Kargil War Thread - VI

ShivaS · Post by **ShivaS** » 19 Nov 2010 11:15

EDITED.

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 19 Nov 2010 20:33

Burqha is the most likely suspect isn't she? Did anyone notice she stopped reporting from the trenches overnight? I thought I did. I always wondered how and why this happened. But, my observations could be wrong.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 19 Nov 2010 23:49

Operation Koh-e-Paima

Then Operation Badr was?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Nov 2010 00:42

If it had succedded!

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 28 Nov 2010 09:28

Bishwa wrote: Just look at the number of casualties reported in this website for that period under Siachen and in general. It is not significant. It is said that the result of this battle resulted in the seed for the Kargil operation.

Doubtless, your contention is correct.

If the pakis discerned the seeds of kargil in this operation, what were our own experts doing??

We should have war gamed such scenario. It's an important function of of the powers that be. The pakis have certain well known focus points that have been in the limelight for decades.

Our guys seem to have a singular lack of imagination. Every probe and attack should be war gamed and studied. Focus on tactical competence alone is not enough because it strangulates strategic thinking.

As a nation we seem to place more reliance in firefighting rather than fire prevention.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 28 Nov 2010 09:36

^^^ Op topac from IDR.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 29 Nov 2010 15:49

didnt a large number of PA officers get killed during the LGB strike at muntho dalo? including a brigadier?

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 04 Dec 2010 19:15

CNN-IBN revisits the battle scene with Col Ajit Singh, 22 Grenadiers who captured Pt 4812 in 99 (then Major). The army has now constructed a road to close to the point since ... and he is pleasantly surprised with that.

Good watch.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1V9No2GKp5w[/youtube]

Noticed this parachute patch on the Col. What does it mean?:

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

khukri · Post by **khukri** » 04 Dec 2010 21:35

Aditya G wrote:CNN-IBN revisits the battle scene with Col Ajit Singh, 22 Grenadiers who captured Pt 4812 in 99 (then Major). The army has now constructed a road to close to the point since ... and he is pleasantly surprised with that.

Good watch.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1V9No2GKp5w[/youtube]

Noticed this parachute patch on the Col. What does it mean?:

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Probably that he knows how to use one!

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 12 Dec 2010 00:29

Raising serious questions about the military leadership in the 1999 Kargil war, the Armed Forces Tribunal has indicted a former Lieutenant General for showing bias towards a Brigadier playing down his achievements and for falsifying accounts of battles.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=devlm4RRDQk[/youtube]

Not convinced we won Kargil: Lt Gen Kishan Pal to NDTV

A General who led the Indian Army on ground in the Kargil conflict, has broken his 11-year silence to say that he believes India actually lost the war in strategic terms.

In an exclusive interview to NDTV, Lieutenant-General Kishan Pal, who was then the head of the Srinagar-based 15 Corps, says India has failed to consolidate its tactical gains.

Asked for his assessment of the conflict 11 years later, Gen Pal told NDTV: "Well for 11 years I did not speak at all...I did not speak because I was never convinced about this war, whether we really won it...We did gain some tactical victories, we regained the territories we lost, we lost 587 precious lives. I consider this loss of war because whatever we gained from the war has not been consolidated, either politically or diplomatically. It has not been consolidated militarily."

Gen Pal was recently in a controversy involving the battle performance report of one of his juniors, Brigadier Devinder Singh.

Speaking to NDTV, the then Army chief General VP Mailk refused to get into the debate but said there was little doubt who won that war.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_l73BVmlrs[/youtube]

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 12 Dec 2010 02:46

isn't this the guy who had been trying to pin the blame for Kargil on a Brigadier? What an egoist!!

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 12 Dec 2010 11:35

Vivek K wrote:isn't this the guy who had been trying to pin the blame for Kargil on a Brigadier? What an egoist!!

Who are you referring to?

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 12 Dec 2010 14:39

^ Lt Gen Kishan Pal was accused of preparing reports that suggested that there were 2 brigades operating in Batalik sector. In reality there was only one brigage - 70 Bde led by Brig. Devinder Singh which was responsible for operations. Thus, Brig Devinder Singh applied in courts to ensure that he got the full credit.

Do not confuse this episode with the story of 121 Bde's commander Brig Surinder Singh. While 121 is the permanent holding formation in Kargil, 70 Bde was moved into Batalik as part of Op Vijay.

http://www.ndtv.com/news/videos/video_p ... ?id=143670

The report of Lieutenant General Kishan Pal, then General Officer Commanding (GOC) 15 Corps, who oversaw operations in that sector not only cost him a war medal but also deprived the Brigadier of promotion as Major-General.

Due to the 'fudged' battle accounts, Brig Singh was awarded only a Vishisht Seva Medal (VSM) and not a Mahavir Chakra, which he was cited for.

"I could not sleep well all these years on this account only that this was a fictitious writing," said Retired Brigadier Singh. (Watch: Vindication for my brigade: Kargil hero tells NDTV)

"The tribunal in its order very clearly said that portions of the war record need to be rewritten and they have left it to the Army to write in whatever form, but in the present form they are incorrect," he added. (Read: Why was he targeted?)

Brigadier Devinder was heading the 70 Brigade in the Turtuk-Batalik sector during the 1999 conflict with Pakistan. Despite his admirable battle performance, Brigadier Devinder's Corps commander Lt Gen Kishan Pal underplayed his and the brigade's achievements.

The Tribunal order suggests personal malice as the main reason for brigadier Singh being targeted. According to Devinder Singh, General Pal's bias stemmed from the following reasons:

• In April 1999, Brigadier Singh warned of intrusions along the Kargil front, from Batalik to Drass.

• But his superiors dismissed his assessment

• In the middle of the war, Brigadier Singh had reported that 600 Pakistan army regulars were positioned in Batalik.

• But Lt General Pal said just 45 Pakistani irregulars were on the spot.

Lt General Kishen Pal on the other hand says he was never called by the tribunal to give his side of the story.

"I don't know what the procedures are of the tribunal. I can only say that they did not call me or ask me anything," he said.

http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/article95236.ece

...n an assessment of 70 Brigade’s conduct during the war, Lt. Gen. Pal asserted that Brig. Singh had little to do with the success in Batalik. “Success in operations,” he instead claimed, “particularly in the last 10-12 days, came about by superimposing Brigadier Ashok Duggal, Deputy General-Officer Commanding 3 Infantry Division.”

Later, an after-action report prepared by Lt. Gen. Pal’s headquarters claimed that Brigadier Duggal had control of four battalions which led the assault along the eastern flank of the Batalik sector — the Ladakh Scouts, the 1st Battalion of 11 Gurkha Rifles, 12 Jammu Kashmir Light Infantry and 22 Grenadiers Regiment.

But these claims were directly disputed by the officers who led these units. Colonel Avtar Singh, Colonel General Staff of 3 Division, asserted that Brig. Duggal was “at no point of time ever tasked [with] nor did he perform any command or control operations.” Lieutenant Colonel A.S. Chandoke, who led the Indus Wing of the Ladakh Scouts, maintained that “throughout these operations, command and control remained with the Commander, Brigadier Devinder Singh.” Lieutenant Colonel Neeraj Mehra, who commanded 22 Grenadiers, also supported this account....

Edit: I have finally made 1000 posts on BRF! Took almost 9 years but its great to have achieved this!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Dec 2010 05:16

Great going. Wish more members had such high signal to noise posts!

arunsrinivasan · Post by **arunsrinivasan** » 23 Dec 2010 19:57

Guys, I remember reading a post a long time ago about a Gorkha who was stuck behind enemy lines during the Kargil war armed with just his kukri. He then went to kill 11-12 Pakistanis over a 3 day period before he could get back. Does anyone have a link to this story? I searched using various keywords but couldn't find it.

Thanks!

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 23 Dec 2010 20:23

arunsrinivasan wrote:Guys, I remember reading a post a long time ago about a Gorkha who was stuck behind enemy lines during the Kargil war armed with just his kukri. He then went to kill 11-12 Pakistanis over a 3 day period before he could get back. Does anyone have a link to this story? I searched using various keywords but couldn't find it.

Thanks!

I think you are looking for this

arunsrinivasan · Post by **arunsrinivasan** » 24 Dec 2010 19:50

chaanakya wrote:
arunsrinivasan wrote:Guys, I remember reading a post a long time ago about a Gorkha who was stuck behind enemy lines during the Kargil war armed with just his kukri. He then went to kill 11-12 Pakistanis over a 3 day period before he could get back. Does anyone have a link to this story? I searched using various keywords but couldn't find it.

Thanks!
I think you are looking for this

Thanks! Yes I was indeed looking for Tamang's story but the one posted earlier was much more descriptive. Thanks for sharing

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 29 Jan 2011 01:49

cross posting from Pak List of Killed Thread

Something to prove our theory that the pak army list is not complete.

I was reading this blog post on Maj Amin's Blog
http://indopakmilitaryhistory.blogspot. ... l-war.html

Scroll down to this picture
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_8bEdZGbBsg0/S ... +point.jpg

Major Kashif Khalil of 17 Sindh, died August 1999, Awarded the Sitara-e-Juraat

and his name is not there in the kargil list of killed, or anywhere else either..

if an Officer's name could be left out, imagine how many other poor sods were left out..

if anyone can locate him, give me a shout out.

Incidentally the Shuahda Corner portion of the pak army lists only 11 names in all - the NH awardees. I guess the section is gone for good.

Khalil's citation can be found at http://www.hadeedian.com/kashif.html

Citation of PA-33169 Major Kashif Khalil, SJ

Major Kashif Khalil, SJ passed out in April 1994, with 89 PMA Long Course and joined 17 Sind Regiment. Besides serving in his parent
unit he has served as GSO-III (1) in HQ 88 Brigade Gujranwala, has been a platoon commander (Instructor Class 'C') and Adjutant
(Instructor Class 'B') in PMA and has also represented Pakistan in UNAMSIL (United Nations Mission in Sierra Leone). The officer is a
graduate of Command and Staff College Quetta, has been a Brigade Major in Headquater 10 Brigade Sialkot Cantonment and is presently
serving in 17 Sind Regiment.

The officer while serving in 12 Northern Light Infantry Battalion in 1999 had the opportunity of participating in Operation Koh-e-Pema where
besides establishing two posts he played a pivotal role in defence of a very sensitive sector against a forceful enemy attack inflicting heavy
casualty on to the enemy. On 7 July, once one of the platoon's locality was seriously threatened, the officer volunteered himself to lead the
counter attack. Because of his audacity and courage, the counter attack by only 20 persons was not only successful but the enemy was totally
evicted out of the area. However, during this process the officer himself got injured by the enemy fire. Because of his valour, demonstrated
grit and determination at the peril of his life, the officer was awarded "SITARA-I-JURAT."

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 24 Feb 2011 10:18

Persuit of Enlightment

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Mar 2011 08:02

http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 110329.htm

Awesome!

Flip through slide show from the above link

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 31 Mar 2011 14:18

This memorial is just 4-5 Km from Jammu railway station.

nits · Post by **nits** » 31 Mar 2011 15:04

Went through the Slide show... super work from IA. After a long time we have constructed such magnificant structure for our True Heroes...

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 01 Apr 2011 02:31

Awesome monument!! And I am glad that Rediff published it. The monument also looks like giving the finger to our enemies.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 19 May 2011 03:19

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Siachen_R ... eview.html

Is this picture from Safedsagar?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 May 2011 03:24

I believe so.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Jun 2011 10:23

Most of us know in Kargil:

IA Operation Vijay
IAF Operation Safed Sagar
Here is IN name:
IN Operation TALWAR

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 05 Jun 2011 12:26

jamwal wrote:This memorial is just 4-5 Km from Jammu railway station.

Why not in Srinagar. In Lal Chowk also

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 05 Jun 2011 20:39

chackojoseph wrote:Persuit of Enlightment

Nothing found

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 05 Jun 2011 21:19

Aditya G wrote:http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Siachen_R ... eview.html

Is this picture from Safedsagar?

I think this is just after Kargil. During the making of Akash Yoddha.

arnab · Post by **arnab** » 09 Jun 2011 06:53

http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/ ... her-vikram

It was months later, at the Western Command headquarters, when I met the junior commissioned officer (JCO) who was with Vikram the day he was fatally wounded. He was the last man to speak with Vikram. Sub Major Raghunath Singh started wailing when he saw me. He solved the mystery of my twin’s death for me: a young officer, Vikram’s junior, was hit and crying for help. The JCO wanted to go out to help but Vikram stopped him. “The enemy was firing heavily. ‘You have a family and children back home, I will do this,’ saahab said. He stopped me with these words and went out,” Raghunath Singh told me as he wept like a baby, inconsolably. But Vikram was hit by sniper fire. Having realised that, the charged company went berserk, mad with rage at their leader being hit, and killed the enemy soldiers. The tricolour was planted atop point 4875—they call it Batra Top now.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Jun 2011 08:27

Very touching tribute to a brave warrior!!!

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 14 Jun 2011 00:15

Came across the above link while looking for something else:

Legacies of Kargil

http://www.india-today.com/itoday/19990830/defence.html

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 16 Jun 2011 07:55

I think, in the case of either Lieutenant Neikezhakuo Kenguruse's (MVC) or Lieutenant K C Nongrum's (MVC) attack (slightly confused here), the TSPA Officer was shouting 'kill the Kaffir' to his troops. I had read this TOI, around one of Vijay Diwas anniversaries from the soldiers about their LT.

Request: If someone finds/has the link in the Kargil war thread Please post, whenever they can find or come across.

At that time I had thought of it just as a 'rude remark' of an officer (remember LBS (Indians) was referred to as ******** among Ayub, ZAB and their staff in private). But over the years, as events have played out, it is more just a symptom of the malaise, rather than a one off remark.

Zia years were the of 'Crore Commanders' (a term coined then) and also the Islamisation. Musharraf himself is a product of that process, benefiting from promotions, but this TSPA afsar must have been a Capt/Major in Kargil, points to the fact that TSPA starting from the desire to avenge 71', had already 'turned the corner' into Islamisation pre-Kargil.

The narrative of the mujahid, freeing Muslims brothers from the evil clutches of Hindus is too familiar to us. (The narrative, I gather, carefully excludes 'Muslim' on 'Muslim' tyrants).

As long as the canon fodder of JKLF, HM, UJC, Harkat, Let, JEM, 'jihadi flavour of the day' lot, believed in it, it was *OK* for TSP, but at some point it swallowed it for itself. Trying to get a timeline on that, not that it matters anymore, but a link would be helpful.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 21 Jun 2011 21:29

arunsrinivasan wrote:
chaanakya wrote:
I think you are looking for this
Thanks! Yes I was indeed looking for Tamang's story but the one posted earlier was much more descriptive. Thanks for sharing

http://www.indiandefence.com/forums/f10 ... #post54241

Hav Gyan Bahadur Tamang was part of the CO's column of attack on the night during operation Vijay in 1999. The hair-raising story of his exploits during the attack is exemplary.

Hav Gyan Bahadur was ordered to move behind an enemy position to cut them off from their reinforcements. The enemy spotted the movement and in the fire-fight that ensued, Hav Gyan Bahadur and his buddy were separated from others. In the exchange of fire, both were hit. While his colleague made the supreme sacrifice, Gyan Bahadur fell backwards and rolled downhill some twenty metres before he passed out with blood oozing from his neck. A light drizzle revived him the next morning and he came to his senses with the sound of automatic weapons and artillery shells landing all around him. He was soon spotted and eight Pakistani soldiers began to fire on him with their AK-47 assault rifles while he dashed around from one boulder to another. Displaying remarkable shooting skills under extreme pressure and with utmost fire discipline, Hav Gyan Bahadur shot dead three Pakistanis.

Soon dense fog enveloped the area. Taking advantage of poor visibility, Hav Gyan Bahadur made good his escape to rejoin the battalion. Bleeding profusely, low on ammunition, his rifle severely damaged, thirsty and hungry, he tore his vest and tied it around his neck to reduce the loss of blood. He wandered around in the fog till he fell asleep exhausted. The next morning, he woke up with a start startling two Pakistani soldiers who quickly turned on him and asked him to surrender at gunpoint. Displaying remarkable presence of mind, he employed the oldest ruse in the world by yelling and waving at an imaginary point behind the Pakistanis. As they turned around, he pulled out his khukri and slit their throat with two deft swishes.
However, the commotion brought out more Pakistanis and Hav Gyan Bahadur was fired upon for over half an hour from several directions. He dived into a small depression and waited with baited breath for the firing to end. After some time, two Pakistanis including a JCO cautiously approached him. Pretending to be dead, Gyan Bahadur lay absolutely still, his khukri hidden under his body. As one of the Pakistanis kicked him to see if he was dead, he sprang at them with Jai Mahakali Ayo Gorkhali and, before the petrified Pakistanis could react, he hacked them to death, ran, rolled, jumped and rolled downhill as bullets whizzed around him. At night, he crept under a bush, chewed its tender leaves for energy before he fell asleep, completely exhausted.
Suffering from acute loss of blood, dehydration, high fever and complete exhaustion, Hav Gyan Bahadur woke up the next morning unsure of his bearings. Lacking the strength to make another attempt to rejoin his battalion on Khalubar, he half walked, half stumbled downhill. He spotted two burly Pakistanis walking towards him carrying grenades and ammunition and chatting. There was nowhere to run. He hid behind a boulder close to the track and, with a superhuman effort, once again shouting the battlecry pounced on them with his ever-ready khukri. Startled, the Pakistanis dropped their loads and ran . Tired and on the verge of despair, Hav Gyan Bahadur continued his rather eventful journey downhill till he finally stumbled into the battalion's rear near Yaldor village.

The soldiers of 1/11 Gorkha Rifles while mopping up, found the bodies of all the seven Pakistani soldiers who fell to Hav Gyan Bahadur Tamang's khukri.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Jul 2011 21:01

Folks - 12 years ago our nation was in the thick of the Kargil war with those bhenchods across the border (may they all starve to death)

Just recalling some memories with a couple of pics
Captain (Dr.) Rajshree Gupta, Army Medical Corps (AMC), salutes the tricolour-draped coffin of her husband, Major Vivek Gupta of the 2nd Rajputana Rifles, who died fighting the enemy.

Moments before the final assault Capt. Vijyant Thapar (Robin) left this letter at the war front base, to be handed over to his family.

sum · Post by **sum** » 06 Jul 2011 21:39

^^ This was BJP war onlee, nothing to do with rest of country. That is why UPA will not celebrate Vijay Divas onlee.

We shouldn't remember such things of the past lest our upcoming talks with Pak break down as Pakis might feel offended and bad by such blatant,unwarranted jingoism.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 06 Jul 2011 21:50

Shiv Sir,
Thanks a lot for posting that latter. The emotions generated after reading this letter cannot be expressed in words.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 06 Jul 2011 23:21

shiv wrote:Folks - 12 years ago our nation was in the thick of the Kargil war with those bhenchods across the border (may they all starve to death)
Moments before the final assault Capt. Vijyant Thapar (Robin) left this letter at the war front base, to be handed over to his family.

Shiv, I have not heard about this letter before. I cried after reading this letter... Have forwarded it to a bunch of my friends.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 09 Jul 2011 11:51

shiv wrote:Folks - 12 years ago our nation was in the thick of the Kargil war with those bhenchods across the border (may they all starve to death)

Just recalling some memories with a couple of pics
Captain (Dr.) Rajshree Gupta, Army Medical Corps (AMC), salutes the tricolour-draped coffin of her husband, Major Vivek Gupta of the 2nd Rajputana Rifles, who died fighting the enemy.

Moments before the final assault Capt. Vijyant Thapar (Robin) left this letter at the war front base, to be handed over to his family.

Not forgotten. Thanks for posting.

jagbani · Post by **jagbani** » 12 Jul 2011 18:37

while reading above letter i didnt cry but i feel proud that i lives in India..