Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 10 Jun 2011 10:57

ArmenT wrote:and the only reason I got interested in such stuff is because of Biggles books and Commando comics.

Oh yessss!

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 10 Jun 2011 11:02

Commando comics were awesome! They were small enough to stick between your notebooks too.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 10 Jun 2011 11:50

There was virtually nothing about the Jews or the Holocaust in my history classes. I learned about it when I was 12-14 from the school library - which was extensive for those days. Reading about WWII, the mass murder of Jews came into my line of sight as it were - and then I went deeper into various other books on this particular subject, including I think a TIME-LIFE series with pictures from WWII and the camps. I could not sleep after reading some of the stuff, seriously.

This triggered my interest in the Middle East. Having read quite a bit on the subject, and having engaged in virtually each and every single country in the Middle East, and with both Arabs and with Jews, I know, if it came to a choice, which side I would pick up a gun for.

This does not mean that Israel is some saintly state which does, or can do, no wrong. On the contrary, it has been specialising in clusterfu(kups in recent years, but hey, it's a democracy, its basic value system is in the right place, and it is trying its best to survive and thrive. And it has been doing, so far, a reasonably good job of it.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 10 Jun 2011 11:57

The first time I heard of Holocaust and its significance is when I read "While Six million died". There was hardly any reference to Holocaust but then forget events happening few thousand miles away, There is absolutely no reference to so many Holocaust that Indians suffered through the ages at the hands of <you know who>. To complain about mention of Jewish Holocaust is probably asking for much more. History that is taught in Indian schools is History that hardly happened.

Lot of us have not even seen a Jew in our life or have any idea of dominant Anti-Semitic feelings for Jews in Islam and Europe (before WW-2). For us even Hitler was some distant leader who caused WW-2 and killed Jews but nothing more than that.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 10 Jun 2011 12:03

VikasRaina wrote:The first time I heard of Holocaust and its significance is when I read "While Six million died". There was hardly any reference to Holocaust but then forget events happening few thousand miles away, There is absolutely no reference to so many Holocaust that Indians suffered through the ages at the hands of <you know who>. To complain about mention of Jewish Holocaust is probably asking for much more. History that is taught in Indian schools is History that hardly happened.

Lot of us have not even seen a Jew in our life or have any idea of dominant Anti-Semitic feelings for Jews in Islam and Europe (before WW-2). For us even Hitler was some distant leader who caused WW-2 and killed Jews but nothing more than that.

Absolutely, we in India are Holocaust deniers - deniers of the many Holocausts that we have suffered. Don't forget that the British era famines in which millions died were also deliberately engineered Holocausts.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 10 Jun 2011 12:06

devesh wrote:^^^^
we might score a self goal by that commentary, but in long term it's self defeating. we need to highlight to the world that Pak is India gone deracinated. we need to let the world know this is what India is like when we are totally deracinated.

and Pak itself needs to be reminded every now and then that they are actually Indians. historically, genetically, they are Indians and by trying to cut that off, they are only bleeding themselves....their trade/economy has depended on GV for thousands of years. they are India. they share language, food, clothing with Indian population. Punjab.

Saarjii, Pray tell us why do you want to restore the == when we all have been fighting to break this sinful comparison. Is Pakistan only India gone deracinated ? Is that the only thing that differentiates a Paki from Indian. I mean thos Indians who are deracinated are scheming to kill people in NY and London and Mumbai. they are slaughtering innocent people like animals and justifying the killing using some convoluted religious discourse.
Sorry I think the biggest self goal would be when we somehow relink ourselves back to Pakistan.

And no Pakis are NOT Indians. Just like we all were Africans once upon a time (Assuming the theory that all humans came out of Africa is correct) does not mean we still are Africans. Pakis were Indians but they stopped being one exactly on 14th Aug 1947.
They are part of Kabila and we have nothing in common with them.
Heck Some part of India shares language and food and culture with Bangladeshis or Sri Lankans or Western Euorpe. Does that mean They all are Indians ? Being Indian is not just food and dress and Language or being Punjabi.

Part of my "Never forgive, Never forget" is to remember that Pakis are not us. What we share with them is something we share with roaches and parasites..That is space on this earth.
I say Let Pakis be identified as wannabe murderous Arabs or ME or Turks or CAians or whatever they want to be but not Indians anymore. Never again.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 10 Jun 2011 16:20

@VikasRaina ^^^: "And no Pakis are NOT Indians." OT for Indo-Israel thread but do read this if you have not already:

http://www.hindustantimes.com/are-india ... 83154.aspx

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 10 Jun 2011 17:06

There is also a specific reason to concentrate on the Nazi atrocities on the Jews. Because at one stroke it then wipes out the other persistent Europe-wide and historical anti-Semitism. This when raised is typically sought to be deflected by specific narratives of "tolerance' of the Jews, but as in India it is the same tactic like crying out about individual "Arabs" who were positive in their attitudes to try and show that this was a society wide and group wide phenomenon.

Actually almost everything that was done on the Jews by the Nazis were attempted before - by the British, by the "French", etc. But more importantly many of these atrocities were actually copied from Islamists, and the history of repression on Jews in ME at Islamic hands is sought to be again whitewashed.

People do not study the core Islamic texts to see that genocide was equally the attitude of both the Romans as well as Islamics. While Romans made it political, Islamists made it a divine task. The "Holocaust" helps to concentrate all that history and transfer it neatly onto the shoulders of a defeated and mostly killed off group.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 10 Jun 2011 17:25

skumar wrote:Though the school system is local to states, the syllabus is more or less uniform. Not sure which school you went to where "they made sure we south Indians hated the north Indian Aryans. But nothing about the Holocaust." The only place I can think of is TN and even that is beginning to change.

I studied in KV, hence CBSE syllabus. But none of my friends in my circle who went to TN government schools or private schools ever hated North Indians. And I studied in more than one KV in Madras itself. If I would extrapolate my small sample set and generalize, I would say "no sir, we were not taught to hate".
Our syllabus was similar to Armen's; except that not much of South Indian history. Lots of information about our country comes from ACK comics and reading books/internet.

SRoy · Post by **SRoy** » 10 Jun 2011 17:25

brihaspati wrote:There is also a specific reason to concentrate on the Nazi atrocities on the Jews. Because at one stroke it then wipes out the other persistent Europe-wide and historical anti-Semitism. This when raised is typically sought to be deflected by specific narratives of "tolerance' of the Jews, but as in India it is the same tactic like crying out about individual "Arabs" who were positive in their attitudes to try and show that this was a society wide and group wide phenomenon.

Actually almost everything that was done on the Jews by the Nazis were attempted before - by the British, by the "French", etc. But more importantly many of these atrocities were actually copied from Islamists, and the history of repression on Jews in ME at Islamic hands is sought to be again whitewashed.

Specifically, Stalinist Russia.
Large scale killings of Jews took place during that period. Holocaust is a convenient diversion by Leftist historians to whitewash the role of the commies.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 10 Jun 2011 18:07

SRoy wrote: Specifically, Stalinist Russia.
Large scale killings of Jews took place during that period. Holocaust is a convenient diversion by Leftist historians to whitewash the role of the commies.

Stalin's purges of Jews were linked to the succession dispute - western capitalists would have preferred Trotsky to take over from Lenin.

ranjbe · Post by **ranjbe** » 10 Jun 2011 18:32

For someone who went to school in Mumbai in the 1950's, our history was based on a book by a Jesuit called Father Vincent, which I think had two chapers on Mughal history, three chapters on British rule in India (which was a trifling 150 years in Maharashtra) including WWI and WWII, and less than a chapter on the Marathas, Sikhs and other lower-class natives. I don't think the Holocaust was discussed.
I learned about the Holocaust from a Bene Israeli friend (Jews who had settled in Maharashtra and spoke Marathi), and his family.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 10 Jun 2011 18:44

^^^
till 8th grade in NCERT syllabus, there is no mention of Holocaust on Jews other than some passing mentions. the distinction between Christianity and Judaism is not even discussed or explained. consequently, when I first arrived in Massa land, I used to wonder what all the fuss about X/J was about. after all, they're all white skinned, and look alike....but thankfully, history was always interesting for me and I read up on it before I could make a fool of myself in some public forum....

I have to admit that we Indians, especially the Independence generation has an almost Romantic notion of a Hitler destroying the British Empire. there is much justification in us feeling like this b/c of our experiences with the British. there is a poem in Telugu, which tells how Hitler achieved what even Napoleon could not achieve (destruction of British power)....

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 10 Jun 2011 19:07

The thing is, why would Sharuck Khan and Rani Mukharji openly say, Hitler was their most admired person in the world? I don't believe they are antisemitic. They are just clueless ignorant Indians like I used to be. We tend to associate Hitler with "A strict disciplinarian" rather than a Genocidal maniac. The Chandra Bose fan club made sure that his association with the Nazis was not all that bad so I suspect that may also have a lot to do with keeping Indians ignorant about the true nature/horror of the Nazis.

Again, like someone mentioned we do not even want to acknowledge the atrocities of the Mughal period.

India is like a family that has incest issues in the past, but the family does not want to talk about it, The best thing is to just forget about it and move on and look forward. But then, few members within the household still discuss quietly and snicker along from time to time.

Unless India has a "Truth commission" like South Africa and confront these demons, its not going to go away. Its going to be there like an uncured sore.

Liberal Lefties of India do not believe ""Truth Alone Triumphs / Satyameva Jayate"". That is just some slogan for them to use to look good and wear a self righteous smug smile on their stinky face.

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 10 Jun 2011 19:27

There is a Bollywhat forum. This is primarily a Westerners Bollywood fan forum. Most of the participants are American or European bollywood fans. They discuss bolly movies here. Recently there was a discussion on the Bollywood movie called ""Dear Friend Hitler". Yes folks, someone in bollywood decided to make a movie on Hitler with all Indian actors playing the role of Germans including Hitler himself. Anupem Kher was originally to play the role of Hitler and he had accepted it, but after some outrage from some quarters he declined. But the movie was still made I believe. Raghuvir Yadav as Adolf Hitler and Neha Dhupia as Eva Braun.

The entire discussion can be found here

http://www.bollywhat-forum.com/index.ph ... =28593.100

This is a quote from a Jewish fan of Bollymovies. She correctly doesn't believe Indians/Hindus are Anti semtic or atleast SRK and Rani are not antisemtic.

"In that culture, evil is still evil and good is still good, but people grow up learning different things and assigning value in a different historical context. When watching films or reading filmstars' interviews, it is my right to decide NOT to adhere to that value scheme (and in the case of Hitler, I think we all do refuse to agree with Rani or SRK -- otherwise this topic wouldn't exist!), but isn't it also my duty to try to at least understand things that make no sense to me? Otherwise, how can I claim to be a learner about the culture which produces the movies I love? That culture is not evil, and it disapproves of murder as strongly as my own does. Therefore the mystery of this Hitler issue becomes even more puzzling. It also promises to reveal some crucial differences in the way the past is constructed in different societies.

In other words, don't you think, if Rani learned about Hitler the way you did, she would agree with you that calling him her idol is shocking, horrible, unbelievable? I fully and firmly believe that if she had learned about Hitler the way you had, she would never, ever, have answered the way she did. But obviously she DIDN'T learn about Hitler, or WWII, the way you did."

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 10 Jun 2011 21:01

skumar wrote:I went to school in Mumbai in the late 80s and can vouch that we were taught that 6 million jews were killed in the holocaust.

Oh come on! Did any Indian textbook even know how much a "million" was back then? It wasn't until a few years after the 1991 reforms started that American vernacular made an appearance.

Purush · Post by **Purush** » 10 Jun 2011 21:03

VikasRaina wrote: Saarjii, Pray tell us why do you want to restore the == when we all have been fighting to break this sinful comparison. Is Pakistan only India gone deracinated ? Is that the only thing that differentiates a Paki from Indian. I mean thos Indians who are deracinated are scheming to kill people in NY and London and Mumbai. they are slaughtering innocent people like animals and justifying the killing using some convoluted religious discourse.
Sorry I think the biggest self goal would be when we somehow relink ourselves back to Pakistan.

And no Pakis are NOT Indians. Just like we all were Africans once upon a time (Assuming the theory that all humans came out of Africa is correct) does not mean we still are Africans. Pakis were Indians but they stopped being one exactly on 14th Aug 1947.
They are part of Kabila and we have nothing in common with them.
Heck Some part of India shares language and food and culture with Bangladeshis or Sri Lankans or Western Euorpe. Does that mean They all are Indians ? Being Indian is not just food and dress and Language or being Punjabi.

Part of my "Never forgive, Never forget" is to remember that Pakis are not us. What we share with them is something we share with roaches and parasites..That is space on this earth.
I say Let Pakis be identified as wannabe murderous Arabs or ME or Turks or CAians or whatever they want to be but not Indians anymore. Never again.

Nicely put.
Agree with everything you wrote.
India - pak == is a stupid thing to do.

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 10 Jun 2011 21:18

I believe in the two nation theory. I believe we Indians and Pakistanis are two different people in terms of culture and values. Partition was the best thing to have happened to India. I can't thank Jinnah enough. We ought to be grateful to him and celebrate Jinnah Jayanti.

So are the Isralies and the Arabs. Two different values and culture.

These two pairs will never ever ever mix. No matter what the leftis have been smoking.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 10 Jun 2011 21:18

Manny wrote:The thing is, why would Sharuck Khan and Rani Mukharji openly say, Hitler was their most admired person in the world? I don't believe they are antisemitic. They are just clueless ignorant Indians like I used to be. We tend to associate Hitler with "A strict disciplinarian" rather than a Genocidal maniac. The Chandra Bose fan club made sure that his association with the Nazis was not all that bad so I suspect that may also have a lot to do with keeping Indians ignorant about the true nature/horror of the Nazis.

A few things: First, Hitler was a guy whacking the Brits (our enemy #!). We were for anyone who was against the Brits. Second, India (INC) gave refuge to so many Polish Jews who could not find asylum elsewhere. Third, We had so many holocausts perpetrated on us by invaders of races and religions, that Hitler's genocide of the Jews was a distant event whose extent only came out after Germany's defeat. Fourth, there is a lingering suspicion in the Indian psyche even today that 'genocides', 'pogroms', 'holocausts' are selective weapon words to be used against the enemies du jour of the West. The Bengal famine is not a 'genocide', the Jallianwala Bagh massacre was simply a misunderstanding. The Bangladeshi 'genocide' of 1970/71 was less important than an opening to China. The apartheid regime was an important bulwark against communism regardless of the fact that Black Americans were disproportionately represented in Vietnam. And so on.

In the Indian psyche IMVVHO, Hitler has become disconnected from what he did to the Jews and Gypsies (that be us). From a personal perspective, my father, uncles et al really admired Hitler but their reality was that Britain whom he was attacking, was not letting them into certain railway compartments (No dogs or Indians allowed) and what they heard was a broken German people rallying to his oratory (just the sound on the radio--no one understood German in my family). As a result, I grew with a kind of positive view of Hitler. Oh! and BTW, Stalin (the hero of our lefties) who probably killed as many or more people than his admirer Adolf who at one time called him "Hell of a fellow", was up their in my pantheon.

The first clues came when in 1961 I visited Isle de Goree in Senegal --it was the embarkation point for slavery in the new world and four years later in 1965 I went to Auschwitz, that I connected the dots....

Now I am sensitized to what the Holocaust means. But it should be remembered that Hitler killed millions of Gypsies too ('untermensch') in the same chambers who seem forgotten. I am also sensitive about the selective uses of genocide, pogrom, massacre etc. It is used by Western media against the current enemy.

Heard of the Balochistan pogrom anyone? Or the genocide against the Aborigines in Australia? What the Romanians are doing to the Romany? I won't even mention Pakistan and its Hindus, Christians and Sikhs.

OTOH, read everywhere about the Gujarat Pogrom...

We lack useful idiots on the other side.

JMT

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 10 Jun 2011 21:28

Sorry, I love the usual pap about there are other Holocausts around ..blah blah blah.

No No No! There have been other killings and mass murders that are very horrific. But the Holocaust stands on its own as IMO, the most horrific in world history.

You see, The Mughals may have invaded and killed a whole bunch of people, even miliions. Genghis Khan may have slaughtered people on his way to conquest, the crusades and so many other examples that are thrown around.

But you see, in almost all those cases they had a chance. A small chance if they had surrendered their land they could have lived or if they had even converted. Most oftem they fought for their country, for their land, against foreign rule and lost and got killed.

The Jews had nothing to surrender. They had no country, no money or whatever to have saved themselves or given to the aggressor and save themselves. This was not Jews who fought back and failed.. They were hurdled in train cars and thrown in ovens. 6 million over a couple of years. Systematically organized.. to ethnically cleanse them just for being them (Jews). And yes, Gypsies may have died as well, but they were not the primary target, they were just accessories included with the Jews. It does not mean their death is any less anymore than people who get murdered in my street.

So please don't try to white wash this horror as, this was just another mass murders like so many others out there. A moral relativists BS. No no No, there are no other comparable stuff, This is no Holocaust PR. This is freaking real if one is absolutely honest about it.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 10 Jun 2011 21:31

Cosmo ji,
good point about Stalin. I totally forgot about him. Hitler and Stalin are great romantic heroes in India. the Telugu actor turned politician, Chiranjeevi, has acted in two movies named "hitler," and "stalin," both of which were super hits....of course, he also acted in one called "Tagore."

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 10 Jun 2011 22:23

Manny wrote: But you see, in almost all those cases they had a chance. A small chance if they had surrendered their land they could have lived or if they had even converted. Most oftem they fought for their country, for their land, against foreign rule and lost and got killed.

Let us not compare instances of mass-murder and their relative horror, shall we? They both caused widespread death and there is no horror worse than this horror. Whether they had to give up honour or life is not a point for discussion. So kindly drop this line of topic? For some life is important, for some life without honour is worse than no life at all.

jmt

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 10 Jun 2011 23:04

The 6 million killed in the extermination camps and by the extermination squads in Eastern Europe were not exclusively Jewish. Rather they were a odd mixture of Gypsies, mentally retarded, certain other Slavic people and Jewish. But it has become fashionable in West to say 6 million Jews died.

This is similar to the quote that 20 million died under stalin. This ignores the fact that a majority of these 20 million died when adolf hitler and stalin fought over the vast plains of Eastern Europe. So whether 20 million should be attributed to stalin or to hitler is still open for discussion.

Adolf Hitler and Stalin were stark raving lunatics and murderous, no body can deny that. But in the entire North Atlantic region, from California to East Prussia, there was a racist undercurrent which considered everyone else to be savages or barbarians. It is just that as history is written by victors, Hitler and Stalin were vilified.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 10 Jun 2011 23:17

Cosmo: You bring good points. I believe some of the admiration of Hitler is because of the fact that several Indians earn for a strong and decisive leader. Like you correctly point out until we do not know the dots and connect them, the horror does not hit us. Hitler was a maniac and richly deserve being vilified. Contemporary figures are more vilified now than the historical figures. Here in maasa we have restaurants named after Genhiz Khan. I have talked to Americans about it, and they seem he did what was the norm in those days. I tried telling them not all wars were fought as savagely as he did.

Prasad: You end your post with "jmt". I share similar thoughts. A reasonable person should not compare the relative horror of deaths. Analyzing the reasons that led to the deaths is a different thing though.

Manny: Wow, I never realized you could write a post without slamming the "leftists".

UBanerjee · Post by **UBanerjee** » 10 Jun 2011 23:53

Pranav wrote:
SRoy wrote: Specifically, Stalinist Russia.
Large scale killings of Jews took place during that period. Holocaust is a convenient diversion by Leftist historians to whitewash the role of the commies.
Stalin's purges of Jews were linked to the succession dispute - western capitalists would have preferred Trotsky to take over from Lenin.

Actually, that may be a proximate cause; but anti-Semitism is very deeply rooted in Russia, much more overt than the several centuries in pre-Nazi Europe. This is the country that gave us the word "pogrom". One of the reasons Jewish intellectuals felt for the commie movement, only to have it turn on them as usual.

Christopher Sidor wrote: This is similar to the quote that 20 million died under stalin. This ignores the fact that a majority of these 20 million died when adolf hitler and stalin fought over the vast plains of Eastern Europe. So whether 20 million should be attributed to stalin or to hitler is still open for discussion.

That is not where the number comes from- the Soviets who died from Hitler's invasion are attributed to Hitler and comes to 20 million on its own. The number 20 million for Stalin comes from things like these:

Holodomor: Ukrainian genocide
De-Cossackization
De-Kulakization
The Great Purge
Gulag

Notice the terminology used. Also notice how rarely these events are ever talked about in the West or in India.

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 11 Jun 2011 01:02

Prasad wrote: For some life is important, for some life without honour is worse than no life at all.

jmt

Thats the whole point. In all those other cases they had a choice. The Jews were not even given that choice. The choice of living without honor over death. Some Jews could have chosen to live without honor over being burnt in the oven!

Thats what makes the Holocaust the evilest.

Duh!

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 11 Jun 2011 01:07

@Manny ^^^. I don't know if you are addressing me specifically but in the event you are, let me say this:

Every genocide, massacre or holocaust must be viewed through the eyes of the victims and the surviving kin (if any). To each of those victims whether they are the Wiyot of Humboldt, the Aborigines of Australia, the Hindus of Bangladesh in 1971 or the Jews of Europe, their fate is the worst horror. One should be careful about dismissing Gypsies who died as "just accessories included with the Jews". It does not lessen their pain of that of their kin to know they were not the 'primary targets'. To ask victims to see their personal tragedy in relative terms would be dismissive indeed.

I don't for a moment doubt the Holocaust visited on the Jews of Europe nor its horror and inhumanity. So there is no whitewash here, as I am sure there is none on your part with regard to the other victims of man's inhumanity to man.

Added later:

About choice and honor. When the hordes come for you, they don't usually offer tickets. The Wiyot, the Incas, The Mayans were given no choice. Small example here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiyot_people

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 11 Jun 2011 01:14

Cosmo,

I am not belittling all the other deaths. All deaths are bad, and children should be treated well and we all should be moral. Hope that covers most things that prevents anyone from attacking me that I feel otherwise.

The point was to counter the usual things I hear from some anti semites and anti Isralies and simply people who have not thought through this enough to dismiss the Holocaust as just another murderers that happens all the time.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 11 Jun 2011 01:40

Manny, for my part I hope stating that there is no whitewash here covers me from attacks too. Most Indians are surprised that there is something called anti-semitism. Read this post by Vick in 2002

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... f=13&t=330

But there is a larger point here: When we say "never again", we mean never again for anyone and everyone not just for ourselves. Yeah! and that will happen

. To each and everyone of us, the priority spreads outwards: me, ours, theirs..

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 11 Jun 2011 02:00

Cosmo_R wrote:Manny, for my part I hope stating that there is no whitewash here covers me from attacks too. Most Indians are surprised that there is something called anti-semitism. Read this post by Vick in 2002

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... f=13&t=330

But there is a larger point here: When we say "never again", we mean never again for anyone and everyone not just for ourselves. Yeah! and that will happen . To each and everyone of us, the priority spreads outwards: me, ours, theirs..

Thx Cosmo for that link. I am reading that article where the reporter asked "What is anti semitism". It makes sense yaar.. When many Indians think Christians and Jews are the same... how then would they know antisemitism?

It's true, the gripe I have with some Indians (Hindus) is not that they are antisemitic. They are not... It's just that they have been so indoctrinated in the left politics they are as anti Israelis as many antisemites. The leftist politics is not good. It can be immoral and corrupt hidden behind the cloak of "liberalism" and "progressive thought". Like most educated people from India, we become knee jerk liberal leftists by default. I know this, I used to be one. But now, I am cured of this disease. I am freaking born again!

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 11 Jun 2011 03:04

Manny wrote:
Prasad wrote: For some life is important, for some life without honour is worse than no life at all.

jmt
Thats the whole point. In all those other cases they had a choice. The Jews were not even given that choice. The choice of living without honor over death. Some Jews could have chosen to live without honor over being burnt in the oven!

Thats what makes the Holocaust the evilest.

Duh!

Choices were available initially out of Germany. It was with Poland that the ghettoing in and elimination started seriously and then basically exit was sealed off on all occupied territories. However, in many case of genocide of Jews in the past - also they were not given any choices. If Josephus and some other Roman sources are to be believed, Jews were often, and for a wide part of the Roman province in the near East, not given any choice. Especially the second siege of Jerusalem leading to fall of Massada.

The Hadiths on the other hand explicitly describe no choice given to many communities of Jews by the founding fathers of Islam. All "adult males" meaning post-puberty males were culled ceremonially - heads chopped off in a serial after being brought to the end of a ditch dug in the marketplace of "Medina" (originally a Jewish farming community named Yathrib), and even women were executed, although most were sold off as slaves and some used for pleasure of the Muslim soldiers.

In this sense one can say they were less "harsh" than the German Nazis who forbade sexual contact between the captive Jews and "pure races" who guarded or used them. But even this was not apparently always followed and there are many close parallels to historical Islamic treatment with that of the Nazis.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 11 Jun 2011 03:41

Manny wrote:
Cosmo_R wrote:Manny, for my part I hope stating that there is no whitewash here covers me from attacks too. Most Indians are surprised that there is something called anti-semitism. Read this post by Vick in 2002

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... f=13&t=330

But there is a larger point here: When we say "never again", we mean never again for anyone and everyone not just for ourselves. Yeah! and that will happen . To each and everyone of us, the priority spreads outwards: me, ours, theirs..
Thx Cosmo for that link. I am reading that article where the reporter asked "What is anti semitism". It makes sense yaar.. When many Indians think Christians and Jews are the same... how then would they know antisemitism?

It's true, the gripe I have with some Indians (Hindus) is not that they are antisemitic. They are not... It's just that they have been so indoctrinated in the left politics they are as anti Israelis as many antisemites. The leftist politics is not good. It can be immoral and corrupt hidden behind the cloak of "liberalism" and "progressive thought". Like most educated people from India, we become knee jerk liberal leftists by default. I know this, I used to be one. But now, I am cured of this disease. I am freaking born again!

You're in good company. Narayana Murthy said that when he went to Paris, he became an avowed leftist and when he went to Bulgaria, he became an avowed rightist. Same thing that Prince Sihanouk of Cambodia did

I speak for myself: I am a fiscal conservative and a social liberal. Sound easy ? Well, no. Difficult to find parties with the same 2 dimensional view of things. It's always Manichean. People who think your private life is your own also want to tax you to death and redistribute your ill-gotten gains

and have a romantic view of chaos.

People who think your private life is their business think you should be rewarded for your individual efforts and dislike chaos (including any they perceive in your personal life).

The 'young' in India are surprisingly conservative. The leftist/rightist gene always skips a generation. Just look at what happened to the commies in WB and Kerala.

Added later: "When many Indians think Christians and Jews are the same... how then would they know antisemitism? "

So why don't Jews and Israelis make the effort to convince Indians to think otherwise: Judeo-Christian <> Christians? Maybe it's time for for the Children of The Book to say : Different Chapters, Different Appendices?

Don't leave the onus on those think they are the same.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 11 Jun 2011 06:40

UBanerjee wrote: Actually, that may be a proximate cause; but anti-Semitism is very deeply rooted in Russia, much more overt than the several centuries in pre-Nazi Europe. This is the country that gave us the word "pogrom". One of the reasons Jewish intellectuals felt for the commie movement, only to have it turn on them as usual.
...

There was a time when the Polish empire covered a significant part of Western Russia and Ukraine - the dissolute and corrupt Polish Monarchs used to outsource tax collection to Jewish agents, which led to resentment against Jews, which then led to the first Cossack uprisings.

That is not where the number comes from- the Soviets who died from Hitler's invasion are attributed to Hitler and comes to 20 million on its own. The number 20 million for Stalin comes from things like these:

Holodomor: Ukrainian genocide
De-Cossackization
De-Kulakization
The Great Purge
Gulag

Notice the terminology used. Also notice how rarely these events are ever talked about in the West or in India.

That's a good list. Bolshevism was backed by western capitalists, and the majority of the victims of Bolshevism were not Jews.

Sadler · Post by **Sadler** » 11 Jun 2011 07:01

Cosmo_R wrote:A few things: First, Hitler was a guy whacking the Brits (our enemy #!). We were for anyone who was against the Brits. Second, India (INC) gave refuge to so many Polish Jews who could not find asylum elsewhere.

I came to the same conclusion re: Hitler and favorable comments re: him among Indians. One, he fought the brits, who were slaughtering Indians. I dont think the full impact of the holocaust was visible to these Indians.

I did not know that the INC provided refuge to polish jews. I want to be clear that i am not casting aspersions on that claim. I have not heard of it before. Can you provide me some links re: this topic. Again, pleeeeaaase understand that I am not asking for links with any ulterior motive. simply for my "gyaan." TIA.

Cosmo_R wrote: Every genocide, massacre or holocaust must be viewed through the eyes of the victims

I completely agree. The one thing I will add is that the holocaust was perhaps the first "mechanized" attempt at genocide (as opposed to manual). The sheer numbers and short duration made it (at least IMO) a more intense genocide than any preceeding or succeeding it. In saying this, I want to emphasize what Cosmo said: Each group of victims must have felt that their own tragedy was in its own way unique; the jews of the holocaust being no exception.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 11 Jun 2011 07:29

Sadler wrote,
I did not know that the INC provided refuge to polish jews.

There was a proposal at the AICWC at that time from one individual, but was quashed or dropped quietly as far as I know. Even this individual later on took an opposite position publicly. Would be interesting to see if anyone has ref of actual implementation.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 11 Jun 2011 08:25

It was JLN who placed a proposal in the AICWC about allowing a limited framework to provide shelter for persecuted Jews - which was defeated in voting within the committee. However, JLN's subsequent role in the initial stages of formation of the state of Israel was far from sympathetic.

Bose hints in a letter of complaint to JLN, that the motion by JLN was defeated at AICWC possibly at the behest of MKG. Much has been made of Bose's supposed comment that JLN's proposal would make India an asylum country for Jews based on supposed "realpolitik" considerations, but researchers report that in private Bose was highly sympathetic towards the Jews and their plight.[ Getz]

Here is possibly some justification of Bose's impression of Gandhiji's views on Jews and Israel :

A Non-Violent Look at Conflict & Violence
Article Written on November 20, 1938
Published in Harijan on November 26, 1938

But my sympathy does not blind me to the requirements of justice. The cry for the national home for the Jews does not make much appeal to me. The sanction for it is sought in the Bible and the tenacity with which the Jews have hankered after return to Palestine. Why should they not, like other peoples of the earth, make that country their home where they are born and where they earn their livelihood?

Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French. It is wrong and inhuman to impose the Jews on the Arabs. What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct. The mandates have no sanction but that of the last war. Surely it would be a crime against humanity to reduce the proud Arabs so that Palestine can be restored to the Jews partly or wholly as their national home.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 11 Jun 2011 08:41

Manny wrote:I know this, I used to be one. But now, I am cured of this disease. I am freaking born again!

That is what Texas will do to people.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 11 Jun 2011 08:43

Read Lord Bullock's masterpiece," Hitler and Stalin" for perhaps the definitive book on the two and how they both rose to power tracing their rise from childhood.Hitler as a young man in Vienna was obsesed with the influx of refugees into the city from the east,which affected the fortunes of the Geman population.It had a lasting effect on him.Frustrations at not becoming an architect,a failure as an artist and the betrayal of WW1 and Germmany' humiliation at Versailles,honed and strengthened his resolve to make Germany a "great power" and roll back the iniquities heaped upon it by other nations,where he thought that the Jews influenced policies. He wanted to cleanse Germany (and the captured territory) of Jews and "inferior races" in his warped policies.The first plan was to expel them to Madagascar (!) but then "lebensraum" demanded that the east be cleansed of Communism (his bitter political enemiey in Germany) and Russia/Siberia be the destination of the Jews.When he tasted defeat in Russia,the furnaces and gas chambers of the concentration camps were put into action in full measure.

Hitler was not the permanently frothing madman as depicted by the west-the disciplined German pople would never had followed such a leader, but a cold-blooded ruthlss single-minded fanatic,with extraordinary oratoical skills who could mesmerise an entire nation with his speeches,and until the outbreak of WW2 and the first taste of defeat in Russia,was hailed as a messiah who rescued Germany from the ingominious years of crisis following defeat in WW1.

Both the Jews and Palestinians have lived in Palestine/Israel from time immemorial.A two-nation solution is th only option with both of them needing to agree upon the boundaries.For this they need otuside help to bring them closer to agreement.Easier said than done!

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 11 Jun 2011 08:44

http://www.polishconsulate.com/about.html

There were six thousand Polish war refugees, mainly women and children in India during the period of 1942-1948. And while their stay in India was financed by the Polish Government in exile, it is the warmth and friendship of the people of India that these people have taken with them throughout their lives. We have the Association of Poles from India very actively participating in preserving the places of Polish national memory in India .

The Consulate General of Poland in Mumbai was opened in 1933. Our first Consul Dr. Eugeniusz Banasinski held the post till 1944 and during that time large number of Polish refugees fleeing the horrors of war and persecution in the Soviet Union were directed to safe locations in India.

It was the prime role of the Consulate of Poland to assist in the operation of providing shelter and certain life stabilisation for these thousands of people, in the safe camps in Kolhapur and Jamnagar. There are still traces of Polish presence in Mumbai from those times. It was only a few weeks ago that 11 graves of Polish Nationals were located at the Sewri cemetry.

About 1000 or so of these were Jews.

UBanerjee · Post by **UBanerjee** » 11 Jun 2011 10:16

The upshot of all of this is that India should support those nations and civilizations which share interests and values with it and Israel is such a nation.

There is small profit and much idiocy in denying such bonds because of sanctimonious puffery. Perhaps we might find time to lecture the rest of the world as well most of which is far less compatible with ourselves.

It's very revealing how these standards only apply to dealing with this single nation, and not the many others we have intimate dealings with. Remember the shrill protests of the left when we were intimate with the Soviet Union? No*? Neither do I, despite perpetrating crimes orders of magnitudes worse than Israel. The same applies to the US today (although I suspect those who denounce ties with Israel would denounce these ties as well).

*excluding, of course, the fratricidal conflicts driven by slavish adherence to their differing masters abroad