Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 30 May 2011 16:02

Nihat wrote:Even assuming that TSP does get it's hand of nukes that could fit into NASR, I still fail to understand the standing logic behind lowering the nuke threshold and bombing ones own territory. Couple of aspects about this which I don't understand... .

Even assuming Pakis have abundant PU, have miniaturized a warhead and mounted it on a rocket which will be tube launched from NASR system (I presume NASR is the 4 tubed MBRL and HAFT-8 is the racket), wont the advancing IA IBG shoot ahead with its Brahmos @ C&C positions. What about Indian SRBM like Prithvi? wont these barrages precede an IA thrust apart from carpet bombing by IAF assets.

will NASR survive this onslaught? Mind you, the Indian Cold-Start IBG thrust is not advertised in the local Urdu newspaper before it is launched.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 30 May 2011 16:18

Singha wrote:Does pak manufacture the M113 troop carrier under license or it imports them used from Ukil's boneyard or some other large user like say turkey? how many of these are they estimated to have?

with light anti-HMG armour , very little if any sensors for night they are not the best kit around but definitely quite mobile due to tracked config and would be reliable given their long history and austere design.

They used to make the 113 at Taxshila, do they still do is unknown to me. The mobility / comfort I hear/ Read is not great, when compared with other vehicles.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 30 May 2011 16:22

Pratyush wrote:They used to make the 113 at Taxshila, do they still do is unknown to me. The mobility / comfort I hear/ Read is not great, when compared with other vehicles.

Pakis also have good Jugaad like SDREs, they will fit the needed bells and whistles to uncle maal with Chinpada maal. Donate couple of copies to Chinpada for Xeroxing etc. Comfort/mobility Ityaadi never figure in the Paki Calculus. It needs western Maal which India does not have to strut its superiority!!!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Jun 2011 05:50

sourab_c wrote: I guess what prompted me to pose the question that I did was how many members here decided to simply write off this threat. Call me a dhoti-shivering SDRE, but I do like to have a balanced argument about such matters. Merely claiming that China and Pakistan dont have it because it is a difficult design just doesn't cut it for me.

The statement that the Chinese will give it to Pakis just does not cut it either . I think you are posing a counter argument with no indication that you have actually looked at the material available on the matter. I have posted some of that stuff in the other forum. Perhaps you lurk there - but there is no indication of insight in your statement. There is enough public material to indicate the possible types and design routes taken for nukes that are less than 30 cm in diameter.

sourab_c · Post by **sourab_c** » 01 Jun 2011 07:01

shiv wrote: The statement that the Chinese will give it to Pakis just does not cut it either . .

It was not a statement but a question. More specifically, an attempt to spark a discussion on that possibility.

shiv wrote: I think you are posing a counter argument with no indication that you have actually looked at the material available on the matter

You have missed the core premise of my counter argument. Kindly read my post again.

In the future, try looking at other BR posters with a more open mind. You can not always steer the discussion on the thread the way YOU like it. This will be my last post regarding this subject.

arun · Post by **arun** » 01 Jun 2011 07:03

X Posted from the ISI History and Discussions thread.

The International media on the suspected involvement of the Inter Services Intelligence Directorate ( ISI / ISID ), the intelligence arm of the armed forces of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan in the abduction, torture and murder of Syed Saleem Shahzad following his expose of links between the Pakistan Navy and Islamic Terrorists.

The Washington Post:

Pakistan’s spy agencies are suspected of ties to reporter’s death

The Independent, UK:

Leading journalist 'murdered by Pakistani security service'

The Star, Canada:

Pakistani journalist found dead after reported arrest by intelligence agency

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Jun 2011 07:30

sourab_c wrote:
You have missed the core premise of my counter argument. Kindly read my post again.

In the future, try looking at other BR posters with a more open mind. You can not always steer the discussion on the thread the way YOU like it. This will be my last post regarding this subject.

I am questioning the core premise of your counter argument and I am saying that you are making a counter argument without delving into any detail of how or why that counter argument might or might not be feasible.

You still have not done that. Let me re-post your original statement

sourab_c wrote:What about the Chinese? We can never discount the possibility of Pakistan getting it from them....

We certainly cannot discount it. But equally you must not count on it without saying how. What factors in the creation of a less than 30 cm diameter warhead would give you pointers to the idea that the Chinese have created such a design and handed it to the Pakistanis?

A lot of information is available about the large numbers of tests that the US needed to do to design warheads less than 20 inches (50 cm) in diameter and some less than 12 inches (30 cm) . The vast majority of warheads that are less than 12 inches (30 cm) provide yields in the range of tens of tons or a few hundred tons. Not kilotons. The information available suggests that efficiency may have to be traded for getting some yield, especially if very little testing has been done - which means that these weapons are likely to be relatively costly in terms of nuclear material consumed - for the amount of bang that is produced. And Uranium of which the Pakis have a lot does not lend itself as easily to small weapons as Pu - of which the Pakis do not have much.

None of this means that the Pakis cannot have a warhead that is less than 30 cm in diameter, but it also means that if they do have such a warhead, whether home-built or obtained from the Chinese:
1. They cannot have many because of limited amounts of fissile material
2. They would have to compromise on the number of bigger and more efficient city busting bombs by wasting material on a small number of <30 cm nukes.

That would be relatively good news for India. But i am reluctant to believe it without better information.

I will keep posting on this subject because I believe it has not received enough attention beyond the standard statement "Oh the Chinese gave it to Pakis". We have depended on this for too long without critical examination.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 01 Jun 2011 18:49

shiv wrote:
sourab_c wrote:
You have missed the core premise of my counter argument. Kindly read my post again.

In the future, try looking at other BR posters with a more open mind. You can not always steer the discussion on the thread the way YOU like it. This will be my last post regarding this subject.
I am questioning the core premise of your counter argument and I am saying that you are making a counter argument without delving into any detail of how or why that counter argument might or might not be feasible.

You still have not done that. Let me re-post your original statement

sourab_c wrote:What about the Chinese? We can never discount the possibility of Pakistan getting it from them....
We certainly cannot discount it. But equally you must not count on it without saying how. What factors in the creation of a less than 30 cm diameter warhead would give you pointers to the idea that the Chinese have created such a design and handed it to the Pakistanis?

A lot of information is available about the large numbers of tests that the US needed to do to design warheads less than 20 inches (50 cm) in diameter and some less than 12 inches (30 cm) . The vast majority of warheads that are less than 12 inches (30 cm) provide yields in the range of tens of tons or a few hundred tons. Not kilotons. The information available suggests that efficiency may have to be traded for getting some yield, especially if very little testing has been done - which means that these weapons are likely to be relatively costly in terms of nuclear material consumed - for the amount of bang that is produced. And Uranium of which the Pakis have a lot does not lend itself as easily to small weapons as Pu - of which the Pakis do not have much.

None of this means that the Pakis cannot have a warhead that is less than 30 cm in diameter, but it also means that if they do have such a warhead, whether home-built or obtained from the Chinese:
1. They cannot have many because of limited amounts of fissile material
2. They would have to compromise on the number of bigger and more efficient city busting bombs by wasting material on a small number of <30 cm nukes.

That would be relatively good news for India. But i am reluctant to believe it without better information.

I will keep posting on this subject because I believe it has not received enough attention beyond the standard statement "Oh the Chinese gave it to Pakis". We have depended on this for too long without critical examination.

Development of such a small warhead would imply equivalent development on the industrial and technical frony.WE CLEARLY HAVE evidence that paakiland shows no such development. we need to look into the lizard program to see if they have a similar asset which can be extrapolated to the tsp prog. wonder if lizard info is there in open source.

narmad · Post by **narmad** » 01 Jun 2011 19:09

US denied Harpoon missile to Pak for India was target: WikiLeaks

Other cables that have also been released recently bring out the dire state of Pakistan’s financial health and express concerns that Islamabad has been spending billions on arms despite facing bankruptcy. A cable dated January 2009 reveals that not only did Pakistan default in paying for the F 16 fighters that it ordered in 2006 but was also behind on payments to a crucial ally like China.
The payments, the cable says, were related to the JF 17 fighter project with China that has been touted as Pakistan’s flagship joint fighter development program. Pakistan also defaulted on payments for advanced airborne early warning systems from Sweden.
“The GOP is also reportedly behind in payments to China, Sweden and other countries for JF-17s, Erieye Airborne Early Warning And Control (AEW&C) radar and other aircraft/ programs,” reads the cable.

If Pakistan is not able to Pay for Erieye, would the spares and support be stopped ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Jun 2011 19:14

the swedes will continue to throw good money after bad because
[a] they hope pak will somehow find the money by stealing from more poor people/drug funds
nobody in sweden/saab wants to look bad owning up to making a deal with a beggar and terrorist republic

but beyond a point either the swedish govt has to pay saab on behalf of the pakis or saab has to stop new airframes and spares for old airframes. its just cold logic.

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 01 Jun 2011 19:24

Punjab Rangers helicopter crashes; two dead http://www.dawn.com/2011/06/01/punjab-r ... ashes.html

ISLAMABAD: A helicopter with the head of the provincial paramilitary force on board crashed in eastern Pakistan on Wednesday, killing at least two people , military officials said.

Four military officials, including Major-General Mohammad Nawaz, director general of the Punjab Rangers, were on board the helicopter when it crashed into Indus River in eastern Pakistan.

The helicopter crashed in the Indus River near the town of Kot Sultan Bhakri.

“Two bodies have been recovered but they have not yet been identified,” a military official said.

Another official said the helicopter was flying in bad weather, adding that the cause of the crash was being investigated.

sum · Post by **sum** » 01 Jun 2011 21:57

Four military officials, including Major-General Mohammad Nawaz, director general of the Punjab Rangers, were on board the helicopter when it crashed into Indus River in eastern Pakistan.

Given that TSP is absolute cuckoo-land these days, never know if the pilot turned out to be a Qadri like guy who did a fidayeen attack( by crashing his own chopper) on the Rangers chief to avenge some Al-Q/"Bad Taliban" guy having been detained by the rangers.

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 01 Jun 2011 22:35

As someone on twitter said, Pakistan is both the arsonist and the fireman.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 02 Jun 2011 02:46

It cannot be too long before the cancer spreads. PN is infested. PA should have entire units that could go either way I bet. PAF, I suspect has low-low people with jihadic mind sets.

What else remains in that destitute country?

With such pockets of infiltrated muck what purpose would it serve to provide further military assistance is beyond me. Let us see if the US provides a couple of replacement P-3s.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Jun 2011 02:49

Wanna run a poll?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 02 Jun 2011 02:53

A properly formulated one.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Jun 2011 06:40

Prasant wrote:As someone on twitter said, Pakistan is both the arsonist and the fireman.

Tsk tsk. You should be more sympathetic. Pakistan is a victim of terrorism just as much as a suicide bomber is a victim of an explosive suicide vest.

arun · Post by **arun** » 02 Jun 2011 07:32

X Posted from the Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan thread.

Inter-Services blame shifting in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

The Navy of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan blames the Air Force of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan for the security breakdown that permitted the attack on the Mehran Naval base to be carried out:

The Pakistan Navy has laid the responsibility of the PNS Mehran attack on the Pakistan Air Force, a private TV channel reported.

In a press briefing on Monday, the Navy officials said the militants entered the PNS Mehran from the area controlled by the PAF and it was the PAF’s responsibility to guard the area. They said the real target of the militants were two PC-3 Orion aircrafts parked at the base. They said 11 Chinese and six US citizens were present at the base but all of them were evacuated in a bullet-proof vehicle.

From the Nation:

Navy blames PAF for security lapse

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 02 Jun 2011 07:54

shiv wrote:
Prasant wrote:As someone on twitter said, Pakistan is both the arsonist and the fireman.
Tsk tsk. You should be more sympathetic. Pakistan is a victim of terrorism just as much as a suicide bomber is a victim of an explosive suicide vest.

Of course, they are victims onlee. And so heart warming to see WKKs online shed tears for the prave Bakistanis.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 02 Jun 2011 08:30

shiv wrote:
Prasant wrote:As someone on twitter said, Pakistan is both the arsonist and the fireman.
Tsk tsk. You should be more sympathetic. Pakistan is a victim of terrorism just as much as a suicide bomber is a victim of an explosive suicide vest.

Actually a Suicide Bomber is a victim, he is brainwashed into doing this by false promises of 72 and compensation to his family. Pakis jumped into this shit knowingly..

Suicide Bomber does it once, probably he regrets is just before he dies...
Pakis has been doing it over and over again for 60+ years (or is it 1000s of years as they claim)

Suicide Bombers are saints compared to the Paki scum

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 02 Jun 2011 08:38

Rakesh wrote:
sourab_c wrote:What about the Chinese? We can never discount the possibility of Pakistan getting it from them....
All this talk about them using nukes is all hogwash. They know if they cross the Lakshman Rekha, nothing of Pakistan will be left. They know India's No-First-Use-But-Massive-Retaliation policy very well. Unlike the Taliban, these guys actually wanna live and they have not bought into the 72 virgins story. This Nasr talk is to placate their own people into believing that it will deter India from launching surgical strikes into Pakistan.

Didnt someone recently make it clear that it is No-First-Use-only-against-non-nws-But-Massive-Retaliation-irrespective ?

Gurinder P · Post by **Gurinder P** » 02 Jun 2011 09:28

cheenum wrote: Actually a Suicide Bomber is a victim, he is brainwashed into doing this by false promises of 72 and compensation to his family. Pakis jumped into this shit knowingly..

A few of my Muslim friends once told me that if those morons kept blowing themselves up, the afterlife would run out of virgins and they would get sloppy seconds or Male virgins.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 02 Jun 2011 09:32

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 02 Jun 2011 09:38

I don't believe the RAPEs in the government or the Inter-services command structures subscribe to the 72 theory, which is why a statement such as one made by Gen Padmanabhan a few aeons ago rattled them so badly.
However, it creates a lot of room for speculation, with DDMs and other journos writing about Pakis lowering the nuclear threshold and what not.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 02 Jun 2011 10:20

arun wrote:X Posted from the Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan thread.

Inter-Services blame shifting in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

The Navy of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan blames the Air Force of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan for the security breakdown that permitted the attack on the Mehran Naval base to be carried out:

The Pakistan Navy has laid the responsibility of the PNS Mehran attack on the Pakistan Air Force, a private TV channel reported.

In a press briefing on Monday, the Navy officials said the militants entered the PNS Mehran from the area controlled by the PAF and it was the PAF’s responsibility to guard the area. They said the real target of the militants were two PC-3 Orion aircrafts parked at the base. They said 11 Chinese and six US citizens were present at the base but all of them were evacuated in a bullet-proof vehicle.
From the Nation:

Navy blames PAF for security lapse

In Dec 1971 when the PN chief called up the PAF chief when the IN was sinking all the Ships in Karachi Harbour. The Paf did not have any fighters to support the Navy ops. So PAF cheif said" My dear boy, Loss of Battleships is common in war, why be agitated about it". I wonder what the PAF tells the PN this time.

Gurinder P · Post by **Gurinder P** » 02 Jun 2011 10:36

Aditya_V wrote: In Dec 1971 when the PN chief called up the PAF chief when the IN was sinking all the Ships in Karachi Harbour. The Paf did not have any fighters to support the Navy ops. So PAF cheif said" My dear boy, Loss of Battleships is common in war, why be agitated about it". I wonder what the PAF tells the PN this time.

"My dear boy, Loss of Naval Aircraft sitting on the Tarmac is common in peace for you lads, why be agitated about it. Oh by the way, don't you dare try putting the blame of the Rann of Kutch incident on us again"

jai · Post by **jai** » 02 Jun 2011 18:06

Gurinder P wrote:
cheenum wrote: Actually a Suicide Bomber is a victim, he is brainwashed into doing this by false promises of 72 and compensation to his family. Pakis jumped into this shit knowingly..
A few of my Muslim friends once told me that if those morons kept blowing themselves up, the afterlife would run out of virgins and they would get sloppy seconds or Male virgins.

[youtube]GFelEa8wAIk&feature=related[/youtube]

from 4 th minute, crank up the volume. Anyone who's not seen Achmed the dead terrorist by Jeff Dunham should see that one first.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 02 Jun 2011 19:07

Check what Pakis got for UAV

Export restrictions apply. The sale of certain products is subject to an end-user certification and approval by the Government of Pakistan and DEPO (Defence Export Promotion Organization).

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 02 Jun 2011 19:18

chackojoseph wrote:Check what Pakis got for UAV

Export restrictions apply. The sale of certain products is subject to an end-user certification and approval by the Government of Pakistan and DEPO (Defence Export Promotion Organization).

why has this porki toy plane company put flags of so many countries like US, south korea ,AUSTralia etc ? I ll truly get dhoti shivers if us or south korea buy their product

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Jun 2011 21:50

these are like high end hobby kits, plenty of videos in youtube of similar kit used by enthusiasts all over the place. the pakis probably trawled a few places and bought the rights to make and market some of these.

the real meat of the matter - the payloads is listed under expansion options. which is to say the customer had better arrange for it.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 02 Jun 2011 23:25

Singha wrote:these are like high end hobby kits, plenty of videos in youtube of similar kit used by enthusiasts all over the place. the pakis probably trawled a few places and bought the rights to make and market some of these.

the real meat of the matter - the payloads is listed under expansion options. which is to say the customer had better arrange for it.

yup. they are quite cheap even. this one for instance is for $ 7000. Planning to buy one myself when i get back to amreeka.

http://cropcam.com/

btw the comment

crappy porky toyshop wrote: Export restrictions apply. The sale of certain products is subject to an end-user certification and approval by the Government of Pakistan and DEPO (Defence Export Promotion Organization)."

@ the end of the site had me ROFLING .THough i thank them for suggesting me a new hobby.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 03 Jun 2011 04:18

Pakistan Seen Readying to Cross Nuclear Threshold

Federation of American Scientists Nuclear Information Project Director Hans Kristensen said the nuclear-capable Hatf 9 missile appears to be designed to attack an invading force of Indian soldiers.
"While that wouldn't threaten Indian survival in itself, it would of course mean crossing the nuclear threshold early in a conflict, which is one of the particular concerns of a short-range nuclear weapon," Kristensen said.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 03 Jun 2011 06:35

At least 80 people died in two days of clashes between the Pakistan security forces and Afghan militants who crossed the border and attacked a checkpoint in Upper Dir district bordering Afghanistan. According to reports from the area, 27 policemen, eight civilians and 45 militants were killed in the intense fighting. Eyewitnesses said that up to 200 to 300 well-equipped militants, who reportedly wore military and police uniforms, attacked the check post situated in the mountainous area in the wee hours on Wednesday and the fight continued for more than 36 hours.

The sources said that so far only 15 dead bodies of the militants have been recovered while the militants took the rest of the bodies with them. The militants blew up at least five schools as well and it was reported that Afghan militants had the assistance of local militants. The official sources said that heavy weapons and gunship helicopter were also used to repulse the attack. Upper Dir is adjacent to the Kunar province of Afghanistan from where these militants crossed into Pakistan.

Nutty Nation

vic · Post by **vic** » 03 Jun 2011 09:10

Airavat wrote:
At least 80 people died in two days of clashes between the Pakistan security forces and Afghan militants who crossed the border and attacked a checkpoint in Upper Dir district bordering Afghanistan. According to reports from the area, 27 policemen, eight civilians and 45 militants were killed in the intense fighting. Eyewitnesses said that up to 200 to 300 well-equipped militants, who reportedly wore military and police uniforms, attacked the check post situated in the mountainous area in the wee hours on Wednesday and the fight continued for more than 36 hours.

The sources said that so far only 15 dead bodies of the militants have been recovered while the militants took the rest of the bodies with them. The militants blew up at least five schools as well and it was reported that Afghan militants had the assistance of local militants. The official sources said that heavy weapons and gunship helicopter were also used to repulse the attack. Upper Dir is adjacent to the Kunar province of Afghanistan from where these militants crossed into Pakistan.
Nutty Nation

Seems like Battlion level infantry action/fights by freedom fighters against oppression by Punjabi's Hindus disguised as Pak Muslim Army.

Boreas · Post by **Boreas** » 03 Jun 2011 09:21

India planned attack on Pak navy base to kill Chinese engineer
Oh boy!

The terrorist attack on Karachi's Mehran Naval Station on May 22 was conceived and launched by India with the primary objective of killing the Chinese engineers present there, a Pakistani newspaper has claimed, citing 'informed sources'.

Atleast this jurno won't be kidnapped and killed by ISI.

India is the only country in the region that feels troubled by the Pakistan Navy, which had awfully beaten the Indian Navy in Operation Dwarka of 1965. Since then, it has been an earnest desire of India to harm the Pakistan Navy but it was perhaps not possible on the battle front, hence it struck the PNS Mehran,"

looks like some sort of PR campaign for PN..

The paper quoted sources as saying that India's access to terror outfits active in Pakistan through its consulates in Afghanistan poses a major threat to the internal security of the country.

This is the reason that Pakistan has always been voicing concern over the opening of an unjustified number of Indian consulates in the war-ravaged and lawless neighbouring country of Afghanistan, they added.

Classic puki two birds with one stone statement.. distract from there own failure by completely blowing off the topic under discussion and giving citizens of TSP more fodder to hate yundistanis.

The attack on PNS Mehran was conceived by the top secret service of India -- Research and Analysis Wing -- with the primary objective of killing Chinese engineers with the destruction of expensive maritime surveillance aircraft of the Pakistan Navy being the secondary objective," said the sources.

here comes the punch line

"The final goal of such a daring assault was to give an impression to the international community that Pakistan was a highly fragile country vis-a-vis its internal security," they added.

I dun know who is left to give that impression.. coz puki janta and media is already showing PA all kinds of mirror.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 03 Jun 2011 09:27

Quote:

The attack on PNS Mehran was conceived by the top secret service of India -- Research and Analysis Wing -- with the primary objective of killing Chinese engineers with the destruction of expensive maritime surveillance aircraft of the Pakistan Navy being the secondary objective," said the sources.

here comes the punch line

Quote:

"The final goal of such a daring assault was to give an impression to the international community that Pakistan was a highly fragile country vis-a-vis its internal security," they added.

Proves my point. RAA is very active

akimalik · Post by **akimalik** » 03 Jun 2011 09:38

Singha wrote:these are like high end hobby kits, plenty of videos in youtube of similar kit used by enthusiasts all over the place. the pakis probably trawled a few places and bought the rights to make and market some of these.

the real meat of the matter - the payloads is listed under expansion options. which is to say the customer had better arrange for it.

exactly, these seem to be little more than modified r/c kits.
looking at some of their so-called UAVs, I realised that we fly bigger a/c at the r/c field where I fly.
the only thing is that in India, there are very restrictive rules w.r.t remote-monitoring (thus no fly-cams) and that most of these r/c a/cs are short on endurance.
else there seems to be nothing exceptional in what they are re-selling.
no need for "Shiver-me-timbers"

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 03 Jun 2011 10:13

Airavat wrote:The sources said that so far only 15 dead bodies of the militants have been recovered while the militants took the rest of the bodies with them.

This leads me to think that the "Afghan Militants" are non other than the US trained militia, since when did militants care for their fallen comrades bodies? even TSPA does not care for its dead soldiers?!? They wanted to remove any incriminating traces. who these 15 bodies are, any guesses, probably Pakis, civilians, Afghan spotters are just innocent bystanders.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 03 Jun 2011 11:03

The talibs take away the bodies of their dead, and hold very public burials back in their villages.

Helps them get more recruits.

And according to them this is Jihad, holy war, and the dead guy was a martyr. AND for the martyr to get his post-martrydom benefits package from god-almighty, he has to be buried the 'proper' way

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 03 Jun 2011 11:07

rajanb wrote:Proves my point. RAA is very active

Hint, rajnikant is in Hospital.