Indian Education System

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 28 May 2011 09:56

St Stephen's is a designated "minority instituion", much like a host of other (largely Christian) schools..An informal/semiformal/formal quota for the minority group exists in all these schools - typically doesnt hinder the "excellence quotients" of the better schools, incl Stephens...Issue with the college now is about the Principal (Valson Thamphu) and a small coterie - they have been running it like a personal fiefdom (including a phony PHD that the principal acquired 3 years back to comply with UGC regs)...Nothing terribly unusual - keeps happening in many institutions, but in this case, Thamphu and his ilk has been playing up the "christian minority" card a bit too much...Hence most people are pissed off...Including Sandeep Dikshit..

That shouldnt take away from the excellence spawned by Stephens in particular or Christian schools in general - across the board, some of our best schools are run by missionaries - from primary to post-grad...

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 28 May 2011 17:44

Excuse me, if this is under the wrong topic. First of all, congrats to the IIT entrance topper by the name of Prithvi. He'll no doubt do well in life. But when he was on TV, he was very disappointing to listen to. Very weak and inarticulate sounding. Total absence of the expected wit, verve, humour and incisiveness one would expect, in some measure, from such a bright person.

But let me say that in general, Indian kids in that age group of 13-19, are not very articulate, strong and self-assured as their comparable North American counterparts. Of the ones I've met- admittedly my experience is not vast- none have possessed those qualities. They all sounded weak, inarticulate and inexpressive.

It could be because of the general Indian attitude that youth is purely a phase of learning and study, and of respect( it comes off as over-respect) for adults. Not of independent articulation and self-expression.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 28 May 2011 19:00

Varoon Shekhar wrote:He'll no doubt do well in life. But when he was on TV, he was very disappointing to listen to. Very weak and inarticulate sounding. Total absence of the expected wit, verve, humour and incisiveness one would expect, in some measure, from such a bright person.

Sir, what wit, verve, humour do you expect from some 16 year old geeky shy kid who buried his nose in the books, hain ji? He is a kid after all. Very rarely do genius category people have good social skills whether SDRE or TFPE. This kid may or may not be a genius (time will tell) but hopefully he will mature properly and not burn out like so many whiz kids.

Varoon Shekhar wrote: But let me say that in general, Indian kids in that age group of 13-19, are not very articulate, strong and self-assured as their comparable North American counterparts. Of the ones I've met- admittedly my experience is not vast- none have possessed those qualities. They all sounded weak, inarticulate and inexpressive.

That is by and large true for us SDREs - we seem to be happy slogging away with our nose in the ground while the wily Khan does a few flashy ppts and gets the credit, promotion and bonus (and sometimes the boss's panties). That is why more Khans want to be liars and Yum-Bee-Aye giri masters while SDREs want to be injineers and daktars. One of the reasons is that presentation and communication skills are rarely given any importance in our school education and the book knowledge with exams is considered an end-all be-all. Do recall that you heard about this kid's name becoz he topped the IIT-JEE, not becoz he won some award or discovered/invented something. Exams are an efficient (albeit imperfect) way to filter the ordinary from the talented but cannot be considered an unbiased estimator of talent.

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 28 May 2011 19:36

Varoon Shekhar wrote: Very weak and inarticulate sounding. Total absence of the expected wit, verve, humour and incisiveness one would expect, in some measure, from such a bright person.

Not to belabor the point but the JEE exam is purely about a theoretical knowledge in physics, chemistry and mathematics at a high-school/college level. Verve, wit and humor are mere words in a dictionary when it comes to the life of these students. You have no idea of of the drill that most go through. It lasts years. If they had any measure of verve, wit and life when they started, it will have been wrung out to the last drop by the time they cross the finish line.

But let me say that in general, Indian kids in that age group of 13-19, are not very articulate, strong and self-assured as their comparable North American counterparts. Of the ones I've met- admittedly my experience is not vast- none have possessed those qualities. They all sounded weak, inarticulate and inexpressive.

In N.American school system (and even in the general approach to education), the focus is more on being well-rounded and broad than on just acquiring a knowledge of technical subjects. In India, the focus is overwhelmingly on technical matter- definitely upto high school, and even well-beyond that.

It could be because of the general Indian attitude that youth is purely a phase of learning and study, and of respect( it comes off as over-respect) for adults. Not of independent articulation and self-expression.

The two (respect and being articulate) are not mutually exclusive. Also, IMHO, 'learning and study' can and should involve aspects other than technical matter. And I am sure Indian students would take to these 'extraneous' aspects with enthusiasm were it granted any importance in the society.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 28 May 2011 20:04

sum wrote:^^ Unrelated to the fascinating exchanges on IIT etc going on, but what is this controversy over St.Stephens being a "communal" institution which was playing out on NDTV with INC ( not communal BJP) MP, Sandeep Dikshit almost coming to blows with St.Stephens principal, Fr. Valson Thampu?

As its name suggests that college is communal by definition. Some people are now upset because they did not do due diligence before signing on

One theme that's been playing out is that the Hindu middle class has been gravitating towards RSS influenced (Hindu) and "public" (secular) schools. The church run schools have compensated for the loss of clientele by recruiting poor students. This shift sometimes bubbles up in the news when former alumni don't agree with the change in tack.

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 28 May 2011 20:04

Raja Bose wrote: Exams are an efficient (albeit imperfect) way to filter the ordinary from the talented but cannot be considered an unbiased estimator of talent.

This is another basic aspect of the desi landscape that I wish would change. Topping tough exams is seen as the be-all and end-all of high achievement. Young people are not celebrated for building bridges, fuel efficient cars, rockets, satellites (BRF is an exception), starting companies etc. This is the yard-stick by which achievement should be measured, IMHO.

I have often wondered about the fascination with topping exams in the Indian societal mindset/piskology. People may recall the kid from Ballia who won national attention (and then notoriety, unfortunately) only for topping some NASA exam. I wonder if the ancient and medieval Hindus has entrance exams that had to be passed and the students were recognized as stars (found no instance of that). Shiv saar once mentioned something that seems relevant- that entrance exams were introduced by the British as a means to efficiently cateogirze and identify natives for jobs in the govt. sector (clerks, civil services, railway workers, police etc). Without doubt, that would have been important for Indian natives at large starving for good jobs. Perhaps that's where this started and got ingrained in the Indian mindset.

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 28 May 2011 21:11

Thanks, makes sense. In India, there is an emphasis on book knowledge and mastering technical information, particularly the theory behind it. I suppose what I was expecting from Prithvi( and kids like that) is not some ultra deep thought philosophical answer, but something even along the lines of "I am very happy for my achievement, and this is going to be the beginning of a long road filled with many challenges". Say something, for crying out loud!

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 30 May 2011 22:17

somnath wrote:St Stephen's is a designated "minority instituion", much like a host of other (largely Christian) schools..An informal/semiformal/formal quota for the minority group exists in all these schools - typically doesnt hinder the "excellence quotients" of the better schools, incl Stephens...Issue with the college now is about the Principal (Valson Thamphu) and a small coterie - they have been running it like a personal fiefdom (including a phony PHD that the principal acquired 3 years back to comply with UGC regs)...Nothing terribly unusual - keeps happening in many institutions, but in this case, Thamphu and his ilk has been playing up the "christian minority" card a bit too much...Hence most people are pissed off...Including Sandeep Dikshit..

That shouldnt take away from the excellence spawned by Stephens in particular or Christian schools in general - across the board, some of our best schools are run by missionaries - from primary to post-grad...

As a matter of fact, till recently, St Stephens had a quota for christians, but it was not a large percentage (22% i think). Now, it has been raised to 50%, under Valson Thampus breastbeating.

Frankly, many stephanians (so called secular ones included) have been responsible for the laws which have allowed minority institutions absolute control over admissions, and other pvt institutes NO control at all.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 May 2011 22:31

btw there has been a hard civil services entrance exam in china from a long long way back going back 1000+ yrs to some of the earlier dynasties.

most of the cabal of media gurus, communist satraps and their historian supporters are in some way related to st.stephens or to DU/JNU other 'top colleges'. but increasingly its not very relevant. either they enter some industry or go abroad - very few must be sticking around in indian academia or media these days.

GuruPrabhu · Post by **GuruPrabhu** » 31 May 2011 05:27

Folks,

The problem with Stephen's is that this is a new phenomenon. It wasn't always like this and this change in direction is angering people. Maybe not widely known, one of the graduates of Stephen's was the greatest Islamist of them all -- yes, Z u-H. Thampu is an a$$.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 31 May 2011 07:59

^^^Absolutely...He came to the college during his visit (cricket diplomacy et al) to India...

ASPuar wrote:Frankly, many stephanians (so called secular ones included) have been responsible for the laws which have allowed minority institutions absolute control over admissions, and other pvt institutes NO control at all

All minority instituions have such controls - Khalsa College in DU has for Sikhs, Jamia has quota for muslims..What is not in doubt though is the fact that most Christian schools are top notch, despite quotas et al...What we see in Stephen's is something that periodically happens in all schools - fiefdoms are difficult to give away...the "minority element" of the story makes it spicier, thats all..

sum · Post by **sum** » 31 May 2011 09:10

hanks, makes sense. In India, there is an emphasis on book knowledge and mastering technical information, particularly the theory behind it. I suppose what I was expecting from Prithvi( and kids like that) is not some ultra deep thought philosophical answer, but something even along the lines of "I am very happy for my achievement, and this is going to be the beginning of a long road filled with many challenges". Say something, for crying out loud!

Well, he did clearly mention in another interview that he wanted to join the IAS after IIT since he found IIT-ians crack IAS better!!

So, atleast the kid has some plans...

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 31 May 2011 09:36

It is strange he did not think of winning a Nobel, Fields Medal or the Bhatnagar award the most prestigious in India for Science/Technology. There is only one JEE topper who has done that so far, though there are more than one who has passed out of the IIT system and received the award.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 31 May 2011 10:32

GuruPrabhu wrote:The problem with Stephen's is that this is a new phenomenon. It wasn't always like this and this change in direction is angering people. Maybe not widely known, one of the graduates of Stephen's was the greatest Islamist of them all -- yes, Z u-H. Thampu is an a$$.

Absolutely right. It is an ongoing change.

Over the last few decades the lower community Indian Christians have become very dominant and are now a majority in most Churchs. The old long term Christians, (I'm talking 200+ years) are increasingly a tiny minority of India's Christian population. Not only that their children have an increasing tendency to emigrate permanently. I suspect Thampu is feeling some of that pressure from a community that demands resevations. Also I was told he has resigned already, can't see it in any newspaper yet.

Gradually the lower community bishops have taken over one Synod after another along with all the schools and property (Very valuable property) that goes with it. They tend to be extremely aggressive, have very sharp elbows and are very organized. These communities through their access to education, are approaching 100% literacy and know all the tricks to play. A side effect has been the increasingly vigorous proselytisation mission they pursue. A better side effect has been the relative emancipation of their women.

Expect more of the same.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 31 May 2011 11:08

GuruPrabhu wrote:Folks,

The problem with Stephen's is that this is a new phenomenon. It wasn't always like this and this change in direction is angering people. Maybe not widely known, one of the graduates of Stephen's was the greatest Islamist of them all -- yes, Z u-H. Thampu is an a$$.

Yeah.
Well, he isn't seen as legitimate nor as a Scholar in his own right.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 31 May 2011 11:41

Theo_Fidel wrote:Over the last few decades the lower community Indian Christians have become very dominant and are now a majority in most Churchs.

Hmm, I hadn't quite made that connection. It seemed to me that there was a concious decision by church authorities to focus on the poorer students in hopes of finding a more receptive audience, when compared to their former alumni.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 May 2011 12:39

there was a full page celebratory ad in TOI by chaitanya iit prep classes of Hyd. around 15 of the top100 (3 in top 10) seem to be part of their 2 yr residential program wherein Class12 education is also imparted and they appear in class12 board exams too via this coaching college to attain the qualifying criteria.
I am sure ramaiah of Hyd also has a similar successful track record.

the schedule over these 2 yrs is likely to be monastic and gruelling. same in kota.

while its laudable we have young people who can stand up to such pressure and deliver on d-day, one would prefer more the "khan model" of having enough top notch univs such that almost no bright student of reasonable means who wants to study something is deprived of it purely on basis of a shortage economy of quality colleges and murderous tests to get in

sure caltech and mit are higher rated than say ann arbor or maryland or penn state , but it also cannot be denied these also impart a fairly world class and well equipped UG and PG educashun...one need not "lose face among elders" or "let down the family" for failing to make mit or princeton

(except the kids of desi and chini tiger parents who make a competitive H&D issue out of every little thing...)

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 31 May 2011 12:43

I dont see what this heartburn on ST Stephens, it has always had been a Minority Institution with an aim to Uplift Minorities. What is wrong if it reserves 50% seats for its community. SHouldnt all Minority Intitutions have atleast 50% or Greater reservation for thier community. Offcourse only issue could be is to receive state Funds to educate only a particular community for educating a particular community. Then again DOnt Central and state Govts. give Hundreds of Crores to Madrasas

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 May 2011 12:48

well perhaps the moral fiber and officerlike qualities of gentle(wo)man cadets entering the hallowed gates of stephens does not measure up to what the old chai biskoot gang in the deep worn teak sofas and shady courtyards of IHC, oxbridge and IIC expect

and white turbaned waiters flit around bring in tea and jam sandwiches.

add to that old alumni who went into academia must be unhappy that people are not too interested these days...who would be when there's crores to "loot" via a Mba from IIM

vina · Post by **vina** » 31 May 2011 13:39

Problem was that 50 /60 years ago and even earlier , the missionary schools were the ONLY game in town (other than exceptions that were far and few inbetween). In metro and city after city, same.. Loyola, St Stephens, Loretto, Bishop Cottons, Cathedral & John Connon, Don Bosco ..etc..

That produced in those days, nearly all the haw-haw and pshaw.. "horse riding" and horsing types that went into the civil services, served as kampany baboos, you get the general drift.

Now that Yindoo middle and upper classes dont go there anymore (largely) and go to the PissBabies and this and that in Chennai , NPS, Kumarans, DPS etc and frankly dont give a toss anymore of going to a "Christian" college and getting an ejjukashun in "humanities" and "littarchaw" and "(f)arts" anymore. Now it is the cut and thrust of YinJinEarring, Medicine, PissNess, Commerce and other professionally oriented courses. The question is , where is the cheese ? No more is ejjukashun, especially the higher education a genteel preserve of gentelmen sophisticates independently wealthy and dabbling around as a hobby like in the Oxbridge days of old, and in fact, other than the St.Stepehens - Dilli Billi types, few if any these days want to go to Oxbridge! In fact the Dilli Billis and the "public" and "christian mission" schools deserve each other and can continue their hackneyed ways and alternate reality of Doon School and St.Stephens and Oxbridge for the final mind f**king for which they drag their a**es over to.

If one had any sense, he jumps over the pond and goes straight to Al-Haahvud and other ivy leagues if you want to do YumBeeYea giri or other "(f)arts", "humanities", "social sciences" giri or to YummItea , Stand Mad,UCB or the other top ranked Engg, Sci and Math madrassas in Massa.

Frankly, the christian schools are living off their history and heydays from 30/40 years ago. The population base and the catchment that gave them their reputation has given them the go by in the last 20/25 years or so.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 31 May 2011 15:45

The question is not "Why should minority institutes not be permitted to reserve"? Let them, by all means.

The question is, why should private, unaided institutes, be forced to reserve?? Why are they not allowed freedom of choice of students, when minority institutes have such control over who is admitted?

Even Army College of Medical Sciences (A private institute, funded by contributions of service members to Army Welfare Edn Society) cannot say that "we want to reserve seats in this college, because we put up the money for it, and we want only military wards to be admitted". It MUST admit candidates only on the basis of central tests, and cannot admit only military wards, even though the funding for the society is entirely from Army personnels private pockets, without govt contribution. Why?

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 31 May 2011 17:01

^^^Pvt institutions dont typically have any govt-imposed reservations...So a BITS Pilani or an SP Jain or an XLRI dont have any of the SC/ST/OBC reservation....
As for Army College of Medical Sciences, it is 100% reserved for Army kids...So is the Army College of Engg..So is SIMS, Pune AFAIK...So no discrimination there!

The only category of kids without any "reservation" anywhere are civilian hindu upper caste types!

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 31 May 2011 17:35

TN medical colleges seek Rs 25-45 lakh as capitation fee

CHENNAI: Anticipating a huge demand for undergraduate medical admissions this year, private medical universities and colleges in Tamil Nadu have jacked up charges for MBBS admission — application forms, tuition fee and the illegal capitation fee.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 656418.cms

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 31 May 2011 23:11

somnath wrote:^^^Pvt institutions dont typically have any govt-imposed reservations...So a BITS Pilani or an SP Jain or an XLRI dont have any of the SC/ST/OBC reservation.... As for Army College of Medical Sciences, it is 100% reserved for Army kids...So is the Army College of Engg..So is SIMS, Pune AFAIK...So no discrimination there!

The only category of kids without any "reservation" anywhere are civilian hindu upper caste types!

Actually, the hon'ble Supreme court of India has recently struck down reservation for army wards in ACMS. They are no longer a protected category for admissions in AWES run institutes.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 01 Jun 2011 00:20

somnath wrote:^^^Pvt institutions dont typically have any govt-imposed reservations...So a BITS Pilani or an SP Jain or an XLRI dont have any of the SC/ST/OBC reservation....
As for Army College of Medical Sciences, it is 100% reserved for Army kids...So is the Army College of Engg..So is SIMS, Pune AFAIK...So no discrimination there!

The only category of kids without any "reservation" anywhere are civilian hindu upper caste types!

Reservation is applicable to all institutions, be it Pvt or public.

As far as Army educational institutions are concerned, Army kids are not a recognised class of Minority so no reservation for them

Everyone follows SC/ST/OBC and respective minority reservations within 50% limit. and in some cases exceeding that but matter is in SC on many occasions.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 01 Jun 2011 01:54

True, reservation is applicable too private educational institutions too. This at least is the case in karnataka. Also, if i remember right, one of the clauses in the proposed foreign universities bill which would allow foreign universities to operate here was that they won't be bound by the reservation clause.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 01 Jun 2011 06:07

ASPuar wrote:Actually, the hon'ble Supreme court of India has recently struck down reservation for army wards in ACMS. They are no longer a protected category for admissions in AWES run institutes

Really? That would be new then...Even 12-13 years ago, SIMS was fully reserved for Army kids..ACMS is a newer baby..

Heck, just checked their website..Seems there website isnt updated if there is an SC order to that effect..
http://theacms.in/admissions.pdf

chaanakya wrote:Reservation is applicable to all institutions, be it Pvt or public.

As far as Army educational institutions are concerned, Army kids are not a recognised class of Minority so no reservation for them

Not true - depends on the "type"...I personally know BITS PILANI and XLRI dont have any reservations..Maybe the "capitation fee" type colleges in K'taka who sometimes get land from the govt need to maintain some quota...

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 01 Jun 2011 06:19

ASPuar wrote:The question is, why should private, unaided institutes, be forced to reserve?? Why are they not allowed freedom of choice of students, when minority institutes have such control over who is admitted?

Ah! because otherwise, the smart and or well heeled kids would flee to enclaves. The idea you see is to lay the burden of education onto the people not responsible for the mess.

BTW, 'minority' does not include Catholic schools like Cathedral in Mumbai. They too are subject to the RTE.

All in all a war against the middle class.

That's what Kapil Sibal is all about. Other people's money and lives of their children. No responsibility/accountability. Totally cynical. But then he is a lawyer.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 01 Jun 2011 09:01

Bade wrote:It is strange he did not think of winning a Nobel, Fields Medal or the Bhatnagar award the most prestigious in India for Science/Technology. There is only one JEE topper who has done that so far, though there are more than one who has passed out of the IIT system and received the award.

Bade mian who is that gent in question?

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 01 Jun 2011 11:05

Paging the congress party spoon to come forward to yakkitak endlessly on how more of the same is good for gobar gassing the world.
‘Deemed’ move raises eyebrows - Case in court, UGC scans 13 new applications
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1110601/j ... 056101.jsp

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 01 Jun 2011 11:14

somnath wrote: Really? That would be new then...Even 12-13 years ago, SIMS was fully reserved for Army kids..ACMS is a newer baby..
Heck, just checked their website..Seems there website isnt updated if there is an SC order to that effect..
http://theacms.in/admissions.pdf

Yes, non-reservation in AWES institutes for Army wards is quite a new development. It affects admissions from this year onwards, and does not apply retrospectively, for the obvious reason that such a move would cause chaos in previous admission lists. The supreme court has, for this year, ordered AWES to create supernumerary seats to accommodate others, and from next year to make it part of its regular admission process.

somnath wrote: Not true - depends on the "type"...I personally know BITS PILANI and XLRI dont have any reservations..Maybe the "capitation fee" type colleges in K'taka who sometimes get land from the govt need to maintain some quota...

XLRI is a Christian (Jesuit) minority institution, so anyway it is exempt from reservations.

Im not sure what reason BITS could bring to bear for its non reserved status. It is, of course, a private, unaided institute, and a deemed university to boot. I suspect it has something to do with the judgement of the hon'ble supreme court, in AK Thakur V UOI.

The Constitution (93rd amendment), added the following to Art 15 of the constitution of India, in 2005:

Article 15(5): "Nothing in this article or sub clause (g) of clause (1) of article 19 shall prevent the State from making any special provision, by law, for the advancement of any socially and educationally backward classes of citizens or for the SC's or ST's in so far as such special provisions relate to their admission to educational institutions including private educational institutions, whether aided or unaided by the State other than the minority educational institutions referred to in clause (1) of article 30"

The language is pretty unambiguous, and makes clear that the state feels that it has the right to legislate reservations in any private, unaided institute which is not of a minority character.

The hon'ble Supreme Court of India has had opportunity to comment on the amendment:

In its judgement in the matter of Ashok Kumar Thakur V. Union of India, the court propounded the following:

1. Minority institutions are not to be burdened with reservation, even if they are aided by the state.

2. The legislature has not overstepped itself in putting forth this provision, and not delegated excessive power to the executive.

3.

Supreme Court wrote:Does the 93rd Amendment violate the Basic Structure of the Constitution by imposing reservation on unaided institutions?

Yes, it does. Imposing reservation on unaided institutions violates the Basic Structure by stripping citizens of their fundamental right under Article 19(1)(g) to carry on an occupation. T.M.A. Pai and Inamdar affirmed that the establishment and running of an educational institution falls under the right to an occupation. The right to select students on the basis of merit is an essential feature of the right to establish and run an unaided institution. Reservation is an unreasonable restriction that infringes this right by destroying the autonomy and essence of an unaided institution. The effect of the 93rd Amendment is such that Article 19 is abrogated, leaving the Basic Structure altered. To restore the Basic Structure, I sever the 93rd Amendment's reference to "unaided" institutions.

Thus, the SC seems to be opposed to reservations in unaided institutions.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 01 Jun 2011 12:17

ASPuar wrote:Yes, non-reservation in AWES institutes for Army wards is quite a new development

Ok, to be honest any institution with 100% reservation can never develop into a good school...You need a broad based pool of talent to choose from...The reason why schools like XLRI/Stephens are good is not because of the "christians" there, but all the ther general cat chaps..

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 01 Jun 2011 21:27

Raja Bose wrote:
Bade wrote:It is strange he did not think of winning a Nobel, Fields Medal or the Bhatnagar award the most prestigious in India for Science/Technology. There is only one JEE topper who has done that so far, though there are more than one who has passed out of the IIT system and received the award.
Bade mian who is that gent in question?

Rajesh Gopakumar, '84 topper if I recall correctly.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 01 Jun 2011 23:44

somnath wrote:
chaanakya wrote:Reservation is applicable to all institutions, be it Pvt or public.

As far as Army educational institutions are concerned, Army kids are not a recognised class of Minority so no reservation for them
Not true - depends on the "type"...I personally know BITS PILANI and XLRI dont have any reservations..Maybe the "capitation fee" type colleges in K'taka who sometimes get land from the govt need to maintain some quota...

Well if you don't know then I can't help. Its there for all be it BITS or XLRI etc unless they are classified as Minority. In that case they would have quote for that minority.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 02 Jun 2011 00:51

ASPuar wrote: XLRI is a Christian (Jesuit) minority institution, so anyway it is exempt from reservations.

Im not sure what reason BITS could bring to bear for its non reserved status. It is, of course, a private, unaided institute, and a deemed university to boot. I suspect it has something to do with the judgement of the hon'ble supreme court, in AK Thakur V UOI.

The Constitution (93rd amendment), added the following to Art 15 of the constitution of India, in 2005:

Article 15(5): "Nothing in this article or sub clause (g) of clause (1) of article 19 shall prevent the State from making any special provision, by law, for the advancement of any socially and educationally backward classes of citizens or for the SC's or ST's in so far as such special provisions relate to their admission to educational institutions including private educational institutions, whether aided or unaided by the State other than the minority educational institutions referred to in clause (1) of article 30"

The language is pretty unambiguous, and makes clear that the state feels that it has the right to legislate reservations in any private, unaided institute which is not of a minority character.

The hon'ble Supreme Court of India has had opportunity to comment on the amendment:

In its judgement in the matter of Ashok Kumar Thakur V. Union of India, the court propounded the following:

1. Minority institutions are not to be burdened with reservation, even if they are aided by the state.

2. The legislature has not overstepped itself in putting forth this provision, and not delegated excessive power to the executive.

3.
Supreme Court wrote:Does the 93rd Amendment violate the Basic Structure of the Constitution by imposing reservation on unaided institutions?

Yes, it does. Imposing reservation on unaided institutions violates the Basic Structure by stripping citizens of their fundamental right under Article 19(1)(g) to carry on an occupation. T.M.A. Pai and Inamdar affirmed that the establishment and running of an educational institution falls under the right to an occupation. The right to select students on the basis of merit is an essential feature of the right to establish and run an unaided institution. Reservation is an unreasonable restriction that infringes this right by destroying the autonomy and essence of an unaided institution. The effect of the 93rd Amendment is such that Article 19 is abrogated, leaving the Basic Structure altered. To restore the Basic Structure, I sever the 93rd Amendment's reference to "unaided" institutions.
Thus, the SC seems to be opposed to reservations in unaided institutions.

The part that you have quoted is from the Judgement written by R.V. RAVEENDRAN J. which is a minority Judgement concurred by Dalveer Bhandari, J.

Majority Judgement was delivered by CJI (K Balakrishnan, D A Pasayat, C Thakker)
In fact Majority Judgement Choose not to answer or go with CJI. Hence that question remains unanswered in the case of unaided institutions to the least and the amendment still stands.

Therefore, we hold that the Ninety-Third Amendment to the Constitution does not violate the "basic structure" of the Constitution so far as it relates to aided educational institutions. Question whether reservation could be made for SCs, STs or SEBCs in private unaided educational institutions on the basis of the Ninety-Third Constitutional Amendment; or whether reservation could be given in such institutions; or whether any such legislation would be violative of Article 19(1)(g) or Article 14 of the Constitution; or whether the Ninety-Third Constitutional Amendment which enables the State Legislatures or Parliament to make such legislation - are all questions to be decided in a properly constituted lis between the affected parties and others who support such legislation.

Therefore, the plea that Article 15(4) and 15(5) are mutually contradictory and, therefore, Article 15(5) is not constitutionally valid cannot be accepted. As has been held in N.M. Thomas case (supra) and Indra Sawhney's case (supra), Article 15(4) and 16(4) are not exceptions to Article 15(1) and Article 16(1) but independent enabling provision. Article 15(5) also to be taken as an enabling provision to carry out certain constitutional mandate and thus it is constitutionally valid and the contentions raised on these grounds are rejected

A. Pasayat ( and for C.K. THAKKER) wrote in concurring Judgement

Challenge relating to private un-aided educational institutions has not been examined because no such institution has laid any challenge. It is to be noted that the petitioners have made submissions in the background of Article 19(6) of the Constitution. Since none of the affected institutions have made any challenge we do not propose to consider it necessary to express any opinion or decide on the question.

So the position stands except in case of Minority Institutions. I think BITS is Jain Minority Institution and hence exempt. Quoting such institutions to say that there is no reservation in Private educational institutions would be irrelevant.

UBanerjee · Post by **UBanerjee** » 02 Jun 2011 03:19

Singha wrote:sure caltech and mit are higher rated than say ann arbor or maryland or penn state , but it also cannot be denied these also impart a fairly world class and well equipped UG and PG educashun...one need not "lose face among elders" or "let down the family" for failing to make mit or princeton (except the kids of desi and chini tiger parents who make a competitive H&D issue out of every little thing...)

It's amusing, my cousin had a good friend who was valedictorian of his class in a USA school, a white guy, who got into Haahvahd and other good schools, and his parents were not impressed with his decision to go there because of the mucho expense, and they told him he was on his own paying for it! (not a poor family either)

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 02 Jun 2011 04:10

Bade wrote:
Bade wrote:It is strange he did not think of winning a Nobel, Fields Medal or the Bhatnagar award the most prestigious in India for Science/Technology. There is only one JEE topper who has done that so far, though there are more than one who has passed out of the IIT system and received the award.
Rajesh Gopakumar, '84 topper if I recall correctly.

Ah! One of the HRI string theorists - didn't know he was Eye Eye Tea JEE topper.

anjan · Post by **anjan** » 02 Jun 2011 05:22

somnath wrote:
ASPuar wrote:Yes, non-reservation in AWES institutes for Army wards is quite a new development
Ok, to be honest any institution with 100% reservation can never develop into a good school...You need a broad based pool of talent to choose from...The reason why schools like XLRI/Stephens are good is not because of the "christians" there, but all the ther general cat chaps..

The purpose of Army based organizations was simple: Army wards due to the nature of the jobs of their parents cannot compete at the same level as kids who spend decades in the same places with access to better educational facility. Your logic is fallacious. Do you seriously expect a kid who spend half his 12th in Wellington and then spends another half in Udhampur to compete in say the TNPCEE as an equal to student who spent the last decade in Chennai with its abundance of prep classes? FWIW I know of people who were exactly in that situation. Whether a school can be "good" should be left to the people who fund the bloody school.

The lesser said about the Supreme Court, the better. Their decision is downright criminal.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 02 Jun 2011 06:43

chaanakya wrote:Well if you don't know then I can't help. Its there for all be it BITS or XLRI etc unless they are classified as Minority. In that case they would have quote for that minority

Boss, I have batchmates from school, uni, insti who have studied in these places..Unless rules have changed in the last 10-12 years...

anjan wrote:The purpose of Army based organizations was simple: Army wards due to the nature of the jobs of their parents cannot compete at the same level as kids who spend decades in the same places with access to better educational facility. Your logic is fallacious

I am not making a value judgement on the relative merits of Army kids - I had lots of them as batchmates, the normal curve applies equally to them as to any other group...The limited point is that if a school only takes in students from a limited pool of students (and the Army pool by definition is small), it will never graduate to being considered a centre of excellence, thats all...the fame of IIXs is not because of their "quota" students, but their general cat ones (to be sure I am not comparing Army kids to "quota" students, just giving an example)...

Lastly, transfers are a way of life not just in the Army, but in all central govt services...Its worst in the paramils...Most families make adjustments for that...In my family, we stayed back in Calcutta to finish my school sessions when my dad was transferred to Del - it was a year before we went...That is why you have a concept of "retaining quarters" - so for some postings (with less infra), the person can retain his existing acco...In Delhi's Lodhi Road hostel, where we stayed for a few years, we had tons of neighbours who were posted in all sorts of places - Kashmir to Manipur to Jamnagar, while the families and kids stayed in Del, primarily for education...

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 02 Jun 2011 09:58

anjan wrote:The purpose of Army based organizations was simple: Army wards due to the nature of the jobs of their parents cannot compete at the same level as kids who spend decades in the same places with access to better educational facility. Your logic is fallacious.

Not saying Military can't have its own schools but...

This a situation many other organizations face. I personally spend 6 years unschooled because my Dad was posted in the wilds of India. There was no reserved college or school for me. In class Eleven I moved from CBSE to State syllabus after 6 months cos my Dad got transferred to Chennai. Anyone in TN knows the challenge of going from CBSE to state syllabus.

I actually went to a school that is 50% reserved for military. Let me tell you the vast majority were not deserving. Maybe it is different now or in other places. Most of them were from 'connected families' who fudged the paperwork to get hem admitted. Not only that the few military students in there had absolutely no intention of joining the military. No aptitude for it. To be honest the daily (including Sunday) 5 AM wake up call and forced 5 km march through the wilds of Nilgiris would discourage the most avid military recruit. I have a cousin who went through helicopter training and the 10 year job requirement because his dad was military and he got a reserved seat. The military must have spent at least 1 Crore on training him and acquiring 6000 helicopter man-hours. Yet the moment the job requirement was over, he put in for discharge and now fly's a 2 seater rural helicopter for farmers and hospitals in the wilds of Nebraska. What can I say...

This whole reservation thinking is twisted and must stop.