Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 2011

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Shrinivasan
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Shrinivasan »

VikasRaina wrote:^ But ramana ji, isn't the timing bit odd or is it that like Capos family, they no longer care because no one knows what is happening inside the cesspool called ISI? They could have killed SSS in so many innovative ways rather than kidnapping him first by their own goons and throwing his lifeless dead body in a typical cheap potboiler fashion.
Anyways RIP SSS.
You got it, Capo style, by killing and dumping SSS's body in public, they are sending a message to other journalist to midh their business. Just yesterday I saw a Western TV Journalist who went to Abottabad being literally shoved aside, he was a clear 200M from the gate and all this on camera...

probably the downward spiral has started... :twisted:
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by sanjaykumar »

An ancient word for female genitals is "puti" which is very close to Punjabi colloquial "phuddi". Also the source for Latin "pudendum" (female genitalia).

Interestingly the Punjabi word for girl is "kudi" which is suspiciously close to Tamil "koodi". The girl-genitalia connection also exists in the word "aurat" (woman) which also means shame and genitalia.


Some false etymology here. An example would be to claim that aurat comes from ek aur raat, seemingly reasonable but non the less specious.

Pudendal refers to 'something to be ashamed of', not female genitalia.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Gagan »

I think we are headed for another phase of the US distancing itself from Pakistan like in the 70s after zia-ul-haq got the US embassy burnt down in Pakistan.
Once the US is done with its 4 targets and have made some sort of government in Kabul with the Taleban and most of the pashtoons, they will give up active engagement with pakistan.

Obama has more pressing needs to take care of the US economy. And the way the US has cut down on wasteful expenditure is very instructive on how the US intends to behave in the coming years.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by VikramS »

@Laibaah Laiba Ahmad Marri
While you Mr @declanwalsh provide generous coverage to some known friends of ISI, u ignore the Parachinar blockade by ISI-Taliban @guardian
[@tahirmalik786I am sure he told you the first hand account of how Taliban / Haqqani network are surrounding Parachinar @MaulaBuksh
@AliDayan Sir, I wonder why post-OBL backlash on Shia Muslims in Quetta remained ignored by Pakistani/foreign media as well as by @HRW
Last edited by VikramS on 01 Jun 2011 09:56, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by rajanb »

An email doing the rounds. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:










Ministry of Foreign Affairs

Pakistan

The following is the text of a briefing on the recent tragic events in Abbottabad given by the official spokesman to the international media:

“How could we not have known where OBL was? As you know, there are known knowns and unknown knowns. You do know that, don’t you? There are things we know we know, like which side of our naan is buttered. Ghee actually: clarified butter. We like things to be clarified, which is what we’re doing now. But there are other things that we don’t know we know. These are things buried deep in the rubble of our subconscious, like the Mossad agents under the debris of the twin towers they brought down. So we didn’t know that we knew where OBL was. Or didn’t know when we were asked if we knew.

When we said OBL wasn't in Pakistan we weren't lying. You just don't understand how tough a neighbourhood we live in. None of our borders is settled. Afghanistan claims Pakhtunkhwa, the Indians won't give us Kashmir, we've given up part of the Northern Areas to China. We just don't know where Pakistan begins and where it ends. Honestly. And it’s a canard to say that Britain is girdled by the sea, Pakistan by the C-in-C. Or that India runs from coast to coast, Pakistan from COAS to COAS. Hindu libels. OK? Truth is we didn't know Abbottabad was in Pakistan.

How could we? Abbottabad? In a pure Muslim country? A town that sounds like an abbey? I ask you. Of course we thought it didn't belong to us. Would we have kept calling it Abbottabad if we'd known it was ours? These old colonial names are like pork; we don’t want to put them in our mouths. We turned Lyallpur into Faisalabad, the Lawrence Gardens into the Bagh-e-Jinnah. We'd have given Abbottabad a good Muslim name, something like Oblistan, if we thought it belonged to us.

Why did the Pakistan Army have its academy and so many establishments there then? You know how our Army is. It keeps going into places that don't belong to Pakistan. It's a tradition it started in 1947. Doesn't mean that because the Pakistan Army's there it's part of Pakistan.

But the Americans did find OBL there and kill him and the Pakistan Army was all around him. So how did the Army not know when the Americans did? But of course we knew he was there, but we knew him as Abu Abdullah. If you'd asked us, Do you know where Abu Abdullah is, we'd have told you. You never did. We wonder why. Was it to make Pakistan look bad later? You didn’t know that he was called Abu Abdullah? How could you not have known? You expect us to believe that?

We also thought he was dead. Earlier, well before the Americans arrived. Why? Because over the last five years we've delivered well over 72 virgins to that house. So we thought he'd been martyred already.

We didn’t know Abu Abdullah was a Saudi Sheikh. Crescent my heart and hope to dye, like our President does. We knew OBL was a Saudi Sheikh, but they only come to Pakistan in the winter to hunt for the houbara. ******** in full hawk after bustards. They don’t go to Abbottabad, they go straight to Rahim Yar Khan, so that’s where we looked out for him. All the doctors who treat the young boys there the morning after are ISI agents, and have asked each one of them if they felt something holy had entered them the night before. The Sheikh is, as you know, a holy man. But, alas, they all said that there was nothing holy about what had been done to them.

We thought we’d dropped enough hints about where Abu Abdullah was. Abu, abbot – the same root. We said he was a holy man, you said he was a bad man, so he was a common oxymoron, a bad holy man. That’s why we kept him in Abbot-a-bad. We thought you’d have understood. Where would you find a malignant evangelist? Churchill. A promiscuous prioress? Nuneaton. Not our fault if the penny didn’t drop. Which reminds us: could you spare a dime?

Why? Because we are one of the countries hit hardest by global warming. That’s what the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change says, though it’s run by an Indian. And it’s happening faster than anyone anticipated. First the Americans warming up with the baniyas, and now seals in Abbottabad. What next? We need billions fast. At least give us the 25 million you put on OBL’s head. If we hadn’t looked after him, he’d have died shivering in a cave in Tora-Bora, no one would have found him, and you wouldn’t have been able to pull off this stunt. So be grateful. That’s all we ask.

And now of course you’ve killed him while he was saying his sehri prayers. Yes, yes, that’s why he didn’t have a gun with him. You know what this means of course. The US President has holy blood on his hands. Obama sin laden. And then we’re told that OBL was taken out to Carl bin Son and dropped into the sea: that’s a giveaway. How can this Carl be the son of his son? Nonsense. These last rites carried out in such indecent haste: we know where his body is. He’s been taken to Canter-bury. That’s where meddling priests are quickly buried, aren’t they?

Of course we saw the helicopters coming in. Our radar system is the best in the world. In 1998, just before we tested our bombs, we saw Israeli ground-attack planes on tarmacs in India that no one else could see, and told the UN. Ask the Indians if you don’t believe us. So why didn't we shoot the helicopters down? Well you see, like the rest of you, we knew that Will and Kate hadn't announced where they were going to honeymoon, and we thought this might be them coming in on the quiet to give the slip to the paparazzi. Can't blame us, can you? Abbottabad seems like the sort of place that someone who'd just been dubbed the Baron Carrickfergus might wish to escape to. (They can still come, you know. There’s a des-res with all the mod-cons that’s just come on the market. Has its own helipad. Lovely place to get away from it all.)

And of course we knew there was something going on at the compound that night. You really believe that the ISI wouldn’t know if there was a firefight raging half a mile from our military academy in Abbottabad, even if we thought that it wasn’t in Pakistan. We had a secure two-way link with Abu Abdullah that the Americans never picked up. Two empty non-alcoholic beer cans with the tops cut out and tied with string. So when the Americans came through the door, we heard him yelling “May Day, May Day”. Why didn’t we help? Well at first we thought he was stating the obvious; we knew it was May Day. Then someone said he was probably speaking in Bengali and asking for girls, but it was quite late and we didn’t think we’d find any.

Why would he be speaking in Bengali? Well you know he has had time hanging heavy on his hands, and might have wanted to pick up a foreign language. Besides, this is the 150th birth anniversary of Rabindranath Tagore, if you didn’t know, and OBL looked so like him that all the jihadis from Bangladesh would fall at his feet and call him Gurudev. Maybe, who knows, he’d started to believe that he was a reincarnation. Utterly Hindu of course, and no wonder he got his just desserts.

Yes, and OF COURSE we picked up the yells of "Geronimo EKIA". You know it's an Indian name. That's what the Americans say. Always knew he was an Indian, that b****rd. And you know what the SEALs actually reported, don't you? They said "26/11 Geronimo ne kia". 9/11, 26/11, all Indian plots. Thank god our good friends the Americans now know the truth. We've known it all along."

Hope it isn't O/T for this thread. If so, no more.
Last edited by rajanb on 01 Jun 2011 10:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Raja Ram »

On the motive of the PNS Mehran attack. It might be interesting to see if there was any reference to Mehran in any published documents on Pakistani Nuclear facilities. It would also be interesting to see if any official from the Strategic Plans Division of PA was based there or any nuclear capability related facility was based there.

The P3C Orions may well be a red herring and the real thing that the attackers were after was something else. From what we understand from public sources, there are clearly seperated attributes of nuclear weapons capability, the devices, the warheads, the delivery (F16s and a missiles) that have to come together. The coming together is through PALs.

From what we also understand there is some sort of American oversight on this. Could the American technicians in Mehran be part of that contingent? The Chinese presence in Mehran could have been related to design or device to be given to Pakistani Navy of a tactical nature. Maybe some sort of nuclear torpedo.

It could be that this was leaked by sections within the PN and the assault could have been organized by Jehadi Network to procure them as a means of revenge against OBL. If this was indeed true, then the USG and its allies would have taken this very seriously and would have clamped down on Pakistan. That they have chosen to be silent makes this seem to not a correct hypothesis.

It could also have been an assault done by powers that do not want Pakistan to gain a new capability and they may have used a combination of mercernaries and infilitrated forces within Jehadi Network to demolish this new nuclear capability in PN with plausible deniability. The same silence and muted reaction from USG could well be a pointer that this could be a possibility.

Not sure whether SSS killing is linked to this. It could be that SSS knew about the attacks purpose and success of it and was threatening to write about it.

What is indeed intriguing is the black out on what really happened during the attack. There was some hostage taking for sure. There were some who escaped as well. This is turning out to be one interesting mystery like the Kunduz Airlift during Afghan War.

It deserves more attention and probing gentle rakshaks. Just a thought.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Gagan »

The problem for the US all these years was that they didn't have clearly defined end points for this conflict. But then when have they ever had one since after WW2?

They rush headlong into a conflict because it is popular back home to do so, the mil-industrial complex cheers from the sidelines, and soon the US gets mired in the local problems.

Something similar happened with the IPKF in sri lanka.

For good or bad for the people in Af-Pak, the US seems to finally have set a goal for itself and will try to quickly achieve it.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Gagan »

For good or bad for the people in Af-Pak, the US seems to finally have set a goal for itself and will try to quickly achieve it.

That leaves Pakistan in bigger trouble than when this whole thing started. I like that part.
Just before 9/11, Pakistan was under sanctions, and with a broke economy, defaulting on its loans from international lenders.

Here we are a decade odd later, Pakistan is still broke, its loans have been rescheduled, it is getting no further loans, the US is angry, its international partner (china) is professing support but is clearly ambivalent, and now the Jihadis are in full flow and determined to come to power in Pakistan.

In the interim Pakistan got $20billion from just the US. It could have gotten almost anything it wanted! It literally had the keys to the world when Mushy decided to cooperate with the US. Instead what did the Generals, the Bureaucrats and the Politicians do? These guys really really had to keep those terrorists for use against India and in J&K? This need was more than the survival of Pakistan itself?

Pakistan is not just crazy, they are suicidal crazy. The best treatment for suicidal tendencies is electroconvulsive therapy, and that is exactly what Pakistan is going to get in the days and months ahead.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by kmkraoind »

The PNS Mehran attack IMO was an US operation. My CT is here.

Libyan Gaddafi was unable to resist NATO raids and now they are starting hitting very hard. Gaddafi foresaw only UN sanctions after uprising in Egypt had started, so he emptied all billions and whatever bullion he had to safe places in Libya.

Now the NATO started exertional threat to him and his family and he started to avenge it.

He resuscitated old rogue contacts in Pakistani ISI and requested a JDAM or nukes and in return Gaddafi had promised handsome hard a$$ets. Gaddafi intended it to use in an European nation.

On second thought, he thought it will be impossible to smuggle on heightened tensions, so he needed a delivery platform for it. Since moving ballistic missiles would draw CIA and RAW suspicion, Pakis tested rockets that can launch nukes (though Indian cold start doctrine was started in 2001 after Parliament attack, probably it had been perfected 5-6 years after that, so that rocket launched nuke to deter Indian cold start doctrine is BS). Probably the NASR is quickened its operation so that Gaddafi can launch from its shore to an European destination.

ISI devised a plan and it will be impossible to smuggle a nuke or JDAM directly to Libya. They first decided to ferry it to Egypt and the plan was to smuggle it into Libya with the help of disgruntled Egyptian commanders who are not comfortable with the recent color revolution. Since moving a rocket system, some unknown payload, new P3-C Orion to Egypt in the guise of military exercise would not draw unnecessary attention.

US caught the wind of it from its moles who have deeply penetrated in ISI, and military branches of Pak. US wanted to thwart this attempt (but cannot openly disclose the Paki’s nuke misadventure, because it would bring hostilities to front and still it is not ready to scarify its geopolitical schemes in the region).

US preparations:
- US had assembled its best Afgan trainees so that even if they caught US can escape from any wrongdoing.
- US activated its moles in PN, so that they can degrade any active surveillance.
- US had stationed its intelligence agents in base, so that they can actively guide the commands to Chinese locations and in future to preempt any of its involvement.

First the commands retrieved some nukes from aircraft and destroyed P-3C Orions to destroy any evidence and to give Pakis a tight slap on the face. Then they abducted the Chinese for bargain for safe passage and escaped with material into the wilderness of Karachi.

The Paki establishment (say some sane political and military) later the learned the coup and counter coup. Now, India, China, Russia and Europe had learned the entire episode. In panic Paki establishment had sent its top echelons to all big powers, i.e. Zardari to Russia, Gilani to China, and some others to Europe.

Aftermath:
- US had never condemned the incident, because it knows what is going from the beginning.
- NATO had attacked Libyan targets ferociously that no one expected and that for an unknown reason.
- Suddenly our PM is starting Paki's nuke safety.
- Sudden fastening of Mumbai attack case in US.
- Clinton rapping Paki establishment.
- Sudden change of KSA attitude to India.
- Egyptian FM in India.
- Sudden acceleration of MRCA.
- Suddenly Paki rapprochement with India with MFN status, Siachin and Sir creek dialogue.
- Chips are down for China too and is actively pursuing Yuan strengthening.

I cannot give exact timeline, but either Pakis need to giveup its 72 houri attitude to prepare for balkanization.

End of my theory.
Last edited by kmkraoind on 01 Jun 2011 10:33, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Narad »

Mullah seems well versed in Islamsutra :mrgreen:

Gagan saar, thanks for the explanation.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Gagan »

Raja Ram ji,
PNS mehran is not a known site for Nuclear Weapons storage.
there is a weapons and missile depot close to PAF Masoor that has a special enclosure for nuclear weapons.

So it is assumed that the Mirages at PAF Masoor might carry the nukes or that the MRBMs possibly at the weapons depot might deliver them.

But then that means that the Pakistan Navy is not yet equipped with nukes. I wonder it the PN chief has made any claims to the effect that the PN is N-capable. The usual references were that they will somehow equip a sub to carry the babur cruise missile which will be N-tipped.
Or they could equip one of the Maritime Surviellence planes to deliver them, but this would not be a good choice.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by VikramS »

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ ... story.html
Mending relations with Pakistan



Seems GUBO has worked.

The 4 week period of mourning seems to be over.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Raja Ram »

Gagan

I understand that PNS Mehran was never a facility (at least declared publicly or mentioned as one)for nuclear weapons storage. It could have been a delivery mechanism for PN that was being developed there with Chinese help. It could have been some designs or something connected to strategic assets of PA. That is why I was interested to know if Mehran was mentioned in any Strategic Plans Division published documentation or if any SPD personnel were based there.

We all may be way of the mark, but one thing is certain, the relative silence and muted reactions of USG and GOI seem to suggest that something more dramatic has happened in that attack that has jolted Pakistan as much as the OBL hunt and kill did. What is it? That is what I am trying to find out if possible.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Gagan »

Yes sir, the lentils are black for sure.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by a_kumar »

Pakistan's shadowy secret service, the ISI : BBC

Dated May 3rd, not sure if it got the necessary attention!
Similar Western doubts over the ISI's loyalties have been a recurring theme in recent years.

In documents leaked in April 2011 on the Wikileaks website, US authorities described the ISI as a "terrorist" organisation on a par with al-Qaeda and the Taliban.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Sanku »

CRamS wrote:
Brad Goodman wrote:Pakistan is not our ally
I enjoyed the TSP bashing in this, but I was troubled a tad at the reference to India in the context of a zero sum game between India & TSP. In other words, relations with India should be on its own merit and not because of a need to stick it to TSP if it doesn't behave. Likewise, TSP ought to be treated as terrorist abomination irrespective of US relations with India.
Trust CRamS to always look at the bright side. :mrgreen:

================

Seriously speaking -- We need more of Indians like CRamS, truly.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Shrinivasan »

Suppiah wrote:
Brad Goodman wrote:Pakistan is not our ally

Supan allah I wish more average joe's think like him
It is of utmost importance that small town folks like this get adequate support and encouragement. They are the ones that change American politics and its direction.

Request BRFits living in that area send in letters of support, comments, what not...a crate of beer (not the American bud muck, some genuine stuff) would definitely be great :D
Guys, tag it and post it in Facebook, twitter etc... give it utmost publicity. also if possible in other social media....
I have done my solemn duty...
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by CRamS »

VikramS wrote:http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ ... story.html
Mending relations with Pakistan
I love the art of telling lies without actually telling one. US media is brilliant at that. Why can't they just come out and say that no matter what crime TSP commits, their need to keep the next-door SDREs boxed is of far more geo-political importance to USA than punishing TSP for any terrorist transgressions against the west (LET of course is excluded because as MMSJi himself said, all he wants from TSPA is to have "effective control" over LET :-)). Instead all this dancing around about how crucial an all-lie TSP is in the so called GWOT.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by CRamS »

Sanku wrote: Seriously speaking -- We need more of Indians like CRamS, truly.
Are you castigating me? :-). All I am saying is that Amercians can't seem to let go off playing India & TSP against each other :-).
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Sanku »

CRamS wrote:
Sanku wrote: Seriously speaking -- We need more of Indians like CRamS, truly.
Are you castigating me? :-). All I am saying is that Amercians can't seem to let go off playing India & TSP against each other :-).
No you can be wee little less paranoid just this once, I am applauding you Sir. :)
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Gagan »

SSridhar-ji
What did you write in your response to the fleece article.
Is it possible to post it here?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Shrinivasan »

VikramS wrote:http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ ... story.html Mending relations with Pakistan
There article is pure drivel... hope this doesn't become the norm for US journalist... I am trying to find who wrote this article... looks like some Paki has written it.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Anujan »

What Pakistan's ISI doesn't want the world to know about Osama bin Laden's couriers
Pakistan’s intelligence agencies swooped in to detain cousins and other close relatives of the couriers from Kotkai, a village in Pakistan’s mountainous Shangla district last week – weeks after Mr. bin Laden’s death on May 2. A similar raid in the city of Lahore picked up a handful of relatives.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by shravan »

Militants attack checkpost in Upper Dir, 7 security personnel killed

DIR: Seven security officials were killed when Afghan militants attacked a checkpost in Upper Dir on Wednesday.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Narad »

^^^ Seems to be a local conflict and not an IED mubarak.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by VikramS »

@oOol_JaLoOl Ahmed Siddiqui
DG rangers, 2 capt, 1 col were abboard helicopter. Crashed near multan. Army choper crashed near multan


cheenum: This is an editorial, sanctioned by the editorial board. It is coming after Hillary's visit so it is a preview of what is coming, assuming the TSPA give in to the US demands.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by VikramS »

Najam Sethi says that they did not mean to kill SSS. He seems to have suffered a gun-shot wound some time ago in his chest. It seems his captor ended up breaking his ribs not realizing that he had lingering wounds there. Most probably that led to a lung collapse and his death. He says that is why his captors dumped him in panic in the canal...

http://www.pkaffairs.com/Play_Show_Aapa ... 2011_15049
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by harbans »

Curious what Sethi's source on this is, though it is probable and maybe it's what the coroner says and could make out. It's been hard to try and connect S3s murder with events. But why also go to the extent of breaking ribs. That's pretty dangerous too, most car deaths are due to broken ribs puncturing lungs.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by sum »

67 per cent Pakistanis want Islamisation of society
As many as 67 per cent Pakistanis want the government to take steps for Islamisation, which is a clear indication that they have lost faith in the existing system.

According to a survey carried out by Gilani Research Foundation, 31 per cent people want the government to take steps for Islamisation immediately, however, 48 per cent think that the needed steps should be taken one by one.

People approached for survey had been asked: “In your opinion should the government take steps to Islamise the society?”

These findings clearly show that the claims made by various elements that Pakistan should be a secular state are totally baseless and contrary to the wishes of the people
, The Nation reports.
That 31 per cent people want ‘immediate’ steps for Islamisation means that they are totally disappointed with the ability of the existing system to solve their problems and want to switch over to the Islamic system, for the sake of which the country had been created in 1947.

The 48 per cent people, who want a gradual approach, also pin their hopes on the Islamic system, but want it to be introduced gradually, which ostensibly means that they think any hasty steps might have the potential to backfire.
AoA... TSP is a great "secular, moderate" country indeed..
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Singha »

they shall surely get what they want. sooner the better.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by JE Menon »

>>The over Rs 3 crore it takes per day to sustain our troops in Siachen is not prohibitive.

And this makes all the difference :D - and it is going to get less and less prohibitive as time goes by, and eventually with combination of newer techs across the spectrum the future generations of Siachen guardians will feel less of the pinch from the various factors (weather, altitude, etc.) that affect them now. I can foresee a day when having the Siachen pin will not be such a big deal among soldiers any more because things have gotten so normal.
SSridhar
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by SSridhar »

Gagan wrote:SSridhar-ji
What did you write in your response to the fleece article.
Is it possible to post it here?
I didn't save what I posted there. Essentially, I said that at last I have seen an article that called a spade as it must be called. I said that it was a nuclear-weapon country Pakistan that has become the terrorism epicentre of the world too and it has been involved in at least 150 terror incidents all over the world since 9/11. It was the US' tactical needs that made it turn a blind eye for many years but the US can depend upon India to undo the damage provided the US takes significant steps. It is the US support that is keeping Pakistan alive. Words to that effect.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by harbans »

Interesting exploratory article in Toilet by Shawn Gregory, U of Bradford.
We are used to the idea of delinquent youth, who exhibit a propensity for violence, a disregard for rules, who are corrupt and avaricious, who dissemble, and who keep bad company. But is there such a thing as a delinquent state? We certainly see in Pakistan a state apparatus that has a propensity for both internal and external violence, initiating conflicts with its neighbours and using violence to address many of its internal challenges. We certainly see in Pakistan a state that often pays no more than lip service to the duties and constraints of its own constitution and legal systems or to its obligations under international law. We certainly see in Pakistan a corrupt and avaricious ruling elite who pay few taxes and benefit disproportionately from Pakistan's economic activity and international aid. We certainly see endless dissembling from Pakistan's rulers. We certainly see —from Osama Bin Laden to Mullah Omar, by way of Hafiz Saeed, Zakir-ur-Rehman Lakhvi, Ayman al Zawahiri, Rashid Rauf, Omar Saeed Sheikh, Dawood Ibrahim, Qari Saifullah Akhtar, Sajid Mir, Abu Qahfa, Mazhar Iqbal, and many others —that Pakistan keeps bad company.

As Anthony Burgess implied so brilliantly in "A Clockwork Orange", the pertinent points for the delinquent state, as for delinquent youth, are whether the delinquency is the result of nature or nurture, and whether the answers to this question offer any thoughts about how the delinquent might be helped along the difficult path to normalcy.

For Pakistan this argument distils to the question of whether the core of its problems are to be found in its "nature", that is to say in its unique interplay of Islam, military praetorianism, South Asian forms of corruption, and immutable geopolitical realities; or whether they are to be found in the "nurture" of the state, in particular of being born the bloody child of British colonialism, and raised in the context of burgeoning Indian power and self-serving and often indiscriminate US intervention.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home ... 630720.cms
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by amit »

JE Menon wrote:>>The over Rs 3 crore it takes per day to sustain our troops in Siachen is not prohibitive.

And this makes all the difference :D - and it is going to get less and less prohibitive as time goes by, and eventually with combination of newer techs across the spectrum the future generations of Siachen guardians will feel less of the pinch from the various factors (weather, altitude, etc.) that affect them now. I can foresee a day when having the Siachen pin will not be such a big deal among soldiers any more because things have gotten so normal.
JEM,

Another point about Siachen. It has given India a wonderful base camp for high altitude acclimatisation for our soldiers and a place to test out and develop technologies for high altitude survival.

All this is important because if we fight the Chinis most of the fighting will be at high altitudes.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by VikramS »

harbansji:

What Sethi was saying that area of his body (chest) was already very weak because of the bullet injury he was still recovering from. As a result it did not take much for the ribs to break. He says that most probably the goons did not know that he had a bullet wound.

Sethi also threw is some personal narrative to boost his credentials. Said that when the agencies had captured him, they took him to a point where he could not breath any more. He said he had also suffered a heart attack but the goons had no idea of how much too push him.

He said that the goons are typical third degree experts who have little knowledge when to stop.

I kinda agree with him. If they truly intended to halal SSS, they might have kept him in a safe house and squeezed him for all the information they could gather out of him. This looks more like a case of a "break a leg" hit turning into some thing else. There were also reports that his face had a lot of marks. That is more an indication of some one trying to send a message by fixing the bootha than some one truly intending to kill.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by sum »

^^ But does it mean that the last SSS article was not a ISI plant and was actual truth( about PN frogman arrested, Al-Q and PN talks etc)? Most of BRF had written off that article as a ISI plant...
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Dipanker »

CRamS wrote:
Sanku wrote: Seriously speaking -- We need more of Indians like CRamS, truly.
Are you castigating me? :-). All I am saying is that Amercians can't seem to let go off playing India & TSP against each other :-).
They have been doing this since 50's.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by chilarai »

amit wrote:
JE Menon wrote:>>The over Rs 3 crore it takes per day to sustain our troops in Siachen is not prohibitive.

And this makes all the difference :D - and it is going to get less and less prohibitive as time goes by, and eventually with combination of newer techs across the spectrum the future generations of Siachen guardians will feel less of the pinch from the various factors (weather, altitude, etc.) that affect them now. I can foresee a day when having the Siachen pin will not be such a big deal among soldiers any more because things have gotten so normal.
JEM,

Another point about Siachen. It has given India a wonderful base camp for high altitude acclimatisation for our soldiers and a place to test out and develop technologies for high altitude survival.

All this is important because if we fight the Chinis most of the fighting will be at high altitudes.

It has already gotten much better than the 80s

from http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 110531.htm
Over the years, at enormous cost in dead and injured, the Indian Army has developed enormous skill at surviving at "super altitudes".

In the 1980s, casualties from frostbite and altitude sickness ran in the hundreds. By the end of the last decade, they were down to 20-22 per year. During the last eight years, nobody has died. Today, barely 10-12 soldiers are evacuated annually.
Last edited by chilarai on 01 Jun 2011 14:37, edited 1 time in total.
shiv
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by shiv »

VikramS wrote:harbansji:

What Sethi was saying that area of his body (chest) was already very weak because of the bullet injury he was still recovering from. As a result it did not take much for the ribs to break. He says that most probably the goons did not know that he had a bullet wound.

Sethi also threw is some personal narrative to boost his credentials. Said that when the agencies had captured him, they took him to a point where he could not breath any more. He said he had also suffered a heart attack but the goons had no idea of how much too push him.

He said that the goons are typical third degree experts who have little knowledge when to stop.

I kinda agree with him. If they truly intended to halal SSS, they might have kept him in a safe house and squeezed him for all the information they could gather out of him. This looks more like a case of a "break a leg" hit turning into some thing else. There were also reports that his face had a lot of marks. That is more an indication of some one trying to send a message by fixing the bootha than some one truly intending to kill.
For those who are interested Sethi starts saying all that at 13 minutes 50 seconds into that 35 minute video. It is actually a difficult story to believe. After a man dies only a post mortem examination could say that the cause of death (or one of the causes of death) could be as described by Sethi - a lung collapse. A post mortem would be able to tell whether there are additional injuries like a brain injury of windpipe injury from strangulation. Sethi is subdued and unconvincing to me.

But the "explanation" that it was a weak spot and they did not know is masala that Sethi may have added for his own safety.

As any sportsman who has broken a bone will know - once the bone is fully set - it is back to normal. There is an interim phase of maybe 4 to 12 weeks when the bone is "weaker" than normal but by 6 months all should be normal. So unless the gunshot wound was in the last 3-4 months I doubt if SSS had a "weak area" that the goons unwittingly hit. Goons will do damage even to normal bones. Sethi says the injury was 6 months to 1 year ago. It is difficult to believe his explanation and I think both he and the "eager to agree with him" TV interviewer have been warned not to say anything that implicates the agencies. He is at pains to explain away third degree treatment as "normal" and quite OK and the TV interviewer readily agrees. This is definitely the Pakistan we know about.

It is sad and pathetic to see Sethi describe his own treatment. He says he was bound, beaten and gagged and he could barely breathe and he had a heart attack and he survived by Allah's grace. He is too afraid and too intimidated to fight. I don't blame him. I would probably be shitting brix myself in his position.

Prominent murders in Pakistan are handled cursorily if they are by the agencies- army/ISI. Benazir Bhutto was initially said to have died after hitting her head against a sun roof lever - and the whole area was hosed clean.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by krishnan »

http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 110601.htm
The United States has given Pakistan a deadline till July to launch a military offensive in the restive North Waziristan tribal region for capturing five most wanted al-Qaeda and Taliban terrorists, including Ayman al-Zawahiri, Mullah Omar and Ilyas Kashmiri.

Pakistani security forces have been asked to capture al-Zawahiri, Omar, Kashmiri, Sirajuddin Haqqani and Atia Abdur Rehman either in a unilateral or joint military action within the deadline till July -- the month when North Atlantic Treaty Organisation and allied forces will begin withdrawing from neighbouring Afghanistan.

The US demand has set alarm bells ringing in Pakistani civil and military circles, The News daily reported on Wednesday, quoting unnamed sources. Pakistan's security forces had so far shown reluctance in launching a military offensive in North Waziristan despite sustained pressure from the US to do so.
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