India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

[Singha]

EF in that chart carting 9 LGB or 5 ALCMs or 6 harpoons sound like pure fantasy to me. maybe it just notes which pylons are rated for how much weight and thats it - it cannot represent a realistic mission load.

[Rakesh]

Saint AK Anthony will be singing this to Vayu Sena, after the Typhoon is chosen...

I Know You Want It
,
But You Never Gonna Get It
,
Tere Haath Kabhi Na Aani
.

While Dassault will be singing this to the GoI after their rejection...

Maane Na Maane Koi Duniya
 Yeh Saari,
Mere Ishq Ki Hai Deewani
Kisi Aur Ki Mujhko Zaroorat Kya

Main Toh Khud Se Pyaar Jataun.
What’s My Name
...
What’s My Name
...
What’s My Name...

[negi]

Aye Admiral preparing for Navy Ball in advance, eh ?

[milindc]

http://progressiverealist.org/blogpost/ ... ghter-deal

Indian strategists simply do not see the problem that way. Several important problems have come to the surface – firstly, that the F-16IN and F/A-18 Super Hornet are older airframes, closer to the end of their technological life-cycle than the newer European aircraft. They may yet be open for newer upgrades that will allow India to keep pace with China’s modernizing indigenous aircraft industry. Making the development of India’s own industry even more difficult were US restrictions on technology transfers and demand for inspections. India does not want to be reliant on its arms suppliers, like most great powers. Finally, the fact that America has sold upgraded F-16 aircraft to Pakistan recently must be figuring in Indian strategic logic. Such a snub would not just be out of spite, it would also be out of a desire to maintain a strong qualitative edge against India’s main military adversary, and America ought to recognize that its relationship with Pakistan has often left Indians feeling insecure about their strategic position.

[Manish_Sharma]

In case of Typhoon, spain making right wing and italy the left while germany makes something else and then these parts get transported from one place to another for assembly. Is that how it works? Isn't all this transportation between 4 countries makes for more expensive aircraft? While Kat gets manufactured + assembled in one France itself helps keep the price down ???

[MarcH]

Arthuro, I've got some questions. Your whole argument about Rafales' CAS superiority stands and falls with the AASM triple racks. You compare loadouts with 6 500/250 lbs AASM with Tiffy loadouts carrying 1000 lbs bombs. So, is the triple rack capable of carrying 3 1000 lbs bombs ? If not, how many 1000 lbs bombs can the Rafale carry in addition to the fuel tanks ?
One more thing. From time to time surface pictures of Rafales fitted with the outer wing pylons. But somehow they are never seen on operational aircraft. Are they now fully integrated, and if yes, for which ordnance are they qualified ?

[Suresh S]

Clearly typhoon is better in some aspects like radar and engine. Even though my choice would be rafael but I have a feeling gov is going to go for typhoon.
The only way we should go for tyhoon is the critical factor of engine and radar technology in TOT. If the euro consortium is willing to give us extensive gyan about engine specially as well as radar tech than absolutely go for typhoon. But we should negotiate hard with these people with some one with the skills of a laxmi mittal.

There should be explicit terms in the contract for penalties and the whole contract to be reviewed if they go back on the TOT for engine and radar and by the way this BS about Indian industry being 2 decades behind or hundred decades behind as pronounced by some Joker from unkil,s place is not going to cut it. As far as I am concerned indians are some of the smartest people on this planet and they are quite capable of absorbing any tech that the white guys can provide.

The economies of spain, UK and Italy is in shambles and money talks . If we are to invest a massive amount of our hard earned cash which may come to in the range of 30-40 billion dollars or even more over the lifecycle of this aircraft we better get that engine and radar tech otherwise they would have had us for suckers.

[arthuro]

March,

>>The weapon/fuel layout advantage is more than just the triple rack, it is also with heavy stores like the cruise missiles or 1000kg bombs. whatever the type of loads (triple rack or bigger stores) the rafale can also take the three 2000L tanks with him and CFTs as option if a customer requires it. In these heavy AtG configurations it can take up to 6 AAM. The rafale doesn't use 500Kg bombs. It is 125Kg, 250Kg and 1000Kg. I don't believe the rafale could use the triple rack with 500Kg bombs. Assuming the 500kg bombs would be used the typical config would be 4*500 and a single 2000L drop tank on the center line. Two Twin racks might be possible but I can't say for sure.

>>The outboard weapon station are not cleared yet. They already exist on each rafale manufactured but the flight domain opening as not been done. The reason is that it is considered as an overkill for the french airforce. They considered it was unlikely to use 6 AAM in an AtG confrontation and that 6 AAM would be enough for air superiority.
UAE, another potential customer asked those two hard points to be cleared. That's why you can see (recently) rafale pictures with the outboard wings station used. The integration of brimstone or laser guided rockets with the rafale would also require to clear those hard points for operational use. That is the two recent reasons who lead to some works on the outboard hard points and thus the recent pictures wit stores as shown on the link just below.

http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/4029 ... 061236.jpg

Another configuration that was opened with the Rafale A but not used by the AdA although possible is the twin mica center fuselage configuration. Here is a picture of the max AtA load possible with the rafale :




If you want to push the AtA weapon load even more, developing a twin or triple rack for meteor or mica is certainly feasible.

[VishalJ]

While Dassault will be singing this to the GoI after their rejection...

Maane Na Maane Koi Duniya
 Yeh Saari,
Mere Ishq Ki Hai Deewani
Kisi Aur Ki Mujhko Zaroorat Kya

Main Toh Khud Se Pyaar Jataun.
What’s My Name
...
What’s My Name
...
What’s My Name...

Her name is Katreeeeena, here she is showing-off her Jawaaaaani http://www.airliners.net/photo/1927956/L/
Since she's too sexy phor us, ij that why apne haath na aani ¿

Lol but seriously, I hope she wins, EF2K isnt too bad in the looks dept either ah well.............may the best woMan win.

[Viv S]

CAS and AtG :

Because you are unable to come with « valuable » arguments you are asking others to give you legitimacy or caricaturing my arguments like sating I am forecasting the end of conventional warfare. Conventional state to state warfare is less likely due to the nuclear detterence but that doesn't mean you should not brace for every possibility.

Well I'll simplify my position then - the IAF will continue to train and plan for conventional warfare regardless of the probability or its fallout, be it diplomatic or nuclear.

Even in an Indian conventional warfare range and persistence is a very valuable asset, you can fight from unexpected directions, be re-tasked if needed which is a more and more common practice in a networked environment as you need the ability to adapt in near real time to the change of tactical situation. You can also change your course if a SAM threat materializes without fearing to run out of fuel. Rafale ability to carry more fuel externally while carrying heavy loads of AtG makes it a more flexible/valuable asset than the typhoon. It can adapt to a wider range of tactical scenarios. The Typhoon needs to trade off range for AtG stores while the rafale can have both including up to 6 AAMs.

Your opinion is that being able to carry two more PGMs with fuel tanks is a critical advantage. It isn't. The EF's range is NOT insufficient for the threats the IAF faces.

Or if extra fuel is always a huge asset come what may, then would care to tell me why you think fuel tanks were never integrated on the Su-30MKI. After all, despite having gobs of fuel, more is always better, right?

Also we should not forget that the rafale/AASM combo is way more capable than the Typhoon/PavewayIV one. In a conventional warfare enemy ground forces will likely be protected by tactical short and medium range SAM when maneuvering. A 6 AASM salvo will take care of a tank column in one pass at safe distance of around 60Km

While the EF has to .... ? IIRC the Paveway-IV has a range of 50km+ depending on the altitude and speed of launch. The EF can thereafter engage the ground forces with Brimstones once the mobile air defences have been destroyed/disabled.

In addition the IAF also has the option of ordering HOPE/HOSBO ranged at 100-160km.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... paign.html

while the typhoon will be at considerable risk with its PavewayIV or even brimstones if ever they are integrated. For less defended targets the rafale as also the option to take pavewayIV or brimstones.

So the Brimstone/Paveway-IV's integration on the Rafale is a given but on the EF is still questionable?

Again more options and more flexibility for the rafale. The Typhoon will be only able to operate AtG missions when the SAM threat is low as it lacks stand off weapons of the AASM category

The IAF is looking to integrate a long range standoff weapon which will in all probability be integrated on all multi-role platforms including the MMRCA.

and you will not use cruise missiles in quantities.

At $500,000/unit, we will not be able to use AASM in quantity either. Even if it reduces to $300,000 (as claimed by Sagem), its still a very expensive proposition.

Irregular warfare:

With the growing number of terrorist activities and the threat from those groups from being manipulated in an indirect conflict it would be foolish not to consider irregular type of warfare. Situation Indian forces already encounter in the cashmere region. When did the last indian BVR shot occured ? if you follow the historical logic then you would eliminate many needs which is again foolish. You can't predict the exact type of war you are going to fight and better have the more flexible asset (rafale) to tacke more effectively futur threats.

I'll repeat myself again - the Indian forces are NOT, repeat NOT, facing any situation of the kind in Kashmir. Not even close.

But if as you claim we should disregard history as well as the present situation and look at a completely hypothetical situation in the future, then fine, we'll do it.

Your claim is that the Rafale is vastly superior to the EF because it can loiter above a standoff with insurgent forces, with more fuel and two more PGMs than the EF. If that is case, isn't the Su-30MKI (270 of which are to be dispersed across the country) a lot lot better than the Rafale (same endurance, additional WSO, 8 or more PGMs)? What capability is the Rafale bringing to a COIN operation, that the IAF doesn't already possess in plenty?

Deep strike and cruise missiles configuration:

That is where the typhoon is lacking. It will only carry a single 1000L drop tank and the rafale 3*2000L. The rafale can carry one or two missiles depending on the mission, but the Typhoon can’t as asymmetrical configuration is not cleared. Rafale deep strike ability will allow it to strike some strategic facilities from where you don’t expect. The SCALP cruise missile is stealth and thanks to its 3D geo-reference of the target can penetrate through a window or any weak point of a hardened buried target with the exact desired angle.

Deep strike to hit a target where?

Its one thing to administer a spanking to your friendly neighborhood tinpot dictator (after offering to sell him Rafales), and very different thing to go off gallivanting deep in the PLAAF's backyard.

Regarding the Scalp - the Nirbhay will always be a safer option for hitting targets fairly deep in enemy territory.

Spectra:

Yes spectra can lock onto radar emissions at long ranges. That’s how rafale performed SEAD with AASM in Lybia (proven) and that’s how it scored 7-1 against the Typhoon in BVR and that’s more likely than not the way it managed to the rafale to be on par with the SH block2 during last year BVR exercise. That’s rafale special “demonstrated” feature and yes that change the balance as you can lock on enemy’s radar emission before he has a lock. In fact the F22 has the same feature with its ALRQ-94 EW suite. With constant hardware upgrades it will remain capable of locking onto newer radar emissions as well. It is a matter of processing.

Well then the F-22's rear is toast as well. The absence of an IRST sensor means its forced to employ the AN/APG-77 and BANG the crouching Spectra silent Rafale springs into action launching a salvo of Meteors. Rafale - 1 F-22 - 0. The End. (Coming soon - 'Rafale smokes PAK-FA' & 'Rafale blows away J-20).

On a more serious note, you're simply ignoring how AESA radars work in LPI mode. Broadcasting a very low powered signal spread over many dozens of frequencies simultaneously, 'encrypted' within the background noise, means that the Spectra's RWR will never be able to isolate a continually hopping signal let alone get a 3D ranging solution.

Upgrades:

Typhoon is several years late in its development and need considerable investments to become on par at a technological level. As the industry is bearing a huge part of this development effort it is not a rocket science concept to understand that they will have to bill these developments in a way or another.

All it needs to be at par with the Rafale is CFTs (AESA and Meteors are already sanctioned). Everything else be it TVC, PIMAWS,EJ-220 is icing on the cake. But in any case, I'm not asking why there is a bill to be paid, but what the bill says. How much are we talking here? What does 'considerable' mean? And what proportion of that do you suppose will be shared by UK and Germany?

First information leaked in the Indian press indicate the rafale as the lowest bidder as expected.

No information about the actual value of the bids has been leaked to the Indian press. Anything else you've read is simply that journalist's personal impression of what the costs are.

If the mirage upgrade was such a fiasco why shortlisting the rafale?

Huh? You might as well ask why diplomatic relations weren't broken off because of the French intransigence during the negotiations. Or I could carry on that line of reasoning and ask why, if the MoD/IAF were so delighted with the Mirage upgrades, did they persist with all this MMRCA nonsense instead of just ordering the Rafale in a single vendor deal?

There are pros and cons to most issues - and the fact that France will make all decisions regarding upgrades independently and will have a monopoly on its cost and availability, is just one facet among the many others relevant to the contract. Which wasn't so much a disadvantage vis-a-vis Sweden or Russia but given that the EF is offering a full partnership to India, it is a very significant disadvantage.

Now that the deal is near signed it will be wiser to go for the rafale to amortize the mirage investment.

It would also make sense to go for the Turbomeca engine for the LOH but the MoD fortunately doesn't like to be strong-armed.

The rafale being cheaper than the typhoon it seems that the overall economy should be substantial negating an hypothetic overpriced upgrade.

A domestically (i.e. Indian) manufactured Rafale will not be cheaper than the EF. The French MoD could put off inflation in the Rafale program by extending the production time whereas the EF members were constrained by punitive terms in their contracts with suppliers. None of this applies to a HAL manufactured product. What will matter though is the cheaper cost of imported components for the EF, thanks to a larger scale of production.

Also supplier/customer relationship as been good an loyal between Dassault and India. You could argue that it could have been the same with other suppliers but how could you know? Perhaps worst also…It is the actual relationship experience over the year that create confidence.

As opposed to? Bad and disloyal? The IAF had a pretty decent relationship with BAe as well vis-a-vis the Jaguar aircraft.

Point is opting for the EF allows the IAF to have a say in the aircraft's development, instead of being reliant on the contractor's 'loyalty' or goodwill.

[SaiK]

When the 6 contenders were in race, what was the feeling of everybody which a/c would GoI favourite?

Super Hornet., and what happened?

Now, there are many who feel that Ef2K will be GoI's choice.

..and what would happen based on the previous short select pattern?

Of course, it is like calling heads or tails.. but the problem is one can't toss in a certain manner so that there is more likely of one you like. It is all with GoI. so, relax.

[Manish_Sharma]

^^SaiK doesn't matter which way it'll go, it'll be a time for celebration. Both are almost neck to neck there'll be no heartburn like it was going to be in case teens were selected.

[MarcH]

March,

>>The weapon/fuel layout advantage is more than just the triple rack, it is also with heavy stores like the cruise missiles or 1000kg bombs. whatever the type of loads (triple rack or bigger stores) the rafale can also take the three 2000L tanks with him and CFTs as option if a customer requires it. In these heavy AtG configurations it can take up to 6 AAM. The rafale doesn't use 500Kg bombs. It is 125Kg, 250Kg and 1000Kg. I don't believe the rafale could use the triple rack with 500Kg bombs. Assuming the 500kg bombs would be used the typical config would be 4*500 and a single 2000L drop tank on the center line. Two Twin racks might be possible but I can't say for sure.

>>The outboard weapon station are not cleared yet. They already exist on each rafale manufactured but the flight domain opening as not been done. The reason is that it is considered as an overkill for the french airforce. They considered it was unlikely to use 6 AAM in an AtG confrontation and that 6 AAM would be enough for air superiority.
UAE, another potential customer asked those two hard points to be cleared. That's why you can see (recently) rafale pictures with the outboard wings station used. The integration of brimstone or laser guided rockets with the rafale would also require to clear those hard points for operational use. That is the two recent reasons who lead to some works on the outboard hard points and thus the recent pictures wit stores as shown on the link just below.

Well, it's the triple rack that frees up hardpoints and increases the number of carried bombs. The reason I asked for 1000 lbs bombs is to have better comparable configurations. Guess I have to wait till UK PW IV gets operational on Tiffy. And yes, I agree with you that additional loiter time is a good thing to have, and therefore Rafale should earn some brownie points.

Those a2a configurations, well, I think Tiffy offers here the better loadouts with the 4 semi recessed hardpoints under the fuselage + 4 missiles on wing stations. 6-8 missiles are probably enough, no need for airshow loadouts.

There are two different external tank designs documented in literature. The big 2000 liter tanks and the smaller pointy ones. Do both of them have supersonic clearance ?

[rajanb]

Guys,

Aren't the commercial bids being opened this week?

[geeth]

If we select Rafale, one thing that we could bargain for is the advanced composite technology used in Rafale airframe, which we might be able to use in LCA for weight reduction. Don't know how far Typhoon could help in this regard.

[SaiK]

The assimilations will take years, and I am sure any of these suppliers would drag to the end where they get the best bang of money. This is the reason B Karnad's point of view was correct to have the payments made in stages and phases as well., and put a big blocked agreement, that any such mischiefs would amount to cancelling of the whole deal.

Not sure about if we really need Rafale composites for LCA. LCA++ should indigenize from the baseline composite we have already got. We should only improve on it, perhaps adding more nano-technology sandwiched in the composites for radar absorption [wild altogether guess].

[jai]

Here's a different thought ..

Given that we are trying hard to get support for a security council seat, need hi tech aircraft fast
and need a lot of them to replace many aircraft in our near obsolete fleet, and our need to deny Cheen either of these aircraft or technology/equipment from the vendors of these aircraft; I think it may be a good idea to actually negotiate best rates with both for at least 126 aircraft, and buy them both. Over time, if and as required, numbers of either or both can be increased.

I am wondering what could be possible disadvantages of such an approach - given that we have always operated multiple aircraft types at the same time - 5-6 in the past and at least 5 in future too, while the pluses definitely seem to be there....

[SaiK]

No way.. no guboing ever! security council seat is the least of our priorities, rather building our capabilities. What cheen gets, and denial of service thoughts is counter productive to our capabilities. If our environment is so technically advanced, we have to race up, and exceed the capability match rather, and spend more money there. that is a long term idea!.

become economically strong, and invest more in defence that enemy should feel constrained to match.

[ranjithnath]

Here's a different thought ..

Given that we are trying hard to get support for a security council seat, need hi tech aircraft fast
and need a lot of them to replace many aircraft in our near obsolete fleet, and our need to deny Cheen either of these aircraft or technology/equipment from the vendors of these aircraft; I think it may be a good idea to actually negotiate best rates with both for at least 126 aircraft, and buy them both. Over time, if and as required, numbers of either or both can be increased.

I am wondering what could be possible disadvantages of such an approach - given that we have always operated multiple aircraft types at the same time - 5-6 in the past and at least 5 in future too, while the pluses definitely seem to be there....

this not so different thought had come up in MRCA discussions a dozen times.and its obvious that we are only goin for one aircraft.besides buying two differnet aircrafts of same generation with similar design principles and developmental history is only going to add to the logistical woes.both uk and french have supported our cause for security council seat.but no ones gonna go out of their way to lobby hard for us only becoz we bought their aircraft.

[rajanb]

Food for the EF clan: (And I am a katreena addict)

http://indian-defense-news.blogspot.com ... obody.html

Tuesday, May 24, 2011
The French Rafale Fighter Jet That Nobody Wants

Would love to hear what the gurus have to say.

Considering the IAF bought another aircraft which no one wanted but was very successful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folland_Gnat

And I quote:

By the end of 1971, the Gnat proved to be a frustrating opponent for the technically superior Sabres and had lived up to its Indian Air Force nickname of "Sabre Slayers" since all its combat "kills" during the two wars were against Sabres.[23][24] The Canadair Sabre Mk 6 was widely regarded as the best dogfighter of its era.[25] Tactics called for Gnats taking on the Sabres in the vertical arena, where the Sabres were at a disadvantage. Moreover, because the Gnat was lightweight and compact in shape, it was hard to see, especially at the low levels where most of the dogfights took place.[12] Apart from air defence operations, the aircraft performed multiple roles in the Bangladesh Liberation War, being used in anti-shipping operations, ground attack, bomber/transport escort and close air support with devastating effects on the PAF.[18][19] The success of the indigenously produced Gnats against the more sophisticated Pakistani-flown aircraft was viewed as a significant achievement.[26]

[Singha]

well by that yardstick even the EF has been more trickle funded than the rafale. atleast the rafale can all itself multi role today. at cold war levels of funding the EF would have been totally complete today than hope to attain full maturity in 2018. JSF is killing the A2G funding for EF as Govts feel since they are partners in or committed to JSF anyway, might as well save scarce dollars for that expensive strike baby and let EF retain its existing a2g capability. and for NATO colonial war use, the JSF with comprehensive a2g and pre-integrated cheap american weapons is more useful than EF for sure.

[rajanb]

Agreed Singhaji.

But to point out that the EF is being dumped for the JSF.

Would customers like Austria and Saudi Arabia support it so as to extend its capabilities?

It is interesting to observe that both the a/c in the MMRCA short list are being trickle funded. The Rafale less so than the EF. And the IAF seems to have chosen two aircraft: The EF that their own governments don't want. And the Rafale that its government wants but no ther country wants?

Has Unkil been sabotaging the latter?

So for the EF, their price would be agressive but only to try and reduce the cost of an a/c.

Whereas for the Rafale, it would be agressively priced too, but to keep it alive and kicking harder and garner more customers.

[arthuro]

CAS and AtG :

Considering the size of Pakistan and China and the number of potential threats range or persistence is an very valuable factor. It would be foolish to neglect strategic valued threats be it during a conventional warfare or for preemptive strikes. It would also be foolish not to consider other tactical situations requiring range or persistence. In short more fuel will help you to brace for a wider type of missions profile more effectively. Rafale fuel advantage makes it a more flexible asset than the typhoon.

You say IAF is not interested. Please bring a source, otherwise it is unnecessary to write in capital as it is just an opinion among others. Internet is full of self proclaimed expert and that’s not writing in capital which will make your point.
My point is that EF range is insufficient regarding AtG, especially given its size and its price. It will put a constraint for most missions planning and will prevent India to realize far reaching missions. It also lacks stand-off weapons to perform in a challenging environment.

You could argue that the Mki could take on those missions but I don’t believe so as it lacks the level of sensor integration and sensor fusion to react effectively in a multiple threat environment. The rafale has the ability to work simultaneously in AtG and AtA with the pilot in the back seat which is also an asset in this kind of missions. 360° AESA jamming and a lower RCS is also an asset.

AASM

How could you believe a free fall bomb will match a propelled AASM? You are dreaming here or you take the scenario where the typhoon would fly at mach 1, 5+ at very high altitude. With 6 Paveway IV and other stores it will not reach those speeds nor would it be practical/feasible operationally. The typhoon is not an F22 with its store in a weapon bay. The Typhoon has also not proved that it could lock onto SAM sites emission to extract the precise coordinates as Spectra does with the rafale. For these two reasons the Typhoon is unable to perform AtG duties is challenging environments. That’s a big shortcoming in a conventional warfare.

The AASM price you give is also plain wrong. The price paid by the French taxpayer is 143 000€ per copy for the initial batch. You cannot find a better source as it is from the published price by the French Assembly. France as ordered more than 4000 AASM from all versions and more than 200 have already been used in Afghanistan and Lybia so yes it can be used in relativly large quantities.

L'Armée de l'Air et la Marine nationale devraient acquérir 3.000 de ses kits de guidage, pour un coût total estimé à 430 millions d'euros (source: rapport parlementaire 2006). Soit, quand même, 143.000 euros l'unité !

http://secretdefense.blogs.liberation.f ... istan.html
http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/12/bu ... 572-08.asp



Brimstones and other AtG weapons.

Three weeks ago a French delegation travelled in Britain to talk about brimstones integration with the rafale. As for the typhoon brimstone integration is pure speculation at this stage. The rafale already uses the GBU12 and GBU22, the integration of the paveway IV should therefore not pose any challenge. It is also worth to note that the French navy already uses the Paveway IV extensively with the Super Etandard.
http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2011/05/ ... ale.html[u]

Spectra and LPI:

On a more serious note, you're simply ignoring how AESA radars work in LPI mode. Broadcasting a very low powered signal spread over many dozens of frequencies simultaneously, 'encrypted' within the background noise, means that the Spectra's RWR will never be able to isolate a continually hopping signal let alone get a 3D ranging solution

That’s just not how LPI works. Several weak signals from different frequencies emitted will result in very short range detection. LPI is indeed frequency changing but you need the sufficient emitting power on a given frequency to detect a fighter at long ranges. A less capable RWR will detect the emission but will not mange to have a lock due to rapid frequency changes. Spectra is continuously upgraded to have this edge in terms of processing power to beat the opposing radar in using LPI techniques.

Spectra “big upgrade” as already been officially launched to remain relevant well in the next decade. So yes it will be able to lock onto newer AESA radar as it already certainly did against SH APG-79.

Although the PEA INCAS has been notified in November 2009, the study of the SPECTRA 5T architecture system have already made good progress. Suitable demonstrators for various equipment should begin to work next year. J.-L ®

Already posted here (full article)
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... &start=280

from captain Romain a rafale pilot of the provence squadron :

Spectra is a accomplished self-protection system that we are developping every day with programming, testing and with software and hardware updates: month after month ,Spectra is evolving.In my opinion, i think we are currently using only 2/3 of Spectra capacities:

(same link as above for the full article)

Mirage upgrade:

If the mirage 2000 upgrade is eventually signed going for the rafale will bring substantial economies in using a common weapon reserve. Given that the rafale will be also be cheaper to buy and operate it is definitively the L1 solution. The rafale also beneficiates from the good reputation of the mirage 2000 in the IAF. For these reason going for the rafale is the certainly the safest option.

Offsets :

As far as partnership is concerned we should wait for dassault commercial proposal. There is certainly more to share when you are two (France and India) than when you will become one of the member of a five nation partnership.

[arthuro]

@March,

Both rafale fuel tanks (1250L & 2000L) have supersonic clearance although you would rarely reach supersonic speeds with the 2000L drop tanks.

[arya]

now some support for Jangi Tayara-E-Firangi

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/05/eu ... -push.html

[kmc_chacko]

What role actually MRCA play in IAF squadrons.

[VishalJ]

Dassault Test Pilot Dominique Sébastien & Shiv Aroor taxing back to the Rafale Stand at dusk

[jai]

If our environment is so technically advanced, we have to race up, and exceed the capability match rather, and spend more money there. that is a long term idea!.

become economically strong, and invest more in defence that enemy should feel constrained to match.

My thoughts exactly, and going for both will get us the best available technologies, so this is a golden time for us, where we may be able to invest less than cheen overall and achieve decent superiority - more or less for the same price as we would have paid for just one type.

In any case, we would also have the LCA, SU 30 MKI's, FGFA, MCA, upgraded Mig 29's, Upg Jaguars, Upg Mirage 2000's, MIG 21 BIS in addition to MRCA so IAF should be able to live with 2 MRCA types rather than one.

Here you are getting the best of both - A2A and A2G and EW capabilities.

We should think through all possibilities and put on our Chanikyan hats to get the best bang for our buck.

[VishalJ]

Is there a better resolution pic? I can't read the text under each weapon listed above?

Just came across it > http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Lz89at_Yzvk/T ... poster.jpg

[arthuro]

Another valuable operational and proven capability that the rafale offers proving its versatility :

The 21st century reconnaissance team

08:32 GMT, February 10, 2011 The AREOS Reco NG pod, an integral part of the F3 standard for Rafale fighters, brings France into the world of all-digital reconnaissance. As a veritable “omnirole” fighter, the Rafale has already replaced several types of warplanes in the French air force and navy. This trend is set to continue in the coming years with the retirement of France’s last Mirage F-1 fighters, the carrier-borne modernized Super Etendard and the oldest members of the Mirage 2000 fleet. The Rafale F3 will therefore take over the reconnaissance role, for which it deploys a dedicated system, the AREOS Reco NG pod developed by Thales.

The French air force has already ordered a dozen pods, and the French navy another eight. Several series of deck landing and catapult launch tests have validated the pod’s use on aircraft carriers.

TACTICAL AND STRATEGIC

The AREOS Reco NG pod is 4.6 meters long (15 ft.) and weighs 1,100 kg (2,420 lb), making it compatible with the Rafale, as well as the Mirage 2000 if needed. Up front on the pod, the HA/MA (high altitude/medium altitude) optical sensor supports photography at medium range, or even long-range at standoff distance. The AREOS Reco NG offers an identification range of several tens of kilometres – two to three times the range of the Presto pod currently deployed on Mirage F1CR aircraft in Afghanistan.

Located aft in the AREOS pod, the low-altitude sensor supports horizon to horizon photography at an altitude of only 60 meters (200 ft) and very high speeds. The pod operates automatically, whether working in intermittent, zone coverage or terrain-following mode, and always knows its exact position in space, so that it can control the pointing of its optical sensors in both pitch and roll.

Its control capability is based on data transmitted by its own inertial reference system, correlated with data from the nav-attack system on the aircraft itself. As soon as the shots are taken, they are automatically overlaid on a digital elevation model, geo-referenced and assembled to provide a complete mosaic of the target.

The images are then stored on a hard disk in the pod. They can be transmitted to a ground image receiving and processing station in real time, via a high-speed microwave link.

The recce pod can also operate in video mode by using successive images, and by measuring the displacement of a moving object from one image to another, it can estimate its speed.

Battlefield trials based on a hundred test flights enabled the CEAM military aircraft test center to validate the operation of the sensors and their tactical use in conjunction with the Rafale*.

Test flights covered the full range of scenarios, from conventional to unusual, including tests of opportunity targets involving aircraft being reassigned in the middle of their sortie, through the L16 datalink.

“The pod is very easy to operate,” emphasizes Lieutenant-Colonel Jean-Philippe Scherer, the officer in charge of the AREOS Reco NG program at CEAM. “The crew sees a pointer on their digital map with a mission request. All they have to do is indicate that they accept the mission and slave the pod to the pointer. It’s fast, easy, and there’s no risk of a misunderstanding, since no radio communications are involved.”

UNRIVALED

The teams at CEAM who subjected the Rafale-AREOS Reco NG duo to the toughest tests they could think of are very pleased. “The daytime images are excellent,” says Lieutenant-Colonel Scherer. “Our objectives for night imaging, especially long-range infrared shots, were just as ambitious. The initial results are encouraging, but we’re now waiting for new adjustments to further boost performance.”

With this dual capacity, tactical and long-range, day and night, the Rafale F3/AREOS Reco NG duo is unrivaled worldwide. The first crews from operational units were trained at CEAM this summer. Several weeks later, the system reached its initial operating limit for appropriate missions, for example in foreign theaters of operation. Reflecting this capability, the pod is now deployed on the Charlesde-Gaulle aircraft carrier. By the end of the year, it will open its operating envelope to include terrain following during penetration flights, which is nearly as complex as a nuclear mission.

When this capability is added, the pod will officially be in service. “We’re eagerly awaiting the advent of this pod, since it’s a vital part of the Rafale F3,” concludes Lieutenant-Colonel Scherer.

http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2011/02/ ... sight.html

[arthuro]

IAF wants multi-mission, long-range, mid-air refueling capable jets

© India Strategic

(...)

ACM Major: The Air Staff Requirements are secret documents and cannot be revealed. However, I can assure you that the ASRs are designed to be contemporary and futuristic, and also have a cost-benefit angle.
In a generic sense, we want a medium weight, multi role combat aircraft that can undertake air defence, ground attack, maritime attack (anti-ship) and reconnaissance roles with ease.
We want the aircraft to have adequately long range and endurance to meet our operational requirements. Extension of range through air-to-air refueling is also desired. Ease of maintenance and low life cycle costs would form part of the selection criteria.

http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories10.htm

[SaiK]

If MoD finally choses Rafale, then M2K upgrade must be canceled, and Rafale orders be increased if it requires. And get third party upgrade or home grown upgrading ToT rights for M2K, so that it can be done by our own lab boys.

[Shrinivasan]

Our wishes have been granted... Here is the Rafale Weapons load in hidef
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Lz89at_Yzvk/T ... poster.jpg

Courtesy Rafale News!!!

Kudos to Rafale news for frequent updates.

[rajanb]

Thanks Cheenumji.

Am eagerly awaiting the opening of the commercial bid. Hope it is the Rafale.

[Rakesh]

What role actually MRCA play in IAF squadrons.

After Ganga, Jamuna and Saraswati have gone under the bridge, you are now asking what role they are going to play?

If MoD finally choses Rafale, then M2K upgrade must be canceled, and Rafale orders be increased if it requires. And get third party upgrade or home grown upgrading ToT rights for M2K, so that it can be done by our own lab boys.

We don't have the luxury of maintaining the status quo of the Mirage 2000's combat capability. Remember, the first batch of Aishwarya joined Vayu Sena in 1985...that was over 25 years ago. She is an old beauty, but with a bit of make up and powder puff she can be a potent platform. If we can keep her going for another two decades - as the IAF says - then the upgrade is needed. We need to maintain squadron strength to keep parity as it dwindling year after year. WRT to third party upgrades, will it be as potent as the Dash 5 Mk2 that the IAF is so infatuated with? There will be transfer of technology with the upgrade program...only 6 aircraft will be upgraded in France and the rest at HAL in India.

Remember Dassault offered to transfer the entire M2K production line to India, but we had to go through this entire MMRCA tamasha. If we had only taken up Dassault on that offer!

[Manish_Sharma]

Was it germans or brits who refused to sell guns to armed forces in gujrat and kashmir?

[Rakesh]

The Germans...

[manum]

germans and austrians....

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/story ... 37309.html

[Rakesh]

How the Rafale and Eurofighter allured the Indians
http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_ur ... =Translate

[Manish_Sharma]

I hope merkel is asked this question when MRCA discussion comes up, even a reporter asking in press conference would be fun, or hopefully french should have mentioned this on the line of "we haven't put any restriction like germans refusing guns to indian security forces............"

Sanctimonious parasites begging us to buy their unfinished plane while condemning india on human rights ground.........