Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Jun 2011 05:50

Out of 60 planned test in Grumov center, we heard only a few (3?) on the news. I hope to hear more from there... and once those 60 tests are done, we could then start negotiation for rights to replace all IAF engines up various versions of Kaveri. Now, after those test, GoI must seriously look at reorganization of GTRE, to the scale of ISRO.

thammu · Post by **thammu** » 06 Jun 2011 18:52

Decks cleared for purchase of 10 C-17s with offsets

After considerable diligence and mathematics, India is all set to purchase 10 C-17 Globemaster strategic lift aircraft from US for $4.1 billion, with upfront offsets of $1.12 billion.
The Cabinet Committee on Security on Wednesday will consider a revised proposal for purchase of C-17s which, for the first time, outlines the offsets including a High Altitude Engine Test Facility and Trisonic Wind Tunnel Facility valued at $510 million, for the Defence Research & Development Organisation.
India’s access to advanced technology air tunnel would be important as it has depended on Russian test facilities to evaluate the indigenous Kaveri jet engine, which was to be used in the LCA project.
The other half of the offsets, according to the proposal, would be shared between Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd for training and maintenance for the aircraft, Tata Consultancy Services for defence strategic communication systems and Defence Land Systems — a joint venture between Mahindra Group and BAE Systems — for armoured vehicles.
The original proposal had talked of Boeing fulfilling its obligations under the Defence Procurement Procedure “as per policy” and hence, the offset was not stated. Under the DPP, any foreign company bagging contract worth over $300 million has to invest back at least 30 per cent of it into the Indian defence sector.
However, sources said, the C-17 offsets would cost India an additional 7-8 per cent in the total outgo on the purchase as the US has explained that it would be paying more for Indian offsets than it could have got the same services and products from other sources.
With this offset promise, decks have been cleared for the biggest-ever Indo-US defence deal under the American foreign military sales (FMS) programme, a direct government-to-government contract.
The four-engine Globemaster-III giant strategic airlift aircraft is capable of carrying a payload of almost 170,000 pounds and landing even at small forward airbases with semi-prepared runways and can transport tanks and troops over 2,400 nautical miles.

vina · Post by **vina** » 07 Jun 2011 10:39

thammu wrote: outlines the offsets including a High Altitude Engine Test Facility and Trisonic Wind Tunnel Facility valued at $510 million, for the Defence Research & Development Organisation.

Hmm.. I wonder where they would site it. It surely cant be Bangalore,Kerala. Those things guzzle electricity (a couple of Mega watts) like there is no tomorrow (even a blow down type), with the pumps operating for a couple of hours for a few mins of testing time .With the kind of power shortages here I wonder where in India has enough power to run these kind of things , even if you run the pumps in off peak hours.

The current wind tunnel at NAL, Bangalore Kerala in wind tunnel road is a trans sonic capable only, not supersonic.

The founder of NAL & the designer of that wind tunnel was from Trivandrum, Karnataka , a C.V Raman Pacchidee ishtoodent before going to Caltech (under Von Karmann iirc). I think it has done yoeman service in all these years.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Jun 2011 10:58

the ideal location is the huge new combined DRDO,HAL,ISRO,Atomic energy,IISC cluster coming up in Chitradurga spread over 5000 acres.

it will surely have a captive power plant esp if the atomic energy and IISC guys are going to be camping there.

the current wind tunnel is a nuisance...its howl is audible from many kms away in koramangala and happens at all odd hrs like 10pm too.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 07 Jun 2011 11:11

^^^^ too far away from ADA and HAL. IMO, it should be within NAL or HAL.

sum · Post by **sum** » 07 Jun 2011 11:13

Singha-saar,

The wind tunnel was built at that location precisely since it was far away from habitation ( at the time of building when K'mangala was nothing but forested swamp and HAL was almost like next town).
However, B'luru has grown so much that we have people living yards away from such installations which causes it to be a nuisance for those people!!

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 09 Jun 2011 17:47

am working on a materials tech for Indian aero engine program. Will post it next week. We have SC blade making tech for AL-31 F.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 09 Jun 2011 19:36

chackojoseph wrote:am working on a materials tech for Indian aero engine program. Will post it next week. We have SC blade making tech for AL-31 F.

Send me the article, i'll proof read it for you... I am available and can give you a quick turnaround

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 09 Jun 2011 19:50

cheenum wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:am working on a materials tech for Indian aero engine program. Will post it next week. We have SC blade making tech for AL-31 F.
Send me the article, i'll proof read it for you... I am available and can give you a quick turnaround

It will be a more than proof reading.

I will send you another one. Its already taken.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Jun 2011 20:06

I brotest if you guys discuss all these newj shtuff here, and not in private. unless it is out in public please don't make us aam public left in a seeking mode for the information. This is obstruction of information brotest! [ unless it is all done in a matter of minutes]

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 10 Jun 2011 23:59

x-post

SaiK wrote:... why bother to go for ECO core?

I don't think it is ECO core, but a new design with Snecma's material tech. They are planning to match performance of highest thrust GE414. ECO core will not do it. See the quotes below.

http://www.geae.com/aboutgeae/presscent ... 01001.html

The F414-GE-INS6 is the highest-thrust F414 model

Highest thrust F414 is 120KN.

http://www.livemint.com/articles/2011/0 ... l?atype=tp

While Snecma will bring in critical technology for the hot engine core, DRDO’s Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) will work on the cold sections around it.

“GTRE will have 50% technology work-share and Snecma will have the other half. We will be closing price negotiations within a month,” said Prahlada, chief controller, research and development, DRDO

....
Prahlada declined to reveal the estimated cost of the Snecma-GTRE project, but said the new engine will be comparable in pricing and performance to the GE-414. DRDO plans to replace the GE engines on the LCA Mk-I with the Snecma-GTRE engine. “We have plans to fit the engine on all platforms, including the proposed advanced medium combat aircraft and unmanned combat air vehicle,” Prahlada said.

Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd will manufacture the engines in India. Prahlada said the agreement is to make 100 engines in the first batch.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 11 Jun 2011 01:02

x-post

More proof that it is a new design from AKA.

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-5045

"It is proposed to develop production version Kaveri (K10) engine on co-design and co-development basis with Snecma of France. The technical evaluation for this proposal has been completed. Tender purchase committee is negotiating the commercial aspects," Antony said in a written reply during question hour.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Jun 2011 01:04

thank you sivab. 120kN Kaveri would be awesome! and hope they get a sign off on that from the prime users as well.

I hope we have to keep a watch on ddm, that should bring in ECO anymore into discussion with Kaveri.. so it is not ECO anymore.

cool.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 11 Jun 2011 01:33

SaiK wrote:thank you sivab. 120kN Kaveri would be awesome! and hope they get a sign off on that from the prime users as well.

You are welcome. Prime users are involved in negotiations.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/02/ka ... ament.html

India's Kaveri turbofan engine programme came up in Parliament today. Here's what the House was told: "It is proposed to develop production version Kaveri (K10) engine on co-design & co-development basis with M/s Snecma, France. The technical evaluation for this proposal has been completed. Tender Purchase Committee (TPC) with members from DRDO, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), Indian Air Force (IAF), Indian Navy (IN) and Integrated Finance (R&D) is negotiating the commercial aspects."

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Jun 2011 08:11

so hopefully it will be like RR(hot section) and MTU(cold section) JV for EJ200 with hispano suiza supplying some other parts.

Mashallah, it would be a fantastic achievement if we can get a production certified 120KN engine from this deal, and the freedom to play around with it and tailor it for various single and twin engine uses....

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 11 Jun 2011 08:52

Its the Kabini Core with upg thrust. The hot sections will be brought in by Snecma. The cold section they are talking about is Kabi Cold section. We have mastered that. You will get the idea when the I upload the kaveri article. You can clearly see what we have and what materials are expected of this venture.

disha · Post by **disha** » 11 Jun 2011 09:01

sivab wrote: http://www.livemint.com/articles/2011/0 ... l?atype=tp
....
Prahlada declined to reveal the estimated cost of the Snecma-GTRE project, but said the new engine will be comparable in pricing and performance to the GE-414. DRDO plans to replace the GE engines on the LCA Mk-I with the Snecma-GTRE engine. “We have plans to fit the engine on all platforms, including the proposed advanced medium combat aircraft and unmanned combat air vehicle,” Prahlada said.

Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd will manufacture the engines in India. Prahlada said the agreement is to make 100 engines in the first batch.

If the above pans out, then jingoes should break into lungi dance. Even if the engine is 90% of GE-414 with 110% of its cost and 90% of its reliability, that is a cause for celebration. Then we can support vietnam's right to sail and fish in the south china sea. And Afghanistan's right to manage its own borders from taliban by monitoring its own airspace with ample help from SDRE yindoos.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 11 Jun 2011 09:17

chackojoseph wrote:Its the Kabini Core with upg thrust. The hot sections will be brought in by Snecma. The cold section they are talking about is Kabi Cold section. We have mastered that. You will get the idea when the I upload the kaveri article. You can clearly see what we have and what materials are expected of this venture.

You are over simplfying it. Technically, mass flow rate has to increase, compression ratio has to improve, by pass ratio has to improve etc. to get similar thrust & SFC performance as highest thrust F414. These are not trivial changes. It may be called Kabini K10 core, but it will be a totally new design. Its a big change from K9 with ~75KN. Its just not hot section that has to change, cold section has to be changed considerably as well. Both has to happen else there will be no improvement. We may not need new materials for cold section, but to say that it is same old cold section is non-sense.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 11 Jun 2011 09:32

sivab wrote:You are over simplfying it. Technically, mass flow rate has to increase, compression ratio has to improve, by pass ratio has to improve etc. to get similar thrust & SFC performance as highest thrust F414. These are not trivial changes. It may be called Kabini K10 core, but it will be a totally new design. Its a big change from K9 with ~75KN. Its just not hot section that has to change, cold section has to be changed considerably as well. Both has to happen else there will be no improvement. We may not need new materials for cold section, but to say that it is same old cold section is non-sense.

I do understand these things. As I interacted with the folks, they were clear that its Kabini Core. The tech has been developed. They have issues with hot section. The increase in thrust etc will require more effort. I am not denying it.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 11 Jun 2011 09:33

I don't mean to be a wet blanket here, but I'm not so optimistic about this venture.

1. If this is modification of the existing design then it doesn't seem to be technically very feasible. Scaling up from 75kN to 120kN is no mean challenge.

2. If this is a new engine, it'll take plenty of time to mature. Both the EJ-200 and M88 spent over a decade in development. General Electric's progression from the 78kN F404 to the 120kN F414 happened over the course of three decades. Its very unlikely that a F414 class Kaveri will be ready before the Tejas Mk2 production line closes (which will probably happen before the FGFA enters production). Its good start for the AMCA on the other hand - 2020-25 for flight testing seems about right.

3. Most importantly I'm skeptical about the actual degree of co-development involved. The French seem to have no requirement for a new engine - it'll probably not be compatible with the Rafale (to be upgraded with a 90kN class unit). On the bright side, a longer development period would mean more time for India to internalize the technology and learn the critical design lessons involved. Relatively less chance of us ending up with a 'co-developed' Shakti type product.

vic · Post by **vic** » 11 Jun 2011 09:41

Will India be involved in designing of hot section? As most of the high tech lies in hot section. Will we get tech to "manufacture" hot section components unlike shakti engine JV?

vic · Post by **vic** » 11 Jun 2011 09:47

chackojoseph wrote:
sivab wrote:

I do understand these things. As I interacted with the folks, they were clear that its Kabini Core. The tech has been developed. They have issues with hot section. The increase in thrust etc will require more effort. I am not denying it.

And I thought core refers to hot section?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 11 Jun 2011 10:26

The turbine "nozzles" or "vanes" (or the back) are the hottest part of any aircraft engine. Logically, the exhause fan etc. The air goes through the core of the engine as well as around the core. This causes some of the air to be very hot and some to be cooler.

^^^^^ These are somethigs I found on seach engine.

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 11 Jun 2011 12:55

Dont want to play spoil spot, but what makes us believe that K10 is to be developed to meet F414 with 120KN. Normal specs of F414 is 98Kn. More likely that it is 98Kn that they are trying to match. Besides, it has also been report multiple times that K10 aims to acheive thrust in range of 90-95 Kn.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Jun 2011 17:22

chacko.. relax your search engine.. you may be actually talking to people who really work on these or have worked with it (I know sivab for sure on LCA), and perhaps an oppty to learn. /2c.

the hotness actually begins at combustion, and there is only one way out in the decreasing order of temperature zone.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 11 Jun 2011 17:45

SaiK, That means after intakes and the top casing, GTRE won't contribute.

The hot places means "extremely hot." Its mostly the fan blades, exhaust combuster chamber etc. At the same time, if Kaveri is flying on test bed and it has heat area materials replacement faster than other benchmark engines, then Kaveri must be surely at some stage where GTRE has a meaningful contribution.

sivab is technically right when he says its a new engine. Its common knowledge that that the trust is higher and the "existing" core will not be enough. My argument is that the core design may not change drastically and will be limited to the what it requires for a upg. A new core + entire engine may not be possible by 2015 or even 2017.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 11 Jun 2011 18:32

chackoji: I agree it is a new design a sense and an iteration of design from k9 to k10 in a sense. Its not a start from scratch.

saik: You probably have me confused with someone else.

We all know that IAF would not touch ECO core with a 100ft pole a year or so ago. They were screaming snecma making a backdoor entry. Now they have dropped all objections and were sitting in price negotiations. So it is safe to say that they are satisfied with promised technical parameters of new design. That includes thrust, SFC, reliability, life etc. Having selected highest rated F414 for LCA MkII which must be some version of EPE, I don't think they will settle for older F414-400 type performance. Note that they were trying to sell EPE for MRCA.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Jun 2011 18:57

mm.. sorry. pls. ignore and continue.

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 11 Jun 2011 20:12

chackojoseph wrote:At the same time, if Kaveri is flying on test bed and it has heat area materials replacement faster than other benchmark engines, then Kaveri must be surely at some stage where GTRE has a meaningful contribution.

Looks like the reason GTRE can't improve the thrust is not that they don't know what to fix, but don't know how to, given lack of metallurgical skills ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Jun 2011 20:49

yes I think snecma will bring in exotic materials and machining and their priceless pool of test data thats the key to having a 2 yr proj by seasoned operator -vs- 10 yrs of hard fought gains by a newbie. nobody parts with such priceless data.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Jun 2011 20:53

every body knows what to do. how tos are always based on data. If we are not investing in R&D for data collection, then pay somebody else who is willing to provide that data.

now, it is still not late imo, that we can reinforce on investments on such data locally without snecma involvment, make us not just walk with broad shoulders, but with bright smile as well.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 11 Jun 2011 22:56

Raw power is only one of the parameters for the performance. Aircraft design, intended usage, altitude preference and engine T/W designs will have to be taken in account. Kaveri is custom designed for LCA so it may make a better fit even with a lower thrust @ xyz altitude.

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 11 Jun 2011 22:58

Singha,
Offsets for the Rafale

. We've managed to get a good deal out of the C17s no ?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 Jun 2011 09:00

the recent posts from mrca thread also confirms this is not ECO core. /period.. this puppy if 120kN (new puppy, whatever it is baselined off it does not matter) then start making halwa.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 12 Jun 2011 23:21

Bummer, GE slides in this presentation shows F414-INS6 in 98KN category.

http://www.boeing.com/AeroIndia2011/pdf ... iefing.pdf

which conflicts with link below for F414-INS6 being highest thrust F414

http://www.geae.com/aboutgeae/presscent ... 01001.html

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 12 Jun 2011 23:43

This was posted by rakesh on MMRCA thread..

Rakesh wrote:France's Rafale fighter proves its 'omnirole' skills
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... kills.html

Propulsion system supplier Snecma, meanwhile, will deliver its first enhanced examples of the M88 engine to Dassault's Merignac final assembly site in November, after completing the last test activities on the -4E version this month. Drawing on the activities of Snecma's ECO development programme of 2004-07, the new standard will reduce ownership costs and maintenance demands, and will also have the growth potential to increase available power from a current maximum of 17,000lb (75kN) to roughly 19,800lb.

So, it seems that ECO can take the M88 to about 88 kN.

Making a 120 kN or even a 100 kN Kaveri based on ECO might require substantial changes in ECO itself.

@ Sivab, INS6 at 98 kN is surely a bummer if true.

ManojM · Post by **ManojM** » 12 Jun 2011 23:57

GE press release is right - in a way. The INS6 is the current highest thrust model of the 414 family while the EPE with higher thrust is shown in the Boeing timeline as ~2015. The Boeing pdf also alludes to the EPE being under development.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 13 Jun 2011 10:14

sivab!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

where does it say 120kN (~27klbs)? the 22000lbs should convert to 98kN aprox.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Jun 2011 11:16

why would Tejas need an engine with the thrust of AL31. thats more appropriate for a much heavier plane in the F-16-block60 category?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 13 Jun 2011 12:31

Singha wrote:why would Tejas need an engine with the thrust of AL31. thats more appropriate for a much heavier plane in the F-16-block60 category?

Singha,

I may not be entirely right on this, but, folks are on high horse power thrust here. The fact that kaveri is "flat rated" excapes the logic of discussion here. Kaveri should be able to cove constant high thrust and variable thrust is not required.