Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 01 Jun 2011 14:35

Pratyush wrote:The translation of Ramayana by Rajeev Menon also has a mention of a story from Malyalam Ramayan where it is mentioned that Sita is the daughter of Mandadori and Ravan. She was hidden by Mandadori to deny Ravan of the Daughter that he craved and did not have.

The instance of Hunaman confusing Mandodri with Sita in Ravan's bedchamber is used as a coroboration of the Mandadori / Sita relationship by Mr Menon in that particular version of the Ramayan.

The Banishment of Sita from Ayodhya is some thing that is not very easily explained by pure logic. She was made to under go Agni Pariksha in front of every one in Lanka, in order to proove her purity. Before under going the Agni Pariksha, Mandadori suggests to Sita that is is our lot to endure such hard ships on a nearly daily basis.

Yet Sita was exiled by Ram at the say so of another man. When he could have easily defended her by saying that she has been tested and she has been found to be pure. But that did not happen.

I think that the banishment of Sita is a latter addition to Ramayan, with a diliberate intention of making people question the perfectless of Ram through his conduct towards Sita through this episode.

I say this due to the compact ness and the free flowing narrative in the main book and the dis jointness of the Uttar Ramayan. Its like they are two seperate stories by two seperat men.

My mom has a different explaination then this. She says that, Vishnu was cursed that he will be seperated from his consort and will have to spend time without her. For a god in heaven where he has an eternity, he cannot bear seperation from his consort. However, where he is a man having a finite amount of time in this world, the seperation however painfull will end with his death. Therefore, beconmming endurable.

She supports her point by saying that even Krisha was seperated from Radha when he left Gokul for Mathura and the Siddharth leaving his wife and child to attain Bodhitsva.

It is Part of Valmiki Ramyana, but the other facts are not mentioned like as per Ramyana, Rama Rajyam lasted 11,000 years and Sita Banishment was done after 10,000 years of Rule. Its upto each person whether to belive what is in Ramyana whether life in Treta Yuga was that long. Anyways Narayana and Laxmi are always together in Vaikuntam. However, the most authetic Ramayana is Valmiki Ramayana- however, given today very few people today can read and write Sanskrit with any degree of Authority and not too many proper Gurus, we are all left to the mercies of the Translator from Sankrit to other Languages.

niran · Post by **niran** » 01 Jun 2011 16:40

Pratyush wrote: Yet Sita was exiled by Ram at the say so of another man. When he could have easily defended her by saying that she has been tested and she has been found to be pure. But that did not happen.

Saar go back and read again, nowhere lord Ram banished Sita, yes he was perturbed, by the negative voices of his Janta
was ready to abdicate, so unlike today democracy in Ram rajya a single voice had value, Lady Sita when she came to know
she proposed the separation and when the Lord began dilly dallying She went into exile.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 01 Jun 2011 17:00

^^^

My recollection is that Ram had asked Lakman to deliver Sita to the Valmiki ashram and she guessed from the unhappiness of Laxman when he was conduscting her to the ashram as what was happning. That is why I said that she was banished at the say so of another man, as he had raised doubts on the character of his wife and Ram thought that similar questions should not be asked of Sita as she had spent an entire year as a captive of Ravan.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Jun 2011 19:28

The beauty of the Ramayana is every author thinks he has the liberty to narrate the story as he sees fit without fear or favor.
Jai Sri Ram!!!

The Vishnu Sahasranama ends Lord Shiva reciting the doha/couplet praising Rama as all that is needed for moksha.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 01 Jun 2011 20:49

Parvatyuvacha:
Kena-upayena laghuna Vishno: nama sahasrakam
patyate pandithai: nityam shrotum ichami aham prabhu

Eshavara Uvacha:
Sri Rama Rama Rama-iti Rame Raame Manorame
Sahasranama Tattulyam Rama nama varaanane

ManishH · Post by **ManishH** » 02 Jun 2011 13:56

Albiruni on the Hindu number system ...

The numerical signs which we (muslims) use are derived from the finest forms of the Hindu signs.
...
I have studied the names of the orders of the numbers in various languages with all kinds of people with whom I have been in contact, and have found that no nation goes beyond a thousand. Those, however, who go beyond a thousand in their numeral system are the Hindus ... they extend the names of the orders of numbers until the 18th order.
...
For each number they have quite a great quantity of words. Hence if one word does not suit the metre (in a sloka), you may easily exchange it for a synonym which suits.
eg. 1=chandra, sitamshu 2=asvin,paksha

What Albiruni doesen't say (explicitly) is the reason why Indians need such large numbers - because they were proficient in observational astronomy as well as needing to describe very long and very short durations of time.

Albiruni is perplexed and fails to understand the need for "great quantity" of words (paryayavachis) - which he actually calls a "shortcoming" of Hindu language - that's either a folly or self-placation.

Of course, elsewhere, there's a tinge of envy and secret yearning to be accepted as a scholar amongst Indians...

They (Hindus) never desire that a thing which once has been polluted should be purified and thus recovered, as, under ordinary circumstances, if anybody or anything has become unclean, he or it would strive to regain the state of purity. They are not allowed to receive anybody who does not belong to them, even if he wished it, or was inclined to their religion. This, too, renders any connection with them quite impossible, and constitutes the widest gulf between us (Muslims) and them (Hindus).

Since the above para is without any context, either he himself attempted to be accepted or saw someone who had been force-converted being rejected later.

There is a hint that Albiruni who considered himself the vanguard of Islamic scholarship was often found intellectually wanting in interactions with Indian scholars. This was probably representative of Islamic civilization's encounters with "Argumentative Indians" who were pedestals above them in intellectual achievement.

They hate to avow their ignorance by a frank "I do not know" - a word which is difficult to them in any connection whatsoever.

It is only with the greatest exertion and caution that we can to some extent correct the statements of the Hindus.

PS: parantheses are mine.

saadhak · Post by **saadhak** » 04 Jun 2011 17:40

ramana wrote:Jai Sri Ram!!!
The Vishnu Sahasranama ends Lord Shiva reciting the doha/couplet praising Rama as all that is needed for moksha.

Also Goswami Tulsidas' Shri Ramcharitmanas has quite a few dohas and chaupais showing how Ram and Shiv consider each other their ishta.
And on Ram, the way Goswami Tulsidas presents the case on the greatness of Ram-naam is a masterpiece (for lack of adjectives that can do justice to his poetry).

ManishH · Post by **ManishH** » 08 Jun 2011 15:54

Some thoughts on Anna Hazare and Baba Ramdev affair...

When thinking of performing the Rajasooya Yajna, Narada had warned Yudhishtira of ...

... A class of Rakshasas called Brahma Rakshasas, employed in obstructing all sacrifices, always search for loop-holes when a great sacrifice is commenced.

In their yajna to root out corruption, Anna Hazare and Baba Ramdev will face many a Brahmarakshasas who'll try to even divide the two on "secular"/"yindoo" lines. They'll try to question their motives and allege political gameplay. Interestingly, Vikramaditya's Vetaal was one of the Brahmarakshasas. These are spirits who were Brahmins that failed to perform their duties and are therefore under a curse.

Ministers of Congress govt who schemed to disrupt the Baba Ramdev yajna are like today's Brahmarakshasas who represent a now demonic spirit of INC of yore which had a noble beginning but failed to perform it's duties to the nation.

But like always, Indra and Agni are with AH and BR to make their yajna successful. Brahmarakshasas will meet their designated fate.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Jun 2011 09:10

Atriji, Comment on this:

The following is what I was referring to (6th poem on the first page):

vaarijaakshu landu vaivahikamulandu
praana vitta maanabhangambunandu
chataka gokulagra janma rakshanamandu
bonkavachu naghamu pondathapa

It is very difficult for me to translate exactly but I will try:

women, marriage, life, wealth and self-respect, in saving the births - one can tell lies and in such a situation where even if one lie, it is not a sin.

In Bhagavatam, this is what Acharya Sukracharya tells Balichakravarthy when he is about to donate three steps of land to Vamana by means of getting into kamandalam's hose.
There are several similar poems in epics and texts. In the later days probably Dayananda Saraswati etc, deduced es sense and rituals to re-convert Indian back to Sanathana Dharma as their ancestors took those ROP, ROL under distress.

Pothana Bhagavatam in Telugu:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/37002686/Famu ... -in-Telugu

and on :
apaddharmaparvan of the Mahabharata

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Jun 2011 09:16

ScribD Ramayana:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/29882404/Rama ... s-1-1-free

There is also one on Ganesha!

ManishH · Post by **ManishH** » 20 Jun 2011 15:20

Interesting paper on Dhruva, the Indian pole star

I am attaching my recently published paper "Dhruva the ancient Indian pole
star". I feel the material presented is important for all, including main
stream historians and indologists, interested in understanding the antiquity of
the Vedic culture and people.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Jun 2011 03:20

A whole collection of books on Jainism:

http://jainworld.com/library/jain_books11.asp

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 21 Jun 2011 11:28

ManishH wrote:These are spirits who were Brahmins that failed to perform their duties and are therefore under a curse.

I can think of quite a few Brahma Rakshas - EMS Namboodiripad, KM Shrimali, Romila Thapar, Jayati Ghosh, Karl the Marx, etc

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 26 Jun 2011 12:38

You forgot Sitaram Yechuri, Nehru, N Ram and other lot in the same gang. It is because some of them are unfortunately Alive

Narad · Post by **Narad** » 26 Jun 2011 13:07

Apparently, the Bhavishta Puran had predicted the advent of Islam and muhammad. Here is the Actual scripture in sanskrit, having highlighted sections and comments in english

Muhammad is mentioned, as Mahāmada, in III.3.3.5-27. The passage states his origin in Arabia and portrays him as a dharmadūṣaka ("polluter of righteousness/Dharma"), a preceptor of paiśācadharma ("ghoulish religion"), and a reincarnation of Tripurāsura, a demon whom Lord Shiva will destroy again.

It states: "The expert illusionist Mahamada(Muhammad) appeared at night in front of king Bhojaraja and said: O king, your religion is of course known as the best religion among all. Still I am going to establish a terrible and demoniac religion by the order of the Lord . The symptoms of my followers will be that they first of all will cut their genitals, have no shikha, but having beard, be wicked, make noise loudly and eat everything. They should eat animals without performing any rituals. This is my opinion
They will perform purificatory act with the musala or a pestle as you purify your things with kusha. Therefore, they will be known as musalman, the corrupters of religion. Thus the demoniac religion will be founded by me. After having heard all this the king came back to his palace and that ghost(Muhammad) went back to his place."

derkonig · Post by **derkonig** » 26 Jun 2011 13:51

^^^
does the puran say anything about the destruction of the religion of evil?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 26 Jun 2011 17:50

^^Only one coming even close is Kalki - expressed in more than one text. But most interpretations have him fight and destroy Chinese communists. Well perhaps the Koka/Vikoka in his story could be connected to the Islamic. The Tibetan Buddhist prediction has some elements about destruction of Islamics - and possibly having common origins with the Kalki story - both uses the "shambhala" allegory.

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 26 Jun 2011 20:10

Find it difficult to understand how an avatara or a Tripurantaka option would be able to remake the sponge of Indic civilization which has been permeated to an apparently unfathomable depth by Abrahamic memes. Rajiv Malhotra's post brings it all out here: viewtopic.php?f=24&p=1117123#p1117123

If it is a fight between the Six yard Saree and a Shalwar Kameez, there is really not much that any Avatara can bring into the mix.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 26 Jun 2011 20:14

I didnt say I rely on or am waiting for the Kalki!

Just mentioned that this is perhaps the closest available in the literature to what was being asked for.

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 26 Jun 2011 20:26

^^^ Agreed. There is really no objective served in casting aspersions on what might or might not happen in the future. I need to keep that in mind as it is indicative of a defeatist approach.

Wonder if all these interesting tidbits in the Bhavishya Purana are located in one single section or scattered all over the place.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 26 Jun 2011 20:38

One needs to be careful. Lot of snake oil is being sold in the name of Bhavishya Puranas in an effort to legitimize preferred religions using Puranic-authenticity.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 27 Jun 2011 00:15

On the other hand the Kalki story is sought to be used by some Muslims as proof positive of Muhammad. There are many asinine attempts and == on the net. Based on which the demand is that all "Hindus" should immediately accept Islam. Therefore reclaiming Kalki as the "Hindu" avatar, who will thrash the mlechchas and the "Jin" - the friends of the mlecchas - is perhaps an important psycho-social battle to be won.

The broth is spoiled by some enthusiasts from within our own, from both south and the north, guru-pitas and guru-matas claiming [or their circles on their behalf] Kalkihood. Especially problematic are the attempts at identifications of "shambhala" in specific "south" or "specific" north.

How many here believe that he/"she"[there is a female Kalki claimant] might already be dancing in silence behind the scenes?

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 27 Jun 2011 01:59

IMO, it would only be inviting unwanted attention by showing oneself as a supporter or sympathiser of avataras. It would be better to spread the propaganda that the need for an avatara to come and save humanity is indicative that human society is indeed flawed, thus getting all the nuisance makers to introspect.

Thus, I would actually support the forces selling "shwetha-ashwa" snake-oil, in this one instance. The premise atleast is based on a philosophical reality, that much is good enough for me in the short term.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 27 Jun 2011 03:56

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 27 Jun 2011 17:38

i do not think any incornation of Sri Mahavishnu will be there to propagate anyhing against the Sanathana Dharma. So Mohamad is out as Kalki. Even as a great human saint he is out because of the many horrible things he committed personally and asked others to do.

Muslims snake oil sellers like Zahir Naik will give lot of loony ideas to justify Islam for stupid people to accept.

ManishH · Post by **ManishH** » 27 Jun 2011 19:28

These verses about Mahamada of Purana could be a poetic way of documenting the history albeit in future tense. Another example of this style is prediction of Chandragupta's coronation by Kautilya in Bhagavata Purana ...

nava nandān dvijaḥ kaścit prapannān uddhariṣyati /
teṣāṃ abhāve jagatīṃ mauryā bhokṣyanti vai kalau // BhP_12.01.011 //
sa eva candraguptaṃ vai dvijo rājye 'bhiṣekṣyati /
tat-suto vārisāras tu tataś cāśokavardhanaḥ // BhP_12.01.012 //

It's hard to say if these are actually predictions or a poetic style of recording history.

The RigVeda is full of hymns which predicts that devourers of the flesh of cows will be punished by the divine devourer of flesh - Agni himself. So you can well imagine the irony - fire will destroy the evil creed

.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 27 Jun 2011 20:15

I am reading Shiva Purana; man the author(s) seriously must have had something against Brahma. I know one should not take these documents literally, and myself have canvassed on this planet about the wisdom in our puranas. But I definitely see the need for AKC and our grand-mothers sanitizing the stories for little children. Brahma not only has *ahem ahem* with his daughter, but is deeply disturbed by his grand-daughter - Sati as he is performing the Vedic rituals during Shiva-Sati marriage. So disturbed that his missile automatically fires off and moistens the ground. The paragraphs about how Shiva goes after Mohini is kind of hilarious.

SHQ read with interest the one small chapter that narrates the *ahem ahem* between Shiva and Sati; but she was totally put off by Brahma's interest in his own family members. As far as me, all I need is a time traveling machine to visit all these periods to witness in a cozy-comfort the lifestyle of our ancestors.

ps: I am reading the version written by Ramesh Menon, and I suspect he is sympathetic to Indic traditions. I am yet to conclude he is doing another Doniger on our puranas. Incidentally she has written several books, and no prizes for guessing her focal point. Interestingly, again, there are several books on the subject of ahem ahem.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 28 Jun 2011 07:13

SwamyG garu, why don't you read Puranas in Indic languages, especially when you can?

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 28 Jun 2011 07:20

RamaY wrote:SwamyG garu, why don't you read Puranas in Indic languages, especially when you can?

Could you please list some titles? Hindi/Tamizh commentaries would be the only ones I can read. Of course english too

Can stock up on the next trip home.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 28 Jun 2011 07:30

RamaY wrote:SwamyG garu, why don't you read Puranas in Indic languages, especially when you can?

The only language I am comfortable is English.

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 28 Jun 2011 08:34

SwamyG sir, I myself was quite intrigued by these stories and had no explanation to some non-hindu asking me questions about this in the Puranas.

You can find some more references to these stories over here:

http://aavaahana.blogspot.com/2011/03/u ... ranas.html

SwamyG wrote:I am reading Shiva Purana; man the author(s) seriously must have had something against Brahma. I know one should not take these documents literally, and myself have canvassed on this planet about the wisdom in our puranas. But I definitely see the need for AKC and our grand-mothers sanitizing the stories for little children. Brahma not only has *ahem ahem* with his daughter, but is deeply disturbed by his grand-daughter - Sati as he is performing the Vedic rituals during Shiva-Sati marriage. So disturbed that his missile automatically fires off and moistens the ground. The paragraphs about how Shiva goes after Mohini is kind of hilarious.

SHQ read with interest the one small chapter that narrates the *ahem ahem* between Shiva and Sati; but she was totally put off by Brahma's interest in his own family members. As far as me, all I need is a time traveling machine to visit all these periods to witness in a cozy-comfort the lifestyle of our ancestors.

ps: I am reading the version written by Ramesh Menon, and I suspect he is sympathetic to Indic traditions. I am yet to conclude he is doing another Doniger on our puranas. Incidentally she has written several books, and no prizes for guessing her focal point. Interestingly, again, there are several books on the subject of ahem ahem.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 28 Jun 2011 08:54

It does require a mature mind, good gurus or discussions. Hence I think our comics and granmas dilute them. It is wise to provide the cover of innocence to children as much as possible, especially in the impressionable age. But I wonder what the ancient gurus taught in their gurukulams.

http://www.kamakoti.org/newlayout/templ ... du/Puranas

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 28 Jun 2011 09:51

http://www.hindu.com/br/2011/06/28/stor ... 001302.htm

Translation of the Adhyatma Ramayana which is a part of the Bramhanda Purana is being released.

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 28 Jun 2011 20:59

SwamyG wrote:ps: I am reading the version written by Ramesh Menon, and I suspect he is sympathetic to Indic traditions. I am yet to conclude he is doing another Doniger on our puranas. Incidentally she has written several books, and no prizes for guessing her focal point. Interestingly, again, there are several books on the subject of ahem ahem.

Her focal point is the fecal point.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Jun 2011 01:12

Folks concentrating on Puranas should focus on the Old Testament. It has much more colorful descriptions.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 29 Jun 2011 04:03

Yup, remember the novel "The Seven Minutes" by Irving Wallace? There is the good court room scene, where the lawyer reads out passages from the bible. Irving Wallace had good doses of *ahem ahem* during nuna mujahid days.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 29 Jun 2011 05:19

On the other hand, if the child never hears the real story and it is not properly explained, the teenager has even less time to absorb it - onlee to face up to Donikerian interpretations at uni or adult interactions.

I think there are speculations, based on at least some casual refs in Kalidasa, that it was common practice for "seniors" to discuss sexuality with "juniors". It was termed "aadi-rasa", and there was no sense of "ahem-ahem" prudery about this. The 64 kalaas required of properly trained ladies included kamasastra. Again no prudery.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 29 Jun 2011 11:20

Narad wrote:Apparently, the Bhavishta Puran had predicted the advent of Islam and muhammad. Here is the Actual scripture in sanskrit, having highlighted sections and comments in english

Muhammad is mentioned, as Mahāmada, in III.3.3.5-27. The passage states his origin in Arabia and portrays him as a dharmadūṣaka ("polluter of righteousness/Dharma"), a preceptor of paiśācadharma ("ghoulish religion"), and a reincarnation of Tripurāsura, a demon whom Lord Shiva will destroy again.

It states: "The expert illusionist Mahamada(Muhammad) appeared at night in front of king Bhojaraja and said: O king, your religion is of course known as the best religion among all. Still I am going to establish a terrible and demoniac religion by the order of the Lord . The symptoms of my followers will be that they first of all will cut their genitals, have no shikha, but having beard, be wicked, make noise loudly and eat everything. They should eat animals without performing any rituals. This is my opinion
They will perform purificatory act with the musala or a pestle as you purify your things with kusha. Therefore, they will be known as musalman, the corrupters of religion. Thus the demoniac religion will be founded by me. After having heard all this the king came back to his palace and that ghost(Muhammad) went back to his place."

I think this anther one of Bogus interpretation of Bhagavatam, look above it quotes Canto 3 in Bhagvatam veras only Canto 12 in Bhagvatam talks about future periods. I think this is to counter Proganda from Zakir Naik that Bhagvatam asks Hindus to give up thier religion and accept Islam since Bhagvatam asks them to do so.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 29 Jun 2011 11:35

SwamyG wrote:
SNIP........

ps: I am reading the version written by Ramesh Menon, and I suspect he is sympathetic to Indic traditions. I am yet to conclude he is doing another Doniger on our puranas. Incidentally she has written several books, and no prizes for guessing her focal point. Interestingly, again, there are several books on the subject of ahem ahem.

Ramesh Menon writes with the POV of a Bhakt. If you read the translation by Meneon and the translation of the same text by the Great Rajaji. You will see that Menon's translation is true to the Sanskrit text. However, the translation by Rajiji will contain intrepretion and defensiveness of certain events and discriptions (Eg the Meat eating by the saints.). This is because Rajiji is a product of his times. Menon is free from compulsions of defending such practices.

The translations by both of then are a good way of understanding the greatness of Ramayan / Mahabharat / Purans.

PS; Have read the translation of Mahabharat & Ramayan by Rajaji & have read the translation of Ramayan from Menon and am currently reading the translation of Mahabharat by him.

In addition to the translation of Mahabharat, by, Sumit Mohan Ganguly. Menon BTW, acknowledges the translation by Ganguly as the first english translation of Mahabharat.

I plan to start with Verrapa Moily (SP ??) translation of ramayan once am done with the Mahabharat. Any one know how good or bad it is?

disha · Post by **disha** » 29 Jun 2011 11:40

anishns wrote: You can find some more references to these stories over here:

http://aavaahana.blogspot.com/2011/03/u ... ranas.html

Sorry to say this, the above is senseless and is no different from Wendy writing her fiction. A scholarly work should include the original sanskrit quote, its transliteration in english, its translation in english and then its interpretation in english. till that time it is bunkum! There are several reasons why it has to be that way., since the texts can be interpreted in a cosmological way too - for example ejaculation of hypernova results in a solar system with sun and planets and the sun gets ashamed and puffs up into a giant red ball and consumes back some of the planets. And all this can be re-interpreted of how Einsteins' equation is already defined in the puranas etc.

Certain things in the above blog are ridiculuous - like the explanation of Vali and Sugriva's birth and the explanation of Jambavan's birth!