Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 2011

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 06 Jun 2011 14:22

GuruPrabhu wrote:
Johann wrote:The point is that the world is much bigger than either India or Pakistan, or even the two combined. It is important to remember when were are talking about global players like the United States, or for that matter Al-Qaeda. Being Indo-centric in thinking does not have to mean refusing to see the global picture.
That is a load of crock. One can just as easily say that the world is a bigger place than US and UQ combined if one takes into account places like New Zealand. Peddle your wares elsewhere, this is BR and your comments are about as useful as a Paki in Bradford.

While our motivations, interests and strategic goals need to be India-centric, our understanding of the world needs to take in the global picture. In that way, Johann has always made excellent contributions to the debate here on BRF. No need to come down like a pile of bricks on him for that. We are not the deaf-n-dumb.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 06 Jun 2011 14:52

The thread has been hijacked and diverted to the Taliban land. With no hope of rescue

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 06 Jun 2011 14:54

Predator drones will come to the rescue

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 06 Jun 2011 15:01

Actually, have been circling overhead for a while now. No Hellfires in the bay, and no need seen as yet. But would strongly recommend sticking to thread topic, and taking non-conforming discussions to another thread

Kanishka · Post by **Kanishka** » 06 Jun 2011 15:19

Eye say ephry pody rebort to benis dhaga (kave kamplex 420) phor debriphing yand Faatwa by see-near adminullahs.
Pring one lactating goat each. 400 stribes iph ju dont.
Sarry phor pinglish in thiz dhaaga.

Raja Ram · Post by **Raja Ram** » 06 Jun 2011 15:39

shiv wrote:
Raja Ram wrote:
1 The US should realise that the continued existence of this entity called Pakistan is a threat to US at all times. Pakistan should cease to exist as a nation state.

2. Without Indian cooperation, the destruction of Pakistan is not possible for the US.
Raja Ram - Pakistan will survive as a whole or in parts with different names. But the only country that can keep it alive is India. The US can't do it. China can't do it. KSA?

Nations need an economy to survive on and the only nation on earth that can support the economy of Pakistan is India. When the Pakistanis find that out is a matter of debate. But before that the US and China have to exhaust the,selves supporting a small elite segment of the Pakistani people.

shiv ji,
That is precisely the reason why the big and powerful US, the great challenger PRC and the Custodian of holy sites KSA have all been trying to get an "inconsequential threat" India to somehow come around to guaranteeing the continued survival and existence of this terror entity called Pakistan.

They all know it. They cannot ensure survival of this entity. The entity still has some purpose to serve all three. Some of them are mutual supportive objectives, some contradictory and some even conflicting. There is no interest at all for India to see this entity survive. The US still feels the need to prop Pakistan. One of the reasons, though unstated, is that this will continue to be a threat to India. Otherwise the US has more to loose than gain by having a pakistan around. That realization is not there yet. It is coming albeit slowly.

The twin myths, as I call it are being propogated here in India precisely because of this. No national interest of India is served by the survival of this state. India can actually hasten the logical process of this false entity. These powers are selling this lemon of peace with pakistan with a malicious intent. The sooner we recognise it as a nation the better.

Even if we do not want to upset these so called powers, the least India should do is to do nothing. Just stand and watch the down spiral of Pakistan and not throw any life line.

Johann,
With regard to your comments on my posts. All I can say without digressing our focus from the terrorist state of pakistan which is what this thread is all about, you have to read a lot more on how and what shaped US policy regarding India over the ages.

You may choose to ignore the idea of India and the civilizational ethos at your peril. The West had recognised early enough in its colonial interaction with India and its civilisation, what it represents to the world and were vigilant enough to ensure that the shackles they put in place in India was strong enough to delay the inevitable renaissance and rise of Indian civilization.

They had come in when the intrinisic civilizational and national thought was severly compromised by the earlier onslaught of Islamic invasion. The western one that moved in at the decadent end of Islamic invasion, knew what it meant to curb Indian thought and national ethos. They made sure they enslaved India and Indians mentally first.

That mental shackle is the one that is most difficult to break. India of today is beginning to break free. It is still work in progress, and the US would like to keep it that way for a long time. Hence their need for a Pakistan.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 06 Jun 2011 17:05

Amber G. wrote:Atriji - Many Many Many.. Thanks. Indeed very good poem.

Thanks google, here are the words:
एक नहीं दो नहीं करो बीसों समझौते, पर स्वतन्त्र भारत का मस्तक नहीं झुकेगा ।
अगणित बलिदानो से अर्जित यह स्वतन्त्रता, अस्रु स्वेद शोणित से सिंचित यह स्वतन्त्रता ।
त्याग तेज तपबल से रक्षित यह स्वतन्त्रता, दु:खी मनुजता के हित अर्पित यह स्वतन्त्रता ।
इसे मिटाने की साजिश करने वालों से कह दो, चिनगारी का खेल बुरा होता है ।
औरों के घर आग लगाने का जो सपना, वो अपने ही घर में सदा खरा होता है ।
अपने ही हाथों तुम अपनी कब्र ना खोदो, अपने पैरों आप कुल्हाडी नहीं चलाओ।
ओ नादान पडोसी अपनी आँखे खोलो, आजादी अनमोल ना इसका मोल लगाओ।
पर तुम क्या जानो आजादी क्या होती है? तुम्हे मुफ़्त में मिली न कीमत गयी चुकाई ।
अंग्रेजों के बल पर दो टुकडे पाये हैं, माँ को खंणित करते तुमको लाज ना आई ?
अमरीकी शस्त्रों से अपनी आजादी को दुनिया में कायम रख लोगे, यह मत समझो ।
दस बीस अरब डालर लेकर आने वाली बरबादी से तुम बच लोगे यह मत समझो ।
धमकी, जिहाद के नारों से, हथियारों से कश्मीर कभी हथिया लोगे यह मत समझो ।
हमलो से, अत्याचारों से, संघारों से भारत का शीश झुका लोगे यह मत समझो ।
जब तक गंगा मे धार, सिंधु मे ज्वार, अग्नि में जलन, सूर्य में तपन शेष,
स्वातन्त्र्य समर की वेदी पर अर्पित होंगे अगणित जीवन यौवन अशेष ।
अमरीका क्या संसार भले ही हो विरुद्ध, काश्मीर पर भारत का सर नही झुकेगा
एक नहीं दो नहीं करो बीसों समझौते, पर स्वतन्त्र भारत का निश्चय नहीं रुकेगा ।

shouldn't that be samhaaro ka
हमलो से, अत्याचारों से, संघारों से
not by attacks or atyachaar nor by massacres ...

he was immensely pumped up. rage of an ocean.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 06 Jun 2011 17:10

one thing i want to ask the forum.
massa backs tsp. tsp, afg taliban. ttp is up tsp's back.
tsp and afg taliban have both crossed paths with massa.
tsp has crossed paths with ttp.
have ttp and afg taliban crossed paths? how does that not happen?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 06 Jun 2011 17:24

Excellent post Raja Ram-ji.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 06 Jun 2011 17:44

Conventional wisdom suggests that the TTP and the Afghan Taliban are part of a single whole.
There is a load distribution between the two.
The afghan Taliban take control of Afghanistan, the TTP takes control of Pakistan - at least that is the stated goal.

Dunno if they've fought each other or had any major disagreements.

Sadler · Post by **Sadler** » 06 Jun 2011 17:53

The US ignored terrorism emanating from Porkistan against India simply because it did not, and still does not, give a $hit if brown-skinned, "heathen and pagan savages who refuse to accept jesus as their savior" get blown up. Be these savages men, women, pregnant women, children, a wheel-chair-bound senior citizen or any one else.

The ignorance of the US was a "christian" one. And IT STILL IS. You can put any erudite spin on it, it does not matter. It is only after 9/11, when whites were slaughtered that the US has acted in some substantial way.

If today, the porki terrorists arrived at an agreement with the US to target only hindus, the US would vacate Af-Pak in a heart-beat. Terrorism is only terrorism if white and/or christian babies die. My take on it. FWIW etc.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 06 Jun 2011 18:05

Freedom from darkness

Dear Pakistani Muslim brethren (and sisterren who became breteren), our armed forces have been fighting a war on two fronts. One is against corrupt civilian politicians, who want us to submit our sovereignty to Christian/Jew/McDonalds America and Hindu India, and one against uncircumcised Hindu/Christian/Atheist /Jain men posing to be Muslim warriors.

In this day and age of utter chaos and confusion in our Islamic republic, it is the duty of patriotic Pakistanis to continue informing their young compatriots as to why this country was formed.

There is so much these days out there in the electronic media and the cyber world about Pakistan, but unfortunately a lot of it is squarely aimed at confusing our young generations and making them rebel against their land’s ideology.

Dear compatriots, I must remind you that Pakistan came into being, first and foremost, to challenge the hegemony of the West, especially the United States.

To quote our great leader, Muhammad Ali Jinnah: ‘You are free to go to your mosques or some else’s mosques but only to a mosque in this Islamic republic. Religion is the business of the state and the business is gooood!’

It was such thoughts that made our great leader so unpopular with the Americans and Hindu India. Though many history books tell us that Jinnah had TB and died from this dreaded disease, the truth is far more tragic. He was murdered.

He was given slow poison by Lee Harvey Oswald who was sent by the CIA and was masquerading as a British doctor. He is the same guy who was later accused of shooting American President John F. Kennedy.

CIA agents in the then Pakistani government hid this fact from the people and forced Prime Minister Liaquat Ali Khan to join the US camp.

I have been privy to certain documents that include some pages from Liaquat Ali Khan’s diary. This is what he wrote after Jinnah’s death: ‘Today the beloved Islamic republic has lost a great modern day caliph due to the conspiracies of the Christian west. And now some of their agents in the Pakistani bureaucracy are asking me to make fraaaandship with the US. But I am not going to make fraaaandship with America. I will expose the agents. I will save the Islamic republic. But first I will go to mosque.’

We all know what happened to Liaquat Ali Khan Sahib. He was murdered at a rally in Rawalpindi. So now you know why he was killed. CIA agents in Pakistan claimed that he was killed by a demented Pushtun who in turn was killed on the spot by the police.

This is true, but what is not known is the fact that Liaquat’s killer was not a Pushtun but a Caucasian American posing as a disgruntled Pushtun.

Only the Pakistan army and some religious parties knew such truths, but they were throttled by the CIA agents in the bureaucracy and parliament, until Field Marshal Ayub Khan toppled the government and imposed Martial Law in 1958.

Dear readers, I am sure you have been told how it was Ayub Khan who took Pakistan further into the US camp. This is unfortunate because it is a blatant lie.

The truth is it was his foreign minister, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, who was the real architect of US-Pakistan relations.

He worked on Ayub’s back, keeping Ayub in the dark, sometimes quite literally, saying Pakistan was facing electricity crises for which it needed American aid.

I have with me pages from Ayub’s book, ‘Friends, Not Masters,’ that were not allowed to go into final print by Bhutto. I shall reproduce a paragraph from one such censored page.

‘For hours my office did not have any light. I called a minister and told him I am sitting in an office in the dark, I mean I am the president! The minister told me that my foreign minister, Z A. Bhutto, was on a state visit to the US for this very reason. I was floored. No one told me Bhutto had gone to Christen America. So when he came back I called him in my still darkened room and asked for an explanation. He stumbled and fell over a chair and said that had we been America’s friend, this room would have had light. I was furious. I told him how can we make fraaanship with Christian America! I told him we should make fraaaandship only with other Islamic countries. Like China.’

Throughout Ayub’s benevolent rule, he was kept in the dark by Bhutto, who then betrayed Ayub at the peak of the 1965 war against Hindu India. It was Ayub who wanted to keep the war going and liberate Kashmir. In fact according to insiders, Ayub also wanted to liberate West Bengal by invading Calcutta from East Pakistan. But Bhutto played a double game and convinced Ayub to sue for peace with Hindu India. However, once that was done, Bhutto left the government and began accusing Ayub of losing a won war on the negotiating table.

PPP dissident leader, Naheed Khan, showed me a page from a diary Bhutto kept but on which he only wrote with invisible ink. Naheed showed me how by cursing Asif Ali Zardari the invisible ink becomes readable. This may sound strange, but it’s true. She proved it to me while showing me a page from the diary, written by Bhutto the day he convinced Ayub to end the war with Hindu India. This is what he wrote:

‘I don’t believe it. He actually fell for it. LOL!’

Dear compatriots, we all know what happened next. CIA agents were back in business after Ayub’s fall. Bhutto took over as president and then prime minister and sustained a six-year attack on Islam and on those who wanted to challenge America and Hindu India. What’s more, Bhutto also humiliated our armed forces by misleading them in the 1971 war against Hindu India.

After keeping Yayah Khan in the dark as well, he sent the army to East Pakistan saying that it was West Bengal. He told the army to loot, plunder and rape Hindus of West Bengal. Yes, dear compatriots, our army jawans were mislead into believing that Dhaka was Calcutta. They were just simple men.

Had the army not toppled Bhutto’s regime in 1977, Pakistan would have become a part of the Christian/Jew American Empire.

There is so much negative propaganda against Ziaul Haq today. The truth is he was a humble and pious mustachioed man who simply defended Pakistan’s status as the last great bastion of Islam.

After hanging Bhutto, he had a meeting with the then young Hamid Gul and told him: ‘I am a humble and pious mustachioed man who has simply defended Pakistan’s status as the last great Playstation ® of Islam.’

Gul is said to have shed tears of joy after hearing this and is believed to have gone out and single handedly flogged over a hundred PPP activists in public.

It is a misconception that Zia Sahib entered the Afghan Civil War against the atheist Soviet Union on the behest of Christian America. Gul told me that Zia and his generals along with the great Jamat-i-islami at once drew an elaborate plan to construct a world caliphate by going to war against Soviet Union.

This, they rightly felt would draw the anti-Soviet US into the war. After defeating the Soviets with American help, Zia planned to turn his guns on Christian America and defeat them too. For this Zia began preparing future jihad armies, yes, the same ones whom we now so unfortunately call extremists and terrorists.

Zia turned Pakistan into a pious and mustachioed Playstation ® of Islam where everybody was a Muslim and a man (mashallah, even the women became men as well), and were free to go the mosque and only to the mosque, he defeated the Soviet Union.

But, alas, just as he was about to activate the second part of his elaborate and ingenious plan by starting a war against Christian/Jew/***** America, a traitor broke wind.

That’s how America got wind of this plan and unleashed their agent, Benazir Bhutto. It was her husband, Asif Ali Zardari, who worked closely with the CIA in drawing out a diabolic plan to assassinate Zia.

Just before Zia set off on that fateful plane journey he told Gul: ‘I am a simple and pious mustachioed man who just wants to become a simple and pious mustachioed caliph. But yesterday when I said this to some of my generals, one of them broke wind. I asked him about it and he said it was just a case of gas, but now I believe his breaking of wind was some kind of a coded message to my enemies.’

Gul started shedding tears of anger and is said to have ran out in slow-motion and single-handedly created the anti-Bhutto alliance, the Islami Jamhoori Itehad (IJI).

With the tragic assassination of Zia, Pakistan’s dream of becoming the leader of an international caliphate was wiped out and we again became slaves of the Christian America.

The US and its agents in the Pakistani media are winning the propaganda war in which they are portraying liberation fighters like Taliban and al Qaeda as terrorists, when the truth is, it is these simple, pious bearded men and women who have become men are our best strategic assets to one day help us liberate Afghanistan, Kashmir, Chechnya, Bosnia, Iraq, Lebanon and most of all, Papua New Guinea.

They are the noble seeds with which Pakistan will truly become the greatest Playstation ® and Nintendo ® of jihad, hijab, halal chips and nonalcoholic perfume.

Keep your eyes and ears open. Give your tax money to the army and don’t believe that liberal atheistic hype about putting more money into building schools, hospitals, factories, roads and all.

Mosques are all we need, because we are free to go to them.

Nadeem F. Paracha is a cultural critic and senior columnist for Dawn Newspaper

Pracha is hilarious in this piece in Yawn. Pakis expressing a lot of takleef in comments section, to be fair some laughing as well. Dunno if they understood.

Nandu · Post by **Nandu** » 06 Jun 2011 18:21

Christopher Hitchens tears the Pakis a new one.

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/feat ... den-201107

I think the "Pakis have no shame" chorus has started growing, and we will start to see more of that theme in the western press in the coming days.

Nandu · Post by **Nandu** » 06 Jun 2011 18:22

Kashi, at least mention where you are quoting from, if you are unable for some reason to provide an actual link.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 06 Jun 2011 18:23

I just had a tube-light moment reading the post by Raja Ramji and daaktar sahib on the need for USA/KSA/PRC to somehow ensure the survival of pakistan.

If one see all this BS emanating from west, we see the continued focus on need to solve Cashmere or how pakistan will go to the dogs (pigs, actually) and how India needs to do this or that. So, basically, what these countries are trying to do is save pakistan by again using a quick-fix surgery. All this while, by supporting the military and RAPE class, US was doing the bare minimum to save pakistan. It is like feeding a dog in your neighborhood with your left-overs and how he becomes loyal to you. Though, the same dog also has the tendency to go to anyone who offers better food...he'd prefer a bone over normal roti. But we digress!

I don't recall americans working with pakis in terms of better economic policies, assisting in establishing institutes of higher learning or things on the lines of our 'modern temples' in 50s and 60s. No financial asistance plan or favorable treaty or things like that. Not that RAPES or military would have asked for these things - after all, Kabila Guards only look forward to their need and protection money! the americans paid the protection money to the RAPES and military and got them to do their bidding in return. At no point in time, did the masters try to take the dog into their own compound and wash him and domesticate it. They were happy to let him be on the street...

Even now, when we know that the cancer in pakistan is in terminal stage, there is no word on long term solutions. It is again back to quick-fix solutions of more f-solhas, cashmere, CBM from India etc. etc. There is no long term planning. As doctor sahib puts it, only India can save pakistan. But I don't see any push from the so called global player super-power. It is all short-term. While some might say that they will eventualy see the reality, I think they are plain downright stupid. After all, if people like kissinger and cohen have held on to a belief for more than half a century, they are unlikely to let that go and see the light - that will basically mean accepting that they were idiots of highest order and committed the huge blunder that is pakistan today....these people actually have blood of americans on their hand.

So, i don't expect US SD to anytime gain the wisdom about position of India in the whole equation.....they will come to this stage by force and not by choice.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 06 Jun 2011 18:27

Nandu wrote:Kashi, at least mention where you are quoting from, if you are unable for some reason to provide an actual link.

It says Dawn newspaper at the bottom. Did not want to link to a Paki paper. Apologies, I thought it would be obvious. I'll amend my post.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 06 Jun 2011 18:39

Nandu wrote:Christopher Hitchens tears the Pakis a new one.

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/feat ... den-201107

I think the "Pakis have no shame" chorus has started growing, and we will start to see more of that theme in the western press in the coming days.

I think this is the most vitriolic verbal attack on Pakistan EVER!

Again to quote myself from 2001, if Pakistan were a person, he (and it would have to be a he) would have to be completely humorless, paranoid, insecure, eager to take offense, and suffering from self-righteousness, self-pity, and self-hatred. That last triptych of vices is intimately connected. The self-righteousness comes from the claim to represent a religion: the very name “Pakistan” is an acronym of Punjab, Afghanistan, Kashmir, and so forth, the resulting word in the Urdu language meaning “Land of the Pure.” The self-pity derives from the sad fact that the country has almost nothing else to be proud of: virtually barren of achievements and historically based on the amputation and mutilation of India in 1947 and its own self-mutilation in Bangladesh. The self-hatred is the consequence of being pathetically, permanently mendicant: an abject begging-bowl country that is nonetheless run by a super-rich and hyper-corrupt Punjabi elite. As for paranoia: This not so hypothetical Pakistani would also be a hardened anti-Semite, moaning with pleasure at the butchery of Daniel Pearl and addicted to blaming his self-inflicted woes on the all-powerful Jews.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 06 Jun 2011 18:56

Kashi wrote:
Nandu wrote:Kashi, at least mention where you are quoting from, if you are unable for some reason to provide an actual link.
It says Dawn newspaper at the bottom. Did not want to link to a Paki paper. Apologies, I thought it would be obvious. I'll amend my post.

Links to the Dung newspaper are quite ok.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 06 Jun 2011 18:57

Sadler wrote:The US ignored terrorism emanating from Porkistan against India simply because it did not, and still does not, give a $hit if brown-skinned, "heathen and pagan savages who refuse to accept jesus as their savior" get blown up. Be these savages men, women, pregnant women, children, a wheel-chair-bound senior citizen or any one else.

Actually it is a little more subtle than that.

The American view point was that India was getting clobbered because of incompetence and weakness. They never though anyone would dare try and take them on. Esp. after the examples they made of Vietnam, Korea, etc. Most especially take them on, on their own mainland. You could see this in their lackadaisical attitude towards security, esp. airport security. This when the rest of the world had layers of security and inspections.

They assumed that their 'competent' systems would deal with any threat quickly. This despite the evidence from Oklahoma, Waco, etc. They still think this way. This is why they think they can do a 'better' job on David Headley than any SDRE. This despite the evidence that the most feared posting for a terrorist is in J&K where none of them expect to return from. This is in stark contrast with say Afghanistan where they go for R&R, and where more civilians are being killed than terrorists.

Terrorist strikes in India are due to Indian 'casualness'. In a way they are right, though the real casualness was our inability to publicize our point of view WRT J&K. Americans and SDRE shared this common problem of leaving a lot unsaid esp. publicly. We make subtle hints and gestures without crassly stating things in the open. Contrast this with the TSP attitude of say anything, do anything to keep the Americans/Pandas involved in their country. This has changed form the American side recently, to the shock of TSP.

RonyKJ · Post by **RonyKJ** » 06 Jun 2011 19:08

Absolutely fantastic, precise article from Christopher Hitchens, telling it like it is.
But we all at BR have been saying the same for a decade. The only thing that he
hasn't mentioned is the role of the Chinese, who have been playing an equally
deceitful, shameless game as the Pakis

archan · Post by **archan** » 06 Jun 2011 19:12

From the Paracha rticle:

Zia turned Pakistan into a pious and mustachioed Playstation ® of Islam where everybody was a Muslim and a man

Link, by the way is here.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Jun 2011 19:54

As TSP goes deeper into toilet its apologists in US are losing their own credibility. There is only so much obfuscation thinking humnas can tolerate.

There is a Yiddish saying:

"The parents have eaten sour grapes and the children teeth are set on edge."

The meaning is older folks are quite happy eating sour grapes(spin), however the children ie the newcomers are not and will take action or expose the charlatans.

PS: I see this on the forum also.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 06 Jun 2011 20:06

http://www.samachar.com/Terrorists-coul ... adjjb.html

Agencies
Posted: Jun 06, 2011 at 1407 hrs IST
London The deadly E. Coli outbreak could have been spread by terrorists, say doctors, who add that rogue groups may have deliberately implanted the killer germ into fresh produce.

Suspects AQ

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Jun 2011 20:12

rajanb,
Looks like a plot from Ian Fleming's "On Her Majesty's Secret Service"!

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 06 Jun 2011 20:27

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/ ... 1420110606

By Shams Mohmand

PESHAWAR, Pakistan | Mon Jun 6, 2011 10:23am EDT

PESHAWAR, Pakistan (Reuters) - Pakistan's Taliban, a close ally of al Qaeda, plans to attack American targets abroad to avenge the death of Osama bin Laden, said one of its senior leaders.

Here we go again! Expect the drones to be busier than usual. And Pak sliding further downhill.

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 06 Jun 2011 20:33

shiv wrote:Johann-ji look at the following two data points, one posted by you and the other by me

Johann wrote:Do you have *any* idea how deeply the Patterns of Global Terrorism report underreported (a) terrorist violence in general and (b) Salafi jihadi violence in general?
and

Between January 1, 1988, and October 31,1998, (subsequent figures not yet available), there was a total of 38,753 Pakistani-sponsored terrorist incidents in Jammu & Kashmir. During the same period, according to the annual reports on the Patterns of Global Terrorism issued by the US State Department, there were 4,411 terrorist incidents in the rest of the world.
Clearly the US ignored Salafi violence and it ignored tens of thousands of terrorist act in India. You have yourself stated in a recent post that the US was "myopic".

How then Johann did you see fit to make the post quote below which has no hint of US myopia and no hint of the US ignoring of salafi violence that you so indignantly (and self righteously, if I may add) ask whether I have any idea about?

Johann wrote: The point is that the world is much bigger than either India or Pakistan, or even the two combined. It is important to remember when were are talking about global players like the United States, or for that matter Al-Qaeda. Being Indo-centric in thinking does not have to mean refusing to see the global picture.
Clearly you were typing without thinking. That was a bad statement to make. Not that India is important. Don't imagine that my "sense of pride as an Indian is being hurt". Not at all. It is my bullshit meter that rings loudly when I read your granting of a mythical hallowed status to the US concerns as a "Global player". Those concerns were very narrow and very parochial. Hardly the global concerns of a global player The same global player whom you know has ignored all sorts of terrorism and whom you now call "myopic". "Global player" and global myopia do not go together no matter how hard one tries to explain it away. How about selective stupidity and the same sort of narrow mindedness that afflicts Indians when they complain about terrorism against them as a more appropriate and and less hoity-toity description? Please. It was a minor error but an error nevertheless. There is no point trying to defend the indefensible.

Shiv,

Why the binary thinking? You can be huge, active on the global level, and blinkered at the same time, filtering out everything that doesn't match what you're looking for.

The larger point was that America's blinkers were never just about Pakistan or India. They were world-sized. To fail to see that is to fail to examine US response to the Salafi Jihadi movement on the global scale, which represents a different kind of blinkers. I have no problem discussing either one.

America's Arab allies were screaming at the Americans about the Arab jihadi threat after 1990, and it wasn't until America took several direct hits, and several huge near-misses that they started to wake up before falling asleep all over again when the Bush Administration came in on January 2001. If thats the way the took warnings from close allies of many decades, how seriously were they going to take broad strategic warnings from India about jihad from Pakistan in the 1990s, when India and the US were neither friends nor enemies? It has been horribly tragic for all concerned.

At this point the most problematic strategic conviction in American minds at this point is that
a) keeping the PA intact is the best way to prevent lose nukes

Which of course is nonsense, but is still deeply believed nonsense thanks to an (eroding) inertia in thinking. As I've said here before a number of times, a strong nuclear deterrent posture aimed openly and squarely at Pakistan, instead of publicly denied, and frankly unworkable contingency options of SF and conventional bombings against the Pakistani arsenal and fissile material stocks.

b) Pakistan's Deobandis are too crazy to respect nuclear deterrence if they ever come to power

which may not be nonsense, but should not be treated as dogma either. Its something worth discussing.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 06 Jun 2011 20:36

Sadler wrote:The US ignored terrorism emanating from Porkistan against India simply because it did not, and still does not, give a $hit if brown-skinned, "heathen and pagan savages who refuse to accept jesus as their savior" get blown up. Be these savages men, women, pregnant women, children, a wheel-chair-bound senior citizen or any one else.

The ignorance of the US was a "christian" one. And IT STILL IS. You can put any erudite spin on it, it does not matter. It is only after 9/11, when whites were slaughtered that the US has acted in some substantial way.

If today, the porki terrorists arrived at an agreement with the US to target only hindus, the US would vacate Af-Pak in a heart-beat. Terrorism is only terrorism if white and/or christian babies die. My take on it. FWIW etc.

I have been saying the same thing since 9/11. In fact, soon after 9/11, after the horror sunk in, I had this moment of frission when I thought finally, India & US will be on the same side and TSP's moment of justice will arrive. Little did I realize then that US's geo-political need for TSP in the region to contain India is so acute that my expectation tunred out to be a mirage.

In addition to what you say, I will aslo add this moral self-righteous dimension, perhaphs again stemming from this evanjelical Christian mindset. As long as Pakis were slaughtering us SDREs, ass-holes like Uneven and other racist slime balls can nsit in the comfort of the AC offices in US and blow hot air on Paki about Paki terror as a manifestation of Muslims Vs Hindus (of course aided in large measure by traitors like P'Roy, A'Roy looking for notoriety with the western elite, and "useful iditos" like Digvijay Singh), and not evil tormenting good, like Al Queda Vs west. And its the white man's burden to bring piss to both.

What is amazing to me now is that even though the Hindus Vs Muslims narrative is on the backburner while talking about TSP terror, the need for India to appease TSP using a different set of fraudulent "globalized" set of arguments is the new poisonous evil that is getting etched into public consciousness. Now whether this is failure of India to drive home the point, or it is the rock hard racist western mind that is unable to see the truth or a combination of both is unclear to me.

Guys, I noticed some of my posts on MMS Vs Ramdev were removed. Is there a thread on BR where Ramdev's travails are being discussed?

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 06 Jun 2011 20:38

ramana wrote:Its grotesque/macabre humor to pass off 26/11 attackers picture as Ilyas Kashmiri who was the handler/trainer of that gang.

It is probably a message to India. Unless they are absolute stupid morons, they definitely knew India would immediately see through their bluff. So then why do it?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Jun 2011 20:38

Countries can be manipulated temporarily if leaders can be manipulated. The colonial powers and the US have done that. Been there done that.

If the leaders are not amenable to manipulation, supporting and arming other leaders and splinter groups and encouraging rebellion can be done. The colonial powers and the US have done that as well. Been there done that.

Using the above strategies at best a country's leaders will bow to the demands of the manipulating power. If not it will sink into strife with insurgencies and internal revolt - which is great for finding some leader or other to support.. This has been a constant theme of colonial power games.

In some cases an old country can split and one or more of the split nations can end up being stable states. If the stable state is friendly to the colonial power that is fine. KSA and some Gulf states are such states. If the new states are unfriendly to the colonial power you get Vietnam.

If the split states are at loggerheads you get India and Pakistan, Taiwan and China, North and South Korea. The act of legitimizing ba$tard states and extremists states and supporting them selectively it is possible to keep other nearby states "balanced". Pakistan was created as a state that would be controlled by colonial Britain - a role handed to the US by Olaf Caroe as Rajaram mentions and as is recorded in Sarila's book.

Pakistan is a case of "pliable leaders" and population getting screwed, It worked for over 50 years. The colonial plan is beginning to crumble now. Crumbling because handouts cannot support a 180 million population in a country with no natural resources and no way of running an economy. One could flood Berlin with food and aid. Small nations with small populations can be supported by huge economies. Large nations can't. In fact Britain succeeded for a century or so by Macaulay's idea of "developing India" as a market for British goods. It was a brilliant plan, but the developing India became too big for the colonizer.

Pakistan cannot be supported on handouts - only the elite can. And the anarchy in Pakistan is a symptom of mutinies in Pakistan boiling over. There could be two futures for Pakistan. One is as a bunch of failed states who are butchering each other and starving. In fact this is a good description of Pakistan today but nobody outside BRF will believe it - what with the likes of Riedel insisting that Pakistan is a gloriously successful country. The other future for Pakistan is one in which its economy - an agrarian economy can support at least 50% of its population while the rest are developed over time.

Only India can allow this to occur. No other country can do it even if they loved Pakistan enough to shower wealth on Pakis. And it can occur only when Pakis kill enough of each other to be able to set aside hate for India. But Pakistanis need to see a lot more suffering and strife before they see sense. And yes - Indian hegemony is the pill that everyone will have to swallow. That is the way it works in the subcontinent whether anyone likes it or not.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Jun 2011 20:57

Johann wrote: Why the binary thinking? You can be huge, active on the global level, and blinkered at the same time, filtering out everything that doesn't match what you're looking for.

Johann that is a poor excuse for the statement you actually made. Globally active or not, the US is US centric. Indians are Indo centric. Why on earth should Indians look at or bother about the global picture. The US does not do that either . You say so yourself. "Myopia" Remember? "Blinkered" .

"Active on a global level" is a meaningless statement. Every nation is "active on a global level" within the limits of their power. Including New Zealand as someone pointed out. But if they are unable to think globally and think local they are no different in being blinkered.

Your statement was actually a patronizing one that said "The US is global. Indians are indo centric". Clearly you were bullshitting because the US is very US centric; thinking very very locally, and unable to grasp the significance of what is going on around the globe. Its activity on the global level did zilch to protect the US from a strike. So why did you say that Indians are Indo centric and not thinking on a global scale? All you are doing is making a straw man accusation about Indo-centric Indians while making a spurious claim that the US is global in its thinking.The US was unable to see the global picture either. What's in it for you to suck up and support the US in this manner? Was that some rhetorical fun you were trying to have? That statement of yours was sanctimonious ill thought out rubbish and needs to be trashed.

Here is what you said

Being Indo-centric in thinking does not have to mean refusing to see the global picture.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 06 Jun 2011 21:16

guys - my interpretation of what Johan is saying is that the US thinks highly US centrically but acts globally to impose that view. India does not think globally and does not act globally. We therefore shouldn't really expect the US historically to have given a rat's musharraf about us since our interests did not coincide. Now as our interests are intersecting, the US is starting to pay more attention to our point of view, but does not subscribe to the whole view.

i don't really see why everyone is getting so worked up about this

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 06 Jun 2011 21:20

i don't really see why everyone is getting so worked up about this

Absolutely. US does think local and act global. It's got bases in hundreds around the world. India does not even think regionally at times. Look at our response to Tibet, Myanmar, Nepal. We've just woken up to Panda activity in Africa and Central Asia. US has got it's fingers literally everywhere on the globe.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Jun 2011 21:20

Lalmohan wrote:
i don't really see why everyone is getting so worked up about this

Lalmullah the wording of the paragraph was, in my view, sanctimonious and subtly insulting. I am not the only person who did not like its tone. You write a nasty sounding paragraph people are going to ask you to justify it. And Johann is quietly moving the goalposts without acknowledging that he made a boo boo. The "US thinking locally" was an afterthought added after his statement was challenged. All he needs to do is to say that it was worded wrong.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Jun 2011 21:22

Lalmohan, Please see the Yiddish saying I posted above.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 06 Jun 2011 21:26

There is an element of thought here in BR that US/Western/Anglo attitude towards India are a manifestation of a deep set loathing/fear/hatred of the Indic civilization. That is often cited as the fundamental reason behind the support of TSP etc.

On the other hand, we also have the talk of the Blunt project and how the Pakjabis were propped as an alternative to the Ottoman Empire.

Then there is the view from Johann which basically says that India was for most part irrelevant in the global chess game. This often results in visceral reactions.

And of course there is truth to the fact that with the liked of UPA/DiggiRaja and what not, India has been projecting itself as a weak civilization and hence if the snake oil men do =/= it is not that unexpected.

The truth is somewhere in the middle of all these. Further what becomes the driving force also changes as Western leaders and interests change.

What would be really useful would be
1. To find evidence to support/deny each of these thesis
2. Investigate who is subscribing to these thesis right now and what are their motivations
3. Make efforts to address these people using the appropriate tools, in order to further the cause of Indic civilization.

#3 can not happen if we do not have a good understanding of #1 and #2.

What pains me that when it comes intellectual discourse, there are folks who also act like Taleban on this board. OTOH when it comes to the use of violence as instrument of interest preservation, Indics (or whatever represents them now) do not use it appropriately (or even against those who support Indic causes).

It would be better to be as open minded as possible when it comes to intellectual discourse and as firm as possible when it comes to actions.

====

Hakimji:

I think Johann has spent enough bytes and time of his own to make his viewpoint and perspective clear. To pick on one sentence of his (which you are possibly correct on) while ignoring the broader context just results in mud-slinging. While your reaction though strong was to the point, that was not necessarily the case with some others.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 06 Jun 2011 21:34

ramanaji thats fine, however the children will continue to have teeth on edge unless they get some water. i dont think the answer lies in us getting the US to accept our 'old reality', but to create a new reality that they cannot but accept. its a bit like appraisals at work - if you start off with a bad few weeks/months - that gets remembered in appraisal after appraisal, until and unless you do something stellar and create a new image that totally obliterates the old one

VikramS - spot on, its the "irrelevance" that gets to some of our goats. i have said the same thing a number of times on this dhaaga alone. 'How dare they think we are irrelevant? How can that be? when everything i know tells me that i am x, y, z' - well perceptions are perceptions regardless of the reality. think about my appraisal example, our 'old view' will always remain irrelevant to the west, our new image - if we build it well - will force them to accept our relevance. the chinese have succesfully done so in the past 3 decades

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 06 Jun 2011 21:44

VikramS: Hope the information in this blog provides some useful tid-bits. http://dharma-yuddham.blogspot.com/2010 ... story.html to understand some of the emotions of BRFites.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Jun 2011 21:44

VikramS wrote: Then there is the view from Johann which basically says that India was for most part irrelevant in the global chess game. This often results in visceral reactions.

India is pretty irrelevant. But in the context of terrorism the statement that the US's actions were relevant is in my view a load of tripe.

For all its global ability its actions before 9-11 were totally off the mark and its actions after 9-11 have remained that way. I have been told "The US is a safe place to live in. So there!" (not on this board - on a private list). I don't live in the US and I have to agree that the US is a safe place to live. Far safer than it was before 9-11. Isn't it?

Has the US paid a price for that safety? Has the US reached a point where its "global action" has now made it safe? If the answer is yes, then please allow me a few minutes to point out that India continues to be unsafe and US support to Pakistan, especially the army is part of India's problem.

Now if someone tells me that India is irrelevant, the US is globally active. it's anti terror actions relevant, and its support to Pakistan is for its own interest because the US sees the global picture - I would call that statement stupid. Someone please tell me why I am wrong in saying that. Or at least indicate disagreement.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 06 Jun 2011 21:57

shiv - firstly: i think the US is stupendously stupid in supporting the pakistan military.
my own experiences - whenever i have put this to mango americans (and some were well educated) - almost all will agree that india is 'better' than pakistan, BUT... the government must be doing the right thing, because the government usually does the right thing. (i don't meet too many cult leaders and rednecks holed up in the woods with guns and whiskey who hate the US government). during the bangladesh war, quite a few americans protested at their government's line on support to pakistan, and today, lots of americans continue to protest against what they think is wrong policy wrt pakistan. however - we can all agree that american policy at the sharp end has been detrimental to india. that still doesn't change the fact that from an american perspective they did what they did because they thought it was right.
clearly, i don't and you don't think it was right - nor do i think does JOhann, but there are some americans who did and still do. the value judgement of "stupid" is yours to make, but not theirs to agree to. i see this as a fundamental impasse in this line of thinking. one that cannot be resolved by 'you must agree to my perception' style of thinking - on either side.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 06 Jun 2011 22:03

shivji: I do not disagree with anything you say. What pains me is that how the message is responded to. Issues can be argued without resort to bullying and other techniques used to shut down the discussion of alternative perspectives.

As I stated earlier, there are a different cogs in the machine which finally result in the policy and each cog comes with its own perspective/baggage/goals/ambitions. Having a good understanding of where each cog is coming from results in a more effective response. Just shutting down a train of thought simply because it does not agree with one's perception, WITHOUT taking the effort to establish its irrelevance is what bothers me.

=======

I firmly believe that US State Department is the worst enemy of the US. At the end of the cold war no one would have though that the US would be in the situation it currently is. They need to be fired. But it takes time to turn USS FoggyBottom around. Our focus should be on finding ways to help make that turn faster. To do that we need to understand the levers which can help push the Indic cause.