India Nuclear News And Discussion

arnab · Post by **arnab** » 26 May 2011 08:50

GuruPrabhu wrote:It would be good if the major points were teased out succinctly. So far, what we have seen are massive cut&paste jobs.

Also, design improvements such as more passive cooling are common to all approaches. So, we need to look at the *inherent* deficiencies as are claimed.

Exactly

instead we are being given meaningless clap-trap like 'for a given level of safety; PHWRs are better than LWRs'! Considering the entire question is whether the 'given level of safety' is safe enough !

Anyway GP-saar in order to prevent the thread from being s-fied further

, was wondering if you had a look at the IAEA assessment of the Indian PHWR safety features, as updated in April 2011.

http://aris.iaea.org/ARIS/download.cgi? ... output=pdf

Truely a great job by our nuke scientists, but as always 'beyond design basis' events will obviously test the safety

Beyond Design Basis Accident Coping Capability

An accident sequence involving loss of coolant with failure of emergency core cooling can lead to a severe accident
with failure of maintaining moderator and calandria vault water heat sinks.

...

Similarly, the safety equipment reliability is maintained at: '1 in 1000 year chance of failure' (what happens if we get a 1 in 10,000 year event?). Would appreciate your views.

The safety systems are designed to have very high reliability and
each safety system is designed to have unavailability target below 1.0 x 10-3 yr / yr. Defence-in-depth concept has
been applied to containment of radioactive material, by a series of physical barriers. Provision of periodic testing and
inspection of active components in safety systems are possible online.

amit · Post by **amit** » 26 May 2011 12:22

arnab wrote:http://aris.iaea.org/ARIS/download.cgi? ... output=pdf

Truely a great job by our nuke scientists, but as always 'beyond design basis' events will obviously test the safety

Beyond Design Basis Accident Coping Capability

An accident sequence involving loss of coolant with failure of emergency core cooling can lead to a severe accident
with failure of maintaining moderator and calandria vault water heat sinks.
...

Similarly, the safety equipment reliability is maintained at: '1 in 1000 year chance of failure' (what happens if we get a 1 in 10,000 year event?). Would appreciate your views.

The safety systems are designed to have very high reliability and
each safety system is designed to have unavailability target below 1.0 x 10-3 yr / yr. Defence-in-depth concept has
been applied to containment of radioactive material, by a series of physical barriers. Provision of periodic testing and
inspection of active components in safety systems are possible online.

Boss,

The link seems dead. Could you please fix it? I'd love to have a look at the pdf.

TIA

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 26 May 2011 21:26

GuruPrabhu wrote:...... FBRs are "fast" reactors because they use fast neutrons (>1MeV) as opposed to thermalized neutrons (~<eV).

Oh..Oh.. here we go again ..
Now, "for a given level of safety"

aren't these worse than LWRs/BWR's..
These buggers, unlike meltdowns of BWR's , can actually explode like nuclear bombs.. right!
( For skeptics ..Guys..get ready, set.. start googling ...

)

I know, Fukushima, according to Busby had a few nuclear explosions along with estimated 1,400,000 deaths from radiation alone .. (No, I don't believe such numbers, but some here do)... so how much destruction these buggers would bring.

Can those experts who claim to know inherent deficiencies and such things, comment.

GuruPrabhu · Post by **GuruPrabhu** » 27 May 2011 09:17

arnab,

The link works for me -- amit, not sure what is wrong for you.

It is a detailed document and one can make what one wants from it. Here is the crucial bit about how to handle a LOCA:

By receiving emergency injection of heavy water and light water from pre
charged accumulators while depressurization of primary heat transport system
is taking place. After initial supply from accumulators is exhausted, long
term core cooling is established by emergency core cooling system (ECCS)
recirculation pumps and heat exchangers.

it is sufficient in my view, but then one can always find scenarios where this fails. IMO, this is a losing exercise for discussion in the public domain.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 27 May 2011 16:50

Interesting article about the "resurgence" of Thorium-based power..

http://mg.co.za/article/2011-05-27-brig ... ear-power/

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 28 May 2011 12:07

Map of affected areas in case of simulated radiation leak. Note this is just for first 24 hours. It appears the entire city of Chennai will be covered by a Kalpakkam situation. Map is bit 'double exposed', not sure why. Since it is May 28th right now thought it was interesting.

amit · Post by **amit** » 30 May 2011 13:40

GuruPrabhu wrote:The link works for me -- amit, not sure what is wrong for you.

It's also working for me now. I wonder what happened the last time? Perhaps the site was temporarily down?

Anyway interesting document. Will need some time to read and digest.

Thanks

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 30 May 2011 16:16

Theo, can you provide the link for that map or the color bar units and parameter shown.

GuruPrabhu · Post by **GuruPrabhu** » 30 May 2011 18:32

^^^ Bade, I suspect that the color bar is in relative units. To quantify it, one would need to know the integral, i.e., total radioactivity released.

My guess is that it is a point spread function based on wind velocity vectors.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 30 May 2011 19:06

Since NCEP is mentioned my guess is that GFS Model (Global Forecast System) data for wind speed is used which can forward model up to 380 hours with decreasing accuracy as is expected.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 30 May 2011 19:25

GuruPrabhu wrote:^^^ Bade, I suspect that the color bar is in relative units. To quantify it, one would need to know the integral, i.e., total radioactivity released.

My guess is that it is a point spread function based on wind velocity vectors.

GuruPrabhu - This has similar title. It also gives a picture of a "high performance cluster computing system" which can make cool color graphs even in "real time" basis. If you have to ask what ( as in quantitatively, in real units and within a given accuracy) it represents, I take it that you are not impressed with all that color and stuff.

GuruPrabhu · Post by **GuruPrabhu** » 30 May 2011 19:32

Thanks, Amber G. That is a nice study - they are tracing Ar-41 with a network of towers. Apparently, the dark red traces are due to the phenomenon of coastal fumigation.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 31 May 2011 03:29

Bade,

I have no further information. It is taken from a small power-point image and was mentioned in passing there along with a map saying study has been done for response purposes.

I've never seen one for India hence posting it here. The institutes involved undoubtedly have the full data & info. I have searched BARC website but there is no mention of it that I could see. Wish there was a way to get them to release all the info.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 31 May 2011 04:04

Meanwhile, I went looking for the annual discharges from Kudankulam but it appears to be a closely guarded secret.

However, NEERI prepared the environmental impact statement for Jaitapur on behalf of BARC as required by law now. Thank god for RTI and the 2002 EIA ammendment. This is per unit so I suspect the two Kudankulam units will be higher than this.

Note that this is considered to be a safe and expected discharge level, could be higher. Some one needs to tell those villagers around Kudankulam who have been promised a 'Zero' discharge level. I really don't know what to think now.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 31 May 2011 08:06

Does India use DU (Depleted Uranium) shells? I read an old article about how Indian Armoured columns were surprised about the penetration achieved against supposedly better protected Paki Tanks in 1965 and 1971 wars. Khan suspected it should be something to do with DU Shells (Supplied SU). Bradmins, Is this is Haraam? i'll also post to Newbie thread?

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 31 May 2011 09:08

Interesting comment from Jairam Ramesh..
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/one-l ... m/797220/0

And this is the target for the 12th plan, predicated on a 9% growth rate....For all the fans of coal, super-clean coal et al...

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 31 May 2011 09:45

Theo_Fidel wrote:Meanwhile, I went looking for the annual discharges from Kudankulam but it appears to be a closely guarded secret.

Kudankulam is perhaps having military aspect also and not under IAEA safeguard. Hence such data would be kept secret. But the practice is not different in commercial NPPs where they file bare minimal data and hide behind technical terms to reduce the information dissemination. Mostly they would use Banana to indicate good effects of radiation. We might see a frog or two near Kudankulam as well.Nuclear industry has serious drawback in information aspect and expect their words to be taken at face value even when effects span generations.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 31 May 2011 09:57

Going by his erratic behaviour, either something is very wrong with Mr. Ramesh or the media is having a ball at his expense. None of the other technologies - renewable or nuclear - can be deployed to come online in time for the duration of the 12th plan. Then again, this is a meeting of the Planning Commission, which is known more for missing capacity addition targets than meeting them

.

GuruPrabhu · Post by **GuruPrabhu** » 31 May 2011 10:07

Paging Amber G -- all your efforts have come to naught. GBq is being bandied about without any understanding in the context of background radiation. Oh well, even banana training did not stick.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 31 May 2011 10:16

chaanakya wrote:Kudankulam is perhaps having military aspect also and not under IAEA safeguard. Hence such data would be kept secret

?? Kudunkulum is absolutely under IAEA safeguards...It predates the NSG exemption, and the Russians used IAEA safeguards as the fig leaf to push it through..

As for radiation and discharge - why not look at actual data, which is available from BARC, comparing against international safety limits? First of all, a report from NEERI on a reactor not yet critical is quoted, without giving any coparative benchmarks, and thena conclusion reached that actual discharge would be higher!

BTW, you dont need RTI to get NEERI reports, its openly available - NPCIL has put up the NEERI ssessment of even Jaitapur on its site..

vera_k wrote:None of the other technologies - renewable or nuclear - can be deployed to come online in time for the duration of the 12th plan. Then again, this is a meeting of the Planning Commission, which is known more for missing capacity addition targets than meeting them

PC is a thinktank - it exeutes nothing..But the point isnt about the 12th plan..The point is that if coal is struggling to meet even the next 5 years' demand, what is the great hope on it meeitng the next 10 or 15? Along the lines of discussion, on another PC report that I had posted..

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 31 May 2011 10:35

somnath wrote:
chaanakya wrote:Kudankulam is perhaps having military aspect also and not under IAEA safeguard. Hence such data would be kept secret
?? Kudunkulum is absolutely under IAEA safeguards...It predates the NSG exemption, and the Russians used IAEA safeguards as the fig leaf to push it through..

As for radiation and discharge - why not look at actual data, which is available from BARC, comparing against international safety limits? First of all, a report from NEERI on a reactor not yet critical is quoted, without giving any coparative benchmarks, and thena conclusion reached that actual discharge would be higher!
.

O K .

yes, that's a good idea. Apparently, theo did look at BARC, I haven't.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 31 May 2011 22:56

GuruPrabhu wrote:Paging Amber G -- all your efforts have come to naught. GBq is being bandied about without any understanding in the context of background radiation. Oh well, even banana training did not stick.

Oh well, I see that people are still bitter about banana training.. but seriously (

) time has come for the so called "nuke lobby" (or any one else who does not agree with 2+2 = 3999995" ) to come out clean. Let me be the first one to post the following famous points in BRF - As "some one needs to tell those villagers around Kudankulam" real truth and things much more serious than 'Zero' discharge level". (Note, it is being posted for the first time in BRF, but it is well known among all physicists - and still BARC never posted these warning. )

The radiation particles in Kudankulam (or any other particles for that matter)

===> Warps Space and Time in Its Vicinity.
===> Attracts Every Other Piece of Matter in the Universe, Including the Anit-nuke freedom fighters, with a Force Proportional to the Product of the Masses and Inversely Proportional to the Distance Between Them.
====> The Mass alone Contains the Energy Equivalent of 20 Million Tons of TNT per Net tola of Weight. (that is 2 Million Tons of TNT per gram)
====> Contains Minute Electrically Charged Particles Moving at Velocities in Excess of Five Hundred Million Miles Per Hour.
====> Through a Process Know as Tunneling, This May Spontaneously Disappear from Its Present Location and Reappear at Any Random Place in the Universe.
=====>No Liability (damn those laws) is implied but it Will Increase the Amount of Disorder in the Universe.
And most serious:
=====> In the Unlikely Event if it should Contact Antimatter in Any Form, a Catastrophic Explosion Will Result.
and
=====> This Will Ultimately Lead to the Heat Death of the Universe.

Of course, according to Brihaspatiji
=====> When No one is Observing (or calculating with 3 sig figures onlee) It May Cease to Exist or Will Exist Only in a Vague and Undetermined State.
But dangerous part is:
=====> Because of the ``Uncertainty Principle'', It Is Impossible for mango man to Find Out at the Same Time Both Precisely Where This radiation particle Is and How Fast It Is Moving.

And don't fall for that often repeated things from banana specialists..

====> It Consists Of 99.9999999999% Empty Space.

Sad part is, instead of worrying about real scientific stuff (

) people are making up stuffs like NPP causing nuclear explosions and Sievert unit being used decades before it was adopted.

Guys, above is the kind of old talk which can only scare neem-hakims. These points may be appearing in BRF for the first time but these points have been fairly popular and are all well known, so please don't take it seriously. (Calculation matters ...just as calculation matters to understand if 1 bed (.1muSV) dose is really serious).

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 31 May 2011 23:55

And coming near your theater

"Exploding Solar Panels and Super DHMO tonic"

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 01 Jun 2011 06:25

chaanakya wrote:O K .

yes, that's a good idea. Apparently, theo did look at BARC, I haven't

I am not sure about that

..anyway, all you need to do is go to the guys whose day job is to measure these things!
Here is the relevant section from the AERB annual report..
http://www.aerb.gov.in/t/annrpt/2009/chapter5.pdf

The problem with picking out random docs on google and then presuming a doomsday fear in order to conform to sloganeering stances is that actual reality is cutoff from the narrative..

Amber G has explained (for long) the "banana-impact" of these numbers - with variable impact on people (some being especially creatively "misunderstanding" with interpretations of 3 signifcant figures- wonder if they understand the basic statistical concept of "significant fig"

), but please, get the actual numbers and then arive at conclusions...Dont go about it the other way round..

GuruPrabhu · Post by **GuruPrabhu** » 01 Jun 2011 08:17

Amber G. wrote: ====> The Mass alone Contains the Energy Equivalent of 20 Million Tons of TNT per Net tola of Weight. (that is 2 Million Tons of TNT per gram)
====> Contains Minute Electrically Charged Particles Moving at Velocities in Excess of Five Hundred Million Miles Per Hour.
====> Through a Process Know as Tunneling, This May Spontaneously Disappear from Its Present Location and Reappear at Any Random Place in the Universe.
=====>No Liability (damn those laws) is implied but it Will Increase the Amount of Disorder in the Universe.

Yes, we should start an andolan to have speed limits placed on electrons and Anti-entropy-inflation measures imposed. Can the poor of India afford this continuous unchecked rise in entropy? Surely, not!

Also, tunneling should be banned under a new tougher TADA law.

Of course, according to Brihaspatiji
=====> When No one is Observing (or calculating with 3 sig figures onlee) It May Cease to Exist or Will Exist Only in a Vague and Undetermined State.
But dangerous part is:
=====> Because of the ``Uncertainty Principle'', It Is Impossible for mango man to Find Out at the Same Time Both Precisely Where This radiation particle Is and How Fast It Is Moving.

No worries. A well crafted liability law should be able to impose serious penalty on a particle "found missing". A defense based on "uncertainty" will be disbarred. All particles will have a radius of freedom and if they break that perimeter, they will be captured and a radio collar attached to them for monitoring purposes.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 01 Jun 2011 10:50

Can we please restrict the inanities to the BENIS thread? Why spoil this thread with all the meaningless rants?

===================

Meanwhile on meaningful content

http://www.hindustantimes.com/PM-to-dis ... 04326.aspx

PM to discuss N-disaster preparedness steps

While I personally think that so far GoI's reaction has been extremely muted and out of sync with rest of the world in context of Fuk-D disclosures (which is not surprising given the enormous amount of political capital that MMS invested on Nuclear energy as the binding force between US and India) -- even if this current leadership can do small steps, that is something we can thank god for.

Expecting a lot is probably pointless, even while the pressure to have a transparent and robust system continues in public space.

amit · Post by **amit** » 01 Jun 2011 11:55

Fuk-D disclosures

This is a very good description of the type of "analysis" that was going on Fukushima Daaichi thread towards the end.

I just hope the same road will not be traveled in this thread.

Meanwhile, Germany took a major step away from nuclear power with a solar power plant being connected to grid on May 27. The Green lobby (both outside as well as inside BRF) must be very happy.

I guess it's time for all of us to celebrate. However, once the celebrations are done, we can look at the small print. That says:

8.3 MW generation comes from a solar farm covering 19.3 hectares of former farmland.

But not to worry the cheerful comment in the story is:

"PV power plants of this size contribute to a high degree to our future electrical power supply. This means not only can nuclear power plants go offline but plans for new coal fired power stations will be rendered obsolete."

According to this site

In Germany (as of June 2010), 17 nuclear power plants with an electric gross output of 21,507 MW are in operation. In 2009 they generated 149 billion kWh of electricity.

I wonder how many thousands of hectares will be required to generate that kind of power via solar? Heck I've got an even simpler question: How many hectares of solar farms will be needed to run a BMW or Volkswagen plant? And of course the small detail about the cost per unit of such power is left for later.

Sorry folks, but I firmly believe that if the Germans really seriously close down their nuke plants (they have been waffling on timelines, and you know when politicians waffle) then the power generation slack will be replaced by either more coal fired plants or gas from Russia. Given the carbon concerns I'd think the latter is the more likely. No wonder Putin has been chatting up to them.

Now mortgaging its energy security to Russia, I suspect, isn't really going to be very popular in Germany. So between two unpopular decisions (the other is of course continuing with Nuclear) I wonder which way Germany will go? Any guesses?

Of course it can decide to let all electricity intense manufacturing to go off shore and revert back to a nice pastoral lifestyle. But why do I feel that's not going to be popular either?

Coming back to the Indian context, if 8.3 MW require, 19.3 hectares I wonder how much would be required to substitute Jaitapur nuclear plant with solar? I wonder if Vandana Shiva or junior Thackeray saab will requisition the necessary land for this?

Incidentally the same land argument applies to land short Japan.

Bottomline I looking forward to Japan and Germany saying No to nuclear and actually moving to close down plants, as opposed to giving political talk about doing so. For anyone who believes this talk, I have a proposition. My mother's fourth uncle's daughters' father-in-law's third sister's brother-in-law's son owns the right to the historic Howrah Bridge made from famous British Steel. He's selling it cheap and asked me to find a customer. Interested folks please let me know!

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 01 Jun 2011 12:02

^^Good catch on the German PV plant, Amit..Putin made an interesting omment somewhere, "if not nuclear, if not (Russian) gas, then what, burn firewood in Siberia?"!

Germany might be helped in this somewhat though by their energy reduction efforts - demand has been anyway stagnant there...But it would be interesting to see what they replace 21k MW ith, it will be either Russian (gas, or even electricity) or coal (but would the Greens allow that?)...Or, if Frau Merkel got to meet junior Thackrey in her visit here, she might get the idea and say -"lets import from the nuke stations in France"!!

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 01 Jun 2011 12:06

amit wrote:
Fuk-D disclosures
This is a very good description of the type of "analysis" that was going on Fukushima Daaichi thread towards the end.

I just hope the same road will not be traveled in this thread.

No Dear Amit, the above is a example of what YOU can take away from a entire set of knowledge. Just letting you know. Kindly don't confuse YOUR understanding of a thing with the real thing, it could be dangerous.

amit · Post by **amit** » 01 Jun 2011 12:21

Sanku wrote:No Dear Amit, the above is a example of what YOU can take away from a entire set of knowledge. Just letting you know. Kindly don't confuse YOUR understanding of a thing with the real thing, it could be dangerous.

OH well then all I can say is one person's Fuk-D diclosures moment is another's Nirvana!

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 01 Jun 2011 12:25

^^
You have my sympathies.

amit · Post by **amit** » 01 Jun 2011 12:28

somnath wrote:^^Good catch on the German PV plant, Amit..Putin made an interesting omment somewhere, "if not nuclear, if not (Russian) gas, then what, burn firewood in Siberia?"!

Germany might be helped in this somewhat though by their energy reduction efforts - demand has been anyway stagnant there...But it would be interesting to see what they replace 21k MW ith, it will be either Russian (gas, or even electricity) or coal (but would the Greens allow that?)...Or, if Frau Merkel got to meet junior Thackrey in her visit here, she might get the idea and say -"lets import from the nuke stations in France"!!

Actually Somnath, in the course of my work I was meeting a German delegation two days ago. I got talking to a guy and obviously I veered to discussion to nuclear power. He was an out and out Green but even he made a very interesting observation.

He said that power was not much of a worry in Germany because during summer months they were power surplus and they pumped the extra power to Eastern Europe and Southern Europe. I then asked him what was the situation during winter. He confessed that during winter, with all the heaters burning, German goes into power deficit and has to import power - not much but had to import nevertheless.

It's funny that he just realised that he had to rush up to his hotel room to make a call when I got around to asking him how solar power would fit into the matrix of surplus during summer, deficit during winter. Of course I pointed out the typical kind of weather in Germany during winters - foggy and snowy, not exactly the ideal condition to generate a lot of solar power.

amit · Post by **amit** » 01 Jun 2011 12:31

Sanku wrote:^^
You have my sympathies.

Hey, I think you again misunderstood. The Fuk-D moment is mine. If anything you should keep some sympathy for yourself.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 01 Jun 2011 12:41

amit wrote: Of course I pointed out the typical kind of weather in Germany during winters - foggy and snowy, not exactly the ideal condition to generate a lot of solar power.

Dear Amit, I really appreciate your bringing the light to poor Germans, don't even know how their country works, no doubt they have not figured out any of the above and have not made the trade off that importing some energy during winters or burning a little more Russian gas is far more preferable to having dodgy LWR based NPPs.

I am sure if you were to go and say this in Germany there would be mass pandemonium with people falling over each other to hug to you with tears of gratitude in their eyes.

amit · Post by **amit** » 01 Jun 2011 12:43

Sanku wrote:Dear Amit, I really appreciate your bringing the light to poor Germans, don't even know how their country works, no doubt they have not figured out any of the above and have not made the trade off that importing some energy during winters or burning a little more Russian gas is far more preferable to having dodgy LWR based NPPs.

I am sure if you were to go and say this in Germany there would be mass pandemonium with people falling over each other to hug to you with tears of gratitude in their eyes.

Sanku,

Wake me up when the Germans actually close down their nuke plants. We can discuss then.

Incidentally your dodgy LWR argument has long gone passed its use by date. If you care to read up a bit you'll find the German Green lobby was campaigning for abolishing nuclear power long before Fukushima happened and their campaign was/is not based on the specious dodgy LWR balderdash. The German Greens will not rush in to buy your super dooper safe PHWRs either.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 01 Jun 2011 12:52

amit wrote: Wake me up when the Germans actually close down their nuke plants. We can discuss then.

Not to worry Amit, I have full confidence that you wont be waking up ever. I am sure I wont be the one waking you up.

Incidentally your dodgy LWR argument has long gone passed its use by date. If you care to read up a bit you'll find the German Green lobby was campaigning for abolishing nuclear power long before Fukushima happened and their campaign was not based on the specious dodgy LWR balderdash.

Yes yes of course all balderdash Amit, they are just as safe as bananas. The issues brought to light by the Fuk-D tragedy and the decision to close down plants in Japan, Germany and elsewhere is purely coincidental.

Absolutely.

amit · Post by **amit** » 01 Jun 2011 12:55

Sanku wrote:the decision to close down plants in Japan, Germany and elsewhere is purely coincidental.

Absolutely.

The "decision to close down" bladerdash is a classic example of Fuk-D'ing with facts. In Japan one plant has been temporarily shut down pending building more robust defences against tsunamis and the Germans have been talking about closing down their old nuclear plants instead of going for a life extension that had been touted by Frau Merkel. But they haven't yet actually started the process of clsing down a single plant yet.

Can you list the number of plants that have been closed down forever after Fukushima accident?

BTW all this is good entertainment.

arnab · Post by **arnab** » 01 Jun 2011 13:00

amit wrote:
Can you list the number of plants that have been closed down forever after Fukushima accident?

BTW all this is good entertainment.

Amit this thread is getting s-fied again

Considering Russia / China / India are increasing their nuke-energy mix, not sure what is being implied here. And 'dodgy LWR' for a 'given level of safety'. Somebody should ask Sanku ji if Indian PHWRs would have survived the prolonged LOCA at Fuk-D caused by the Tsunami.

amit · Post by **amit** » 01 Jun 2011 13:30

arnab wrote:Amit this thread is getting s-fied again

I agree and with Fuk-D'ed arguments to boot. I shall cease and desist, you tend to get sucked into this without even knowing.

BTW on a more serious note, did you see the report I posted about the solar plant in Germany which got connected to the grid? 8.3 MW from 19.3 hectares! I was doing the math for 21k MW that the Germans generate from nuclear and trying to gauge how many hectares would be required to match that output. And anyone whose been to Germany would noted that my point about foggy, cloudy and snowy days when the sun barely shines is not a trivial observation.

Also coal produces far more electricity even in Germany. I think CO2 emissions figure higher in the agenda of the Greens than nuclear. So it would be interesting to see what they do in Germany.

And in the case of India we come back to the same argument about solar. Leaving generation and maintenance costs aside, where the heck will all the land for the solar farms be found? Sorry but less or no nuclear only means more coal fired plants. And this again leads to the point about the coal economy which has been posted by you and Somnath, among others.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 01 Jun 2011 13:40

Meanwhile

Amit this thread is getting s-fied again Considering Russia / China / India are increasing their nuke-energy mix, not sure what is being implied here. And 'dodgy LWR' for a 'given level of safety'. Somebody should ask Sanku ji if Indian PHWRs would have survived the prolonged LOCA at Fuk-D caused by the Tsunami.

That is why I strongly urge people to actually read with a open mind.

Firstly there was no "prolonged" LOCA before the LWRs melted down. The data has been posted, if a few hours is the definition of prolonged then we are in for serious trouble.

Secondly Tsunami only had a small role in Fuk-D disaster. The earthquake had already done a big job prior to that.

The above points are already covered.

==========

So in nut shell, would I put a PWHR is Japan? I probably wont and GoI over last 60 years seems to agree with not putting NPPs in high seismic zones.

Having said that, yes PWHRs would have survived much longer and in that time corrective action could have been taken.

===========

And try and avoid being very childish, I know that some of you have no content to add and make statements which end up getting pulled apart due to lack of basis, however one must avoid the temptation to call names and generally rave and rant to compensate for that.

Very sophomore.