The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 10 Jun 2011 18:47

Hats off to INC, for it learns lessons from History. It allowed LK Advani to go on the ratha yatra; and lost power. Ever since, it nips things in bud. No yatras or morchas are allowed to cross the critical threshold to catch public's imagination and eventual upset in the elections. INC unleashes its attack dogs and peace doves to offer stick and carrots.

The entire thing is political. Anybody who thinks this is about corruption or black money is naive in my opinion. Singha identified correctly what BJP should do. If BJP has to be relevant it has to do exactly that.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 10 Jun 2011 19:05

Yoga Guru's Hindu Radical Links Irk Indian Christians

http://www.christianpost.com/news/yoga- ... ans-51038/

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 10 Jun 2011 19:10

somnath wrote:But then, that is hardly as exciting an activity as serial abuse towards INC, Commie, Muslims, Maoists, Swami Agnivesh, Arundhati Roy, Shekhar Gupta, Page 3 and every single strawman target that can be invented..

Ah now these have become strawmen onlee.No threat .Just hallucinations.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 10 Jun 2011 19:18

Ah! Lets turn a clean page and let us take up all the "specifics" - including how our "elected" representatives come towards "specifics".

Here is something for a start from the parliamentary debates about the 72nd amendment:
http://parliamentofindia.nic.in/ls/lsde ... 129201.htm

02.12.92 *t16
CONSTITUTION (SEVENTY-SECOND AMENDMENT) BILL
(Insertion of new Part IX) As Report of the Joint Commitee and Joint Committee)

SHRI MANI SHANKAR AIYAR (Mayiladuturai): Mr. Chairman, Sir, this is a red letter day in the life of our country, a red letter day in the life of our Parliament and a red letter day in my life because from the 10th of December, 1987 which, almost to this day, was five years ago a group of District Magistrates meeting the then Prime Minister stated unambiguously that it was impossible to continue the administration of this country on the basis of the kind of bene violent dictatorship of I.A.S officers that takes place at the grassroots level, I have been personally associated with the evolution of the ideas which now find concrete expression in the 72nd and the 73rd Constitution (Amendment) Bills placed before this House and because I have been associated with this exercise in a variety of persons, as a civil servant, as a Member of Parliament and as Member of the Select Committee, I can only express, on the one hand, my joy at what appears to be the culmination of this present endeavour of five years, which in itself is the culmination of an endeavour that goes back at least 50 years and at the same time my regret that when we are at the brink of the single most important systemic change in our Constitution and our method of governance, we should have such a thin attendance here in this House and an even thinner attendanace in the Press Galleries. If we, as a Parliament and the watchdogs of Parliament were to devote as much attention to constructive endeavours as is devoted to destructive endeavours, perhaps we will sooner be able to realise our goal of a great and prosperous India.

So
(1) you can start off with a "group" of individuals "protesting" "bene -violent dictatorship" [typos obviously on OCR

] [no mention of course whether this consisted of a detailed "specifics" laden bill-ready manifesto] meeting the chosen ruler
(2) then the "idea" "evolves" [what evolution? they should have been starting off with a finished product with specifics to be debated in the first place!]
(3) you can then take 5 years to "evolve" this idea
(4) the same individual can work on it as members of different professional and political bodies, no problem, no issue about conflicts of interests etc.
(5) even then when you do "evolve" it, you may need to prevent discussion on dissenting notes [see second page in the link - the protest from Anil Basu] even within the "evolution" committees
(6) then when the fruits of the five year long evolution takes place, which apparently is one stage in a 50 year long evolution - there is no need to show interest from the zealous sole claimants of the right to hog all "protest" space - by being present in large numbers to vote.

Surely the specifics were lacking in the first place? it was an "idea" to start off with onlee!

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 10 Jun 2011 19:18

SwamyG wrote:
The entire thing is political. Anybody who thinks this is about corruption or black money is naive in my opinion. Singha identified correctly what BJP should do. If BJP has to be relevant it has to do exactly that.

Yes the operative word is in your opinion.Many people think that RD is serious about rooting out corruption,

munna · Post by **munna** » 10 Jun 2011 19:24

SwamyG wrote:Folks in India: What does a common man think about all this? What is the public sentiment in the rural, semi-urban and urban areas? I heard in the South there is not much public discussion on this among aam admi.

Except Karnataka I agree with limited extent of shake up in South. However, response amongst semi urban and rural areas of cow belt is heartening. After his Anshan I have firmly come to believe that caste has played a greater role in retarding the so called 'right' than any Chankian strategy on part of Pseudo Lib Lunatic brigade aka khadi chaddis.

Common man and I mean common man with access to vernacular dailies and chaupals/sabhas is pro baba Ramdev. Mainly because he is seen to be a backward upstart who has come to challenge the established order and that too by doing some useful social work. He is being looked upon as a male version of Mayawati who has tried to craft a rainbow coalition of masses to drive national agenda as per his own beliefs. The midnight action has definitely dented the government's image particularly when contrasted with the soft treatment to Kasmiri separatists like Gilani or Maoist sympathizers such as Sen.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 10 Jun 2011 19:25

Sushupti wrote:Yoga Guru's Hindu Radical Links Irk Indian Christians

http://www.christianpost.com/news/yoga- ... ans-51038/

Start off with we support anti corruption and then go on to banging hindus.Standard Operating procedure.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 10 Jun 2011 19:30

Sanku wrote: Corruption is the essential system on which DiE power is based. This point MUST be understood.

Very Important point.It is not merely a way to enrich oneself but to also keep the unwashed in mental slavery.Huge tool for the imperialists.
Needs a lot of attention.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 10 Jun 2011 19:34

Manishw wrote:
Sushupti wrote:Yoga Guru's Hindu Radical Links Irk Indian Christians

http://www.christianpost.com/news/yoga- ... ans-51038/
Start off with we support anti corruption and then go on to banging hindus.Standard Operating procedure.

An old British strategy - when the INC started asking for independence they were painted a Hindu outfit, and the Muslim League was propped up. Now, when there is a second struggle of independence, Hazare and Ramdev become "RSS agents" for the INC.

Vadivel · Post by **Vadivel** » 10 Jun 2011 19:37

munna wrote:
SwamyG wrote:I heard in the South there is not much public discussion on this among aam admi.

Don't know about other states, but TN packed and sent MK for corruption. TN had already acted even before all this started, only that it needed couple of years to wait for the election.

jimmyray · Post by **jimmyray** » 10 Jun 2011 19:39

I am not an expert on this topic but writing my views as a common man:
Over the years it seems that incidence of big corruption has been increasing (or awareness is increasing because of more exposure through media) and now corruption appears to be plaguing the very fabric of our society. IMHO the acceptability and tolerance in the society for corruption and corrupt people has also by and large increased over the last two decades. Most of us perhaps know people who are corrupt but we tolerate them and perhaps even have good relations with them. This tolerance for corruption also does not mean that most of us like or support corruption. Moreover there is a general perception that society leaders were not doing much and in fact most of these responsible people of our society are apparently part of the problem rather than being the solution. Therefore when people like BRD and AH started a movement against corruption they got very good support.
People who tacitly or directly support or approve of corruption or are themselves corrupt supposedly have various reasons including:
1)Poverty e.g. poor constable types; clerks
2)Part of being a corrupt system and left with very little choice e.g. being in PWD department; Coal mafia
3)Pure greed; e.g. politician and tycoons types
4)Quick and easy money little risk
5)Have little patience - Want to get their work quickly without hassles or avoid red tape
6)Other reasons (miscellaneous): please add

Broadly, I think these causes have economic and moral components. Economic component can be targeted by legislations and other measures (e.g. better pay scale for govt. servants, reducing tax, stricter laws against corruption). But I think this will have only a limited impact. IMO if our society becomes more Dharmic (Please don’t misinterpret it as religious) and we can teach our younger generation about Dharma then in the long run it would have a more profound effect. Obviously this social change cannot happen in short term and has to be a long term project. May sound utopian and simplistic but in my experience best solutions are always simple.
I am ready for a bashing :d

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Jun 2011 19:41

Raghavendra & Arjun,
Am adminstering warnings for your gratitious remarks on Bengalis. Don't do that again.

Others, Next one disparaging any region will be banned instantly no warnings. Kapiche!(Understood?)

Thanks, ramana

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 10 Jun 2011 19:59

IMHO Harbans and some others were pointing out that there is a definite difference between denigrating "Hinduism" versus political gimmickry. Most Indians would agree that its great to have our solid civilizational values shape public life and ethos. See this article for example (although the author is a practicing Buddhist):

'Baba' black sheep

Anna Hazare has better credentials to create change as far as his professed ideas and track-record of work are considered, as a lifelong social activist without any mystagogical pretensions.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 10 Jun 2011 20:01

Balkrishna cleared of fake passport charge

http://www.myrepublica.com/portal/index ... s_id=32183

As expected ELM skips the news.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 10 Jun 2011 20:07

Carl wrote:IMHO Harbans and some others were pointing out that there is a definite difference between denigrating "Hinduism" versus political gimmickry. Most Indians would agree that its great to have our solid civilizational values shape public life and ethos. See this article for example (although the author is a practicing Buddhist):

'Baba' black sheep

Anna Hazare has better credentials to create change as far as his professed ideas and track-record of work are considered, as a lifelong social activist without any mystagogical pretensions.

"mystagogical"? will not that apply to Gandhiji in a big way too? Again his collected works are available online. Look at volume 61 for example. So isnt this all dependent on which side of the political spectrum one stands? The same set of rules for tarring feathering should apply.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Jun 2011 20:09

Hats off to Anna Hazare for this one!!!

Admit Digvijay Singh to Mental Asylum: Anna Hazare

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Jun 2011 20:12

ramana wrote:Raghavendra & Arjun,
Am adminstering warnings for your gratitious remarks on Bengalis. Don't do that again.

Others, Next one disparaging any region will be banned instantly no warnings. Kapiche!(Understood?)

Thanks, ramana

Raghavendra I see you have 2 warnings already and next one would send you to collers. I suggest you aplogise on this thread if you want to stay. If not I will issue the warning.

ramana

Arjun,
Warning issued.

ramana

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 10 Jun 2011 20:14

Raul Baba left last night for Zug via Dubai. What panic over Sardinia.

Now Sonia has buzzed off to Milan by Jet Airways enroute to Zug in Switzerland to fix her accounts.

http://twitter.com/#!/Swamy39

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 10 Jun 2011 20:20

Carl wrote:
Anna Hazare has better credentials to create change as far as his professed ideas and track-record of work are considered, as a lifelong social activist without any mystagogical pretensions.

Why this propensity to compare who is better or not.I don't know much about Anna and certainly he doesn't seem to be an as effective as RD till now in terms of bring corruption as an issue on the indian stage , however I neither compare or degenerate him.Am just watching him and wait for things to unfold.. Let everybody do things as they see fit or is that asking for too much?

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 10 Jun 2011 20:20

Manishw wrote:
SwamyG wrote:
The entire thing is political. Anybody who thinks this is about corruption or black money is naive in my opinion. Singha identified correctly what BJP should do. If BJP has to be relevant it has to do exactly that.
Yes the operative word is in your opinion.Many people think that RD is serious about rooting out corruption,

Unlike others I do not know what is in the minds of Baba or Anna. I will give them the benefit of doubt and consider them to be honest to begin with and that they want to make India a great nation. That is where I start, but then the particular exercise is one step in the direction, and that is what it is a purely political action. Calling it political in nature does not bring it down in any way. In democracy, peaceful and political way is the way to go about. INC sees this purely as political in nature. And I doubt all politicians, even BJP ones, are all clean. INC & BJP have a dangerous tie up with the business. Sometimes the parties control the business-men, sometimes the business-men control the parties.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 10 Jun 2011 20:20

Carl,
that post is written from one particular strand of Buddhist thought in mind. There are other schools of thought that do not entirely agree with the school he is quoting here. Moreover, active involvement in politics to serve certain "higher purposes" (highly debated even within), and militancy as well as intolerance when required have never been very far from the Buddhist thought. So even the self-righteous postulation of one particular philosophical strand to judge the "Baba" is disingenuous.

Further from BR's perspective, "renunciation" may not exactly coincide with what one particular Buddhist school thinks of as "renunciation". By the way, the very sarcastic tone within the article destroys all the pretension of "vipassana" isn't it?

But I thought we were supposed to move away from dissecting the "Baba" and see to specifics of "workable" proposals or methods of achieving such specifics?

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 10 Jun 2011 20:21

Sushupti wrote:Raul Baba left last night for Zug via Dubai. What panic over Sardinia.

Now Sonia has buzzed off to Milan by Jet Airways enroute to Zug in Switzerland to fix her accounts.

http://twitter.com/#!/Swamy39

The Mainos have been conspicious by their absence.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 10 Jun 2011 20:26

SwamyG wrote:. INC sees this purely as political in nature. And I doubt all politicians, even BJP ones, are all clean. INC & BJP have a dangerous tie up with the business. Sometimes the parties control the business-men, sometimes the business-men control the parties.

Agree no sympathies for any political party whether BJP or any other but want to wait and watch before commenting for any political leanings from RD in a true sense.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 10 Jun 2011 20:29

Munna ji: Thanks for the reply. I was not looking purely in terms of shake-up. I wanted to know the extent Ramadev captured public imagination. Gandhi had almost the entire country behind him, he could become PITA for British only because he knew he had the moral and public support. While we BRFite elite might attribute theories and CT on Anna, Ramadev, INC, Rahul, MMS, Sonia, BJP, RSS.....what matters is the national sentiment. So if I were to pick 10 random people from a street and ask him or her, "what do you think about Ramadev and his movement?"; what would be their answer. Reading your post it looks like you are heartened. That is good enough for me

Sometimes in this small inter-connected World, people can still be disinterested of certain national events.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 10 Jun 2011 20:39

brihaspati wrote:Carl,
that post is written from one particular strand of Buddhist thought in mind. There are other schools of thought that do not entirely agree with the school he is quoting here. Moreover, active involvement in politics to serve certain "higher purposes" (highly debated even within), and militancy as well as intolerance when required have never been very far from the Buddhist thought. So even the self-righteous postulation of one particular philosophical strand to judge the "Baba" is disingenuous.

Though my knowledge is pretty shallow compared to yours, B Ji, Renunciation in Buddhism, Hinduism and even Sikhism and Jainism has different connotations and even among Buddhists and Hindus as you pointed out there are many schools of thought.This article seems to be more of RD bashing rather than thought behind it.It just hides behind a particular Buddhist school.

brihaspati wrote: Further from BR's perspective, "renunciation" may not exactly coincide with what one particular Buddhist school thinks of as "renunciation". By the way, the very sarcastic tone within the article destroys all the pretension of "vipassana" isn't it?

But I thought we were supposed to move away from dissecting the "Baba" and see to specifics of "workable" proposals or methods of achieving such specifics?

Exactly but all this is lost on people hellbent on smearing RD's anti corruption stance by degenerating Hinduism.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 10 Jun 2011 20:46

Sonia should be quizzed about 2G scam, CVC row

B Raman
The assumption that Sonia Gandhi can do no wrong has to be challenged by the public, the media and the political class, says B Raman

Sonia Gandhi can do no wrong.

That seems to be the basic assumption in the current debate on the various controversial decisions taken by the government of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh since it was formed after the elections of 2009.

These include decisions related to the questionable functioning of the ministry of telecommunications or the wrongful appointment of someone facing a probe to the post of the chief vigilance commissioner.

In all the debates in public -- whether in the media or by political parties -- the focus has been on the role of the prime minister, other concerned ministers and bureaucrats. I watched with interest the debate on various TV channels about the adverse judgment of a bench of the Supreme Court in the case regarding the procedure followed for the appointment of PJ Thomas as the chief vigilance commissioner.

The eminent people who participated in the debates, as well as the TV anchors, focussed only on the role of the various personalities in the government from the prime minister downwards.

Not one of them mentioned even in passing the possible role of Sonia Gandhi -- as the leader of Congress party -- in these controversial decisions. Even the spokespersons of opposition parties, including the Bharatiya Janata Party, did not mention her name in their interventions.

Does this mean all these controversial decisions were taken only by the government, with the Congress leadership playing no role in it? Any objective analyst would find it difficult to accept this.

We have been subjected to a peculiar system of governance since 2004 where real power seems to be wielded by Sonia Gandhi in her capacity as the head of the Congress party.

There has been an unseen but unquestioned power which has been exercising a compulsive influence on decision-making in important matters. This compulsive influence is quite evident in the case of the appointment of the chief vigilance commissioner.

Whether in matters related to his appointment or the defence of his appointment before the Supreme Court, everyone from the prime minister downwards has been acting as if they were doing so at the instance of an invisible force that could not be resisted. Such an invisible force could be only that of Sonia Gandhi.

She has been conducting herself as a neutral, disinterested bystander, who had nothing to do with any of these decisions. She has not spoken on any of these decisions in any great detail, nor has she been questioned.

Everyone, including the media and even the opposition, has been behaving as if she is like the British monarch, above and beyond all controversies. Hence, she cannot be questioned about her role in them.

If one has to find out the real truth behind the recent controversies, it is as important to probe her role in them as it is to go into the role of others. The assumption that Sonia Gandhi can do no wrong has to be challenged by the public, the media and the political class.

She must be made to face the fire of criticism and questioning like any other leader. She should no longer be treated as if she is a morally superior person whose good faith and integrity have to be implicitly accepted.

It is important for the Joint Parliamentary Committee -- now being constituted to probe the 2G scam -- to summon her and question her in detail about the various controversies. It is equally important for her role in decision-making to be debated in Parliament, in the media and elsewhere. She should herself welcome a greater public focus on her role and influence in decision-making.

http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 110304.htm

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 10 Jun 2011 21:02

Shaardula and Dilbu: Hope this eases your takleef. It does ease mine, I too was uncomfortable with the words "arms", "militia" ityadi.

We'll fight corruption with love, not war, says Indian guru

A charismatic yoga guru has pledged to train his followers in self-defence and traditional martial arts but says they will never take up arms to fight India's endemic corruption.

News reports on Wednesday said the guru was planning to arm thousands of supporters to block police action to disrupt his fast, but his office denied it.

''We neither support nor intend to take the law in our hand. We don't mean either training of guns, bombs or practice of killing someone or being violent at any point of time,'' a statement said on Thursday.

The statement added that the guru meant only that he would train his followers in traditional martial arts to defend themselves better.

Interesting to see a AP item carried by a foreign newspaper having the positive or neutral tone about the corruption protest and Ramadev. I googled and spent 2 mins on this issue, and none of the desi newspaper have this tone on the "arms" issue. I assume some of them carried clarifications. But the damage has been done, and the talking points in the media have been set. This is what INC is good at. If onlee it used for the good of nation.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 10 Jun 2011 22:12

SwamyG wrote: We'll fight corruption with love, not war, says Indian guru

I think this is the result of sophisticated statesmanship of his holiness Sri Sri Ravishankar who met Baba Ramdev. I think this arms crap was a red herring and would have been hijacked by p-secs and neanderthal perverts to DogVagina singh to crack down on BR and his movement. The likes of BR couldn't hurt even a fly however hard they try.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 10 Jun 2011 22:42

brihaspati wrote:"mystagogical"? will not that apply to Gandhiji in a big way too?

Brihaspati ji, aren't you stretching the comparison? Everybody has an intensional and extensional aspect to their thought and behavior. But a statesman leader will focus on shared values, meanings and purposes and translate that into unifying action based on admission, adjustment, corrective justice and forgiveness. Whether it was Gandhi ji or Sardar Patel, they maintained that poise.

Contrast that with leaders who indulge in uncompromising ultimatums, clamor for death penalties, harnessing a yogic militia or "jinn technology". Let's admit that some of it is uncalled for. My main point is that any kind of political extremism will prove divisive and undermine the widespread consensus about the corruption malaise and the demand for a Lokpal with teeth.

In the end, perhaps Baba Ramdev ji's ruckus will have helped push along a real Lokpal legislation steered by other more responsible leaders. Sort of like Vinobha Bhave's Bhoodaan movement reached out to the feudals and facilitated land reform legislation, but not without the Naxal menace kicking up some dust on the horizon. I guess all we're saying is that, with all due respect to Baba Ramdev's contributions to society, democratic politics is not his forte.

P.S. I completely agree with your take on the meaning of "renunciation" in a more holistic sense that includes social activism, and I also have my differences with the Buddhist author. But Ramana ji's recent posts on the Kharijite mentality are pertinent here. In Islamic Sufism, they explain that a premature intolerance of self-purification and reform will lead to either a munaafiq (charade) mentality, or a mutahhajir mentality (show-bottle spiritualism with a harsh political agenda and takfiri type tendencies like the Kharijites). These are the real spiritual hazards that the Buddhist author is pointing out, which are true regardless of the broader definition of renunciation.

Therefore, regardless of broad philosophical divisiveness or raw nerves under a political divide, there's no need to magnify a sense of perceived hurt ("denigrating Hinduism", etc.) and instead focus on keeping the Lokpal reform on track.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 10 Jun 2011 22:44

CRamS wrote:I think this arms crap was a red herring and would have been hijacked by p-secs and neanderthal perverts to DogVagina singh to crack down on BR and his movement. The likes of BR couldn't hurt even a fly however hard they try.

I wonder if this particular twist of his name shd be put out on twitterverse. Would spread like fire I'm sure.

Sidhant · Post by **Sidhant** » 10 Jun 2011 22:51

Hi All,

I don't have the inside knowledge or deep understanding of facts as some of the Guru's on this forum, but dissing BR that he does not have a concrete agenda or solution for the problem makes no sense to me. What he has been doing is creating public awareness and creating a public movement to force the government to work on it. Its like after a spate of terrorist attacks, people should not protest unless they have a grand strategy to eliminate terrorism or the masses should not protest against inflation unless their leader has a grand economic plan to salvage the situation. These kind of arguments take the very right to peacefully protest against the government policies/inaction from a mango Indian like me coz I am not a security expert or economist to provide a solution. Are some people proposing that I should not exercise my right to peacefully protest unless I am a strategist, economist or a security expert.

Peaceful protests are a very democratic way of providing a feedback loop to the government, I would rather see it as a sign of vigilant public and a healthy democracy. And why should I have a grand plan to Solve terrorism, Corruption and black money issues, its the job to the government of the day and the bureaucratic establishment to figure out ways to fix the issue. This is what they are there for and get paid for, and no I do not want to wait for 5 yrs to show my anger through ballot. If I feel my country is burning right now, then I want the fire getting doused right now and not five yrs later. If the govt of the day is incapable of solving the problem they should step down and let someone capable try to solve the problem. I am good at the job I do and I expect the govt and bureaucracy to be good at their jobs.

As far as sinister motives are being attached to BR's protests, in absence of any concrete evidence, shouldn't we give him benefit of doubt. The worthies who are suggesting how BR should have put some solid agenda and absence of it means sinister motives, I have counter suggestions for them and the Govt, GOI could have brought up a timeframe and a transparent mechanism to formulate policies to get the black money back home. I am sure that if the timeframe and policy presented by the Govt was good enough, aam aadmi is intelligent enough to see the sincerity of Govt and the BR's protests would have fizzled. I ask who has sinister motives, people protesting peacefully againt corruption and black money or the GOI who used undemocratic means to disperse that crowd without warning at the night. From the eyes of this common Indian, I see GOI with the sinister agenda.

And Somnathji you are giving excuses on the behalf of Govt, that economically and legally how difficult it is to get back black money, how much complexities are involved. With all due respect to your knowledge about economy and other aspects, I think our Prime Minister is more knowledgeable in this respect. During the last elections when he promised that he will bring back the black money in 100 days, given his experience in both politics and economics, I am sure he did not get that number out of thin air. So when I hear your mumbo jumbo of oh how difficult it is to bring back the money, oh how many economic and legal tangles are involved, I feel you are implying one of the two things either Prime Minister was lying then or the Prime Minister does not knows what he is talking about. Almost 600 days have past by then, either he was lying then or his hands have been forced. Public protests are against the people who have forced his hands and also if the Prime Ministers hands are forced then the person if not fit to be the prime minister and should make way for a stronger prime minister.

My two cents on this whole saga as a common Indian who does not understands the nitty gritty of politics and economics.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 10 Jun 2011 22:51

Prasad wrote: I wonder if this particular twist of his name shd be put out on twitterverse. Would spread like fire I'm sure.

Guys, I am not a twitterer nor a facebooker (I am a Linkediner of course for professional reasons

), so any little bit to defame that Mofo, please go ahead.

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 10 Jun 2011 22:51

I think the title of this topic needs to accomodate Baba Ramdev as well.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 10 Jun 2011 22:53

Carl wrote:
brihaspati wrote:"mystagogical"? will not that apply to Gandhiji in a big way too?
Brihaspati ji, aren't you stretching the comparison? Everybody has an intensional and extensional aspect to their thought and behavior. But a statesman leader will focus on shared values, meanings and purposes and translate that into unifying action based on admission, adjustment, corrective justice and forgiveness. Whether it was Gandhi ji or Sardar Patel, they maintained that poise.

Carl,

The complete lionization of Gandhi was given after his death. SCB held more sway among common congress members (not the leaders) when he demonstrated it in 1937 elections. Ambedkar tussled with him. Nobody listened to him when he said Jinnah be made the PM. He also did not stand on his own words many times. Divide and rule was a forte of Gandhi too, Gandhi's political maneuvering while tussling with SCB is a prime example.

Both Ramdev and Gandhi use hindu motifs for their own ends. Their ends, goals and view points might be different. But their methods, their use of religion, symbolism and "sacrifice" as political tools clearly draw a comparision.

Of course as of now as I see it, Ramdev is a baccha in this political maneuvring compared to Gandhi.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 10 Jun 2011 22:59

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/actio ... ks/496033/

800 days after instead of 100 days as promised by Manmohan Singh ji, what has he done??

A big zero.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 10 Jun 2011 23:14

ravi_ku wrote: Both Ramdev and Gandhi use hindu motifs for their own ends. Their ends, goals and view points might be different. But their methods, their use of religion, symbolism and "sacrifice" as political tools clearly draw a comparision.

Of course as of now as I see it, Ramdev is a baccha in this political maneuvring compared to Gandhi.

Yes, it does. But please do note that this use of so called "religious" symbols are quite unique for there is no discrimination in these "religious" messages and symbols. These symbols and messages are universal and are meant for all Indians and not just those claiming to follow a particular "religion". Gandhiji, Baba Ramdev, Swami Vivekanand, Tilak, Savarkar, Advani and indeed any number of our leaders have used the same symbols without shame and without discrimination.

We need to wake up and stop the evaluation of ours and our leaders conduct, from a western narrative of religion and what it means for them and its role in their society - for they do not match. They do not match because the very role of "religion" and what it means and stands for is so vastly different that they are ideological opposites in many respects. I personally have great difficulty in even accepting the word religion as applicable to Sanatan Dharma. Fortunately, I am not alone in this for the 2002 court of Justice Verma backs me up to the hilt

We ought to stop using this western narrative of religion and its role in our society, which blinds us from the real issues that confront us. It is the same western narrative that blinds our DIE leaders too.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 10 Jun 2011 23:21

SwamyG wrote:Shaardula and Dilbu: Hope this eases your takleef. It does ease mine, I too was uncomfortable with the words "arms", "militia" ityadi.

We'll fight corruption with love, not war, says Indian guru

When one loses touch their own people then we are going to feel uncomfortable. Most of what we read about Indians is form a thrid person perspective and not from our own people view of the rest of the world.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 10 Jun 2011 23:22

Carl wrote: Brihaspati ji, aren't you stretching the comparison? Everybody has an intensional and extensional aspect to their thought and behavior. But a statesman leader will focus on shared values, meanings and purposes and translate that into unifying action based on admission, adjustment, corrective justice and forgiveness. Whether it was Gandhi ji or Sardar Patel, they maintained that poise.

Not really. Every one of those aspects "shared values, meanings and purposes and translate that into unifying action based on admission, adjustment, corrective justice and forgiveness" can be amply counter-example-d in MKG. I will not even go into Sardar. For the "mystical/mystagocical" part I specifically referred to vol 61 of the collected works. Many other volumes have ample evidence too. Anyway OT. But came up because BR was being put in perspective compared to MKG.

Contrast that with leaders who indulge in uncompromising ultimatums, clamor for death penalties, harnessing a yogic militia or "jinn technology". Let's admit that some of it is uncalled for. My main point is that any kind of political extremism will prove divisive and undermine the widespread consensus about the corruption malaise and the demand for a Lokpal with teeth.

MKG admitted giving uncompromising ultimatums, and even "fasting unto death". The "death penalty" issue is perhaps not again relevant for the thread. The "militia" angle has already been discussed and appears to be more a clever manipulation by the media or political opponents of BR. "Right to self defence" is admitted by MKG himself. I am not sure BR has talked of harnessing "jinn technology". Can you give a reference please? Not all kinds of political "extremism" appears to be "divisive" - do they? Do you mean that Maoists or Sd. Geelani or the Kashmiri separatists or Islamist fatwaists create "divisions" and "undermine consensus" in anything that concerns the rashtra? Such divisions are only apparently created if the youth wing of the BJP undertakes a march to raise the flag in Srinagar, or Salwa Judum is allowed to exist, or Taslima Nasreen visits India or MF Husain's artistic fondness for nude goddesses ignites some protests.

In the end, perhaps Baba Ramdev ji's ruckus will have helped push along a real Lokpal legislation steered by other more responsible leaders. Sort of like Vinobha Bhave's Bhoodaan movement reached out to the feudals and facilitated land reform legislation, but not without the Naxal menace kicking up some dust on the horizon. I guess all we're saying is that, with all due respect to Baba Ramdev's contributions to society, democratic politics is not his forte.

I think I have from the beginning of posting here been saying that he should not have been involved. Reasons, as far as I could tell on an open forum, I have stated. But what bothers is an attempted dissection of his character, motivations, intentions based on criteria which are equally applicable to the Ulema or the fatwaists, or even as I have pointed out earlier by quoting MKG himself [ in an earlier post] to icons of the current rashtra. There appears to be a thunderous silence in that direction. Vinobha Bhave's bhudaan movement has really very tenuous connections to or impact on Naxalite "land-reforms" and perhaps none at all. OT again.

What is curious is that you think "democratic politics" is not his forte. Does it mean that even if he has not shown immediate coincidence with the demanded for forms of democratic politics [by that criteria lost of movements, including many led by Congress stalwarts both before and after the Independence would become un-democratic], he cannot "evolve" into a "practitioner" - or that he should not be allowed to evolve so? A current chief minister came to the limelight by dancing on the bonnet of a car of another "leader" proficient in "democratic politics" [was he really? that would be again another OT issue!].

P.S. I completely agree with your take on the meaning of "renunciation" in a more holistic sense that includes social activism, and I also have my differences with the Buddhist author. But Ramana ji's recent posts on the Kharijite mentality are pertinent here. In Islamic Sufism, they explain that a premature intolerance of self-purification and reform will lead to either a munaafiq (charade) mentality, or a mutahhajir mentality (show-bottle spiritualism with a harsh political agenda and takfiri type tendencies like the Kharijites). These are the real spiritual hazards that the Buddhist author is pointing out, which are true regardless of the broader definition of renunciation.

I am rather familiar with several schools of practising Buddhism, and the tone of that article, honestly, would be disapproved by "vipassana" practitioners themselves. It shows many of the negative "aspects" the author himself is criticizing in others. Someone who fails to see those things in himself - is using a "jargon", and using a particular sectarian interpretation of "Buddhist" concepts as a stick to beat a hated "ideological" target. That is all I wanted to point out. OT. But isnt it quite a bit of arrogance to unilaterally declare that someone else has failed to "purify" or intolerant of "self-purification" without knowing little of the inner processes in that individual? it does not go with the concepts of "bipassana" - you can ask. OT anyway.

Therefore, regardless of broad philosophical divisiveness or raw nerves under a political divide, there's no need to magnify a sense of perceived hurt ("denigrating Hinduism", etc.) and instead focus on keeping the Lokpal reform on track.

the "denigrating" stuff was a single reference in someone's post clearing the name of another poster - and it was proclaimed that so-and-so had not "denigrated". I have merely asked for that "belief" to be vouched for. I have moved away from that discussion on baba-dissection and indicated clearly that I have accepted the principle of "specifics" which will now be applied to each and every concept/demand/wish/proclamation/belief from the "specifics" position holders. Do you still need to go back to start the looping again?

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 10 Jun 2011 23:24

http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?724665

A harbinger of things to come before the 15 th. Ministers who were silent before are now jumping into the fray...

Law Making is Not at Will: Govt Tells Anna Hazare
PTI | BANGALORE | JUN 10, 2011

The government today criticised civil rights activist Anna Hazare for setting August 15 as deadline for enactment of the Lokpal bill and appeared to express doubts about meeting it.

Union Minister of State for Parliamentary Affairs Ashwani Kumar also hit out at Hazare for resorting to "fast-to-death at the drop of a hat".

The agitation by Hazare is unjustified as the UPA government is sensitive to the issue and fighting corruption is its "core agenda", he said.

"You (Hazare) say if you (the government) don't bring a legislation (Lokpal bill) by 15th August, we would go on a fast," Kumar told reporters here in response to questions.

But he added, "law making is not at will. Law making is a functioning of a process".

Indicating that law enactment is a lengthy process, he said one has to discuss the bill with stake-holders, assimilate everybody's view and also see "what the constitution permits, laws permit".

"You cannot in the garb of being a crusader against corruption undermine the established institutions of Parliamentary democracy".

He said one has to understand that there are "competing priorities in governance".

Kumar said India has established institutions of democracy, an independent judiciary, a free press, a Parliament- that's a law maker and an executive that implements the law.

"We are duty bound as the Government has to protect the structures of the constitution and we will fight corruption consistent with maintaining the integrity of the Constitution," he said.

The Minister said it would be the government's earnest attempt to bring the Lokpal bill in the monsoon session of the Parliament.

"I only hope that the kind of atmosphere that's being generated in the country does not lead the civil society...So called civil society representatives to delay the presentation of the bill," he said.

Kumar said his personal view is that the President, Prime Minister and other constitutional functionaries like Vice-President, Lok Sabha Speaker and Judges of Supreme Court must not come under the ambit of Lokpal.

"...Because in real terms, given the ground reality of the way politics in the country is evolving, you cannot have highest constitutional functionaries unable to perform their constitutional duties on account of someone choosing to abuse provisions of this bill," the minister said.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 10 Jun 2011 23:31

ravi_ku,
Shaurya_T took the words out of my mouth.

Usage of common symbols for political communication does not imply identity between a Gandhi and a BR, nor even belonging to the same category necessarily. Sanity means that we discriminate between themes and tendencies rather than indulge in identities.