The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 09 Jun 2011 15:03

harbans-ji that information is trivialy easily available a google hit away, why dont you take the lead?

Sanku Ji, you prove that point i made. After 29 pages of discussion, we are still a google click away from what specifics BR has been demanding? Ironic no?

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 09 Jun 2011 15:07

harbans wrote:harbans-ji that information is trivialy easily available a google hit away, why dont you take the lead?

Sanku Ji, you prove that point i made. After 29 pages of discussion, we are still a google click away from what specifics BR has been demanding? Ironic no?

Why so lazy, guys? or was it intentional?

http://bharat-swabhiman.com/en/baba-ram ... atyagraha/

The demands are arranged in order of priority..

1. Declare accounts of Indians in tax havens as national property - GOI must declare all tax haven accounts of Indian corrupts to be national property through an ordinance and later with enactment of a bill. This is a very easy step to execute and does not conflict with any foreign policy, treaty or agreement.

2. Declare stashing away black money in tax havens as national crime - GOI must declare the act of stashing away of black money in swiss banks as a ‘Rajdroh’ or national crime because it has led to disasters in our country. 883 people die every HOUR just because of malnutrition and hunger whereas corrupt people out there are carrying out scams worth lakhs of crores which could be used for the development of our nation. Such big scams are only because stashing away of money in swiss banks is very easy for the corrupt.

3. Death penalty and lifetime imprisonment for the corrupt - GOI must pass a law to enforce death penalty or lifetime imprisonment on people who are found to be guilty of corrupt practices. The only reason that corruption is so widespread today is that there is no punishment for the corrupt and they enjoy luxurious freedom inspite of putting the nation at stake.

4. Enactment of a strong Lokpal - The government must now enact a strong Lokpal which can control corruption in the country. Corruption is now a cancer for us and Lokpal is a great weapon against it. India Against Corruption is heading this movement and we give full support to them.

5. Setting up of fast track courts in all states to deal specially with corruption issues - The government needs to setup fast track courts in all the states so that punishing the corrupt becomes easy. Crores of cases are pending in courts at the moment which would take years to clear up. We need faster execution and stronger laws to deal with this cancer.

6. Removal of high denomination currency notes from the economy – Government should immediately recall high denomination notes from the economy to prevent internal black money formation. Today we have 100 lakh crores of black money circulating inside our economy and thats because Rs. 1000, Rs.500 notes make it easier for corrupt people to transport, carry and store large sums of money for purpost of illegal and corrupt dealings. These notes should be removed immediately. There is no use of these notes when 80 crore+ people in our country live on a daily income of Rs.20 and never get the luxury of even seeing a Rs.500 note.

7. Educational curriculum in Bharatiya Languages - Curriculum and examinations of engineering, medical, agriculture should be made available in Bharatiye languages too and as fast as possible so that even a villager can get education properly instead of being deprived on the name of a foreign language(English) which we are using as the primary mode of education even after 64 years of independence. What a shame! We are not against english. But we must learn to respect our own languages first.

8. Ban the Land Acquisition Act - This act was brought by the Britishers to loot us and what a shame that we still have this law and its also being used to loot the poor farmers till date who are the people providing and catering to the hunger needs of our nation. This agricultural loot needs to be stopped NOW!

9. Direct election of the Prime Minister - History has shown that indirect selection of Prime Ministers has only lead to political troubles because most of the time the PM is busy safeguarding his chair putting national interest at stake. Political instability and personal conflicts in parties lead to instability in the governance just because of this reason. So the PM should be directly elected by the people and should be directly accountable to the citizens of this country.

10. Enactment of a strong Public Service Delivery Guarantee Act - If any citizen is denied service by any govt official within a stipulated period of time then the concerned official will have to pay penalty in the form of money to the particular citizen on a daily/weekly basis. This will help to make execution of government offices faster and prevent laziness and bribery

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 09 Jun 2011 15:11

harbans wrote:There's no point in being dismissive of a POV specifically if thre's a way to objectively answer that. Somnath Ji is asking a simple question:

You are making a statement based on your own opinion.Do you know whether I am being dismissive or simply trying to point an agenda against RD and if you knew it was so near why the nonsensical Bhashan.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 09 Jun 2011 15:11

somnath,

i'm a common man, and this issue is important to me for whatever reason. but i do not understand complexities of economics, structure,framework and law. but i'm smart enough to perceive if anything useful and meaningful is being done. i'm smart enough to perceive if enough information is being exchanged and enough steps are being taken to satisfy those who can understand these things.

so far i have not seen any of that. there has not been any effort to educate me either. nuances of tax reforms in understandable terms are not discussed in prime time tv. what i see is hack jobs like 'are fasts farce?'.

so i sense that govt and the elite are obfuscating. i protest. your argument is you donot understand nuances, i do, so you shut up until i tell you otherwise.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 09 Jun 2011 15:15

shaardula wrote: your argument is you donot understand nuances, i do, so you shut up until i tell you otherwise.

OT but this is the similar tactic TEPCO and other Nuclear companies regularly used to deflect attention. In short this is a standard rhetorical tactic when you dont want real stuff done.

Atri wrote:Why so lazy, guys? or was it intentional?

What do you think Atri-ji?

BTW the list was posted before too.

Narad · Post by **Narad** » 09 Jun 2011 15:16

On the whole militia thing, I think Baba Ramdev just got a little bit carried away while recounting that tragic night when sleeping people were barbarically beaten and evacuated.

IIRC he made it clear that in case such a group is constituted that will be for solely peaceful volunteering or self defence. In his words, "Shaastra aur Shastra dono ki shiksha denge".

Shikhska = education/familiarisation with volunteering techniques amid sudden aggression.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 09 Jun 2011 15:18

Narad wrote:On the whole militia thing, I think Baba Ramdev just got a little bit carried away while recounting that tragic night when sleeping people were barbarically beaten and evacuated.

You can hear exactly what he had in mind....

http://www.timesnow.tv/videoshow/4375459.cms

Clearly next time a Dharana is needed, and police atrocity unleashed, he wants a convinincing answer to "there were women and children there, Ramdev should not have brought them"

Next time the people taking the danda's would be volunteers who would know

1) That they are ready for it
2) That their spines wont break like 52 year old women whose backs were broken by the police.

Its quite simple.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 09 Jun 2011 15:19

somnath wrote:^^^Have you followed the LGT story? An ex-employee called Keiber entered into an agreement with the German tax authorities to reveal megabytes of client data..this was 2007 (or thereabouts)..The German govt offered to share the database with India under certain conditions...at that time, it was said that Indians accounted for billions of dollars in that list...When the list was finally revealed, first by Tehelka and then everywhere else, the number came to 40 crores from 18 people...

Where did I say that LGT is the only tax haven harbouring black money? I was only providing a perspective between rhetorical claims and real data..

Yes, I am aware of the GFI estimate - which is why I had posted Surjit Bhalla's take on the GFI data (which in turn is one third the number bandied around by BR) - again SB's own estimates are far lower...Now dont tell me that SB is a congress chamcha as well..

This isnt to minimise the issue of black money, only to show that it isnt nearly enough to flail aimlessly, and throw around some random numbers...If the issue is to be dealt with seriously, then it needs to be understood seriously as well...Sloganeering is poor substitute for analysis, whether for lobbying or for policy making...

Thank you for walking right into it.

http://capitalmind.in/2011/02/surjit-bh ... 0091-lakh/

Mr. Bhalla says black money = money which is taxable but is not declared.
Mr. Bhalla says that we pay, on average, 10% of our income as tax
Mr. Bhalla says we are short income tax collection by about 100,000 crores.
But Mr. Bhalla does NOT conclude that our income, to have paid that much extra in taxes, is 10,00,000 crores higher.

And to top that, is was just 2009 that he used.
And to top to top that there are avenues to convert black to white. Mauritius.

POint is mate, I think no matter what spin you put to it , a demented mind wouldn't believe what you say. Everyone knows this. And this is BR's main issue - corruption and black money. Try as you might but slander/obfuscation/personal attacks is not working. That must have been quite evident from the responses. And if someone does not chage tact based on responses..something is wrong. ( unless you are one of this sick souls who revel in this )

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 09 Jun 2011 15:23

You are making a statement based on your own opinion.Do you know whether I am being dismissive or simply trying to point an agenda against RD and if you knew it was so near why the nonsensical Bhashan.

Manish Ji, firstly i did'nt address you specifically. Secondly you have no idea of my opinion on the matter. Thirdly if you want your POV to be taken more seriously, a bit of respect and politeness for the other poster is not too much to ask. Remember if RD is making demands that can be fulfilled only through political decisions, he is then not beyond critical analysis. Don't confuse critical analysis with having a POV. If someone is positing objective questions, they do merit some objectivity in return not dismissiveness and questioning agenda etc. Then the discussion really goes no where.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 09 Jun 2011 15:37

harbans wrote:You are making a statement based on your own opinion.Do you know whether I am being dismissive or simply trying to point an agenda against RD and if you knew it was so near why the nonsensical Bhashan.

Manish Ji, firstly i did'nt address you specifically. Secondly you have no idea of my opinion on the matter. Thirdly if you want your POV to be taken more seriously, a bit of respect and politeness for the other poster is not too much to ask. Remember if RD is making demands that can be fulfilled only through political decisions, he is then not beyond critical analysis. Don't confuse critical analysis with having a POV. If someone is positing objective questions, they do merit some objectivity in return not dismissiveness and questioning agenda etc. Then the discussion really goes no where.

If he really needed an answer he has got that previously, wait for some time and he will hijack the thread again.As regards your opinion you already wrote what you wrote whether specifically or not.If you want to give respect kindly do the needful nobody is stopping you and please stop this unasked for advice which is something u are again doing.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 09 Jun 2011 15:39

Sanku wrote:
Atri wrote:Why so lazy, guys? or was it intentional?
What do you think Atri-ji? BTW the list was posted before too.

I understand, Sanku ji.. But, this is usual tactic of babus hell bent on opposing a file.. All one has to do is generate multiple copies of the demand list on every counter to every clerk and peons (even if they are elite iskool tutored).. The issue dies if fist fight begins.. Why play the game on the terms of the pig, that too in mud?

The mute reader must have the access to the demand list with ease.. he should find it everywhere. only then he shall make judgement and set the ball in motion..

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 09 Jun 2011 17:01

Nesoj wrote:
IndraD wrote:A separate Q to gurus what if BR's health deteriorates under fast , what will govt do?
Ever heard of 'Irom Sharmila' ????? 11 years ...
http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-ne ... ngest-fast
the 'baba' should be good for a couple of decades

But then she (or those supporting her) neither claim ownership on the 'patriotism patent' nor walk about wearing saffron, ..... so it must be ok for her to be treated like this for over a decade and nary a beep from anyone from the rest of India

What is the comparison between Irom Sharmila and BRD here? Why are you bringing in straw-man arguments here? Just because the media - and that too congress mouthpieces for all practical purposes - does not cover her state, does this mean that something is wrong with what BRD is doing?

And Irom Sharmila fasting for for repeal of AFSPA in her state and NE? And how is that similar to someone protesting for strengthening of the country? Why should I 'cry' for her? And the scum-bags batting for her are known baiters of security forces. Sorry, no can do.

Now coming to Saffron - what is wrong with wearing saffron colored clothes? I am a Hindu and that color is synonymous with my religion. And last I checked, I have full right to practice my religion. How come no one says anything about Muslims going about sporting long beards or Christians being Christians? This nonsense has been peddled for too long.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 09 Jun 2011 17:11

somnath wrote:<SNIP> I dont know enough about the Manipur situation, by all accounts its complicated..But the limited point is if people are looking at "civil society" action, THAT is an example, not the BR spectacle, an airconditioned 5 star fast, preceded by negotations in 5 star hotels, and min-by-min soundbytes...

Sorry, that is not an example. Just because the media does not cover here and 100K people have not taken fancy to her, does not mean that everyone else be like her.

The supporters for BRD have not materialized from thin air. And it is a 'spectacle' becuase it has the power to unnerve the government - they (and media) could have chosen to ignore him like they do Irom Sharmila - but they did not. So, blame them and not him to make it a 'spectacle'.

AjayKK · Post by **AjayKK** » 09 Jun 2011 17:16

Nesoj wrote:

But then she (or those supporting her) neither claim ownership on the 'patriotism patent' nor walk about wearing saffron, ..... so it must be ok for her to be treated like this for over a decade and nary a beep from anyone from the rest of India

rohitvats wrote:Now coming to Saffron - what is wrong with wearing saffron colored clothes?

Saffron is expensive at Rs. 150 for one gram, surely there must be a black money trail if some one wears clothes dyed with saffron ?!
Bingo, saffron == black money.

Meanwhile,
Audited Balance Sheets of Divya Yog Mandir (Trust)
Audited Balance Sheets of Patanjali Yogpeeth (Trust)
Audited Balance Sheets of Bharat Svabhiman (Trust)
Audited Balance Sheets of Acharyakul Shiksha Sansthan

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 09 Jun 2011 17:33

Sagarika growls ....

http://blogs.outlookindia.com/default.a ... inpostname

Sagarika Ghose in the Hindustan Times:

The UPA has dispatched Ramdev to his ashram. The police action at the Ramlila Maidan was insupportable and the BJP has now gained a cause celebre. The RSS and the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) have fully supported Ramdev from the start. On Twitter, anyone critical of Ramdev is being dubbed a ‘Congress
agent’ by Sangh parivar activists.

The Ramdev phenomenon and, to some extent, the Anna Hazare campaign are part of India’s right-wing nationalist revolution. It is right-wing because it is based on national pride and individual entitlement. It is a movement of the middle and lower middle class buoyed up by 9% growth that now seeks a responsive, overtly honest government and a hard State.

This revolution is closely linked to a Hindu consolidation spreading through society. Perhaps as a backlash to globalisation, urban religiosity and Bharatiya sanskriti have become fashionable; faith in gurus is growing and it cuts across classes. Ramdev jumps from colas to homosexuality to black money in his choice of enemies, yet his devotees’ faith remains constant.

Notwithstanding the BJP’s crushing electoral defeats, the Hindu nationalist consolidation is gathering tremendous cultural momentum, much of which feeds into the anti-corruption campaigns. The Ram janmabhoomi movement is back, in a new sophisticated avatar.

So madam pontificates:

So middle class and lower middle are bad people.
If you want a responsive, honest Govt, you are right wing and you need to be persecuted.
If you have national pride, you are right wing and need to persecuted.

Just turn anti-national and support Corrupt Italian crook. Bingo! You will become secular!

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 09 Jun 2011 18:01

The biggest +ve I've seen from this movement is that it has forced the pseudo-seculars to clearly take side and articulate their views. Not that we at BRF did not know this but the message has now reached far and wide. An article like above is as blatant an admission of one's leaning as possible - it clearly brings out the deracination as well as the extent to which media is hand-in glove with Congress.

I've had discussions with my freinds and colleagues and save a few, every one can see the who is what. As they say, there is silver lining in every cloud.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 09 Jun 2011 18:04

So the picture emerges like this:

1. Advani starts talks with Swiss to bring back black money in 1999.

2. During UPA-I Germany on its own offers to hand over names and accounts of Indians with black money accounts, and UPA is not willing to take it.

3. Finally after lots of ho halla by opposition the UPA signs some agreement but added with clause that these names will not be made public. Now people say this was a secret request of UPA to Germany and not a condition of Germans.

4. More money found in Mauritius, BRD says 50 lakh crores and wants it to be declared under law as Indian State's money. He moves around 300 cities in last 2 years informing people on this scam, but but....................................
THERE IS A COMPLE MEDIA BLACKOUT REGARDING ALL THIS!

5. Meanwhile various scams are unravelling 2G and all that, interestingly on bofors HC issue Ram Jethmalani is called on TIMES NOW by Arnab Joshi, during the debate Jethmalani shows a book (forgot its name) and says this book is not being allowed to publish in india but published in west and the author writes "Rahul Gandhi has accepted that Rajiv had Swiss account and now I have it, but I'm making good use of the money for poor". Arnab shuts down Jethmalani with "Now you are broadening the base of this debate". No word comes after that.

6. Now AH enters the scene with his Lokpal agenda, and we see lots of coverage on the TV, matter goes on.

7. Now after building up the whole momentum in the country on this issue RD enters Delhi to fast in Ramlila Maidan. While Pranav Mukherjee and other ministers go to recieve him on airport, lots of red carpet. RD makes sounds about PM being kept out of Lokpal, so more talks with Daud Ibrahim's Lawyer in Claridges hotel.

8. Suddenly RD's letter is shown and there is garma garmi from both sides, which ends with turning Ramlila Maidan into mini Jalianwala Bagh.

9. Now today ToIlet reports that Pigvijay has taken a potshot on Pranav Mukherjee saying on the lines of "he gambled with his carrier by going to airport for Ramdev".

Now with elections 3 years away..................

wonder if Pranav can do a VP Singh, I think VP also resigned 3 years before elections and worked around to bring RG govt. down.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 09 Jun 2011 18:05

vijayk wrote:Sagarika growls ....

Perhaps as a backlash to globalisation, urban religiosity and Bharatiya sanskriti have become fashionable

This dimwit seems to be making the argument that globalization and Bharatiya sanskriti are contradictory....She clearly has no idea that it is perhaps the more globalized Indians that are settled abroad or have experienced different cultures that have always shown more affinity to sanskriti than the rootless non-cosmopolitan wonders of urban India !

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 09 Jun 2011 18:59

Atri wrote:http://bharat-swabhiman.com/en/baba-ram ... atyagraha/

The demands are arranged in order of priority..

Fantastic - I hadnt seen all of this in one place before (not here either)..But anyways, if this is the list, I am surprised why the govt didnt either agree 100% or disagree 100% - what was that 1% left "in the air" - its so superficial that accepting everything in toto or the other way round, both could have been justified equally well...

Lets see..

1. Declare accounts of Indians in tax havens as national property - GOI must declare all tax haven accounts of Indian corrupts to be national property through an ordinance and later with enactment of a bill. This is a very easy step to execute and does not conflict with any foreign policy, treaty or agreement.

One, what is "national property"? To be liberal, lets assume that what he means is to "attach" the property/money...But hang on, you can attach the property/money of people you can identify, isnt it? Second, one has to prove that the money was acquired through "criminal" means for it to be attached...Third, the banks offshore need to be convinced to part with client info - something even the mighty US had trouble getting out of UBS in a very very small level...Its something that multilateral bodies like FATF have struggled with even for serious issues like terror funding trails and the like...And this is supposed to be "easy to execute"!!! The govt is supposed to attach monies whose ownership it doesnt know, whose location is not known, whose details are at the mercy of complex international financial treaties - I guess the only way to do that would be to invoke the spirits to give virtual imagery of the details..

2. Declare stashing away black money in tax havens as national crime - GOI must declare the act of stashing away of black money in swiss banks as a ‘Rajdroh’ or national crime because it has led to disasters in our country. 883 people die every HOUR just because of malnutrition and hunger whereas corrupt people out there are carrying out scams worth lakhs of crores which could be used for the development of our nation. Such big scams are only because stashing away of money in swiss banks is very easy for the corrupt.

What is a "national crime" again? Hmmm, and why is only stashing the money away in tax havens criminal, why not stashing it under one's bed? But lets let such small details pass...Seems that the good Baba and his advisors mix up two very different issues - corruption and black money...The former is a criminal offence, it involvves cheating or defrauding someone/public/govt...The latter is about not paying tax on certain income/txn that one is supposed to...Black money can be generated through criminal activities, but it can also be generated througg legal activities, like business and investments...But again, why bother with such practical niceties when rhetoric will do..

3. Death penalty and lifetime imprisonment for the corrupt - GOI must pass a law to enforce death penalty or lifetime imprisonment on people who are found to be guilty of corrupt practices. The only reason that corruption is so widespread today is that there is no punishment for the corrupt and they enjoy luxurious freedom inspite of putting the nation at stake.

Hmmm...Finally something that is objective and clear...But practical as a deterrent?! Well, lets not get into that..At least soemthing that expresses a clear POV..

5. Setting up of fast track courts in all states to deal specially with corruption issues - The government needs to setup fast track courts in all the states so that punishing the corrupt becomes easy. Crores of cases are pending in courts at the moment which would take years to clear up. We need faster execution and stronger laws to deal with this cancer

Mass of motherhood statements...There already are special "fast track" CBI (and some other) courts for major corruption cases...Need "faster execution and stronger laws" - what laws, what changes in execution? Again, the point has been done, so why bother with the minutiae of practical implementability...

6. Removal of high denomination currency notes from the economy – Government should immediately recall high denomination notes from the economy to prevent internal black money formation. Today we have 100 lakh crores of black money circulating inside our economy and thats because Rs. 1000, Rs.500 notes make it easier for corrupt people to transport, carry and store large sums of money for purpost of illegal and corrupt dealings. These notes should be removed immediately. There is no use of these notes when 80 crore+ people in our country live on a daily income of Rs.20 and never get the luxury of even seeing a Rs.500 note.

.Obviously proceeds from illegal transactions are ferried in trucks as 500 rupee notes, taken to some physical currency exchange and then shipped to Switzerland! Econ 99?

7. Educational curriculum in Bharatiya Languages - Curriculum and examinations of engineering, medical, agriculture should be made available in Bharatiye languages too and as fast as possible so that even a villager can get education properly instead of being deprived on the name of a foreign language(English) which we are using as the primary mode of education even after 64 years of independence. What a shame! We are not against english. But we must learn to respect our own languages first.

What can I say? Besides the absurdity of the proposal itself, how is it relevant to corruption or black money?

8. Ban the Land Acquisition Act - This act was brought by the Britishers to loot us and what a shame that we still have this law and its also being used to loot the poor farmers till date who are the people providing and catering to the hunger needs of our nation. This agricultural loot needs to be stopped NOW!

BAN the Act! And do what? Build India on thin air? Again, not clear on how banning this ACt will take care of corruption..

9. Direct election of the Prime Minister - History has shown that indirect selection of Prime Ministers has only lead to political troubles because most of the time the PM is busy safeguarding his chair putting national interest at stake. Political instability and personal conflicts in parties lead to instability in the governance just because of this reason. So the PM should be directly elected by the people and should be directly accountable to the citizens of this country.

??? This is supposed to be an implementable programme?

10. Enactment of a strong Public Service Delivery Guarantee Act - If any citizen is denied service by any govt official within a stipulated period of time then the concerned official will have to pay penalty in the form of money to the particular citizen on a daily/weekly basis. This will help to make execution of government offices faster and prevent laziness and bribery

Not sure how it prevents bribery, but a reasonable point...

All in all, a bunch of feel good statements interspersed with some really bizarre ones - and we are to take this as a serious "civil society engagement" exercise? Well people who do are obviously welcome to do so, but the sheer lack of thought to tackle the substantive issue is glaringly clear...

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 09 Jun 2011 19:10

My two pence on the issue of corruption and black money, and how they can be tackled...

One, the two are linked in some ways, but not the same...

Black money is simply income generated on which no tax has been paid..Primarily, it arises becase of 3 reasons

1. Tax levels are too high - people dont want to pay tax
2. Tax regime is too complicated - its too messy, hence people look to take the easy way out
3. Tax regime is full of loopholes, encouraging people to evade taxes

In India, we have had massive movement in #1 sicne reforms - our rates are in line with rest of Asia...But 2 and 3 are largely pending..the GST and DTC are the big bang reforms to adress both those issues..Unfortunately the GST has been hanging fire for 2-3 years now, thanks to the cussedness of a few state govts...

Once done, these should substantially make the tax regime simpler and better monitorable...The amount of black money generated through normal "business" should automatically reduce (we have seen that with reduction in tax rates as well)..Which is what Ila Patnaik was saying in that IE column..

Corruption on the other hand is a 100% criminal activity, but the really large part of it is due to one reason - very large residuary powers with the govt..

Reforms was supposed to take discretionary powers out of govt hands...Unfortunately, due tovaious reasons, there are still too much discretion left with the govt..Primarily because regulatory regimes have not kept pace with increased demand for various things, esp natural resources and changes in technology...

There is a large long pending agenda on this...Mining Rights laws, strengthening regulators in various natural resources sectors - this is a vast area, this is what is sometimes described as "2nd gen reforms"...

This givt has been singularly criminal in not acting on the above, despite its mandate...

The converstion IMO needs to be along these lines - make the govt accountable for specific, measurable actions...Motherhood intention statements or rhetoric is actually welcomed by a moribund govt - they can simply respond with more motherhood rhetoric, without having to really do anything...

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 09 Jun 2011 19:11

Somnath:

direct election of heads of state happens in other countries. if we wanted to do it in India, it can be done.

he is drawing attention to Land Acquisition Act. the idea is to let people know about specific things that he thinks are bad. rest is up to people. and I am of the opinion that if the British did anything in India, it must be looked into before we start replicating it...I'm sure that doesn't sit well with the enlightened P-secs...

what "point has been done?" what is this point that GoI implemented. the "fast track" is a general idea that he is asking GoI to pay attention to. what's wrong with that. as is my understanding, Lokpal is supposed to deal with the "fast track" issue also. and Ramdev already gave his support for Lokpal. it is GoI which is trying to dilute Lokpal and other initiatives. the "point" has not been taken, contrary to what you say.

you are deriding him for bringing out an issue to huge national focus b/c he doesn't meet your standards of education etc. his knowledge of the details of law might not be enough, but that doesn't discredit his movement or his effort to bring awareness. here's how I diagnose your symptoms: "how dare this illiterate speak of laws and justice when he doesn't know anything???" that is your attitude. it is uncannily similar to the upturned lips that I see in the West from Urban elite.....

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 09 Jun 2011 19:16

Somnath:

you keep repeating that RD's movement is letting the govt go easily. that is in stark contrast to the reality. if Ramdev was taking heat off govt, then GoI wouldn't react as it did. there is a specifically targeted hatred and fear emanating from INC that is an indication of how much they hate/fear Ramdev. you argument that they just messed up the handling of the issue is bunk; the statements made by INC leaders is indicative of their deadly intent against Ramdev. that tells me they are scared of him, regardless of your statements that Ramdev is a distraction, which is contrary to what's happening.

sugriva · Post by **sugriva** » 09 Jun 2011 19:20

Death penalty and lifetime imprisonment for the corrupt GOI must pass a law to enforce death penalty or lifetime imprisonment on people who are found to be guilty of corrupt practices.

Agreed, lets have death penalty for a lot of other corrupt practices also like selling fake medicines. In any case since no corruption is possible without gubmint babu help so one or the other babu will also be taken to the slammer.

6. Removal of high denomination currency notes from the economy

This is one demand that the cheel-chhap passport owners who post here will have real trouble with when they will land at the airports and have to pay the taxi driver in local currency with. Good luck with carrying thick wads of Rs 10 notes to pay off the driver.

Educational curriculum in Bharatiya Languages

I am all for any idea that reduces competition for jobs in the global economy.

Direct election of the Prime Minister

Wonderfool and elect whom, BRD

Jokes apart, the only communities with an ability to mobilize pan India wide are Muslims and Dalits. Directly elected PMs or Presidents will alternately come from either of the above communities. But BRD's too clever by half supporters will devise a scheme whereby only tax payers will be allowed to vote for the Prime Minister and will get him elected.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 09 Jun 2011 19:22

sagarika ghosh...

bji will prolly tell it better, but this is not new, this is an old working theory and has been worked on for many years continuously. sagarika is just peddling it. its not hers.

but trust sagarika to cook up an adjective 'overt' for honesty and make honesty sound bad. wtf is overt honesty? and why is it preferable to covert honesty or worse overt/covert dishonesty?

overt honesty: i demand nobody cheats in exams.
covert honesty: but i want everyone to look like they are cheating in the exam, even if they are not, so that those of us who want to cheat can cheat without fear.

praksam · Post by **praksam** » 09 Jun 2011 19:23

OT but thought of sharing. Some IIT'ian blogging the karnama of yuvraj on facebook.

http://www.facebook.com/notes/salil-shu ... 3649286555

Rahul Gandhi exposed by an IIT student...
by Salil Shukla on Friday, May 27, 2011 at 6:15am
THE CURIOUS CASE OF RAHUL GANDHI

Rahul Gandhi: "I feel ashamed to call myself an INDIAN after seeing what has happened here in UP".

PLEASE DON'T BE ASHAMED OF U.P. YET

Please don't be ashamed of Uttar Pradesh yet. Congress ruled the State for the Majority of the duration Pre Independence to Post Independence.. from 1939 to 1989 ( barring the Periods of Emergency.. Thanks to your Grand Mom Indira G. and a couple of transitional Governments)

8 out of the total 14 Prime Ministers of India have been from UP, 6 out of those 8 have been from Congress...

I think your party had more than half a century and half a Dozen PM's to build a State...

The Reason Mulayam Singh, subsequently came to Power is because your party wasn't exactly Gandhian in their dealings in the State.. So May be If you look at in totality the present chaos in UP is the outcome of the glorious leadership displayed by Congress in UP for about 50 years!

So Please don't feel ashamed as yet Dear Rahul.. For Mayawati is only using the Land Acquisition Bill which your party had itself used to LOOT the Farmers many times in the Past!

WHY DIDN'T YOUR PARTY CHANGE THE BILL WHEN IT WAS IN POWER FOR SO LONG?
Not that I Endorse what Mayawati is doing.. What Mayawati is doing is Unacceptable..

But the past actions of your party and your recent comments, puts a question mark on your INTENT and CONSISTENCY.

YOU REALLY WANT TO FEEL ASHAMED

But don't be disappointed, I would give you ample reasons to feel ashamed...

You really want to feel Ashamed..?

First Ask Pranav Mukherjee, Why isn't he giving the details of the account holders in the Swiss Banks.

Ask your Mother, Who is impeding the Investigation against Hasan Ali?

Ask her, Who got 60% Kickbacks in the 2G Scam ?

Kalamdi is accused of a Few hundred Crores, Who Pocketed the Rest in the Common Wealth Games?

Ask Praful Patel what he did to the Indian Airlines? Why did Air India let go of the Profitable Routes ?

Why should the Tax Payer pay for the Air India losses, when you intend to eventually DIVEST IT ANYWAY!!!

Also, You People can't run an Airline Properly. How can we expect you to run the Nation?

Ask Manmohan Singh. Why/What kept him quiet for so long?

Are Kalmadi and A Raja are Scapegoats to save Big Names like Harshad Mehta was in the 1992 Stock Market Scandal ?

Who let the BHOPAL GAS TRAGEDY Accused go Scot Free? ( 20,000 People died in that Tragedy)

Who ordered the State Sponsored Massacre of SIKHS in 84?

Please read more about, How Indira Gandhi pushed the Nation Under Emergency in 76-77, after the HC declared her election to Lok Sabha Void!

(I bet She had utmost respect for DEMOCRACY and JUDICIARY and FREE PRESS)

I guess you know the answers already. So My question is, Why the Double Standards in Judging Mayawati and members of your Family and Party?

I condemn Mayawati. But Is She the only one you feel Ashamed for?

What about the ones close to you? For their contribution to the Nation's Misery is beyond comparison.

You talk about the Land being taken away from the Farmers. How many Suicides have happened under your Parties Rule in Vidarbha ? Does that Not Ashame You ?

THE 72,000 CRORE LOAN WAIVER

....... Continues

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 09 Jun 2011 19:24

Wonderfool and elect whom, BRD Jokes apart, the only communities with an ability to mobilize pan India wide are Muslims and Dalits. Directly elected PMs or Presidents will alternately come from either of the above communities. But BRD's too clever by half supporters will devise a scheme whereby only tax payers will be allowed to vote for the Prime Minister and will get him elected.

now you are making strawman arguments and thumping you chest, "look, I beat up the stick figure. what a genius I am!"

once again, you might disagree and not like some of Ramdev's ideas.....but why the rabid hatred of and for him, including his "illiterate" followers???? the frothing at the mouth from all of your P-secs is very revealing.

Tamang · Post by **Tamang** » 09 Jun 2011 19:27

sugriva wrote:
Educational curriculum in Bharatiya Languages
I am all for any idea that reduces competition for jobs in the global economy.

I think RD means in Bhartiya Langauges also alongwith English. What is wrong in that?

SRoy · Post by **SRoy** » 09 Jun 2011 19:27

sugriva wrote:But BRD's too clever by half supporters will devise a scheme whereby only tax payers will be allowed to vote for the Prime Minister and will get him elected.

Are you a tax evader?

Shivering that you and your friends would not be able to vote?

sugriva · Post by **sugriva** » 09 Jun 2011 19:29

^^^ Devesh, The tragedy of the matter is that BRD's supporters are not illiterate and poor but are city bred, tax paying, pub hopping, mall ratting middle class people. These are the people who want the gain of political power but without the pain of even standing in the sun to vote. It is this class' hypocrisy and conceit, "are vote to 100 rupae mein bikhta hain" that are of concern to a liberal democracy.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 09 Jun 2011 19:30

We can discard Mr Digvijay Singh: He incarnates the world of sycophancy, which is a perversion of the Indian bhakti tradition.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/344496/The- ... begun.html

everyday you learn something new.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 09 Jun 2011 19:34

Fantastic - I hadnt seen all of this in one place before (not here either)..But anyways, if this is the list, I am surprised why the govt didnt either agree 100% or disagree 100% - what was that 1% left "in the air" - its so superficial that accepting everything in toto or the other way round, both could have been justified equally well...

I too tried to find the list here last 10 pages or so. However there are 2 ways of looking at this issue: 1. A broader macro perspective the idea of which is to create a mass awareness against corruption. 2. The specific demand list that you were requesting and getting barbs in return.

From the 1st perspective i think AH and BR have been a success. From the 2nd perspective on the specifics this goes into the political domain apart from the legal and economic ones. The 2nd list is a set of demands that he urges the GOI to fulfill by fasting. The specifics are highly debatable and controversial i can venture to say. What i find about the list is just some patch up cursory work put up as 'demands' without much thought going into it. Emotions cannot override reality, however much we are fed up of what we see around. Now a 3rd perspective has emerged on the GOI's treatment in the breakup of the rally and the subsequent reactions on the side of the INC and others. I think that is what will take the major focus from now on. These 'demands' are not going to be fulfilled by anyone soon. In any case the precedent of 50k people sitting and making generalized demands is not going to sway things. The better way is dealing with these demands on a political platform and opening up a debate say on direct nomination of PM and legal and economic ways to tackle corruption.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 09 Jun 2011 19:35

sugriva wrote:^^^ Devesh, The tragedy of the matter is that BRD's supporters are not illiterate and poor but are city bred, tax paying, pub hopping, mall ratting middle class people. These are the people who want the gain of political power but without the pain of even standing in the sun to vote. It is this class' hypocrisy and conceit, "are vote to 100 rupae mein bikhta hain" that are of concern to a liberal democracy.

even more lies!!! the average BRD follower is not the IT-Vity fellows. it's the more rural oriented folks. they are not the "pub hopping" kewl people that you speak of. I don't know where you got that from. you seem to have take inspiration from Sagarika Ghosh in the above article....and what exactly are they doing when they go out to his camps. aren't they spending time outside of their homes and supposedly, pubs, and restaurants???? these followers were with him in Ramlila maidan....they were making their effort. clearly taking the pains to stand up for what they believe in.....your notion that they are lazy idiots who couldn't care to vote is wrong. I don't know about their voting habits, and neither do you. they are doing their part by actively participating in Ramdev's movement. that is clearly undergoing "pain," as you put it.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 09 Jun 2011 19:38

harbans wrote:Fantastic - I hadnt seen all of this in one place before (not here either)..But anyways, if this is the list, I am surprised why the govt didnt either agree 100% or disagree 100% - what was that 1% left "in the air" - its so superficial that accepting everything in toto or the other way round, both could have been justified equally well...

I too tried to find the list here last 10 pages or so. However there are 2 ways of looking at this issue: 1. A broader macro perspective the idea of which is to create a mass awareness against corruption. 2. The specific demand list that you were requesting and getting barbs in return.

From the 1st perspective i think AH and BR have been a success. From the 2nd perspective on the specifics this goes into the political domain apart from the legal and economic ones. The 2nd list is a set of demands that he urges the GOI to fulfill by fasting. The specifics are highly debatable and controversial i can venture to say. What i find about the list is just some patch up cursory work put up as 'demands' without much thought going into it. Emotions cannot override reality, however much we are fed up of what we see around. Now a 3rd perspective has emerged on the GOI's treatment in the breakup of the rally and the subsequent reactions on the side of the INC and others. I think that is what will take the major focus from now on. These 'demands' are not going to be fulfilled by anyone soon. In any case the precedent of 50k people sitting and making generalized demands is not going to sway things. The better way is dealing with these demands on a political platform and opening up a debate say on direct nomination of PM and legal and economic ways to tackle corruption.

finally.....I see somebody criticizing some aspects of BRD without resorting to rabid hatred and frothing at the mouth mentality. without words like "saffron chaddis," "saffron brigade," "illiterates," and other assorted sneers and derisions....

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 09 Jun 2011 19:45

somnath wrote: One, what is "national property"? To be liberal, lets assume that what he means is to "attach" the property/money...But hang on, you can attach the property/money of people you can identify, isnt it? Second, one has to prove that the money was acquired through "criminal" means for it to be attached...Third, the banks offshore need to be convinced to part with client info - something even the mighty US had trouble getting out of UBS in a very very small level...Its something that multilateral bodies like FATF have struggled with even for serious issues like terror funding trails and the like...And this is supposed to be "easy to execute"!!! The govt is supposed to attach monies whose ownership it doesnt know, whose location is not known, whose details are at the mercy of complex international financial treaties - I guess the only way to do that would be to invoke the spirits to give virtual imagery of the details.

You sure are master of semantics here. So, as per you, the problem is getting hold of the information and then getting the money back into India. OK. But does it mean that one should not even try? How about GOI clearly inacting a mechanism that it will target such off-shore accounts. If I take your argument to its logical conclusion, it means, "this is not doable as per me, let us not even try". And why? Because US had a tough time doing it or some multi--lateral body has had tough time. But did that stop them from trying? Rape case conviction rate is extremely low in India - should we scrap that law as well?

You're whining like a loser - this is not doable and that is not doable and hence, let us not do it. Let the GOI, or better, Congress, show the intention of doing something - the results can come later. We've seem with Q case that Congress can scuttle a good case if it wants to - let is see if they can do the other way around.

What is a "national crime" again? Hmmm, and why is only stashing the money away in tax havens criminal, why not stashing it under one's bed? But lets let such small details pass...Seems that the good Baba and his advisors mix up two very different issues - corruption and black money...The former is a criminal offence, it involvves cheating or defrauding someone/public/govt...The latter is about not paying tax on certain income/txn that one is supposed to...Black money can be generated through criminal activities, but it can also be generated througg legal activities, like business and investments...But again, why bother with such practical niceties when rhetoric will do..

Hair splitting again, are we? And how 'cool' you make out tax-evasion to be? Black money through legal activities - how nice. I guess, than the black money is not black, or is it?

How is with-holding tax that one is suppoed to pay not same as "cheating"? With cheated party being GOI?

How does it make a difference from county's POV? In both cases, the money has been siphoned off from India and should get back to the country and hopefully, used for constructive purposes.

Mass of motherhood statements...There already are special "fast track" CBI (and some other) courts for major corruption cases...Need "faster execution and stronger laws" - what laws, what changes in execution? Again, the point has been done, so why bother with the minutiae of practical implementability...

There is a difference between fast-track courts as special cases and fast-track courts as 'normal' for corruption case - as demand by BRD. There is a need to put the fear of law into the hearts of such people and that can only happen if their is visible justice delivered in double-quick time. So, what is so difficult about it?

Obviously proceeds from illegal transac ... ! Econ 99?

I guess, you need to read common sense 101 - is every paisa of black money stored in Swiss Bank a/c? How about people like the IAS couple with >200crores in assets and cash? Or the list one regularly reads in Karnataka newspapers of clerks and othe lower grade officers - courtsey the Lok Pal?

BAN the Act! And do what? Build India on thin air? Again, not clear on how banning this ACt will take care of corruption..

Brilliant - this takes the cake. This is the most abused act in the country and god knows how many acres acquired by various state government for development projects have ended up with builders. And please don't bring in examples of big industrial projects - the land acquired for them is a drop in ocean as compared to land acquired by government and used in real estate play. The only ones making money under this act are the babu log and minister. And of course, the builder who takes the land at dirt cheap prices and earns many a 100 times profit.

All that he has demanded is long over due.....

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Jun 2011 19:54

anything which reinforces pride in indic culture or demands accountability from the elites is always very scary to the delhi DU/JNU creatures who infest the media and academia.

the anti-corruption movements being a offshoot of "revivalist hinduism" is a new twist to the web of lies. if you catch any 100 muslims, sikhs or shintoists on the streets and ask them about corruption and the need to punish the big crooks they will also express 101% support.

negi · Post by **negi** » 09 Jun 2011 19:56

Arjun wrote:This dimwit seems to be making the argument that globalization and Bharatiya sanskriti are contradictory....She clearly has no idea that it is perhaps the more globalized Indians that are settled abroad or have experienced different cultures that have always shown more affinity to sanskriti than the rootless non-cosmopolitan wonders of urban India !

We can do away with such a wide brush.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 09 Jun 2011 19:57

^^^
exactly, the rabid hatred of "hindus" is very evident. just b/c a man wears saffron clothing, he will be smeared, ridiculed, derided and beaten up if need be. the repeated comments about "RSS," "hindu brigade," "saffron brigade," "thug," etc are indications of this hatred.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 09 Jun 2011 20:09

According to Subramanium Swamy, Sonia Gandhi has flown to Milan and is en route to Switzerland to fix her assets

@mmpandit : Now Sonia has buzzed off to Milan by Jet Airways enroute to Zug in Switzerland to fix her accounts.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 09 Jun 2011 20:26

Sushupti wrote:
We can discard Mr Digvijay Singh: He incarnates the world of sycophancy, which is a perversion of the Indian bhakti tradition.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/344496/The- ... begun.html
everyday you learn something new.

That is a nice article by Francois Gautier - The battle of Kaliyuga has begun - http://www.dailypioneer.com/344496/The- ... begun.html

Sometimes, foreigners who have consciously chosen to align with the Indic civilization can express truths more clearly than Indics who are on the defensive about their heritage.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 09 Jun 2011 20:37

devesh wrote:^^^
exactly, the rabid hatred of "hindus" is very evident. just b/c a man wears saffron clothing, he will be smeared, ridiculed, derided and beaten up if need be. the repeated comments about "RSS," "hindu brigade," "saffron brigade," "thug," etc are indications of this hatred.

Don't you see Hindi movies? Even Telugu movies are in the same trend. Or try catching up with TV serials. The villians always do pujas, havans while the heros being devout hindus is very rare. Similarly all the good character heroines of the TV serials will be wearing modern western dresses. Even if they sport a bindi it will be a small to invisible. The dreaded saaasu ma and the dreaded sister-in-law will have designer sarees and designer bindis. Even for college level stuff, a rabid eve teaseer will be wearing a saffron scraff and sporting a tilak.

When I was like in fifth standard, someone told me that as we "progress" the word Ram will be a bad word like behen****. I though he is silly but I see the reality now.