Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 2011

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 07 Jun 2011 16:48

Our think tanks wanted greater trade with Pakistan all these years didn't they? This MFN thing? What happens if they actually say they want to trade with us? We will only be postponing Pakistan's day of judgement to another day, delaying it by a decade, and in the process lose a few thousand innocent indian citizens along the way.

Good post Gaga ji. The above is of much significance. How long do we have to cope up with a disfunctional, parasitic and terrorist state. The costs of propping it up may be frankensteinian to us in the long run. India may provide much needed oxygen for Frankenstein to survive, but to what effect? Pakistan does not want peace. It wants to survive to antoher day so that it can hit back at India at some way. That is it's raison de etre. This talk about stabilizing Pakistan is talk about stabilizing a monster. You are right also in your assessment that Paki's will be better off after a break up. The Kashmir problem and nuke problem will end immediately on the collapse of the Paki state.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 07 Jun 2011 17:03

shiv wrote:My views on some of them here. OT for this thread
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 7#p1105487

From the above post,

shiv wrote:I believe that these stereotyped images of India were never corrected - but Pakistani leaders played an active role in creating the impression of a progressive nation. You have probably seen some videos of Ayub Khan from the 1950s. No such positive publicity was given by India or Indians.

Two things I want to add to Shiv's post and I am posting them here because of their relevance.

One, the conscious and consistent Pakistani attempt to divorce itself from India did help to some extent in dissociating the Prince/Elephant/half-naked fakir/snake-charmer image from Pakistan and keep that image confined only to India.

Two, even today, the Pakistani access to newspapers, and TV channels is far more than to Indians either by design(by Pakistanis) or by neglect (by Indians) or both.

Added later: I'm referring to Western media.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 07 Jun 2011 17:05

possibly the desire of pakistanis to emulate arabs is partly driven by their desire to fill the 'right image' in the minds of their american masters...?

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 07 Jun 2011 17:35

I hope all those tunnels with bums / special stuff inside them didn't collapse.

Why would you want that??
I hope they collapsed and the bums are buried for good...
And sand is buried deep in the Musharrafs of those guarding them...

Or am I a dhimmi too???

Regards

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 07 Jun 2011 17:40

At a basic level, ordinary Indians were all the same, whether Muslims or others. The difference however came between the elites of Pakistani Muslim and secular Indian elites. The kind of attire the former wore, the types of parties they threw, the servile attitude they displayed (versus the moralizing stand of many Indian leaders) and their one-track mind of obsession with India which lead to their willingness to sacrifice any principle, endeared them to the Westerners, especially the Americans. The British, for their part, also 'handed over' Pakistan to the Americans once they realized that they have become a second-rate power.

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 07 Jun 2011 17:42

the Pakistani access to newspapers, and TV channels is far more than to Indians either by design(by Pakistanis) or by neglect (by Indians) or both.

I think I read in a book here in BR that there are very few television sets(in millions) in Pakistan.

Television sets per 1000 people - Pakistan has 22 TV sets per 1000 population

Is the Indian stat lower than that and by such margin so as to make it important enough to mention it?

Regards

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 07 Jun 2011 17:44

Here are the exact lines.

"Pakistan has only 3 million TV sets, for a population of 145 million. (8,9)"

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 07 Jun 2011 17:47

RSaomi, SS is talking about the Paki elite's access to western media vis-a-vis Indian's...

RSoami wrote:
the Pakistani access to newspapers, and TV channels is far more than to Indians either by design(by Pakistanis) or by neglect (by Indians) or both.
I think I read in a book here in BR that there are very few television sets(in millions) in Pakistan.
Television sets per 1000 people - Pakistan has 22 TV sets per 1000 population

Is the Indian stat lower than that and by such margin so as to make it important enough to mention it?

Regards

vdutta · Post by **vdutta** » 07 Jun 2011 17:55

I agree with Najam sethi that ilyas may not be dead. his inside sources said that he was not an intended target but happened to be there coincidentally. but despite of the strike he didnt die.
now they saw a good opportunity to send him underground for a while since Pakistanis and Americans are after him.he can re emerge later on to help the organization. same thing he did before.

I was surprized myself with the speed huji confirmed his death. usually they deny at first and only confirm when they have sorted out their leadership problem. plus the eagerness they showed to release the dead body photo is unprecedented. (remember people are still waiting on OBL's photos). no terrorist org has ever shown dead body to confirm their opponents story.
They did a sloppy job in finding a look alike dead body. i guess they used the first photo that showed up in google images search.

I personally believe he will come back again. now since his cover is blown he might have to alter his plan.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Jun 2011 17:58

SSridhar wrote:
shiv wrote:My views on some of them here. OT for this thread
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 7#p1105487
From the above post,
shiv wrote:I believe that these stereotyped images of India were never corrected - but Pakistani leaders played an active role in creating the impression of a progressive nation. You have probably seen some videos of Ayub Khan from the 1950s. No such positive publicity was given by India or Indians.
Two things I want to add to Shiv's post and I am posting them here because of their relevance.

One, the conscious and consistent Pakistani attempt to divorce itself from India did help to some extent in dissociating the Prince/Elephant/half-naked fakir/snake-charmer image from Pakistan and keep that image confined only to India.

I was introduced to the "warts of India" - the disease, death and no toilets when I was a teenager in medical college via a textbook that influenced my thinking deeply. There was never any effort to hide India's problems - and that resulted in every effort to solve them.

Pakistan on the other hand was actively dishonest with itself - at least the leaders and the elite refused to see anything negative. That is what has led to a gradual decline in Pakistan's social indicators. There was either denial or hiding behind India. If anything was bad in Pakistan - they said "Oh India is worse".

The results of this (to me) have been startling. I have been on BRF during the time of the 2001 census and we have just had the 2011 census. Literacy in India has risen from about 65 to 75%. In Pakistan - no census has been done for over a decade. Only "estimates" can be done and the literacy figures have stagnated for many years now - hovering about 47-49% depending on the source. Pakistan does not even have the schools and colleges and teachers required to educate its young - and about 35% (60 million) are below 15 years of age. Most will not even be Defndumb lurkers leave alone paklurks on here.

Pakistan is in deep trouble and people like Riedel and Watzername Fair are oblivious.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Jun 2011 18:00

RSoami wrote:Here are the exact lines.

"Pakistan has only 3 million TV sets, for a population of 145 million. (8,9)"

Even the periodicals and newspapers circulation in Pakistan is minscule compared with India. It is 3.5 million in Packeestan as opposed to 78 million in India

The TV figure was from my ebook researched and written before the explosion of cable/private TV in Pakistan. The latest figures:

TV sets per capita
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/med_t ... per-capita
Pakistan 19 per 1000
Kafiristan 59 per 1000

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 07 Jun 2011 18:09

Pakistan shakier than ever before - Anita Joshua in The Hindu

Six terrorists penetrated a high-security facility of the Pakistan Navy, destroyed two aircraft and held out against the elite forces of the armed services for well over 12 hours with two of them even managing to escape, ripping apart the painstakingly cultivated legend of the invincibility of Pakistan's men in uniform.

How can a less pious fight a more pious ? The rest of the world came to know about the truth of the 'legend of the invincibility of the PA' a long time back. The aam aadmi Abduls of Allah's Own Country had cognitive dissonance and refused to believe the truth even when it stared at their face. But, not any longer because the more pious are on the prowl now directly engaging the PA, PN, & PAF. In a jihad, how can the infidel, the murtad and the takfiri hope to win ? By resorting to attacks on the ISI, PA, PN, Punjab Police, Frontier Corps etc., the more pious are conveying a message, apart from other things, that the members of the armed forces had better become more pious too.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 07 Jun 2011 18:11

Lalmohan wrote:the US did indeed embrace a non judeo-christian culture whole heartedly when it suited its purpose - I am thinking of Thailand during the Vietnam war, and perhaps even South Vietnam and South Korea, possibly even Japan. During WW2, the US was starting to feel this love for the Chinese nationalists too

In South Vietnam,the ruling elite were Catholic and hostile to Buddhists.True in South Korea as well.Even in Hong Kong movies,the police officers are Christian and the criminals Buddhists,according to some one who I trust.I cannot verify the Hong Kong fact.But you can look up to Wikepedia on South Korea and Vietnam and these accounts are biased in favour of West.

From a western perspective,contempt for Nehrus sanctimonious socialism was understandable.From a protestant christian perspective,contempt for what passes as Hinduism and the religion of Buddhism is understandable.But the deliberate distortions of India and support for pakistan is deep rooted 'fear' of the bluff of binary cult of Western superiority being called and exposed.Again perfectly understandable from an imperial view.The Russian Revolution made US a conservative power which was conserving a modern version of Imperial Europe in a continent founded on liberal ideals for the white people.

The end of Soviet Union has made US less jaundiced and things have improved from then on all fronts excluding porkistan.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 07 Jun 2011 18:11

I personally believe he will come back again. now since his cover is blown he might have to alter his plan.

It suits TSP to spirit IK away, at this juncture.

He was one on the 5 most wanted by the US.

He was attacking TSP's assets and their non-assets (read Gernails)

So, what seemingly was a rock and a hard place for TSP has been converted into an opportunity. Help IK out by claiming he is vapourised. Hide him somewhere un der the carpet. The problem of Ik doesn't go away, but buys TSP time and also a favour from IK.

My peg of whisky's worth.

Kapil · Post by **Kapil** » 07 Jun 2011 18:25

Shiv--What was the name of that textbook?

Thanks
Kapil

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 07 Jun 2011 18:34

Lalmohan wrote:I am sure that the US would have developed deep but stand-off love for us had we not been non-aligned in the 50's and chosen to become part of SEATO/CENTO or whatever, i.e. go poodle. pakistan went fully poodle and then went a step further to gubo. therefore it figures that the US establishment allowed itself to be sucked into that vortex.

by the doctrine of 'with us or against us' our non-alignment translated into 'warsaw-pact-ally' - and we were of some unfathomable religious mindset too... sometimes we forget or underestimate the deeply ingrained anti-communist/anti-soviet mentality of the post WW2 american state

This is absolutely true. From the US point of view the cold war was an existential threat. Very life or death, and they were preparing for death. Esp. for the over 40 crowd. They definitely give a lot of patta to those who 'stood by them' through that.

From India's point of view, it was a wise thing we did not getting to0 involved in that battle. Elephants, grass, trampling and all. Those that got too close were destroyed on both sides. Vietnam, Afghanistan, Cuba, NK, Angola, etc. I'm sure the elites of that time knew that there would be a cost associated with that relative neutrality.

What we are doing in part is unfortunately paying a price for that neutrality. TSP was first in line and benefits/suffers from that fact.

At some point the price will be paid and things can revert to normal. I believe we are seeing that inflexion point right now.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Jun 2011 18:38

Kapil wrote:Shiv--What was the name of that textbook?

Thanks
Kapil

Preventive and Social Medicine by Park and Park

Samudragupta · Post by **Samudragupta** » 07 Jun 2011 18:41

Pakistan’s hostile gravitation to India is based paradoxically on its passion for escaping it: “In some ways Pakistan has been trying to escape its Indian legacy — historic, geographic and civilisational — and attempting to find security in a virtual relocation through ideology.” The fulcrum of ‘fleeing India’ was its religion-based identity. The founding fathers also constructed a national narrative to develop the ‘other’ in India as an existential threat

http://tribune.com.pk/story/182288/stat ... gn-policy/

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 07 Jun 2011 18:42

The difference however came between the elites of Pakistani Muslim and secular Indian elites. The kind of attire the former wore, the types of parties they threw, the servile attitude they displayed (versus the moralizing stand of many Indian leaders) and their one-track mind of obsession with India which lead to their willingness to sacrifice any principle, endeared them to the Westerners, especially the Americans.

This is so correct. The contrast was visible in Jinnah and MKG itself. Visible again in the red carpet laid out by a suave Oxford educated Bhutto to westerners in contrast to Krishna Menons' sanctimonious lectures to the UN. While the Indian elite empathized with the SDRE poor, the Paki elite wore expensive Western suits and claimed all is TFTA in the land of the pure. However the laws of nature don't cater much to show piece activity, Indians know this civilizationally and have it inbuilt amongst them, Paki's by contrast having rejected the Indic civilizational ethos became muddled. When the break time came in the 90's and the SDRE growth rates started becoming TFTA, Paki elites had no choice but to fudge figures etc. But now that also is passe. While Paki TFTA types descend to the Somalia-Afghanistan equation, Indian SDRE are clawing their way through work and ethic into 2nd world status. I am hopeful by 2020 with due apologies to Kalam ji, India may not be a developed country but atleast no one will call India a 3rd world country.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 07 Jun 2011 18:45

shiv wrote:Pakistan on the other hand was actively dishonest with itself - at least the leaders and the elite refused to see anything negative.

Even if they had seen, they could not have accepted that because then they would have had to allocate more funds for social and human-index development rather than on the military. In spite of the huge arms & ammunition aid from the Americans, they still had to spend a lot of money from their own khazana.

Shaashtanga · Post by **Shaashtanga** » 07 Jun 2011 18:55

Not sure if this has already been posted -

From Abbottabad to Worse

But our blatant manipulation by Pakistan is the most diseased and rotten thing in which the United States has ever involved itself. And it is also, in the grossest way, a violation of our sovereignty. Pakistan routinely—by the dispatch of barely deniable death squads across its borders, to such locations as the Taj Hotel in Mumbai—injures the sovereignty of India as well as Afghanistan.

Again to quote myself from 2001, if Pakistan were a person, he (and it would have to be a he) would have to be completely humorless, paranoid, insecure, eager to take offense, and suffering from self-righteousness, self-pity, and self-hatred. That last triptych of vices is intimately connected. The self-righteousness comes from the claim to represent a religion: the very name “Pakistan” is an acronym of Punjab, Afghanistan, Kashmir, and so forth, the resulting word in the Urdu language meaning “Land of the Pure.” The self-pity derives from the sad fact that the country has almost nothing else to be proud of: virtually barren of achievements and historically based on the amputation and mutilation of India in 1947 and its own self-mutilation in Bangladesh. The self-hatred is the consequence of being pathetically, permanently mendicant: an abject begging-bowl country that is nonetheless run by a super-rich and hyper-corrupt Punjabi elite. As for paranoia: This not so hypothetical Pakistani would also be a hardened anti-Semite, moaning with pleasure at the butchery of Daniel Pearl and addicted to blaming his self-inflicted woes on the all-powerful Jews.

We have been the enablers of every stage of that wretched state’s counter-evolution, to the point where it is a serious regional menace and an undisguised ally of our worst enemy, as well as the sworn enemy of some of our best allies. How could it be “worse” if we shifted our alliance and instead embraced India, our only rival in scale as a multi-ethnic and multi-religious democracy, and a nation that contains nearly as many Muslims as Pakistan? How could it be “worse” if we listened to the brave Afghans, like their former intelligence chief Amrullah Saleh, who have been telling us for years that we are fighting the war in the wrong country?

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 07 Jun 2011 19:03

It is also instructive to study in detail about the American role just before and just after we got independence. According to the Brits themselves, they were a pain in the ass on the India question. Narendra Singh Sarila's book is very forthcoming on the subject.

It does not help to look at everything through the "Christian" prism. American policies are influenced by many factors, and this is an admittedly important one among them. Have they harmed us deliberately? Yes they have (Punjab). Have they turned a blind eye? Yes they have (decades of Pakjihad). Are their continued arms supplies to Pakistan, especially when the know that these will be used only against India, cynical or worse malevolent? Yes it is (for now I will stick with cynical). But note that they are also (at least reportedly) making an effort to monitor end-use - to a degree we would never countenance where India is concerned.

The picture is not black and white, in my opinion. And America has many uses. While all the above is true, it is also true that America is doing a lot of things in Pakistan now that we wish to do, but have neither the financial nor technological wherewithal to do - at the moment. I mean guys, we have gotten used to it

On the other hand, I do not believe anyone here is suggesting disengagement from the US. It is also not useful to look at things through that perspective. What almost everybody seems to be saying is treat them with extreme caution, and clearmindedness. Who will oppose that?

We also seem to differ on tactics. Absent any real information on the internals of our relationship (and it is clear that there is far more than meets the eye), there is not much else we can do. Yet, I'm sure positions on both sides will be amended somewhat when things gradually get clearer.

It is also not always useful to see India as some whimpering, spineless weakling that is unwilling to do anything against Pakistan. Look at the trajectory that Pakistan has been on since the late 1980s. Is it all due to their stupidity? India, and our babus in the defence/foreign/home ministries - as well as many politicians, are by no means walkovers. Personally, I'm confident we will ensure through calibrated action and inaction that Pakistan changes itself from within, or it will be changed from without.

China is a different story. The great PVNR had some useful things to say on the subject in one of his final interviews IIRC.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 07 Jun 2011 19:16

Sadler wrote:
SwamyG wrote: Exactly. His comment is to incite or touch the raw nerves of Hindus; and pull in more support for his point of view via emotional tugging. My first thought was he should have said "Indians".
Not quite. I did not mean to say "Indians" and therefore did not write "Indians." An attack on a church in India with the slaughter of innocent indian christians (or the jewish equivalent) would evoke a far greater (emotive) response in the US than would the murder of an equal number of hindus. I will plead mea culpa to blunt talk. Even the LET trial in the US is because some of the victims were my fellow jews and americans. Were it not for these six (?)-odd victims, there would be no such trial in the US and news coverage of the Nov 26 carnage would disappear from US media and american conciousness without a trace.

I have no need to be self-important and therefore do not require BRF or anyone else to stroke my ego via "emotional tugging." I'd rather you accuse me of being full of $hit; i can take that. Please dont go reading between the lines where i am concerned; I have no use for subtlety. Peace.

Added later: Once the US withdraws from Afg and leaves the Porkis with the annual share of baksheesh, the re-direction of porki terrorists on to Indian soil will elicit nary a peep from the US. No matter how horrendous the terror attacks against India. It will be back to the pre-9/11 days with the US lumping India and porkistan together in a repugnant "equal-equal." Perhaps then I might get to say QED.

Some "Hindu Hawks" definitely have a soft-corner for the state of Israel and Jews. And I have seen Hindus and Jews courting and expressing solidarity with each other against their common (?) enemy - Muslims. I know exactly how American viewed Hindus in the past and continues to view currently. I wrote the piece in the blog I linked earlier to VikramS. And having followed the EJ activities for couple of years, I know the support it receives from America. And the book "Breaking India" details it out clearly. My point? I am aware of the America's support to Christianity.

No, I wouldn't accuse you of any $hit. Why should I? There is no reading between the lines. On several occasions you have expressed solidarity and sympathy with BRFites and Indians. Is it because most of us BRFites and Indians are Hindus? Or is it because India continues to witness terror sponsored by Pakistan? It is but natural for Israel and Jews to court Indian support in their fight. Neither Pakistan nor Israel has the right to exist in the current shape, size and form. Period. Christianity, Judaism and Islam has caused enough problems to the World. Leave us alone.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 07 Jun 2011 19:20

>>Neither Pakistan nor Israel has the right to exist in the current shape, size and form.

That's at least partly true on the Israeli side. If the state of Israel when it was formed had included Jordan and maybe a bit of Syria, then Pakistan would probably be less of a problem than it is today. I'm being facetious, of course.

But which state has a "right to exist" that others don't have? What confers that right? Do any of the "Muslim" states have a right to exist?

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 07 Jun 2011 19:21

SSridhar wrote:The British, for their part, also 'handed over' Pakistan to the Americans once they realized that they have become a second-rate power.

Minor quibble. The Brits may have realized they're a second rate power (PM Gujral in the late 90s called them a third-rate power but that's another tale for another day) but they have never really *accepted* it.

Consequently, the same cognitive dissonance we recognize so clearly in paki piskology becomes visible in the brit one too.

E.g., the pakis may be worse off than Indians on all HDI indicators but they still know they are better than 'em Indians. Similarly, UQ maybe a has-been on multiple geopolitical indices but hey, they are unrivaled in their masterly understanding and management of far flung assets even today. See?

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 07 Jun 2011 19:23

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2011/06 ... ?ref=world

A Pakistani government official says five NATO oil tankers burned after an explosion at the Afghan border.

Tahir Khan says the Tuesday explosion ripped through a parking area at the Torkham border crossing, where the tankers go through customs before crossing into neighboring Afghanistan.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 07 Jun 2011 19:33

JE Menon wrote:>>Neither Pakistan nor Israel has the right to exist in the current shape, size and form.

That's at least partly true on the Israeli side. If the state of Israel when it was formed had included Jordan and maybe a bit of Syria, then Pakistan would probably be less of a problem than it is today. I'm being facetious, of course.

But which state has a "right to exist" that others don't have? What confers that right? Do any of the "Muslim" states have a right to exist?

Well these two States were created by the Europeans to solve their problems. I come to your house, create or widen fissures and ask your sons to go out and live by themselves or ask for a separate portion in your house; then I have artificially manufactured a new needless entity (or State).

Sadler: When anybody, be it Pakistan sponsored terrorists or anybody, we don't look at the victims from a religious point of view. It does not matter if they were Hindus, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Sikhs, Jains or any other; they attacked India and Indians period. Our blood either boils are stays cool irrespective of who were injured or killed.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 07 Jun 2011 19:47

>>Well these two States were created by the Europeans to solve their problems.

You mean the Jewish people did not want a state of Israel to be created where it is, but the Europeans forced it on them? History does not suggest that, nor does the vigorous defence of their land by the Israelis suggest that. And remember there was a mass killing of Jews in Europe which at least gave the Israelis a rationale for their own homeland - in an area which was in fact their homeland, and where Jews have lived continuously for millennia.

Pakistan, created by a combination of manic ambition, bigotry, commercial considerations, and big power hedging, is a different animal. The Muslims had no history of persecution in India, on the contrary. Pakistan, among other things, is a state created from the guilt accumulated through centuries of massacre and killing of non-Muslims, and apprehension that that same fate would be visited on them. They feared that what they would do, would be done to them. The opposite, in fact, has proven to be true. It is only they who do what they do. The Hindus of India do not think that way, not unless the provocation is extreme.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 07 Jun 2011 19:54

Ahmadinejad says it out loud:

"America wants to vandalize Pakistani atomic installations"
احمدی نژاد: آمریکا می‌خواهد در تأسیسات اتمی پاکستان خرابکاری کند

(Translated) On the 17th of Khordaad (June 7), at a news conference in Tehran, he said: "We have precise reports that America wants to vandalize the atomic installations of Pakistan in order to dominate that country and weaken its government and nationhood, and then create grounds to further entrench itself in the region, using the Security Council and other international organizations as a lever.

archan · Post by **archan** » 07 Jun 2011 20:02

GuruPrabhu wrote: Laanat hai!

You have a response in the OT thread. http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 9#p1105839

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 07 Jun 2011 20:35

shiv wrote:
Kapil wrote:Shiv--What was the name of that textbook?

Thanks
Kapil
Preventive and Social Medicine by Park and Park

Sir was park popular with students then ?

in 3rd MBBS we found PSM to be a headache

mainly because Park was lengthy and redundant. However its a great source of health related statistics and history of planning in India. In spite of corruption and government inefficiency we have great improvement in health related statistics.

Out of curiosity may I know your specialty ? I am presently doing residency in internal medicine in US. I did my MBBS from a govt college in India. I am not being chauvinistic when I say that the healthcare offered by the private sector in India gives better results than in the US. Over reliance on investigation has led to clinical acumen has been thrown out of window .Due to the health care crisis in US medical tourism promises to be a lucrative industry for doctors in India. This has lead to many negative publicity campaigns to discourage people from going to India for healthcare. (like the so called superbug MDM-1 published in lancet ; the article reads more like a science fiction than a scientific paper). I wonder if we could discuss medical tourism as an Industry in a special thread .

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 07 Jun 2011 20:42

Beware of the robotic paki army, coming soon to a battlefield near you, evil Yindoos. Paki Robotic Army. Benis material but posting here first.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 07 Jun 2011 20:44

SwamyG wrote: Neither Pakistan nor Israel has the right to exist in the current shape, size and form. Period. Christianity, Judaism and Islam has caused enough problems to the World. Leave us alone.

Both TSP and Israel are colonial concoctions. Man, the injustice heaped on Palestinians by Israel and a "human rights" preaching west based on nothing more than mythological Biblical prophesies is one of most downplayed crimes of the 20th century.

However, one has to accept reality and real-politick. From India's PoV, no point harping on colonial injustices visa vi Israel like most argumentative Indians do (including me in the past as a naive graduate student). Its a waste of time, and only hurts India. Just have a balanaced relationship with Israel, and when interests coincide, milk the crap out of it like this Mumbai trail in Chiacgo. Sadler is right, there is not a chance in thin air that if there were no white victims or white & Jewish victims, the death of the rest of the SDRE victims of 26/11 and Paki perfidy would not even have been a foot note in western narratives on Islamic terror. At least as a result of this Chiacgo trial, TSP role laid bare, even though I will admit it will just be a dog bone to India, there is not much India will do to TSP with their man MMS in power in Delhi.

It is for this reason that it does amuse me that certain right wing Hindu hawks truly believe that in the pantheon of terror victims in western consciousness, Hindus are on the same pedestal as Jews. Its tragic to see the naievety. I even recall the sordid spectacle post 9/11 when VHP types did a dharna in front of US embassy expressing soliadrity for the victims of 9/11. In contrast, dead fish from the BP oil spill in the Gulf of mexico elicts more sympathy from an average white westerner than the SDRE victims of TSP terror.

India may be independent, but the west still colonizes the Indian mind as profusley as it did during the times of the East India company; just witness the events of the last 48 hours in Delhi.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 07 Jun 2011 20:54

harbans ji:
A minor nitpick
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_World
The concept of 1st/2nd/3rd world relates to political alignment (The West, the Commies, the NAM and everyone else). Mao had a different definition 1st = Superpowers 2nd= Poodles of #1 3rd = The Rest.

India is unlikely to become commie or a poodle, so a 2nd world country is out of the question.

===========

CRamS: About VHP's reaction & 9/11

About 8-10% of the casualties during 9/11 were from the Indic stock (included Bangladeshi). Further it was the coming out of the Islamic terrorism to the West. If an effort was to be made to do the =/= between Jehadi violence against India and the West, there was no better opportunity. So I am not sure where you are heading.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Jun 2011 20:57

gkakkad, The GDF awaits you. So start a thread there. There are many medical doctors on the forum. Not to be confused with PhDs we have that too.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 07 Jun 2011 20:59

^^^
Israel and Judaism having a bastion in ME serves a very useful purpose in the long term, for India. Judaism is much more tolerant of divergent ideas and thinking than Christianity or Islam. when Islam and EJ look at Hindus, they have contempt and disdain. this is not the case for Judaism. at least, not so in the present. historically speaking, Judaism has allowed and continues to allow much more leeway and independence in behavior and thought process of its adherents. this is in stark contrast to the other two.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 07 Jun 2011 21:04

gkakkad: There is an existing thread on Medicine in India in GDF, started five years ago but it still has not reached its 72.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... f=2&t=5375
The US medical lobby is very well funded and also faces an existentialist threat. So the knives are going to be out. Eventually medical tourism is going to be an economic necessity. Because of the distances involved from the US India is less likely to be the preferred destination. Latin America, or even cruise ships might be the easier way out. There is opportunity there for Indians in the West Indies; Europeans are more likely to travel to India hence the heartburn.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Jun 2011 21:04

devesh wrote:^^^
Israel and Judaism having a bastion in ME serves a very useful purpose in the long term, for India. Judaism is much more tolerant of divergent ideas and thinking than Christianity or Islam. when Islam and EJ look at Hindus, they have contempt and disdain. this is not the case for Judaism. at least, not so in the present. historically speaking, Judaism has allowed and continues to allow much more leeway and independence in behavior and thought process of its adherents. this is in stark contrast to the other two.

We are heading way off topic here.

UBanerjee · Post by **UBanerjee** » 07 Jun 2011 21:14

CRamS wrote:
SwamyG wrote: Neither Pakistan nor Israel has the right to exist in the current shape, size and form. Period. Christianity, Judaism and Islam has caused enough problems to the World. Leave us alone.

Both TSP and Israel are colonial concoctions. Man, the injustice heaped on Palestinians by Israel and a "human rights" preaching west based on nothing more than mythological Biblical prophesies is one of most downplayed crimes of the 20th century.

Call it what you like, but don't call it downplayed. Something like half of the UN human rights nonsense is focused on Israel thanks to constant, continuing

by surrounding Arab states and European enablers. If you think Israel is committing even 1% of human rights violations in the world, let alone 50%, I have a bridge to sell you

When Israel lifts a finger, there are 1000 people ready to cry, scream, and make shrill pronouncements- whereas vast swathes of the world, from Arab states to Tibet, suddenly these worthies are silent.

You know what IS one of the most down-played crimes in the world? The mass expulsion and eradication of Jewish populations in Arab states while Israel was being founded. I bet most people here haven't even heard of this- in fact more Jews were expelled than Palestinians. Yet the latter, I'm sure everyone here is intimately familiar with every minute grievance. The sheer amount of noise about this one tiny square of the world is staggering- the rest of the world must be a utopia! Look how downplayed it is!

These noise-makers about Palestine btw are quite happy to make noise about India's "Kashmir crimes" as well. Frankly this is complete snake-oil you are selling here.

arun · Post by **arun** » 07 Jun 2011 21:21

X Posted from the Pakistani Role in Global Terrorism thread.

Afghan Security Adviser, Rangin Dafdar Spanta, on the role of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan in fomenting Islamic Terrorist violence in Afghanistan:

06/07/2011
Interview with Top Afghan Security Adviser
'The Stream of New Insurgents Is Almost Endless'

As the security situation worsens in Afghanistan, German soldiers are coming under increasing attack. In a SPIEGEL ONLINE interview, senior Afghan security adviser Rangin Dadfar Spanta discusses the roots of terror, Pakistan's role in the violence and whether Germany should keep its forces in the country. ………………………………

SPIEGEL ONLINE: There have recently been three deadly attacks on German soldiers and on General Daud Daud, the police chief of northern Afghanistan. Why has the situation there gotten worse?

Spanta: A network of the Taliban, al-Qaida and their Pakistani supporters are behind this. They are pursuing a new tactic after having been forced to give up a number of areas last winter. They're trying to hit senior figures.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: American special forces have taken out a number of Taliban leaders in the north. Who are the new attackers?

Spanta: Even if European countries refuse to acknowledge it, the resistance is now being orchestrated by terrorist centers in Pakistan, the Quetta Shura (editor's note: the innermost circle of Taliban leaders), the Haqqani network, the group of (Gulbaddin) Hekmatyar and Ayman al-Zawahiri, the No. 2 in the al-Qaida leadership. There are 40,000 madrassas -- or religious schools -- in Pakistan, and even if only a small fraction of them support the terrorists, the stream of new fighters is almost endless. There will only be peace in this region when this source has been dried up.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Can negotiations with the Taliban solve the problem?

Spanta: They could be helpful if Pakistan were willing to support the peace process. But that's not the case. Pakistan has a different strategy: The West is obviously weary and will soon withdraw. Then, in one or two years, Pakistan can finally move into Afghanistan and use it as a strategic area. That's what this is all about.

Rangin Dafdar Spanta is clear that Osama Bin Laden was provided with top level Institutional State Support during his sojourn in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan:

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Did Pakistani leaders know that Osama bin Laden was hiding out in Abbottabad?

Spanta: I am convinced that top-level officials had been informed. Without institutional, state support, Osama bin Laden wouldn't have been able to hide in Pakistan for so long. A few years back, our intelligence chief gave General Pervez Musharraf, Pakistan's president at the time, exact coordinates on where Osama bin Laden was staying. But Musharraf only ridiculed him. But now it has emerged that the information was only a few miles off from the place where bin Laden was actually found.

Read it all:

Der Spiegel