The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 09 Jun 2011 20:40

^^^

the only way to rectify the problem is for us to consciously associate with Hinduism and prove the propaganda wrong. our peers and colleagues should get used to seeing us wear Tilak everyday to college/office. I've seen this in US. Gujarati Vaishnavas proudly wear Tilak on their foreheads. no inferiority complex, or "what will everybody say?" I was astonished at first, then ashamed at my own deracinated thinking, and later started following the example...

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 09 Jun 2011 20:41

Sushupti wrote: That is a nice article by Francois Gautier - The battle of Kaliyuga has begun -

http://www.dailypioneer.com/344496/The- ... begun.html

Excellent article, a keeper. But the problem of the law of Karma is that one never knows the time cycle over which it operates. To this end, whether perverts like DS, MSA etc, "South Asians" like MMS, and Italian colonialists lkike Sonia will be meted out justice during our lifetime is to be seen.

.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 09 Jun 2011 20:41

Devesh ji, whenever such things happen, specially after the way DP handled the break up, it becomes difficult to separate the grain from the proverbial chaff. All roads to hell are paved with good intention. Intention alone does not suffice to eliminate evil. That's why i mentioned left socialists like HP. High moral standing and extremely good intentions. But left socialism did India in. India's corruption as manifested in the License Raj was a direct manifestation of left socialism. The specifics are always more important. It's always prudent to ask How are you going to achieve such goals. What means are you going to apply etc. Shoot all, execute anyone, kill anyone who is enemy of the state, corrupt etc type solutions one sees in Paki forum threads. This is where many of our grass root politicians too are unaware and possess incompetence to lead the nation. As long as the rally was creating a mass awareness it is a success. The specifics on what exactly they want are highly debatable. They are political, economic, legal implications much beyond the capability of BR to comprehend and lead on. MMS may be a good economist, but we see he's bogus on strategic affairs. Same may apply to BR. Once he puts up specifics in the political, economic and legal arena, he is also inviting flak.

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 09 Jun 2011 20:46

somnath wrote: We were discssing the modus operandi and objectives of BR, not the "common man"...I am still at a loss on what is "this" that the good Baba wanted in order to not do the "fast", apparently 99% of of which was accpeted by the govt...

The amount of masssive takleef that you are having over this is simply astounding when the fact is that Ramdev has not done anything unknown or illegal in Indian political environment. Makes me wonder if Korrupt Kangress has setup an internet propaganda department along the lines of CCP internet propoganda department. Certainly when it comes to dealing with public, CCP seems to be the current role model.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 09 Jun 2011 20:47

somnath:

You say tax levels are high. Based on WHAT? The marginal income tax burden in the state of CA is in excess of 50%. In much of Western Europe it is even higher. Prior to the times of Reagan the marginal tax rate on the richest in the US was as high as 70%.

The state acquiring the ill-gotten wealth of individuals is not a new phenomenon. It happens even at the state level. Look at how Gaddafi's accounts are being sealed all over the West.

People who stashed money outside the country did not pay their taxes. Further this money gets channelized into a few specific asset classes producing asset bubbles (like in Real-Estate in some areas) which eventually ends badly and hurts the common man.

The transition should be gradual. People should be allowed to declare their ill-gotten wealth, pay taxes and bring it back in. However those who refuse to should be thrown in to a special jail constructed near the LOC.

Please stop talking from the wrong orifice.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 09 Jun 2011 20:49

somnath wrote:
7. Educational curriculum in Bharatiya Languages - Curriculum and examinations of engineering, medical, agriculture should be made available in Bharatiye languages too and as fast as possible so that even a villager can get education properly instead of being deprived on the name of a foreign language(English) which we are using as the primary mode of education even after 64 years of independence. What a shame! We are not against english. But we must learn to respect our own languages first.
What can I say? Besides the absurdity of the proposal itself, how is it relevant to corruption or black money?

What is absurd about it, apart from the initial expenditure lots of employment will be generated for teachers, subsequently the students would graduate and be an asset provided we give them opportunities in our own country in the whole swath of sectors like hi tech industry, finance, services, agriculture and if you still don't believe it better ask Russia, Japan, Germany etc. as to what their per capita income is.
In any case English will still continue so all this optional nobody is thrusting anything.
The only thing absurd here are your statements nothing else.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 09 Jun 2011 20:55

rohitvats wrote:You're whining like a loser - this is not doable and that is not doable and hence, let us not do it

Oh now, insisting that anyone looking to play politics answer to the same standards of accountability that we demand of politicians is "whining"? So the Navy Chief asks for 10 nuclear submarines, 4 CBGs and 50 MPAs along with a military alliance with the US and Russia and transit rights to Thailand via Myanmar, all to be able to defend India against China - someone points out the "bizarreness" of the idea, he is whining?!

Especially if the entire attempt simply lets the govt off the hook on the really tough questions..On the agenda that is unfinished for long...On the growth that is seemingly flagging...

Purely on the issue of corruption and black money - refer to my post above -there is a big laundry list of pending "reforms", that will tackle the very issuies at their hearts...Not my ideas, they have been around for a long time...Now is the time to press on the pressure on the govt to implement..But no, we shall rather have this tamasha whose message is this garbled rubbish...Allowing the govt some more time and space to dither on the decisiosn making..

Which is why the efforts of Arvind K and Co is refreshingly stark...They have insisted upon, and made a difference..The govt has had to take verifiable, concrete steps on Lokpal..They havent been able to obfuscate the issue behind saffron, RSS, thug et al...The reason? Arvind K and Co are in it for the purpose they state (I have heard Arvind K a few times in his younger days face-to-face - the passion for public service and sincerity showed through), not for political brand building...Hence, the message is more important - the messenger, essentially AH is a totem pole to get media attention...

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 09 Jun 2011 20:58

sugriva wrote:
Direct election of the Prime Minister
Wonderfool and elect whom, BRD Jokes apart, the only communities with an ability to mobilize pan India wide are Muslims and Dalits. Directly elected PMs or Presidents will alternately come from either of the above communities. But BRD's too clever by half supporters will devise a scheme whereby only tax payers will be allowed to vote for the Prime Minister and will get him elected.

Wonderfool do we continue with MMS and maino? why cant people choose their PM directly.Good for checks and balances.Rest of what you have written above is pure nonsense not backed by any facts.The real problem for guys like you is that the Indics instead of feeling helpless might feel empowered.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 09 Jun 2011 21:02

Especially if the entire attempt simply lets the govt off the hook on the really tough questions..On the agenda that is unfinished for long...On the growth that is seemingly flagging...

this point has been refuted 3 times by me and by several others. please respond to that or stop peddling this baseless nonsense....

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 09 Jun 2011 21:02

When it comes to efficacy of BR's yoga techniques to cure health problems, and his claims thereof, the scientist/enginner in me cannot take them at face value. Clinical trials are needed, and even those, who knows how much to trust the results given the number of parameters involved and their variability.

To me just like regular exercise (jogging, bycycling, weights), his yoga and breathing technicques make you feel good, and do have some general health benefits: regulate blood pressure, sugar levels, cholesterol etc. Of course, there is the meditative and spiritual aspects, but once again, each individual needs to explore those and not take any claim at face value. I do his his Yoga exercies and breathing routines (Bbastrika, kapal bhaati, agni saar kria, bhaiya pranyam, anulom vilom) regularly, and I can say it feels good, and has some general health benefits. It relaxes me and prepares me for some contemplative meditation until of course the stresses and strains of day to day life come back to haunt me

.

I wouldn't claim anything beyond that, nor is it required, those benefits are in and of themselves great and BR is doing a yomen service teaching this to the aam aadmi.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 09 Jun 2011 21:03

somnath wrote:
Purely on the issue of corruption and black money - refer to my post above -there is a big laundry list of pending "reforms", that will tackle the very issuies at their hearts...Not my ideas, they have been around for a long time...

Great I seriously agree with your proposals above. No argument there.
Why don't you start seriously negotiating with the GOI about this and leave the Pointing holes in RD anti corruption movement.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Jun 2011 21:05

CRS,
So all those gains are negated when you come to BRF! Relaxation and contemplative meditation goes out of window! And then you have to go back for more.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 09 Jun 2011 21:05

^^^

after some thinking, i've come to the conclusion that the hatred is directed at the fact that he is a sanyasi who wears saffron. if it was kewl TFTA white boy/girl, especially a girl wearing tank tops with ample cleavage and form fitting sporties with midriff exposed doing the Yoga, like we seen on Massa TV everyday, there wouldn't be any problem. in fact they would go out of their way to applaud and inculcate themselves with the TFTAs.....

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 09 Jun 2011 21:06

VikramS wrote:You say tax levels are high.

No I said they were high, pre reforms...The rates are one area where there has been considerable movement forward...The relevant benchmarks are not legacy prosperous societies in US or efficient cradle-tograve socities in Europe..Rates in Idnia now are comparable to the rest of Asia, which is a more meaningful benchmark...The issue now is on the complexity of the tax regime..

VikramS wrote:Look at how Gaddafi's accounts are being sealed all over the West.

these are high profile cases, but bulk of the "black money", or unaccounted for money in India has been geenrated because there was less incentive to pay tax on genuine business/professional income...I mean, its the standard Laffer Curve theory - at 100% tax levels (it used to be 97% in India), people will pay no tax on their income, ergo it will accumulate as "black money"...

Manishw wrote:The only thing absurd here are your statements nothing else

Of course, what can be more absurd than taking away the single biggest competitive advantage of India today...While the Chinese try to emultae us in English education, we go the other way! And yes, a workforce scarcely knowledgeable in English will find it harder to stash away money in Anglophone tax havens, isnt it - they wont be able to tell their banker where they want to remit their "black money"! problem solved

this point has been refuted 3 times by me and by several others. please respond to that or stop peddling this baseless nonsense

Really? So have you seen in the last 7 days any questions to PC and Pranab Mukherjee on why the GST has not been introdcued in Parliament? Or why indeed he hasnt been able to fix the Land Acquisition Bill with Mamata bannerjee? Or strange, have you seen any questions on how Dayanidhi Maran continues in the Cabinet?

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 09 Jun 2011 21:11

^^^
do continue to live in the bubble. what we're seeing is massive pressure on GoI to concede to demands by AH/BR. if they don't come out in open support of some strong measures soon, they will be swamped by the anger of the public. before this happened, the useless questions were being asked, with no consequences.....for some time there would have been some heat, and then it would have gone away.

also, why are you blaming Ramdev for INC's misdoings??? blame INC for what they're doing. not Ramdev. Ramdev is not responsible for INC's actions. the fact that INC behaves in a certain way is Ramdev's fault too??? that is Lahori logic....Gawd, if only Ramdev didn't exist and INC wouldn't be so stupid....this is the argument you're peddling. if INC beats up Ramdev and his followers, it's Ramdev's mistake for daring to exist in your little cocoon....

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 09 Jun 2011 21:15

somnath wrote: We were discssing the modus operandi and objectives of BR

Even if all he is doing is to create "rukus", he is doing a fabulous job of doing so. That by itself is a major achievement, becuase it shows that Kangress doesn't have its act together.

His other major achievements:
1. He exposed the ugly face of Kangress government by forcing them to violently end his peaceful protest.
2. He has complete backing of the main opposition party.
3. He got supreme court to question the government on GoI undemocratic means for ending the protest.
4. He got the US spokesman to comment twice on "democratic" credentials of the current situation in India.
5. He got GoI to accept 90% of this demands.
6. He has organized one of the biggest peaceful protests in recent time.
7. He has brought the issue of black money in public lime light and put the GoI under extreme pressure over it.
8. He has galvanised a massive following and that too with purely legal and democratic means.
9. He has self-created from scratch and starting with very little means a global business empire and a very profitable one at that.

Just one of these achievement would be considered a "life achievement" by any standard and this SDRE guy is piling one on top of another with such ease that it is scaring the shit out of so-called "educated, rich, sophisticated" elites on the benefit list of Korrupt Kangress Klan (KKK) and its karyakartas such as yourself

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 09 Jun 2011 21:17

rohitvats wrote:The biggest +ve I've seen from this movement is that it has forced the pseudo-seculars to clearly take side and articulate their views. Not that we at BRF did not know this but the message has now reached far and wide. An article like above is as blatant an admission of one's leaning as possible - it clearly brings out the deracination as well as the extent to which media is hand-in glove with Congress.

I've had discussions with my freinds and colleagues and save a few, every one can see the who is what. As they say, there is silver lining in every cloud.

Quite correct , if these pseudo seculars and national traitors are to be identified they can be identified and flagged now.

If BRD is fighting for a right cause then for the sake of duty they can support his cause ,whether they support him or not.

These traitors when they had a chance all these years to take on the upa govt against its corrupt system through print/television media ,they didnt spell a word, but now see, they can call anyone right wing, RSS man etc, why? just to create delusion and divide amongst different faiths.

I think BRD should ask other Muslim, Sikh,and Christian leaders to come forward on the same platform so that their people also feel pride and are not left behind confused in this good cause because of the delusion created by traitors. For example muslim ulemas should declare the coming Ramadan as an event specially against corruption and a way to demand their Haq,etc. likewise all religious leaders can follow.

This will end the remaining of whatever creativity and scope of treason these traitors are left with..and also the chances of digvijay-rahul combo taking control of India's political power.

added :I think these pseudo seculars are also paid through hawala ,hence they have more pain

anmol · Post by **anmol** » 09 Jun 2011 21:19

@CRamS Ji, kindly see this page :- http://www.divyayoga.com/divya-yog-mand ... rveda.html

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 09 Jun 2011 21:20

He got GoI to accept 90% of this demands

Which are? (rest of the stuff are your POV, which you are entitield to)..

BTW, you take a US State Dept flunkey's certificate on our democracy so dearly!

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 09 Jun 2011 21:24

somnath wrote:
He got GoI to accept 90% of this demands
Which are? (rest of the stuff are your POV, which you are entitield to)..

Read the news. The rest is not POV, facts.

BTW, you take a US State Dept flunkey's certificate on our democracy so dearly!

No I don't, but let me know when YOU manage to get the state depart to react on ANY issue, let alone start a business empire from scratch and hence employ and enable livelyhood of 1000s, or make the supreme court of India question GoI, etc. etc. Your just jelous of Ramdev

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 09 Jun 2011 21:28

Dhiman wrote:Read the news

I happen to do that...Barring the point on Lokpal (where the good Baba himself is not sure what he means by "strong Lokpal - given his flipflops), which other "demand" in that 10 point list has been acceeded to? 1 out of 10 is now 90%?

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 09 Jun 2011 21:28

Somnath,
As an example,

This is from Atri’s post- http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p1107205

This is your reply- http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 4#p1107294

1) Many times when you want to write something you quote from base articles(not from some news on google) to state your view point. You have been ranting on and on regarding BRD. How come you did not go thru the same route here on BRD. Instead you dissed him on everything without any proper base articles from your own high standards.

2) You say govt action on BRD is wrong, corruption is wrong, etc etc-- but no base articles, no strong convictions, no separate posts dissing the corrupt congress govt, no strong opinions of your own or from others in the news/articles to buttress your points and many others. No separate lengthy posts dissing on them as you have against BRD now.

3) The above point 2) also occurs similarly in other dhaagas with sickening regularity.

JMTs.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 09 Jun 2011 21:31

devesh wrote:^^^

after some thinking, i've come to the conclusion that the hatred is directed at the fact that he is a sanyasi who wears saffron. if it was kewl TFTA white boy/girl, especially a girl wearing tank tops with ample cleavage and form fitting sporties with midriff exposed doing the Yoga, like we seen on Massa TV everyday, there wouldn't be any problem. in fact they would go out of their way to applaud and inculcate themselves with the TFTAs.....

Their reactions to AH to BR fasts bring out a lot of things.

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 09 Jun 2011 21:33

somnath wrote: Barring the point on Lokpal (where the good Baba himself is not sure what he means by "strong Lokpal - given his flipflops),

His flip-flops are HIS prerogative not yours.

which other "demand" in that 10 point list has been acceeded to? 1 out of 10 is now 90%?

LOL, didn't the GoI ministers start shouting that on the top of their voice that Ramdev made a "fool" out of them and that too after "written" GoI assurances. Just 1 out of 10 by itself is a major achievement.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 09 Jun 2011 21:33

somnath:

Use of local languages will simply loosen the monopoly of the well-off on better professions. India is a vast enough market that the need to be excellent speaker of English is not a necessary requirement. Very likely once an individual comes into the system, acquiring English skills is no big deal. So India will not lose its USP with China when it comes to the Western markets.

In a lot of ways, BR is a son of the soil. His appeal is not to English speaking, jhola-swinging intellectuals but the average Indian who has a TV and benefits from RDs message. They have big aspirations. They are also sick of corruption. They went to free India from the shackles of neo-colonists and utilize their full potential. English often becomes a barrier.

I personally have always been very critical of the reservation in higher-education but no focus on primary education policy of independent India. The emancipation would have been a lot more effective if every poor child could get a meal and education till the Age of 14. Very likely the need for reservation in higher education/jobs would have gone away. Right now a very small percentage of the population benefits from the reservation. But emancipation was never UPA's goal.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 09 Jun 2011 21:42

I wrote

Manishw wrote: What is absurd about it, apart from the initial expenditure lots of employment will be generated for teachers, subsequently the students would graduate and be an asset provided we give them opportunities in our own country in the whole swath of sectors like hi tech industry, finance, services, agriculture and if you still don't believe it better ask Russia, Japan, Germany etc. as to what their per capita income is.
In any case English will still continue so all this optional nobody is thrusting anything.
The only thing absurd here are your statements nothing else.

Then you very selectively wrote

Manishw wrote:The only thing absurd here are your statements nothing else

Then you proceed with this

somnath wrote: Of course, what can be more absurd than taking away the single biggest competitive advantage of India today...While the Chinese try to emultae us in English education, we go the other way! And yes, a workforce scarcely knowledgeable in English will find it harder to stash away money in Anglophone tax havens, isnt it - they wont be able to tell their banker where they want to remit their "black money"! problem solved

conveniently sidestepping all arguments about being optional good for people who cant be educated in English or properly in English.

You are just obfuscating facts and in my opinion are an INC equivalent of the CCP's 50c party.You stand exposed for what you actually are.A shill and nothing more.You are also a non serious person contrary to your claims with all the rolling and laughing and are here for one single minded reason ie of Hijacking this thread.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 09 Jun 2011 21:43

What is the Indian State's duty to citizens?

The Ramlila Maidan massacre raised some questions in my mind about the responsibility of the Indian State. If the State causes harm to citizens through its action -- or through its inaction -- how can the citizen get redress? What is the due process of law? If there is such, why isn't anyone using it to claim compensation from the State?

Whose fault is this? Who gets punished so that such tragedies do not befall families and individuals again? The answer, so far as I can see, is that it is nobody's fault, and that nobody gets punished. Those who have lost life or limb, or their kin, are simply supposed to grin and bear it and chalk it up to fate.

This is no way to run a civilised nation. The Indian State is increasingly ingenious in its attempts to extract taxes from citizens -- but along with that comes a reciprocal obligation to ensure that it protects the same citizens from harm, provides them with basic infrastructure, and so on. But that part of the bargain does not seem to occur to the predatory State, not surprisingly because it was designed simply to squeeze the most taxes out of the public. Why do you think the chief bureaucrat in a district is called a Collector? What do you think his job was to collect?

The way the State recompenses citizens is whimsical and cavalier. The State failed to protect 170 citizens from being killed in Mumbai in 2008. I am not sure what the compensation was that was paid to those killed. But this I know: when several drinkers of illegal hooch in Kerala died of methyl alcohol poisoning, the generous State gave them Rs 5 lakh; whereas Major Sandeep Unnkrishnan who died fighting the terrorists on 26/11 got Rs 3 lakh.

In other words, who is to pay for the State's negligence or malice? Until the day comes that every bureaucrat and every politician weighs the personal cost to themselves of hurting citizens' rights, India cannot call itself a civilized nation. It remains a colonial predatory State, meant for the benefit of the few at the cost of the many.

Raises some important questions.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 09 Jun 2011 21:54

somnath wrote:
Dhiman wrote:Read the news
I happen to do that...Barring the point on Lokpal (where the good Baba himself is not sure what he means by "strong Lokpal - given his flipflops), which other "demand" in that 10 point list has been acceeded to? 1 out of 10 is now 90%?

Again back to bashing RD. Ah the joy of watching the psecs in massive takleef.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 09 Jun 2011 21:57

Manishw wrote:conveniently sidestepping all arguments about being optional good for people who cant be educated in English or properly in English

Unfortunately, you dont read the very positions that you support..This is what the good Baba said..

7. Educational curriculum in Bharatiya Languages - Curriculum and examinations of engineering, medical, agriculture should be made available in Bharatiye languages too and as fast as possible so that even a villager can get education properly instead of being deprived on the name of a foreign language(English) which we are using as the primary mode of education even after 64 years of independence. What a shame! We are not against english. But we must learn to respect our own languages first.

When China is trying to make English compulsary from primary school, when they are setting up new unis with 80-90% foreign faculty just to encourage students study exclusively in English, we go back to trying to dovetail higher education to local languages..Not build on our legacy strength in English and make that universal in all primary schools...Dont expect BR to know about the debates in the '50s around English and local languages while the IIXs were being set up, and conclusions drawn thereof - but the above is just common sense...Of course, how it impacts black money and corruption is, well, maybe requires some yogic maya to understand...

As Chandrabhan Prasad says, if there is one Goddess for the dalits, its the Goddess of English...One can extend it for all "backward" segments....

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 09 Jun 2011 21:58

somnath wrote:
Dhiman wrote:Read the news
I happen to do that...Barring the point on Lokpal (where the good Baba himself is not sure what he means by "strong Lokpal - given his flipflops), which other "demand" in that 10 point list has been acceeded to? 1 out of 10 is now 90%?

I have never watched seriously RD since I learn't yoga myself a long time ago, but I am thankful to him for putting such Psecs in massive takleef.

Very enjoyable to see them running like headless chickens.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 09 Jun 2011 22:00

somnath wrote:
Manishw wrote:conveniently sidestepping all arguments about being optional good for people who cant be educated in English or properly in English
Unfortunately, you dont read the very positions that you support..This is what the good Baba said..

7. Educational curriculum in Bharatiya Languages - Curriculum and examinations of engineering, medical, agriculture should be made available in Bharatiye languages too and as fast as possible so that even a villager can get education properly instead of being deprived on the name of a foreign language(English) which we are using as the primary mode of education even after 64 years of independence. What a shame! We are not against english. But we must learn to respect our own languages first.
When China is trying to make English compulsary from primary school, when they are setting up new unis with 80-90% foreign faculty just to encourage students study exclusively in English, we go back to trying to dovetail higher education to local languages..Not build on our legacy strength in English and make that universal in all primary schools...Dont expect BR to know about the debates in the '50s around English and local languages while the IIXs were being set up, and conclusions drawn thereof - but the above is just common sense...Of course, how it impacts black money and corruption is, well, maybe requires some yogic maya to understand...

Aha The CCP is the role model then

yogic maya=bash RD

. Great keep it coming

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 09 Jun 2011 22:39

Manishw wrote:I have never watched seriously RD since I learn't yoga myself a long time ago, but I am thankful to him for putting such Psecs in massive takleef. Very enjoyable to see them running like headless chickens.

I remember that the takleef is too much and hence someone wanted to disassociate the yoga from hinduism. This is all after the success of BR. BR is a phenomenon and that is the reason for such a massive upheaval in the mentally disturbed elite.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 09 Jun 2011 22:44

Seriously Somanth Garu, please stop posting on this topic further. You are only losing whatever credibility that you have gained here.

I feel sorry for all the knowledge you have but the implementation and the direction is way off..

And this Anna Team Vs Baba Team is exactly what Congress goons wants to happen. Instead of being united and fight against corruption we are differentiating among ourselves. Baba Team and Anna Team are together and have never disputed each other on any aspect of their struggle. But people like us, atlast even BRFites have drawn lines among themselves....congratulations...

And Somanth Garu, your post in response to the 10 point agenda is the complete ch*tiyapa response...you reminded me of Manish Tiwari.....please save your respect Saar...

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 09 Jun 2011 22:46

Venkarl wrote: And Somanth Garu, your post in response to the 10 point agenda is the complete ch*tiyapa response...you reminded me of Manish Tiwari.....please save your respect Saar...

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 09 Jun 2011 22:46

Manishw wrote: Aha The CCP is the role model then yogic maya=bash RD . Great keep it coming

Any isms even to criticise is not from India. Any examples have to be from someother country. Even swearing ism is a foreign one. These days every one in India uses facism to describe BJP, RSS etc.

What is India's rolemodel and growth models? fabian-socialism, marxism as thought there is no successful economy models in India prior to these worthies were born.

Religion - we have to use the word called secularism to define minority-apeasement while Hindutva is indian-form of secularism followed for ages. But the word itself vibrates the dothis and trousers.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 09 Jun 2011 22:49

^^ +1 Totally agree.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 09 Jun 2011 22:50

The saints are coming
Hindustan Times
June 09, 2011

The stage is set, the actors are ready. All we now need is the government to lift the curtains on the greatest midsummer’s show since it ran to a packed globe. New Delhi’s Boat Club lawns are no longer off limits, say the courts. Baba Ramdev is chaffing to unleash hordes of yogis on them. Let’s h
ope the government sees the merit in this naked display of power. A sea of well-preserved Hindu flesh going through the paces on a June afternoon is by far a greater show of India’s might than any Republic Day parade of creaky tanks.

‘Holy Ardha Vakrasan!’ the generals will exclaim, as they return to their war rooms to re-evaluate India’s incredible capabilities.

As for the intrepid Baba, he seems to be on the ball about graft. Humanity’s first recorded bribe was paid by an Indian — Indra was easily the most corrupt king the gods ever had or will.

The cure for a malaise as old as the Vedas must also be sought in them. It takes the genius of a Ramdev to unleash the power of yoga on sleaze.

Those of us who have neither had our palms greased nor twisted our bodies into crazy pretzels will, of course, watch the triumph of good over evil and cheer at the right time. But the show we must see. We’ve paid the cover charge many times over.

Yet the yogi will not exult over his victory. For he knows that the battle of the righteous is never done. The mighty warrior Krishna has promised to return every time dharma is beleaguered.

Sometimes as pig, sometimes as turtle. Why not as an army of sadhus?

http://www.hindustantimes.com/The-saint ... 07656.aspx

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 09 Jun 2011 22:55

devesh wrote:^^^

after some thinking, i've come to the conclusion that the hatred is directed at the fact that he is a sanyasi who wears saffron. if it was kewl TFTA white boy/girl, especially a girl wearing tank tops with ample cleavage and form fitting sporties with midriff exposed doing the Yoga, like we seen on Massa TV everyday, there wouldn't be any problem. in fact they would go out of their way to applaud and inculcate themselves with the TFTAs.....

Oh absolutely, no doubt about that. The only Hindu trait, whatever it may be, will be applauded and embraced by elites in India, only if it has some white mainstream following. In fact, Yoga itself would have been confined to those SDREs who practice it with or without the glamor, but for attractive white women taking to it. Now that Yoga is mainstream, there is a fraudulent attempt to divest it from its Hindu roots by many westerners and their Indian psec elite side-kicks; the best sophistry from that psec Kushwant Singh: Yoga may have Hindu origin but it has nothing to do with Hinduism, whatever the hell that means, but he ponificated in one of HT columns a while back.

Its not just Yoga, take any walk of life. Imagine an SDRE did what Bill Clinton did with a young girl old enough to be his daughter. You can bet that either he would have been beaten up physically in broad daylight, or dis-credited like what BR is undergoing. But yet, this pompous pervert Clinton can come any time to India, talk nonsense about his global climate initiative or why India needs to give Kashmir to TSP as he told an IIT alumni gathering in Chicago, and there will be rapt attention and fawning respect to shake his hand and be photographed with him.

krithivas · Post by **krithivas** » 09 Jun 2011 23:21

^^^
Listening to Sri Jaggi Vasudev yesterday (Vijay TV) who remarked that 400 years of British rule has etched slavery in the minds of many Indians. This slavery to fawn on anything "white" will take a few generations to pass but will pass ... maybe not in our generation. The good news is that there are many many Indians who realize this and are doing something about that.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 09 Jun 2011 23:22

Venkarl wrote:And Somanth Garu, your post in response to the 10 point agenda is the complete ch*tiyapa response...you reminded me of Manish Tiwari.....please save your respect Saar...

Stating facts always helps the inner Ch*t*y*p* come out. On other dhaaga, we call this Ch*t*y*p* as Pakistaniyat.. One only has to keep on stating the facts while keeping the feet firmly on ground. Lets see the story the way it panned out.. Just stating, please to draw your own conclusions..

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 9#p1107179

somnath wrote:
Manishw wrote:He does not need people going around asking him to be serious or pouring through documents etc.
The "common man" doesnt, but someone/people purporting to carry on "movements" to solve the issue need to...Is BR simply standing in line with millions of other people simply lamenting about black money? In which case, what was he negotiating secretly with the govt on? What indeed did he mean by saying that the "govt has accepted 99% of his proposals"? And of course, what was the fast about?

We were discssing the modus operandi and objectives of BR, not the "common man"...I am still at a loss on what is "this" that the good Baba wanted in order to not do the "fast", apparently 99% of of which was accpeted by the govt...

I keep going back to it - but compare this against the modus operandi /objectives of Arvind K and Co for Lokpal..They knew what they need to do, they had a draft (howsoever utopian) ready, their demands were clear, open and transparent...Aboive al, they achieved something tangible, a movement forward..

Or maybe, just maybe, the good Baba is attempting a live demonstration of how to bring transparency through a process of ambiguity and obfuscation and glib rustic talk! In the same vein as his live demostration to the differently oriented on specific asanas to cure the "disease" (I mean I assume he did his yoga while being cross dressed)

BTW..That armed militia thing came on live TV...

Interesting piece on the BR phenomenon by Dipankar Gupta...
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/story ... 40882.html

Reply:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p1107205

Atri wrote:
harbans wrote:harbans-ji that information is trivialy easily available a google hit away, why dont you take the lead?

Sanku Ji, you prove that point i made. After 29 pages of discussion, we are still a google click away from what specifics BR has been demanding? Ironic no?
Why so lazy, guys? or was it intentional?

http://bharat-swabhiman.com/en/baba-ram ... atyagraha/

The demands are arranged in order of priority..

1. Declare accounts of Indians in tax havens as national property - GOI must declare all tax haven accounts of Indian corrupts to be national property through an ordinance and later with enactment of a bill. This is a very easy step to execute and does not conflict with any foreign policy, treaty or agreement.

2. Declare stashing away black money in tax havens as national crime - GOI must declare the act of stashing away of black money in swiss banks as a ‘Rajdroh’ or national crime because it has led to disasters in our country. 883 people die every HOUR just because of malnutrition and hunger whereas corrupt people out there are carrying out scams worth lakhs of crores which could be used for the development of our nation. Such big scams are only because stashing away of money in swiss banks is very easy for the corrupt.

3. Death penalty and lifetime imprisonment for the corrupt - GOI must pass a law to enforce death penalty or lifetime imprisonment on people who are found to be guilty of corrupt practices. The only reason that corruption is so widespread today is that there is no punishment for the corrupt and they enjoy luxurious freedom inspite of putting the nation at stake.

4. Enactment of a strong Lokpal - The government must now enact a strong Lokpal which can control corruption in the country. Corruption is now a cancer for us and Lokpal is a great weapon against it. India Against Corruption is heading this movement and we give full support to them.

5. Setting up of fast track courts in all states to deal specially with corruption issues - The government needs to setup fast track courts in all the states so that punishing the corrupt becomes easy. Crores of cases are pending in courts at the moment which would take years to clear up. We need faster execution and stronger laws to deal with this cancer.

6. Removal of high denomination currency notes from the economy – Government should immediately recall high denomination notes from the economy to prevent internal black money formation. Today we have 100 lakh crores of black money circulating inside our economy and thats because Rs. 1000, Rs.500 notes make it easier for corrupt people to transport, carry and store large sums of money for purpost of illegal and corrupt dealings. These notes should be removed immediately. There is no use of these notes when 80 crore+ people in our country live on a daily income of Rs.20 and never get the luxury of even seeing a Rs.500 note.

7. Educational curriculum in Bharatiya Languages - Curriculum and examinations of engineering, medical, agriculture should be made available in Bharatiye languages too and as fast as possible so that even a villager can get education properly instead of being deprived on the name of a foreign language(English) which we are using as the primary mode of education even after 64 years of independence. What a shame! We are not against english. But we must learn to respect our own languages first.

8. Ban the Land Acquisition Act - This act was brought by the Britishers to loot us and what a shame that we still have this law and its also being used to loot the poor farmers till date who are the people providing and catering to the hunger needs of our nation. This agricultural loot needs to be stopped NOW!

9. Direct election of the Prime Minister - History has shown that indirect selection of Prime Ministers has only lead to political troubles because most of the time the PM is busy safeguarding his chair putting national interest at stake. Political instability and personal conflicts in parties lead to instability in the governance just because of this reason. So the PM should be directly elected by the people and should be directly accountable to the citizens of this country.

10. Enactment of a strong Public Service Delivery Guarantee Act - If any citizen is denied service by any govt official within a stipulated period of time then the concerned official will have to pay penalty in the form of money to the particular citizen on a daily/weekly basis. This will help to make execution of government offices faster and prevent laziness and bribery

Rebuttal of Everything but Lokpal
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 4#p1107294

somnath wrote:
Atri wrote:http://bharat-swabhiman.com/en/baba-ram ... atyagraha/

The demands are arranged in order of priority..
Fantastic - I hadnt seen all of this in one place before (not here either)..But anyways, if this is the list, I am surprised why the govt didnt either agree 100% or disagree 100% - what was that 1% left "in the air" - its so superficial that accepting everything in toto or the other way round, both could have been justified equally well...

Lets see..

1. Declare accounts of Indians in tax havens as national property - GOI must declare all tax haven accounts of Indian corrupts to be national property through an ordinance and later with enactment of a bill. This is a very easy step to execute and does not conflict with any foreign policy, treaty or agreement.
One, what is "national property"? To be liberal, lets assume that what he means is to "attach" the property/money...But hang on, you can attach the property/money of people you can identify, isnt it? Second, one has to prove that the money was acquired through "criminal" means for it to be attached...Third, the banks offshore need to be convinced to part with client info - something even the mighty US had trouble getting out of UBS in a very very small level...Its something that multilateral bodies like FATF have struggled with even for serious issues like terror funding trails and the like...And this is supposed to be "easy to execute"!!! The govt is supposed to attach monies whose ownership it doesnt know, whose location is not known, whose details are at the mercy of complex international financial treaties - I guess the only way to do that would be to invoke the spirits to give virtual imagery of the details..

2. Declare stashing away black money in tax havens as national crime - GOI must declare the act of stashing away of black money in swiss banks as a ‘Rajdroh’ or national crime because it has led to disasters in our country. 883 people die every HOUR just because of malnutrition and hunger whereas corrupt people out there are carrying out scams worth lakhs of crores which could be used for the development of our nation. Such big scams are only because stashing away of money in swiss banks is very easy for the corrupt.
What is a "national crime" again? Hmmm, and why is only stashing the money away in tax havens criminal, why not stashing it under one's bed? But lets let such small details pass...Seems that the good Baba and his advisors mix up two very different issues - corruption and black money...The former is a criminal offence, it involvves cheating or defrauding someone/public/govt...The latter is about not paying tax on certain income/txn that one is supposed to...Black money can be generated through criminal activities, but it can also be generated througg legal activities, like business and investments...But again, why bother with such practical niceties when rhetoric will do..

3. Death penalty and lifetime imprisonment for the corrupt - GOI must pass a law to enforce death penalty or lifetime imprisonment on people who are found to be guilty of corrupt practices. The only reason that corruption is so widespread today is that there is no punishment for the corrupt and they enjoy luxurious freedom inspite of putting the nation at stake.
Hmmm...Finally something that is objective and clear...But practical as a deterrent?! Well, lets not get into that..At least soemthing that expresses a clear POV..

5. Setting up of fast track courts in all states to deal specially with corruption issues - The government needs to setup fast track courts in all the states so that punishing the corrupt becomes easy. Crores of cases are pending in courts at the moment which would take years to clear up. We need faster execution and stronger laws to deal with this cancer
Mass of motherhood statements...There already are special "fast track" CBI (and some other) courts for major corruption cases...Need "faster execution and stronger laws" - what laws, what changes in execution? Again, the point has been done, so why bother with the minutiae of practical implementability...

6. Removal of high denomination currency notes from the economy – Government should immediately recall high denomination notes from the economy to prevent internal black money formation. Today we have 100 lakh crores of black money circulating inside our economy and thats because Rs. 1000, Rs.500 notes make it easier for corrupt people to transport, carry and store large sums of money for purpost of illegal and corrupt dealings. These notes should be removed immediately. There is no use of these notes when 80 crore+ people in our country live on a daily income of Rs.20 and never get the luxury of even seeing a Rs.500 note.
.Obviously proceeds from illegal transactions are ferried in trucks as 500 rupee notes, taken to some physical currency exchange and then shipped to Switzerland! Econ 99?

7. Educational curriculum in Bharatiya Languages - Curriculum and examinations of engineering, medical, agriculture should be made available in Bharatiye languages too and as fast as possible so that even a villager can get education properly instead of being deprived on the name of a foreign language(English) which we are using as the primary mode of education even after 64 years of independence. What a shame! We are not against english. But we must learn to respect our own languages first.
What can I say? Besides the absurdity of the proposal itself, how is it relevant to corruption or black money?

8. Ban the Land Acquisition Act - This act was brought by the Britishers to loot us and what a shame that we still have this law and its also being used to loot the poor farmers till date who are the people providing and catering to the hunger needs of our nation. This agricultural loot needs to be stopped NOW!
BAN the Act! And do what? Build India on thin air? Again, not clear on how banning this ACt will take care of corruption..

9. Direct election of the Prime Minister - History has shown that indirect selection of Prime Ministers has only lead to political troubles because most of the time the PM is busy safeguarding his chair putting national interest at stake. Political instability and personal conflicts in parties lead to instability in the governance just because of this reason. So the PM should be directly elected by the people and should be directly accountable to the citizens of this country.
??? This is supposed to be an implementable programme?

10. Enactment of a strong Public Service Delivery Guarantee Act - If any citizen is denied service by any govt official within a stipulated period of time then the concerned official will have to pay penalty in the form of money to the particular citizen on a daily/weekly basis. This will help to make execution of government offices faster and prevent laziness and bribery
Not sure how it prevents bribery, but a reasonable point...

All in all, a bunch of feel good statements interspersed with some really bizarre ones - and we are to take this as a serious "civil society engagement" exercise? Well people who do are obviously welcome to do so, but the sheer lack of thought to tackle the substantive issue is glaringly clear...

Further rebuttal of everything and declaring how Lokpal is only way ahead and saffron drama is phor rowdy rustic villagers who squat on charpaai and smoke gaay-chhaap beedi, instead of montecristo...

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p1107385

somnath wrote:
rohitvats wrote:You're whining like a loser - this is not doable and that is not doable and hence, let us not do it
Oh now, insisting that anyone looking to play politics answer to the same standards of accountability that we demand of politicians is "whining"? So the Navy Chief asks for 10 nuclear submarines, 4 CBGs and 50 MPAs along with a military alliance with the US and Russia and transit rights to Thailand via Myanmar, all to be able to defend India against China - someone points out the "bizarreness" of the idea, he is whining?!

Especially if the entire attempt simply lets the govt off the hook on the really tough questions..On the agenda that is unfinished for long...On the growth that is seemingly flagging...

Purely on the issue of corruption and black money - refer to my post above -there is a big laundry list of pending "reforms", that will tackle the very issuies at their hearts...Not my ideas, they have been around for a long time...Now is the time to press on the pressure on the govt to implement..But no, we shall rather have this tamasha whose message is this garbled rubbish...Allowing the govt some more time and space to dither on the decisiosn making..

Which is why the efforts of Arvind K and Co is refreshingly stark...They have insisted upon, and made a difference..The govt has had to take verifiable, concrete steps on Lokpal..They havent been able to obfuscate the issue behind saffron, RSS, thug et al...The reason? Arvind K and Co are in it for the purpose they state (I have heard Arvind K a few times in his younger days face-to-face - the passion for public service and sincerity showed through), not for political brand building...Hence, the message is more important - the messenger, essentially AH is a totem pole to get media attention...

But wait, another member of this "school of thought" had already pissed and dissed on white-topi wearing anna month ago who has neither teeth in his mouth nor hair on his head coming far away somewhere from village of MH and sitting in Jantarmantar for Lokpal bill.. How foolish of anna, hain ji? Bhy do we need kufr lokpal when we have TFTA democrajy, hain?

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1066320

sugriva wrote:
Pranav wrote:As per Dr Subramaniam Swamy, the outcome of 60-70 Lok Sabha seats was determined by EVM rigging. One cannot make such a sweeping claim that the Govt is legitimate. That the EVMs are riggable there is no doubt.
Also the effect of this whole hoo-haa over Lokpal Bill seems to be to delegitimize electoral politics and parliamentary democracy. A selection of the few by the few cuts into the heart of the Indian republic. Moreover it gives power to question every govt decision and suo-moto start investigations into alleged corruption. In effect this creates a "Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith" and has the power to term anybody and everybody who stands in its path as blasphemous. Ultimately who benefits. Going by those who stand behind the Jan Lokpal bill today, I have my doubts. So is this a process really to cleanse this country of corruption or turn over the keys of this country those who are amenable to outside pressure.

how doej the ishtory pan out now.. I can't wait onlee.. where ij my popcorn onlee..

Bhy did the mijjile misphyrre prematurely, hain?