites (for armor/engine) etc available to India and check if EME has access to the required material and technology. Or any Indian company for that matter. That would show how much we know about cutting edge and what to demand of industry.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 28 May 2011 01:01

Why is LUH needed? Will inducting ALH instead be that cost prohibitive?

PS: I understand that, with single engine configuration and half the weight, LUH belongs to a totally different class. So, what I am really wondering about is the need for this project.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 28 May 2011 01:13

Gaur wrote:Why is LUH needed? Will inducting ALH instead be that cost prohibitive?

PS: I understand that, with single engine configuration and half the weight, LUH belongs to a totally different class. So, what I am really wondering about is the need for this project.

I have the same question. Won't a mix of Dhruvs for the utility and SAR role and Mi-17s for troop transport do?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 May 2011 06:53

Gaur wrote:Why is LUH needed? Will inducting ALH instead be that cost prohibitive?

PS: I understand that, with single engine configuration and half the weight, LUH belongs to a totally different class. So, what I am really wondering about is the need for this project.

Supply and rescue in very high altitude areas such as Siachen is cheaper with a smaller single engine helo. Currently served by chetak.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 28 May 2011 06:57

people already forgetting the instance where the AP CM's body could only be recovered using a small single engined LUH, because the others were too big and heavy ? situations like that happen all the time. then there's the equally important factor of cost.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 May 2011 13:58

^^^
Yes and in "cost" it is important to remember that they are talking of fuel costs. These helos are flying all the time in service of the nation - so even 10 % savings is a big deal.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 28 May 2011 17:14

^^
Well, thinking about it, the cost factor does seem larger than I had originally thought of it to be. Isn't the daily cost of transporting supplies to Siachin around Rs 5 crore (not sure of the figure though)? So, considering that most of the time the Dhruv's capability of carying 600kg at 21k feet would not be needed, a single engined lighter helicopter does make a lot of sense.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 28 May 2011 18:06

another of its roles is flying people around from one place to another, you don't need a 12 seater helo to fly a Maj. Gen from one base to another. similar logic to what we apply regarding office commute, take the smaller car, one person to a large vehicle is wasteful etc.

Raghunath · Post by **Raghunath** » 29 May 2011 08:57

Seems like a lot of air activity going on at lohegaon air base in pune. The Peacocks are here, and there 2-3 Sukhois also buzzing around. Any idea why? Some sort of rehearsal for something coming up?

abhinavjo · Post by **abhinavjo** » 29 May 2011 10:18

its Lohegaon Airbase!
Arent the Sukhois supposed to be there?

Raghunath · Post by **Raghunath** » 29 May 2011 11:18

Abhinavjo, I was more surprised by the Peacocks. This is the first time i've seen them here. Also, they've been flying in 3 ship formations for about the last 3 hours. They've passed over my house atleast 5 times this morning. I was wondering whether the gurus here could shed some light on what the activity was about

.

Whats unusual is that both, the helos and the Su-30s are flying fairly low, about 2000-5000 feet as far as a newbie like myself can judge. The engine sounds are simply amazing to hear!

sum · Post by **sum** » 29 May 2011 12:40

^^ Maybe, some major function in the offing at Pune/nearby area?

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 29 May 2011 14:15

Guess it could be the pass out parade at Khadakwasla??? Isn't the summer pass out parade around this time???

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 30 May 2011 22:44

It is for the pass out parade. I have seen the Sarang's in the past and they normally come in during the pass out parades. SKAT also has made some appearances (in the past). BTW where do you stay, I m in VimanNagar. Let me know!

Added later to clear confusion (in the past!)

Thanks Marten

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 31 May 2011 08:05

Does India use DU (Depleted Uranium) shells? I read an old article about how Indian Armoured columns were surprised about the penetration achieved against supposedly better protected Paki Tanks in 1965 and 1971 wars. Khan suspected it should be something to do with DU Shells. Bradmins, Is this is Haraam? if so, please delete.

negi · Post by **negi** » 31 May 2011 09:42

Afaik we do not use DU APFSDS rounds we instead use tungsten carbide.

Raghunath · Post by **Raghunath** » 31 May 2011 18:23

nikhil_p wrote:It is for the pass out parade. I have seen the Sarang's in the past and they normally come in during the pass out parades. SKAT also has made some appearances (in the past). BTW where do you stay, I m in VimanNagar. Let me know!

Added later to clear confusion (in the past!)

Thanks Marten

Thanks for clearing that up.

I stay on Mangaldas Road, about 4-5 km from Viman Nagar! We should definitely meet sometime. In fact, I was in Viman Nagar 2 weeks back to look for High Points from where to plane spot

.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 01 Jun 2011 18:47

After reading Jamwal's mil-scenarios, i got this doubt.

Indo-china border is ~2000KM long. What will be the cost of each layer of Akash defenses of 1 battery (of 4 launchers + radar + command center) per every 20KM? My calculation puts it at $1-$1.5B.

India might need to have 4-5 such SAM layers to prevent any large scale cruise missiles attacks from China.

Is this strategy practical?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Jun 2011 21:04

RamaY wrote:After reading Jamwal's mil-scenarios, i got this doubt.

Indo-china border is ~2000KM long. What will be the cost of each layer of Akash defenses of 1 battery (of 4 launchers + radar + command center) per every 20KM? My calculation puts it at $1-$1.5B.

India might need to have 4-5 such SAM layers to prevent any large scale cruise missiles attacks from China.

Is this strategy practical?

There is no need to cover the entire border with missiles. Cover only the towns and the likely valuable targets with missiles. Cover the entire border with radar so you see the planes early and warn the defences in the direction they are heading to expect company.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 01 Jun 2011 22:43

^^
Right. I ( as a newbie) envisaged placing 1 complete Akash battery at each likely ingress point to defend Leh airfield. India can't afford to lose Leh in case of war with China. Of course, when you expand the scenario to whole of border, there'll be 100s of places where you'd want to place the missiles, but that's impossible. Also, not every town along the border presents a good enough target for even a single cruise missile. But that's just me talking.

When I finish writing the scenario, I'll post it in a DOC/PDF format with some of the maps. Wanted to do that while posting here, but kind of missed it.

PS: Anybody with enough time to help with proof reading ?

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 01 Jun 2011 23:46

Jamwal mian.. send it over.. would love to help you out..
my id is djvigneshatgmaildotcom...

PS: Didn't see Martenullah's post..

Anyways always available in case you need any help..

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 02 Jun 2011 00:26

Raghunath wrote:
nikhil_p wrote:It is for the pass out parade. I have seen the Sarang's in the past and they normally come in during the pass out parades. SKAT also has made some appearances (in the past). BTW where do you stay, I m in VimanNagar. Let me know!

Added later to clear confusion (in the past!)

Thanks Marten
Thanks for clearing that up.

I stay on Mangaldas Road, about 4-5 km from Viman Nagar! We should definitely meet sometime. In fact, I was in Viman Nagar 2 weeks back to look for High Points from where to plane spot .

can you call me over the weak stop? number is as below
3 square - 3square into 6 - 11 into 5 - 5 square - 5 square into 2 - root 25.
Note: (-) does not mean minus.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 02 Jun 2011 16:31

Sent mail to you both.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 02 Jun 2011 19:42

Thanks for the answers.

I was thinking from Jamwal's scenario where some of the missiles are missed and how reloading is not helpful as the missiles go out of the range, hence the layered thought...

abhinavjo · Post by **abhinavjo** » 02 Jun 2011 20:45

Can anyone please give me PDF's of some COMPLETE scenarios? If there's a page containing all links then that'd be helpful otherwise please mail them to [email protected].
Its really annoying to go through the fictional mil scenarios thread and esp impossible when done offline

abhinavjo · Post by **abhinavjo** » 02 Jun 2011 20:55

Also nobody answered this the last time i asked it

I have always wondered What EXACTLY is the job of Indian Navy's Observer corp?....and please dont say observing

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 02 Jun 2011 22:34

^^^You do not need ALH to do Cheetah does in IA/IAF service or the Chetak for that of fact.....it is under utilization of resources. The thing is, neither IA nor IAF had anything in Dhruv class...it basically add to the capability and is in a segment of its own.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Jun 2011 07:06

NRao wrote:Irrespective of what language an article is written in, English, Pinglish or Inglish, it has to convey the proper meaning and not make it hell to read the article. Specially when there is free assistance.

Shiv ji,

You can set the default dictionary, in MS Word, to UK English and you should not have the problem.

Raoji - my browser uses a UK English spellcheck - but still I desire a dictionary that will not underline the common Indian English words in this screen grab of my browser window below

Is there a hijab forum thread where this can be discussed?