Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 2011

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Jun 2011 21:22

Please take Israel related discussions to the Israel thread. And geopolitical items to the respective thread.
Thanks, ramana

saadhak · Post by **saadhak** » 07 Jun 2011 21:23

X-posting from 'Surviving a 50 to 100 nuke bomb attack on India'

If India and Pakistan come to nuclear blows, blame the US

Can't help but agree with this statement:

Any Idiot's "Guide to South Asia" will tell you that peace in the region will remain a distant dream until India and Pakistan reach a solution acceptable to Kashmiri Muslims as well as nationalists in both countries.

Yup, that is what the idiots will guide you to do to bring peace to 'South Asia'.

The farticle can be given a miss. Apart from peddling Whole-crooke's POV, this has quotes like the below:

This will initially require, at the very least, India to shift troops out of the Kashmir Valley.

Unfortunately, India's new image in Europe and America as a rising power has diminished the Indian appetite for compromise and negotiation.

ranjbe · Post by **ranjbe** » 07 Jun 2011 21:23

"Neither Pakistan nor Israel has the right to exist in the current shape, size and form. Period. ."

Absolutely true if taken in isolation. However, this is going down a slippery slope. As an example, almost every Mid-East State (Jordan, Iraq, Turkey, Palestine territory et al) were colonial creations, carved out of the Ottoman Empire after World War I. So are many of the countries in Africa which were colonial territories ruled by England, France, Begium, Portugal and Italy with no distinct identity before colonialism. It is only in Asia that has cultures which span many millenium, where we find states which existed in a similar form before colonialism - Japan, China, Vietnam. Thailand, Cambodia and India, to name a few.

Nandu · Post by **Nandu** » 07 Jun 2011 21:27

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Jun 2011 21:28

rajanb and Nandu, Please see my request above. Usually when some one posts after admins request it invites warnings etc.
ramana

Nandu · Post by **Nandu** » 07 Jun 2011 21:31

If any fellow Bay Areans did not catch Anatole Lieven's talk at the Northern California World Affairs Council that was broadcast yesterday on KQED, congratulations! It was puke-worthy.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Jun 2011 21:34

Nandu, I get enough of his bilge from his writings and on CSPAN. Didnt know you were in Bay Area. Would have invited you to some meets.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 07 Jun 2011 21:39

The sheer amount of noise about this one tiny square of the world is staggering- the rest of the world must be a utopia! Look how downplayed it is!

Absolutely right. However as this is diverging will relate this to TSP..It's sort of wrong to compare Israel and TSP. Israel and Jews specifically have civilizational history in the regions spanning millenia before Islam came into being. TSP was a gangetic plain creation. Even folks in NWFP did'nt vote ML. TSP is a completely artificial construction of an idea with no civilizational history behind. Max TSP can 'eulogize' the marauders that Islamic invasions threw in at India. Thats what they name their nuke missiles by. Emulating these kind of heroes is civilizational doom. TSP is facing the hellish throes of that. Israel is tiny by comparison. Israel has nothing, no oil, water no resources. Yet it has the best possible resource that of hard working, intelligent people. They have created wealth from just that. To compare Israel with TSP is plain wrong.

Added later: Hope this is not OT..wanted to relate this to TSP since it surfaced.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 07 Jun 2011 21:53

Quote:
If India and Pakistan come to nuclear blows, blame the US

I was just thinking that this thinking could only come from a WKK. It was Pankaj Misra. I remember rhetoric in the heady days in 98 when India had tested. It went like India and Pakistan will never come to blows, both are mature, MAD, detente all terms thrown about without basic analysis. My arguments with a lot of people were very frustrating. They were dismissive of chances of war and i argued this gives Pak a great chance to play the brinkmanship game. Kargil proved me right. But i found this view was very common even in the BJP camp. Indians were innately assuming Porki's will play rationally. These people did not understand Paki psyche. Many of them went on to become WKKs. WKK's did'nt come from the left background, they came/ arise from a feudal mentality. The upper middle class in India in the 90's were full of cocktail party strategic experts that thought in this manner. The Whisky swiveling PA General concept was reinforced in ads and in these circuits. The same class now in their 40s-early 50's realizes it was wrong in the debates to liberalization and Paki nukes. The only way they now rationalize to themselves is to put the blame elsewhere. The US. PM is a symptom of the malaise. Let him puke away, the torrent of truth are now too exposed to be brushed away.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 07 Jun 2011 21:56

@Sridhar ^^^: Note Anita Joshua calls the militants/miscreants 'terrorists'. I wonder what the Chindu wrote about Mumbai..."misguided youths"...?

@Theo_Fidel ^^^: "What we are doing in part is unfortunately paying a price for that neutrality." We were not 'neutral'. We used NAM and the UN to bash the US every chance we got even as were pleading for PL-480 wheat and stuff. The final straw was the FSU invasion of Afghanistan when IG had to refrain from criticism ostensibly because of the 'Treaty of Friendship' signed in 1971 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Sovie ... ooperation

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 07 Jun 2011 21:58

Last interview with SSS. Interesting details: http://www.longwarjournal.org/videos/20 ... syed_s.php

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 07 Jun 2011 22:06

The final straw was the FSU invasion of Afghanistan when IG had to refrain from criticism ostensibly because of the 'Treaty of Friendship' signed in 1971 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Sovie ... ooperation

The PM at the time of the invasion was Charan Singh. And he called the Soviet Ambassador and it seems gave a dressing down.

arun · Post by **arun** » 07 Jun 2011 22:18

X Posted from the Oppression of Minorities in Pakistan thread.

In the Land of the Pure, Mohammaddens need have absolutely no fear that murdering Dhimmi’s has any consequences.

The Courts of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan predictably acquit all 70 Mohammadden suspects in the torching of a Christian ghetto at Gojra which resulted in the deaths of 8 Christian’s :

70 suspects in Gojra incident acquitted

jaibhim · Post by **jaibhim** » 07 Jun 2011 22:18

Evil India---I had also posted in the naxal menace thread of recent discussions amongst Arundhati's comrades in arms in the Kafila.org, yesterrday and this played out in a manner predicted here of how crushing the voice of democratic dissent in cashemere is going to be heated up. Please have a look if interested and the other for perusal--
Source the Nation, June the 7th 2011.
Water terrorism
India is rapidly moving towards its target of making Pakistan totally barren by building dams on three major rivers including Chenab, Jhelum and Indus flowing into Pakistan from the Indian side of the border. These dams are being built in blatant violation of international laws and Indus Water Treaty singed between the two countries to ensure equitable distribution of water resources. Pakistan has, long been challenging these moves of the Indian authorities and the issue had been referred to international arbitration on various occasions. Both Islamabad and New Delhi have held several rounds of talks to resolve the matter but no tangible results could be achieved. Realising the nefarious designs of the Indian leadership, political parties in Pakistan term New Delhi actions as ‘water terrorism’. Recent talks on Baglihar Dam between the two sides remained unfruitful and Pakistan is understood to have decided to seek international arbitration once again to secure its share of the water.
Yesterday, a report published in all national newspapers has raised alarm bell when an Indian engineer, Jee Parbharkar, speaking at a seminar organised by The Federation of Association of South and Central Asian Countries (FIESCA) in Nepal, said if all on-going dam projects on rivers originating from Kashmir were completed in time, India would be in a position to stop water flow to Pakistan completely by 2020. He further claimed that by 2020, India would be producing such a quantity of hydel power that it would be able to export it to neighbouring countries including Pakistan. Pakistani delegate to the seminar, Sultan Mahmood said that India has already started producing electricity from four big and 16 small dams while the work on third dam is in full swing near Kargal Valley. In this dam, 45 per cent of Indus water would be diverted to its reservoir through a tunnel.
Such a situation is not acceptable under any circumstances and it is about time that our leadership takes the matter seriously and move all international forums available to raise this sensitive issue. Indifference of concerned authorities had already damaged Pakistan’s cause and if nothing is done fast, Pakistan soon would be a barren state.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 07 Jun 2011 22:21

harbans wrote:The final straw was the FSU invasion of Afghanistan when IG had to refrain from criticism ostensibly because of the 'Treaty of Friendship' signed in 1971 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Sovie ... ooperation

The PM at the time of the invasion was Charan Singh. And he called the Soviet Ambassador and it seems gave a dressing down.

I was referring to this:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... -9,00.html

Toward the bottom of the page.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 07 Jun 2011 22:36

As the Borg said "Give peace a f*ckng chance,Destroy Packistan!!"

arun · Post by **arun** » 07 Jun 2011 22:40

X Posted from the ISI History and Discussions thread.

More indications that the torture and murder of journalist Syed Saleem Shahzad was an act of extra-judicial murder by State Actors of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

Syed Saleem Shahzad’s cell phone records starting from 18 days prior to his abduction erased:

Saleem Shahzad’s cell phone record erased

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 07 Jun 2011 22:43

lo kar lo baat

Pakistan allegedly helped bin Laden to gain U.S. aid

WASHINGTON - Pakistan learned a hard lesson after the Soviet-Afghan war ended in 1989 and the U.S. abruptly terminated its covert support for the Afghan rebels: A large portion of that support was provided through and with the help of Pakistan

I am sure many in state department will love this argument.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 07 Jun 2011 22:48

Johann wrote: Shiv,

Why the binary thinking? You can be huge, active on the global level, and blinkered at the same time, filtering out everything that doesn't match what you're looking for.

The larger point was that America's blinkers were never just about Pakistan or India. They were world-sized.

This is a load of Nandi-droppings. You are attributing something to ignorance which should be attributed in equal parts to malice, perfidy and being deliberately calculative. US is not blinkered, US is simply calculative and has a history of making other people do its dirty work so they dont need to work their musharraf off and/or others suffer the blowback. There are many cases in point:

Take the whole Abbottabad thing. Why did we get here in the first place?

Because the US thought OBL could be gotten for cheap in tora bora. They relied on chappal clad, AK-phyrr in air, RPG-phyrr in air mujahids who probably took a wad of cash, a roll of herbs and let OBL go. After 3000 were killed and the twin towers fell, is this the diligence one shows for catching enemy no 1? US did it. Why? They didnt want the blowback of revenge attacks.

The same thing can be said about American foreign policy to this day. For all your (implicit praise) of Bush "who woke up" -- what did GWB do? Prop up mush, give boatload of money to the Pakistan army, rely on ISI to catch the yahoos. And what do you have here? A resurgent taliban which has fought the world's sole superpower to a standstill. Make no mistake -- the moment US leaves Afghanistan, the entire country is going to go to the dogs, bringing the place to exactly where it was a decade before 9/11. So many trillions in cash, many wounded and dead and what do we have? Same difference.

This whole Afghanistan thing. Why did we get here in the first place?

Because Bush didnt bomb everyone in Kunduz, force the Pakis to purge the ISI and the army, bought the whole "Good taliban//bad taliban" BS (they still do), relied on Mush to win the Afghan war for him (who by the way was busy making alliances with religious parties, signing peace treaties with the taliban). All of them a series of calculations (of getting the objectives done for cheap) and perfidy (pontificating about "war on terror" while letting Pakis suffer the blowback and making distinction between groups which attack the US and attack everyone else) and look at where it has brought the region.

You make it appear as though US is this misled do-gooder who simply didnt realize the threat of Salafist terror in India. I call BS. US saw Salafist terror in India, saw if US troops were stationed in India or those fellows had any chance of attacking US mainland. Convinced that it wasnt happening the next day, rolled over and went to sleep -- letting the Indians handle it and face the consequences. If this happens again after US exit from Afghanistan, US will do it again. They will make a few grandiose statements about nuclear threat reduction, using their good offices to solve Cashmere call for restraint on both sides and give a boatload of money to the Pakis so "strategic stability" is maintained......While the next OBL plots to attack the US and gets money wired to him by an ISI officer.

Being blinkered is not the same as doing a cost-benefit analysis of shutting one's eyes.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Jun 2011 23:21

Dont forget Mushy's advice to US to not fight the Taliban in Southern Afghanistan.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 07 Jun 2011 23:34

Whats happening now is just a re-run of 2001 to a certain extent. Taleban was about to be recognised by the US.

Paki's were helping talebs go nuclear and all sorts.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 07 Jun 2011 23:34

Cosmo,

I said relative neutrality. We even kept the Soviets at a certain arms length. We were even hesitant to let Soviet ships dock long term. All deals were done on strictly monetary terms, even if occasionally concessional. When the CCCP collapsed we were able to walk away relatively unscathed.

Nothing to compare to taller than mountains TSP/Panda butt buddies even.

TSP by contrast went whole hog. Even letting out bases, troops, signing all manner of treaties, billions in aid, etc.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 07 Jun 2011 23:38

What still boggles my mind is that if a Brigade of America's best were in tora bora: this whole sooper dooper stealth radar evading silent helicopter with TFTA SEALS with Chinook backup preceded by CIA satellite/drone/safehouse surveillance with "commander-in-chief" making a courageous personal call weighing the pros and cons, to go in nab OBL, violate Pakistan's sovirginity, mollify them a whole 10 years after twin towers ..... need not have happened.

I am convinced that Unkil is neither good nor evil. Every morning he calculates the cost-benefit analysis for that day. How much money & manpower he wants to spend and how much he is likely to get. Sometimes it benefits others, sometimes it does not. Sometimes it ends up harming unkil himself in the long run. Most often than not, it leaves a trail of generations long devastation -- Korea, Cambodia, Vietnam and now Afghanistan and Iraq.

I treat "We have woken up now!! And are spreading democracy and biratherhood in the whole wide world and eradicate evil of terrorism" with contempt, there is no evidence to support this hyperbole.

UBanerjee · Post by **UBanerjee** » 07 Jun 2011 23:45

For the American mindset, South Asia provided an inlet into the "soft underbelly" of the expanding SU. They were happy to find a rentier here in Pakistan. US since the meeting with ibn Saud planned to use Islam as a long-term weapon against the SU because SU had conquered the Khanates and the attendant Islamic populations. This use of Islam was also of course to secure hydrocarbons. Thus Pakistan was a fine option.

However they were not averse to having India be their munna. After China fell to Mao US was in full-crisis mode and was ready to take anyone if they would be munna against communism. This was a time when communism was a very real existential threat to Eurasia which would destroy the basis of US prosperity and shut it out of the heartland. India was also a potentially massive market which could substitute for what US was hoping for in China. But India wisely chose to be a strategic swing state- with the not-so-wise policy of trying to replicate that in the economic sphere ("best of both worlds").

UBanerjee · Post by **UBanerjee** » 07 Jun 2011 23:53

Anujan wrote: I am convinced that Unkil is neither good nor evil. Every morning he calculates the cost-benefit analysis for that day. How much money & manpower he wants to spend and how much he is likely to get. Sometimes it benefits others, sometimes it does not. Sometimes it ends up harming unkil himself in the long run. Most often than not, it leaves a trail of generations long devastation -- Korea, Cambodia, Vietnam and now Afghanistan and Iraq.

But you see how your own examples contradict your point. The blood and treasure squandered in these regions was for what cost-benefit?

In truth, Uncle's strategic aims are heavily informed by ideology. That is the only reason they were willing to expend a generation of young fellows and the fruits of their economy slugging it out in Vietnam for 15 years. It is this ideology which drives their successes (and I would include Korea in there, compared to the alternative) as well as their massive failures. Even so with Iraq- can anyone argue with a straight face that the Iraqi occupation has been even close to a net positive for the US. Iraq was ideologically driven hubris.

Of course mercantile considerations also weigh heavily on this. It isn't purely one way or the other. Relationship with Sunni Islam is the best example of this.

If we want an example of almost pure mercantile cost-benefit driven strategy, we can look to modern China.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 07 Jun 2011 23:59

UBanerjee wrote: But you see how your own examples contradict your point. The blood and treasure squandered in these regions was for what cost-benefit?

In truth, Uncle's strategic aims are heavily informed by ideology. That is the only reason they were willing to expend a generation of young fellows and the fruits of their economy slugging it out in Vietnam for 15 years.

You didnt carefully read what I said. I said: Unkil calculates cost benefit *for that day*. This is precisely the reason why he spends so much blood and treasure in the *long run*. Take Eye-raak for example.

Few boots on the ground? Check.
Can win war without coalition so didnt try to form a coalition? Check.
Awesome firepower beats sanctioned army in under 2 weeks? Check.
Mission Accomplished talk on aircraft carrier? Check.

......followed by 7 years of hemorrhaging men and money.

Why? Because on March 20, 2003 the war could be won under 14 days for cheap. The deal looked good.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Jun 2011 00:05

May I gently remind folks this is the TSP news and discussion thread. We have many threads for other interesting topics.

ramana

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 08 Jun 2011 00:12

X Posted in US-India thread.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Jun 2011 00:46

Can we do that in the right thread?

This is my third request to stick to the topic of the thread ie TSP news & discussions.

I will have to issue warnings to posters who continue to do this.

Dont later whine/bleat that I was harsh.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 08 Jun 2011 00:48

I wish we discuss more on KLN Murthy's post that A_Kumar bumped up. There is really nobody pushing any credible (relative term that differs with people) alternative with Unkil's policy makers on what to with Pakistan. RD mentioned that amongst only a few matter when it comes to policy and none of them are even leaning to anything different than what they have tried (and failed) in the past.

So, despite OBL - I am afraid it is going to be same same. It is for India to break out of this and not depend on anybody else and treat everybody as hostile in this subject.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Jun 2011 01:04

Gus, Managing TSP thread has a new op-ed by D.Suba Chandran which seeks to break the paradigm. He wants India to ennunciate a policy and act on it and not this wishy washy dossier service.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 08 Jun 2011 01:54

Probe into Nowshera suicide bombing launched

The sources said that officials of the intelligence agencies visited the spot and the entire area remained cordoned off during the day. Media personnel were not allowed to visit the site.
...
Despite being located in the high security zone, the bomber managed to enter the bakery to carry out the suicide attack.
...
The dead included Havildar Sajjad Hussain, Subedar Mohammad Aslam, Naveed, ASC Khadim Hussain, Sunya wife of Major Tahir Ibrar, his daughter Khadija, son Mohammad Ali and niece Bushra.
...
It was learnt that the close-circuit cameras installed at the bakery were out of order because of which there was no footage of the incident.

Earlier report said that two Americans from the site were arrested and both had received bruises in the incident. Also fire brigade reached without water.

Was this a Terrorist attack or a insider job ?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Jun 2011 01:56

What kind of bakery is this that has CCTV? Cant be baking naans. Is it another German bakery?

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 08 Jun 2011 01:58

^

The Army-run bakery, popularly known as Salwa Bakery, is located in the high security zone near sensitive military installations in the Nowshera Cantonment.

Sources said a huge blaze erupted after the explosion that reduced several shops to ashes besides gutting the bakery.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 08 Jun 2011 02:00

Also fire brigade reached without water.

Whyphor being so naive sirji? In Bakistan the duty of the fire brigade is to set fires so that bigger claims for compensation can be sent to company bahadur.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 08 Jun 2011 02:04

ramana wrote:What kind of bakery is this that has CCTV? Cant be baking naans. Is it another German bakery?

CCTV is for recognising RAA and CeeEyeYEah Agents. It is likely that the Bakery caters to the taste of the likes of Zawahiri and IK. If RAA agints are seen on CCTV attempting to buy Kesari Bhaat alarm bells will go off and Zawahiri and IK will be moved to safer locations.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 08 Jun 2011 02:18

Theo_Fidel wrote:Cosmo,

I said relative neutrality. We even kept the Soviets at a certain arms length. We were even hesitant to let Soviet ships dock long term. All deals were done on strictly monetary terms, even if occasionally concessional. When the CCCP collapsed we were able to walk away relatively unscathed.

Nothing to compare to taller than mountains TSP/Panda butt buddies even.

TSP by contrast went whole hog. Even letting out bases, troops, signing all manner of treaties, billions in aid, etc.

I am not seeking to be contrary but what you may see as history, I saw as news. We were in FSU's thrall. We never criticized the Chinese or the USSR in NAM, and agreed to scuttle the original M2K assembly in India becuase the USSR pushed the MiG 29. BTW, it was done at friendship prices and in Rupees. As a result, India had/has a large Rupee debt (I don't know what it is now) to the Russians.

Anyhow, the point is not what you and I think, but what the cumulative and collective perception was in the US. Granted US foreign policy has always been two dimensional pro-something and anti something. During the cold war, it was anti-communist and pro-Israel. During this period we (India) fell consistently on the other side.

Give you an example: I watched the post June 6, 1967 six day war debate in the UN. India was more vehemently anti Israel and pro-Arab than even Jamil Al Baroody, the Saudi Rep to the UN.

That episode alone cost India a lot of political capital in the US. The NYT and the Jewish lobby went nuts. All India had to do was stay out of sight. But, for some inexplicable reason, the Indian Rep went full frontal on Israel. It took a long time to repair that rift.

I am merely seeking to add a little 'color' to the history that otherwise in compressed form, loses many of the real pivot points.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 08 Jun 2011 02:19

http://www.dawn.com/2011/06/07/gilani-f ... ivity.html

Bakistan wants FTA with Amrika company bahadur

Prime Minister Gilani said US presence in Pakistan should be seen as a source of peace and prosperity by the people of Pakistan,

Wajir-e Alms-am playing with words while asking for alms

He pointed out that the people of Pakistan were expecting a thorough investigation of the Raymond Davis case in the US under its laws.

why is the nutter keeping the issue alive? surely the Pakistanis are more worried about how the Americans found out about the safe house in Abbotabad

The provision of civil nuclear technology, reimbursement of large amounts of with-held Coalition Support Fund to Pakistan and utilisation of the Kerry-Lugar Bill funds for signature project

more

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 08 Jun 2011 02:26

http://www.dawn.com/2011/06/07/pakistan ... ation.html

Pakistan sarkar signs unislamic deal with Cheena birather.

Pakistan has assured China of providing full intelligence cooperation on the activities of the East Turkestan Islamic Movement (ETIM), DawnNews reported.

The ETIM is said to be working for the separation of Xinjiang from China by means of violence and terror. (very packi way of going about things, where is the problem?)

Among the stated goals of the ETIM is the conversion of all Chinese people to Islam.

The Pakistan government is engaging in serious blasphemy by back-stabbing an organisation that is following the HoKo by trying too convert all Chinese people to Islam.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 08 Jun 2011 02:26

Mahendra wrote:
ramana wrote:What kind of bakery is this that has CCTV? Cant be baking naans. Is it another German bakery?
CCTV is for recognising RAA and CeeEyeYEah Agents. It is likely that the Bakery caters to the taste of the likes of Zawahiri and IK. If RAA agints are seen on CCTV attempting to buy Kesari Bhaat alarm bells will go off and Zawahiri and IK will be moved to safer locations.

Actually, it was for tracking the upper crust who as you know are bunch of crumbs held together by dough.