The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 13 Jun 2011 19:31

No - advice to people to state points without "rudeness" or "personal aspersions" only to be given by one pontiff of civility or neutrality - but not followed by that super-arrogant pontiff himself. Some others will claim that of course such rudeness and personal slant or gratuitous slant is a part of legitimate POV! The supreme ego at being peeved at being questioned -always has to show through!

Turning that around so was this method working in the mind of the "civil society" and its great arrogant pontiff here who appears to be so peeved at any ridicule or questioning of the agenda behind the draft, [and who liberally found agendas behind "bunkum" ideas] to force the selection committee to accept the 50% "civil society" search committee recommendations? There seems to be no mechanism for sending the list back from the selection committee?

negi · Post by **negi** » 13 Jun 2011 19:39

NAC is yet another example of this moronic tendency to have committees in India; hey while you guys are at it how about forming a committee which will be tasked with coming out with a set of best practices on how to form, name and constitute commitees ?

Arrey tell me if we are having issues with the system not being able to fix accountability of people holding constitutional positions then HTF is this extra-constitutional kicthen committee going to make any difference ? NAC and it's members remind me of these jokers in any typical big Indian wedding who are niether from bride's side nor groom's all they do is stroll around aimlessly enjoy the good food and gossip.Most of the members of the NAC have full time engagements/business/jobs can't imagine how much time do they actually spend doing anything constructive apart from doing yes madamji.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 13 Jun 2011 19:44

Even if there are amendments that restrict the power of the "President" in choosing the "judges" reco'd by the "collegiate" - the continuity of "choice" from previous regimes remain. So if a political party has been in power for a very long time or for most part of the history of republican India, it will still have a handle on the selection. Simply because it was choosing the "judiciary" before the amendments.

The reforms actually ensure that short, unforeseen changes due to electoral or political reverses does not disrupt the possible long-standing relationship built up. Probably that was the reason for the 1993 "reform"? Given the experiences of PVN, or VPSingh or the more remote 77?

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 13 Jun 2011 19:50

The Guru, the Gandhian, the Organisation Man

The Organisation Man represents the ultimate victory of the urban middle classes. Many with no particular talent other than a fine nose for profit have attached themselves to the generous mammaries of the Welfare State, and have prospered. For instance, there are all these luminaries -- self-proclaimed 'eminent' historians, economists, writers, playwrights, filmmakers, etc., -- who give each other awards, while those with genuine talent are blackballed if they do not toe the company, or party, line.

http://www.rediff.com/news/column/the-g ... 110613.htm

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 13 Jun 2011 20:00

Besides tax reform on indirect and direct taxes, the other area of reform in the area of taxes is in Real Estate stamp duty...Today, it is arbitrary, high and perhaps the single biggest reason for generation of "cash", or black money in RE..Its a state govt thing, but if there was a way, the central govt should simply ban stamp duty for good nationally...That should take care of a large part of the problem in RE..

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 13 Jun 2011 20:13

Threat to democracy is from unelected tyrants, says Congress

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 839340.cms

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 13 Jun 2011 20:20

so the small town hindi heartland is trying to rise against the "delhi durbar" and the durbarites are panicking.

If one remembers the Vastanvi controversy, amplified by the latest Ismail Darbar's statement - all couched in ofcourse modern terms.
i) it is the 1750s combination of marathas plus shia.
The RPI joining with Shiv sena is again
ii) the marathas of whose main supporters were the lower castes of that time -1750s.

This time there are no britishers for interference. Interesting times ahead.

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 13 Jun 2011 20:31

http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?724939

In a stepped-up attack on Anna Hazare and BJP-RSS, Congress today dubbed the Gandhian as an "unelected dictator" who is reading the script of forces attempting to destabilise the country".

"The greatest danger to the democracy is from the unelected dictator....if democracy faces its biggest peril, it is from the tyranny of the unelected and tyranny of the unelectible", party spokesman Manish Tewari told reporters without naming Hazare or BJP or RSS.

When told that he was describing Hazare as an "unelected dictator", Tewari said, "These are not my words...I have made a generic statement."

Apparently sending the message to Hazare and his colleagues not to take the engagement with the government for granted, he said there can be only one veto in Indian democracy and that is in the hands of people and "not any one individual."

Hitting out at the civil society representatives led by Hazare, Tewari said now there has been "violence in language" of those who have been claiming to be Gandhians and it appears that they have been reading the script of forces out to destabilize the country.

As Congress leaders have been accusing Hazare and Ramdev of being 'masks' of BJP-RSS for sometime, Tewari conceded there has been a change of the party's attitude towards them once it was known that they were "instruments of forces attempting to destabilise the country".

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 13 Jun 2011 20:31

so the small town hindi heartland is trying to rise against the "delhi durbar" and the durbarites are panicking.

If one remembers the Vastanvi controversy, amplified by the latest Ismail Darbar's statement - all couched in ofcourse modern terms.
i) it is the 1750s combination of marathas plus shia.
The RPI joining with Shiv sena is again
ii) the marathas of whose main supporters were the lower castes of that time -1750s.

This time there are no britishers for interference. Interesting times ahead.

this time there are no britishers, but EJs are mopping up all SC/STs. the lower castes will be heavily christianized in the EJ radical variety.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 13 Jun 2011 21:03

No - advice to people to state points without "rudeness" or "personal aspersions" only to be given by one pontiff of civility or neutrality - but not followed by that super-arrogant pontiff himself. Some others will claim that of course such rudeness and personal slant or gratuitous slant is a part of legitimate POV! The supreme ego at being peeved at being questioned -always has to show through!

Turning that around so was this method working in the mind of the "civil society" and its great arrogant pontiff here who appears to be so peeved at any ridicule or questioning of the agenda behind the draft, [and who liberally found agendas behind "bunkum" ideas] to force the selection committee to accept the 50% "civil society" search committee recommendations? There seems to be no mechanism for sending the list back from the selection committee?

And you're the high priest with the quality to compress the most words into the smallest idea ?

Just because someone points out that the SC Judge's are appointed by a Collegium of Judges and rubber stamped by the Prez, i'd expect normal people to acknowledge and move on. Why throw in the personal stuff once again and all that name calling Sir? This is the internet we all may not have all our facts right all the time. Big deal. Why display so much ego on so small an issue?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 13 Jun 2011 21:17

^^Oh I do acknowledge. Its never been forthcoming from the other side. The point could have been made without a lot of adjectives like "half baked" etc, isnt it? Or you find that part of relevant statement about CJ?

I understand you may need to defend someone blindly - but
Unfortunately people unaware of developments in India make assertions in haste, only to google for half-baked support at leisure... this does seem to you like necessary part of "collegium statement" and no "personal" dig? Are you determined not to see the personal attacks, or irrelevant personal aspersions like the BR-"gay" stuff - if it comes from this particular poster or pass it off as legitimate POV and opinion? You only have problems if I respond in kind?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Jun 2011 21:23

SwamyG wrote:
Sanku wrote: And the discussion has shifted from culpability of Sonia Gandhi and almost the entire cabinet being accused of one or the other massive scam/loot to inane topics.
If you can convince moderators in adding Sonia Gandhi to the title, it would be awesome But the dhaaga title will become like a Hanuman tail....growing, growing and growing.

More like Pinnochio's Nose considering the Italian origins of Mrs Sonia Gandhi!

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 13 Jun 2011 21:26

Can posters post material about the members given in the list of the NAC - that is supposed to be an interface to "civil society" - and discuss their ideological profile, past overt positions on issues. We should have a good idea of what the government may have in mind as a definition of "civil society".

We already have some behavioural or POV material on AH - such as flogging on "alcoholism". I am assuming that BR will never be considered "civil society" by the self-appointed and INC approved "civil society". So what about the list in the current NAC? Also were there members in the past who do not appear in the current list?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 13 Jun 2011 21:37

There should be no problem in discussing potential profiles of 50% of the members of the search committee, given that it has already been asserted that "discussing" and "questioning" individuals connected to this campaign/institution is legitimate part of this thread.

Maybe we should discuss the past records of the members of the drafting committee, and the people who are most stringent in support. We are only "questioning" and it should not be seen as "bashing".

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 13 Jun 2011 21:38

SwamyG wrote:
Sanku wrote: And the discussion has shifted from culpability of Sonia Gandhi and almost the entire cabinet being accused of one or the other massive scam/loot to inane topics.
If you can convince moderators in adding Sonia Gandhi to the title, it would be awesome But the dhaaga title will become like a Hanuman tail....growing, growing and growing.

ramana wrote: More like Pinnochio's Nose considering the Italian origins of Mrs Sonia Gandhi!

that Hanuman tail resulted in destruction of Lanka nagari

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 13 Jun 2011 21:56

What if the title of thread is changed to "Anti-corruption agitation and the Lokpal bill"? No restriction to discussing or focusing only on two stalwarts. A host of other shining lights and other related issues can come up.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 13 Jun 2011 22:29

brihaspati wrote:Can posters post material about the members given in the list of the NAC - that is supposed to be an interface to "civil society" - and discuss their ideological profile, past overt positions on issues. We should have a good idea of what the government may have in mind as a definition of "civil society".

We already have some behavioural or POV material on AH - such as flogging on "alcoholism". I am assuming that BR will never be considered "civil society" by the self-appointed and INC approved "civil society". So what about the list in the current NAC? Also were there members in the past who do not appear in the current list?

PM can't be left out of Lokpal Bill: Aruna Roy

Q&A: Harsh Mander, member, NAC

The NAC has been very silent on the Lok Pal Bill. What is your view on it?

The NAC doesn’t have a mandate over all social legislations. We were also in the process of preparing an institution such as the Lok Pal to check corruption. However, once the government constituted the committee to jointly draft the Bill, we supported it.

The NAC believes that we need a strong and independent institution to control corruption that exists at high levels. The official draft of the Lok Pal Bill, which was framed by the government, was very weak. My worry with the present version of the Bill, which is being prepared by activists and government representatives, is that it will get submerged in the huge number of small-time corruption cases. The Bill should focus on high-level corruption, including the Prime Minister’s Office (PMO) and higher judiciary.

Second, there should be a number of checks and balances to maintain the accountability of the Lok Pal.

It is believed that the PMO doesn’t think very highly of the NAC.
Our job is to advise from a strong position of social justice. The government has accepted some of our recommendations and it has rejected some.

NAC members protest against plan panel's move for new poverty line

A spoon, 25 grams of dal, half a slice of bread, some washing powder and a torn piece of kurta, in total worth Rs 20. That is what three key National Advisory Council members -- Jean Dreze, Aruna Roy and Harsh Mander -- brought for the deputy chairman of Planning Commission Montek Singh Ahluwalia on Monday protesting against the Rs 20 per day person expenditure poverty line it has decided upon as a cut off.

The three NAC members led a group of about 60-70 noisy protestors carrying dozens of packets – all worth Rs 20 – and asked the Planning Commission members to survive a day in Delhi on the contents and shouted slogans waving placards mocking the poverty line

The presence of the trio, who have been locked in an argument against the 'fiscal prudence wallahs' in the government while pushing for an expansive food security bill, marked a scaling up of the battle between the two sides.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 13 Jun 2011 22:38

Trying to get a model of what will be the definition of "civil society" that has 50% stake in the search committee, from the NAC members as good representatives of who are possibly seen as "civil" by INC, and what their POV's are: here is one from the earlier part of the list: Dr. Jean Dreze.

From an article in EPW in 2000 two years before this Belgian born and British educated economist became an Indian citizen.

Militarism, Development and Democracy Author(s): Jean Dreze Source: Economic and Political Weekly, Vol. 35, No. 14 (Apr. 1-7, 2000), pp. 1171-1183

In India, there appears to me to be insufficient awareness of the destructive effects of militarism around the world,and of the risk of India itself being caught in the spiral of violence that is sweeping today large parts of Africa, Asia and eastern Europe. By and large, India has been relatively successful - so far - in avoiding the ravages of militarism. Yet the danger is always present. Indeed, the events that have followed nuclear tests in India and Pakistan in May 1998 provide a stark illustration of the adverse effects of militarism on development and democracy. During this period, we have witnessed: - A large increase in military expenditure, to the detriment of basic services (e g, contrast the Indian government's reluctance to spend an additional 0.5 per cent of GDP to ensure universal elementary education with recent proposals for a much larger hike in defence spending). - The intensification of a costly and dangerous arms race in the region, as well as
unprecedented insecurity. - War between India and Pakistan within twelve months of the tests (contrast with the claim made, at that time, that nuclear deterrence had made war 'impossible').

-Rising authoritarianism and propaganda in both countries, and the collapse of democracy in Pakistan

- A massive displacement of development concerns by 'security' concerns (which illustrates the fact that militarism entails a diversion not only of economic resources but also of 'political resources'). During the recent elections in India, for instance, the Kargil conflict captured an enormous amount of attention, while development issues were virtually invisible.

The displacement of development concerns by security concerns can also be seen in the respective coverage of different issues in the media. To illustrate, Figure 1 presents a simple comparison of the coverage of defence issues vis-a-vis development issues in 14 English-medium dailies during the last 12 months for which data are available.Defence issues turnouttocapture an enormous amount of attention in com- parison with, say, poverty, health, education (especially primary education) and other 'trivial' matters. Note also that the' reference period here ends before the Kargil 'incident'. Since then, readers have been constantly bombarded with defence-related articles and editorials, to the extent that one has to take refuge in the sports page.
[...]
In India itself, it is arguable that the perceived need for energetic counter-insurgency operations in border areas has fostered a remarkable tolerance for repressive police and military action throughout the country.The financial costs of these operations are also borne by the society at large.
[...]
Suppose that the Indian army were to engage in 'hotpursuits' across the
Line of Control, as has been repeatedly suggested in various quarters during the last two years. Would it be 'irrational' for Pakistani leaders to take a leaf from Schelling's book and reply with "a demonstration drop on a Hiroshima-sized Indian city"? The prospect may sound too horrible to be true, but this is the stuff that nuclear strategy is made of. All we can say is that they may or may not do it,knowing that a retaliatory nuclear strike on India's
part is itself uncertain. Further,knowing that Pakistani leaders may or may not
retaliate, Indian leaders may be tempted to 'take a chance' with hot pursuits, if they feel that the risk is small relative to the potential gains of a successful operation. The chain of gambles can be extended further:knowing that the Indian army may or may not respond to incursions in Kashmir with hot pursuits across the Line of Control,Pakistani leaders may be tempted to support such incursions (as happened recently in Kargil). What we end up with is the possibility of minor incidents triggering a chain of events that end with nuclear war, even if both sides consider this outcome as vastly disproportionateto the initial stakes and desperately wish to avoid it.
[...]
In the specific context of south Asia, it also reinforces other arguments to the effect that India has a strong stake in the survival of democracy in Pakistan.

He expands on his politically neutral POV in the reference/notes 22 :

In India,for instance,the democratic process has exercised a restraining influence on the Hindu right, which has been repeatedly constrained to tone down the more aggressive parts of its political programme in order to avoid losing votes.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 13 Jun 2011 23:04

^^^
full of '=='. India and Pak is same onleee....the publishing source seems to be a kind of research journal, which is used for literature surveys. this means that the "info" and conclusions of the article will be cited and used in other mindless driven that is churned out for next many years....

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 13 Jun 2011 23:05

brihaspati wrote:Trying to get a model of what will be the definition of "civil society" that has 50% stake in the search committee, from the NAC members as good representatives of who are possibly seen as "civil" by INC, and what their POV's are: here is one from the earlier part of the list: Dr. Jean Dreze.

From an article in EPW in 2000 two years before this Belgian born and British educated economist became an Indian citizen.

Militarism, Development and Democracy Author(s): Jean Dreze Source: Economic and Political Weekly, Vol. 35, No. 14 (Apr. 1-7, 2000), pp. 1171-1183

He expands on his politically neutral POV in the reference/notes 22 :
In India,for instance,the democratic process has exercised a restraining influence on the Hindu right, which has been repeatedly constrained to tone down the more aggressive parts of its political programme in order to avoid losing votes.

I met an Indonasian lady who did a class project in Massaland on Human rights in India and issues in India. Fascinating and I am still finding out what she has done research on.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 13 Jun 2011 23:15

Dr. Dreze has primarily researched on developmental issues, with an early joint work being on the status of "widows" from "Hindu" communities in North India,

Widows and Health in Rural North India Author(s): Marty Chen and Jean Dreze, Economic and Political Weekly, Vol. 27, No. 43/44 (Oct. 24-31, 1992), pp. WS81-WS92

The north Indian widow tends to be a highly marginalised person.She typically receives very little support from persons other than her children, and even when she lives with one or several of her adult sons she remains highly vulnerable to neglect.Further,her ability to engage in income earning activities of her own is severely restricted partly due to various patriarchal norms such as patrilineal in heritance and the division of labour by gender. The consequences of this social and economic marginalisation are manifest in poor health and high mortality levels.
[...]
For simplicity, and because each of the study villages has a large Hindu majority,we have decided to restrict the discussion to that community.

He makes an interesting point on "corruption" :
On Research and Action Author(s): Jean Dreze: Economic and Political Weekly, Vol. 37, No. 9 (Mar. 2-8, 2002), pp. 817-819

I have been particularly influenced by a sustained association with Mazdoor Kisan Shakti Sangathan (MKSS) in Rajasthanand, more recently, with Akal Sangharsh Samiti. The latter is an all- Rajasthan network of about 50 grass roots organisations that came together in late 2000 to defend the rights of drought-affected people, especially the right to employment. This campaign involved a good deal of action-oriented (even 'action based') research, focusing for instance on living conditions in drought-affected areas, the government's response to the crisis, and corruption in relief works.

My association with this campaign was an eye-opening experience in many ways.

He has also written extensively on other issues such as mid-day meals, etc. Looks like he has been long concerned with "corruption" especially in public distribution of food. He sees possibilities in "public action" outside the arena of "electoral politics".

Democracy and Right to Food: Jean Drèze Source: Economic and Political Weekly, Vol. 39, No. 17 (Apr. 24-30, 2004), pp. 1723-1731

In his defence of the Directive Principles, Ambedkar focused on the electoral process as the principal means of holding the state accountable outside the courts. Since then, we have learnt not to expect too much from electoral competition in this respect, for reasons discussed earlier. But at the same time, we have good grounds for enhanced confidence about the possibilities of public action outside the traditional arena of electoral politics. These possibilities have already been creatively harnessed for various causes, ranging from gender equality and dalit liberation to war resistance and the defence of civil liberties. There is no reason why these initiatives should not be extended to the assertion of economic and social rights,as is already happening to some extent.

Question - does all this background make him a fit or unfit candidate for the future Lokpal search committee?

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 13 Jun 2011 23:26

any member of an Indian national committee investigating graft and having the power and authority to dig into vast aspects of India should have Indian interests at heart. someone who does India==Pak and who pontificates about how India is "wasting" money on Defense is not eligible to have such power over and in India.

Nesoj · Post by **Nesoj** » 13 Jun 2011 23:27

brihaspati wrote:What if the title of thread is changed to "Anti-corruption agitation and the Lokpal bill"? No restriction to discussing or focusing only on two stalwarts. A host of other shining lights and other related issues can come up.

Considering the developments of the past couple of days, I fail to see major involvement of RD in the future. I feel that given a choice between leading the agitation or not jeopardizing his business empire (threats of raids, inquiries, investigations, etc), he has opted for the later. This will be confirmed in the coming week as he seems to have gone off the radar. The ongoing investigation in Nepal on land deals is just one instance of harassment

As regards AH, the UPA has come out with all guns blazing, lead by Manish Tiwari's statement of "threats from the unelected tyrants" and "tyranny of the unelected and tyranny of the unelectable" and Pranab Mukerjee's complaint of AH "undermining democratic process"

Jayanthi Natarajan clearly mentioned in a TV show this evening, that the role of the 'civil media' was limited to 'listening to their views' and that the bill would be 'drafted by the Cabinet' and 'passed by Parliament' . This is a U Turn from their previous stand and I see the meeting on 15th as the day when both parties part ways due to irreconcilable differences.

What next? AH goes on hunger strike again ? For certain, the Delhi Admin will not permit another RD type situation and permission will not be granted from the beginning. Will AH be able to continue the momentum from his hometown ?

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 13 Jun 2011 23:30

Mainoism is just shorthand for a variation of what communists call personality cult. In this case centered on Sonia and her family and strongest in the DIE circles. Not a meaningless concept at all.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 13 Jun 2011 23:34

KLNMurthy wrote:Mainoism is just shorthand for a variation of what communists call personality cult. In this case centered on Sonia and her family and strongest in the DIE circles. Not a meaningless concept at all.

I prefer Mainovadi though, much more Indic.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 13 Jun 2011 23:44

brihaspati wrote:Dr. Dreze has primarily researched on developmental issues,

Question - does all this background make him a fit or unfit candidate for the future Lokpal search committee?

From NAC website

Jean Drèze, born in Belgium in 1959, has lived in India since 1979 and became an Indian citizen in 2002. He studied Mathematical Economics at the University of Essex and did his PhD (Economics) at the Indian Statistical Institute, New Delhi. He has taught at the London School of Economics and the Delhi School of Economics, and is now Visiting Professor at Allahabad University. He has made wide-ranging contributions to development economics and public economics, with special reference to India.

Jean Drèze is co-author of “Hunger and Public Action”, “India: Development and Participation”, “Public Report On Basic Education” and “Focus On Children Under Six”, among other publications. He is also an active member of India’s right to food campaign, and of the world-wide movement for peace and disarmament.

Contact Address
C/o Department of Economics,
Allahabad University,
Allahabad 211 002

The question should be ...Does it qualify him ?

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 14 Jun 2011 00:06

Jean Dreze

Cardinal Richelieu

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 14 Jun 2011 00:28

Long time no see - on Hazare ji on this thread: a small revival of "questioning" him and the people around him:
http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/ ... dhian-halo

On a Headlines Today programme, the channel head, an enthusiastic Rahul Kanwal, is talking to Anna Hazare, Kiran Bedi and Arvind Kejriwal (a former IRS officer who is now a prominent civil society activist). As he begins discussing ‘Ab iske aage kya’ (What now after this?), he turns to Anna Hazare, and asks in Hindi, “You say that those who are corrupt should be hanged, is that not against Gandhian principles?” Anna answers, again in Hindi, “That is why I have said that, today, in many things, along with Gandhi we have to look towards Shivaji. [Unclear] Patel committed a mistake, and Shivaji had the man’s hands cut off. This policy of Chhatrapati, in many ways, we have to think about. Hundred per cent non-violence is not possible. Sometimes, even this has to be done, and that is why I have been saying that these people should be hanged…” Kiran Bedi interjects, “Anna is not taking away due process… he is going by the due process, the point is [that] economic offences today in our country are bailable, [are punished] by fines, minimum imprisonment; [there’s] no recovery of property, it is a joke.”
[...]
As a result of Anna’s reformist zeal, the people of his native village Ralegan Siddhi have witnessed the public flogging of those who dare to drink, a ban on all intoxicants, and restrictions on cable TV. It does not take much to see how closely this resembles the ideals of the Taliban, especially if you factor in the idea of a few hands being chopped off. Which is why it is no surprise that the sympathy he has long displayed for the Hindu Right has culminated in his endorsement of Narendra Modi.

The real surprise is that supporters of this movement see what they want to see in the man, belying all the evidence that exists. Consider those who have gathered under his banner. Among the people who shared the dais at Jantar Mantar were Medha Patkar of the Narmada Bachao Andolan and Ram Madhav of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS). Supporters of the movement range from Arvind Kejriwal to Baba Ramdev. Add to this Swami Agnivesh and Sri Sri Ravi Shankar.
[...]
Given that the Government has already created a body called the National Advisory Council (NAC) that drafts policy, monitors government programmes and exercises almost veto powers over significant aspects of governance, the process of naming people from civil society to help draft the Lokpal Bill is hardly of consequence. The NAC is already a body filled with people who have no accountability to the electorate, but it actually exercises power over how the current Government functions. In fact, such a focus on the Bill misses a larger point. From the very beginning, as another accompanying piece shows, the actual Bill has been a sideshow. For a large number, the Bill has become just a symbol, a precursor to the messianic hopes of cleaning up the system.
[..]
In such an environment, the need to buck the system, to insist that a way outside electoral politics is the only way, is disastrous. The authoritarian nature of the Anna movement, which has still to show that it enjoys mass support of any sort, is already obvious. It ranges from small things—such as Anupam Kher, a vociferous supporter of Hazare whose own record on Gujarat as chief of the Censor Board was at the very least questionable (impeding the release of several documentaries related to the riots), absurdly telling my co-panelist, Supreme Court lawyer Meenakshi Lekhi, while discussing this very issue on Times Now, that her body language was not celebratory enough—to much larger issues such as the insistence of this movement that only its own version of the Bill must be passed, and that Parliament should have no say on the Bill once the drafting committee has done its work. This is absurd, but it signals what lies ahead.

It is why we need to focus on the figure of Anna Hazare. The Gandhian stamp is one way to acquire public prestige in this country. The aura of a Gandhian association has long served public figures well.

The comments are even better than the POV.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 14 Jun 2011 00:43

I feel that given a choice between leading the agitation or not jeopardizing his business empire (threats of raids, inquiries, investigations, etc), he has opted for the later

Nesoj:

funny how only men in saffron clothing have "business empires."
check out some of the links to figure out more such business empires, though you might not be inclined to find it in your heart to speak negative things about them:

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/co ... _mz001.htm
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/06/ ... 4903.shtml
http://loomnie.com/2011/04/25/how-evang ... titutions/

also, to understand the hatred directed against Baba Ramdev, the following is crucial:
http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/new_age.htm

One night, during a meditation, I was opening up chakras which are spiritual channels in the body. I had done this many times before but this night was different. I began to feel a thickness in the air. An eerie feeling came over me. I was not alone. It came closer. It surrounded me. Then I realized that I was being surrounded by many disturbed "entities." I could feel them all around me - dozens of them. I tried to shake them away but they came closer. There was a slimy feeling to it all, yet at the same time I had a sick attraction to it - I was giving in!

The protection of God was waning because I had drifted away from it. I had gone into the spiritual forest alone and these spirits were descending on me. I limply said "someone help me." Yet at the same time I was giving in even though I didn't want to give in. I could feel them starting to take control (Mat 12:45). It was like nothing I'd ever experienced before in my life.

Suddenly it occurred to me to ask Jesus Christ for help. A surge of courage sprung up from within me and I said "Jesus, help me!" In a moment I could feel Jesus coming. In my mind’s eye I saw Him with a big stick. He chased away the disturbed entities. (Mat 21:12) The "beings" fled and left me. I stood in shock and thought "what just happened?" I felt like the man of the tombs who was just delivered from evil spirits.

Praise the Lord Jesus, the one and only redeemer

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 14 Jun 2011 00:46

chaanakya wrote:
brihaspati wrote:Dr. Dreze has primarily researched on developmental issues,

Question - does all this background make him a fit or unfit candidate for the future Lokpal search committee?
From NAC website

Jean Drèze, born in Belgium in 1959, has lived in India since 1979 and became an Indian citizen in 2002. He studied Mathematical Economics at the University of Essex and did his PhD (Economics) at the Indian Statistical Institute, New Delhi. He has taught at the London School of Economics and the Delhi School of Economics, and is now Visiting Professor at Allahabad University. He has made wide-ranging contributions to development economics and public economics, with special reference to India.

Jean Drèze is co-author of “Hunger and Public Action”, “India: Development and Participation”, “Public Report On Basic Education” and “Focus On Children Under Six”, among other publications. He is also an active member of India’s right to food campaign, and of the world-wide movement for peace and disarmament.

Contact Address
C/o Department of Economics,
Allahabad University,
Allahabad 211 002
The question should be ...Does it qualify him ?

He has been associated with fighting "corruption", already a member of the "civil society" as per NAC , has been a "hands on" action-based-researcher. No official "political" connection - the statement related to reference [22] in the first paper I quoted is problematic. But then he has not said "Hindu right" is "bad" only used it as a "term". It only needs other "civil society" members to decide to "invite" his name.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 14 Jun 2011 00:54

Don't know if this minor nitpick was posted earlier :
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 706277.ece

Even as senior advocate Shanti Bhushan moved the Supreme Court on Monday for initiating contempt proceedings against the former Samajwadi Party leader, Amar Singh, on the CD issue, a counter petition has been filed to open contempt action against Mr. Shanti Bhushan and his son Prashant Bhushan.

The petition, filed by advocate M.L. Sharma, also questioned the Lokpal Bill drafting committee, of which both are members. He said the panel comprising five members of the government and five private persons, including social activist Anna Hazare, was notified by the Union government on April 8.

Under Article 53 of the Constitution, the power to legislate rests with the Executive, and it could not be transferred. The notification to set up the committee was, therefore, unconstitutional, he said, seeking a declaration to this effect.

On the controversy over the release of the CD allegedly involving Mr. Shanti Bhushan and Mr. Amar Singh, he sought a direction to initiate contempt proceedings against the Bhushans for their alleged professional misconduct.

It now appears that it is claimed that the CD was doctored [as per NDTV]! Doctored CD's, wire-taps, politicians and Lokpal activists -- interesting and ironic backdrop to the Lokpal agitation whose draft is keen on using "wiretaps" and protecting "whistleblowers" who will perhaps use similar CD's in the future. If it was doctored, who "doctored" it all and for whose benefit? If it was not doctored, what does it mean for us looking more at the Lokpal bill agitation?

Nesoj · Post by **Nesoj** » 14 Jun 2011 00:57

devesh wrote:
I feel that given a choice between leading the agitation or not jeopardizing his business empire (threats of raids, inquiries, investigations, etc), he has opted for the later
Nesoj:

funny how only men in saffron clothing have "business empires."
check out some of the links to figure out more such business empires, though you might not be inclined to find it in your heart to speak negative things about them:

Why not ??? Whoever gave you that idea that I am not aware of the business empires of men in saffron, white, green or blue ? Did I mention anywhere that it is wrong for men in saffron clothing to have business empires ?? (or for that matter, anyone to be an entrepreneur?)
It's just that RD seems to be too preoccupied firefighting the fires that have been lit by the ongoing investigations, to give any more attention to his war on corruption

Now what else am I to say to satisfy you ??? Halleluiah !!!! Praise the Lord ????? or need I relate some 'out-of-body experience' to vindicate myself ROTFL

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 14 Jun 2011 01:12

devesh wrote:any member of an Indian national committee investigating graft and having the power and authority to dig into vast aspects of India should have Indian interests at heart. someone who does India==Pak and who pontificates about how India is "wasting" money on Defense is not eligible to have such power over and in India.

What is the role of this "civil society" in the Lokpal process? Be part of the search committee, provie a shortlist..Not select the Lokpal members..

Who "selects" these members of the "civil society"? Ex-CECs and CAGs, selected as members themselves...

The above metodology isnt ideal - I would prefer a nomination done by someone like the VP/President - but how does that in anyway mean that these guys have any powers of investigation on graft?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 14 Jun 2011 01:40

That bit about "civil society" not selecting the "members of the Lokpal" is a "red herring". The relevant portions of the draft has already been quoted. The search committee including its 50% [excluding the VP] "civil society" creates a list that is more than the vacancy. The selection committee has to select from this list. So it is technically possible to meet the minimum quotas of 4+2 and populate the rest with candidates favoured by the "civil society" - and nothing in the "qualifications" says that "civil society" activists are barred otherwise from being in that list.

The draft moreover does not make it clear what happens if the selection committee objects [three or more members] to all the proposed in the list sent by the search committee. Does it mean they have to fill up the vacancy within the list anyway? or they are not allowed to reject to the extent it makes it impossible to fill up the vacancies?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 14 Jun 2011 01:49

Didn't the father-son duo of Shanti and Prashant Bhushan declare that at least 8 past CJ's of the SC were "corrupt" [2010?]. So now as part of the drafting committee, they still want to have the CJ as a selector besides the PM - both of whom will be beyond the scanner before the first Lokpal for at least the first one they will be "selecting"? The "selection" from the legislative authority or its "reform" at the hands of "collegiate approval" does not seem to have affected the possibility of judicial corruption anyway!

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 14 Jun 2011 02:13

Some background on Shanti and Prashant Bhushan as described by Tehelka: people can point out here information if they feel there has been any misrepresentation.
http://www.tehelka.com/story_main40.asp ... hushan.asp

None of this was part of Prashant’s plans in his younger days. “I took a circuitous route. I was in the IIT Madras, which I quit after a semester in Mechanical Engineering. I studied economics and then philosophy (of science) at Princeton. I quit the course, as I would have had to study another four years of Physics.” Finally, he returned to India to gain a law degree from Allahabad University.

An early big fight was the Doon Valley case, where limestone quarrying was hurting the environment. He then did the Bhopal gas tragedy litigation, and the Narmada case as well. He was the Delhi President of the People’s Union for Civil Liberties, India’s oldest human rights organisation. He also wrote a book on the Rs 64-crore Bofors scandal of the late 1980s, involving payoffs in the supply of howitzers to the Indian government.

Prashant’s father is Shanti Bhushan, 83, who was union minister for law in the Morarji Desai government (1977-79). They live in the same house in Noida, adjacent to Delhi. Both are outraged by the corruption among judges. The father thinks small parties are a disgrace. He is impressed by the achievements of the UPA Government and is likely to vote for the Congress. The son thinks that the UPA Government is among the weakest that India has had. He is likely to vote for the BSP. The father is not anti-America. The son is strongly against the US and the Indo-US civilian nuclear agreement. Together, they are formidable public warriors, among India’s best.

A possible observation on behaviour :

AGRAWAL WAS livid. He said Shanti Bhushan was targeting the judiciary and arguing like a street urchin. By then, Prashant, also in court, was furious as well. He said the judge was twisting what his father had said. Three good judges of integrity. Three angry men. The clash made headlines the next day.

“I don’t hold a grudge against Agrawal for calling me a street urchin. You can call me anything you want. My grudge is that he is not taking action against the corrupt. Agrawal lost his balance,” says Shanti Bhushan. “He was misrepresenting my father’s arguments. Agrawal was loud, and was offensive and arrogant. There is a limit to tolerance. My anger was rising all the time,” says Prashant. His voice is raised and he is banging the table. It’s like he is back in court.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 14 Jun 2011 02:30

Shanti and Prashant Bhushan themselves satisfy all the criteria written out in the draft for eligibility for both the search committee as well as the Lokpal, just as AH does too. The former pair will be from appropriate "legal background" [minimum advocate etc], and proper "civil society" as they had worked against corruption in the past provable from documentary evidence, as well as evidence from their past, to show that they are fiercely independent persons and cannot be influenced. AH lacks the "legal background" but he can be from the "general category" in the Lokpal - can't he?

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 14 Jun 2011 03:29

Brihaspati ji, one hope I got with BRD's movement was that finally country would get on path to get rid of Dynasty driven conparty finally. But the more I compare with RG's rule during 1984 ~ 1989 was that all the political parties were against congress and backing VPSing and role press especially Indian Express in highlightling Bofors, Airbus and printing questionnaire by Jethmalani to RG everyday.

Comparing it to last 6-7 years, the media is supportive of SG, MMS and the conparty. The expose that should have been done by media/press is now being done by individuals like Subramaniam Swami and BRD.

What has changed? How come they have almost total control of media? Is it funds from US, EU etc.?

Is there any chance of getting rid of them in next 2-3 years? Sorry if my post is bit muddled, very sleepy now wanted to ask you this for last many days.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 14 Jun 2011 03:59

How Congress Gameplan Backfired?: - by IndiaTV's Rajat Sharma (got via email and I don't have an URL)

Congress wounded by Anna’s misguided missiles had a perfect plan to counter the attack. The crafty leaders had worked out a strategy to use Swami Ramdev as a ‘Drone’ missile to hit target ‘Anna’, but the missile backfired. Now, Congress is running for cover both from Anna Hazare and Swami Ramdev. How did the Congress end up in this mess. Let me give you the inside story.

First, the background: It was Swami Ramdev who had roped in Anna Hazare to join his anti-corruption crusade. It was Ramdev’s idea to sit on dharna at Jantar Mantar in the first week of April, but one of Anna’s men hijacked his idea. Anna announced his fast and dharna at Jantar Mantar on a date when Ramdev was stuck in Haridwar.

An angry Ramdev initially decided to keep away from Anna’s show at Jantar Mantar. But all of a sudden, Anna became a hit. Support from the twitterati and the internet bloggers along with several under-employed film stars took both Swami Ramdev and Congress by surprise.

It was then that Swami Ramdev changed his mind. He landed at Jantar Mantar ostensibly to lend support to Hazare’s fast. Swami Ramdev gave an energetic speech at Jantar Mantar which mesmerized the crowds present there, as also the supporters watching it live on television.

By now the so called civil society had painted an unknown Anna as a modern Gandhi. The Congress, under pressure from public reaction, conceded to Anna’s demands. This victory for Anna, perhaps, left Ramdev wondering whether Anna had overtaken him as the man who would lead the new-age war against corruption. After all, it was Ramdev who had visited over 600 districts and addressed huge gatherings to muster public opinion against corruption. Ramdev had a mass base and a nationwide network of his own. Anna had none. How could Ramdev allow Anna to hijack his crusade?

Ramdev decided to go in for a show of strength in New Delhi. He planned to bring one lakh supporters to Ramlila Maidan, compared to Anna’s one thousand at Jantar Mantar. If Anna could become a hero by forcing the Government on the Jan Lok Pal Bill issue, Ramdev thought he could force the government to agree to a law on a more popular issue, that of ‘black money’.

Embarrassed over its abject surrender to Anna on the Lok Pal bill issue, the Congress now smelt an opportunity here.

Ramdev was already friendly with a number of senior Congress leaders. Shiela Dixit, Bhupender Singh Hooda, Ghulam Nabi Azad, Vilas Rao Deshmukh, Kamal Nath and many others had been blessed at his yoga camps. Congress leaders saw Ramdev as a tool to fix Anna. That is the reason why Congress leaders whooped with joy when Ramdev said he did not support Anna’s demand for bringing the Prime Minister under the purview of Lok Pal. The Congress leaders thought that they had found an answer to Anna in Ramdev. Far way back in 1975, the Congress leaders had similarly pitched Acharya Vinoba Bhave as a ‘sarkari sant’ against Jaya Prakash Narayan. Bhave was known for praising Emergency as an ‘Anushashan Parva’ (era of discipline).

Subodh Kant Sahay, who had a personal equation with Ramdev, was asked to cut short his U.S. visit. Kapil Sibal, the canny lawyer was asked to cancel his visit to London. Sudhir Chandra, then Chief of Central Board of Direct Taxes, was already in touch with Ramdev on his demands. An over-enthusiastic Government had discovered the magic formula to blunt, if not bury Anna’s movement. Congress believed that by accepting Ramdev’s demands, it will make him into a bigger hero. The gameplan was to finally draw Ramdev and his mass base towards Congress at least for the next general election.

It was a perfect plan. That was the reason why the veteran Congressman Pranab Mukherjee along with three other ministers and the Cabinet Secretary rushed to Delhi airport to woo Ramdev. The idea behind this was to broadly accept Ramdev’s demands, persuade him to announce that the Government was sincere in bringing back black money and call off his dharna at Ramlila Maidan.

Ramdev was ready to play along but was concerned over the reaction from his support base. He did not want to be branded a ‘Sarkari Sant’. He insisted that he would go ahead with his dharna at Ramlila Maidan at least for few days. Ramdev’s idea was to call it off after his show of strength, but the government did not trust Ramdev on this issue.

The government had doubts that Ramdev might change his mind after one lakh supporters of his gathered at Ramlila Maidan. Efforts to persuade Ramdev to call off his fast unto death continued the next day. A compromise formula was worked out: that eighty per cent of Ramdev’s demands would be met, the government agreed to give this in writing, but on the condition that he will also give an assurance in writing that he would call off his satyagraha at the end of the first day.

Ramdev was reluctant to sign the deal. But the tactful Sibbal made his Man Friday Acharya Balkishan to hand-write a letter to this effect. The acharya was told that this was meant only for the eyes of the Prime Minister.

An inexperienced Ramdev trusted the political leaders he was dealing with. Keeping his word he ensured that none of the BJP leaders were seen in Ramlila Maidan. He categorically told RSS to keep off his satyagraha. Ramdev even collected a variety of Muslim leaders on stage. He refrained from making any adverse comment on Sonia Gandhi or Manmohan Singh. During the day he repeated several times that his movement was not aimed against “any Government or any Party”.

But this was not enough to convince the wary Congress leaders. They were under attack in the media and inside their own party for going en masse to the airport to meet Ramdev. They did not want yet another Anna incident where the government might be seen submitting to the pressure, this time from the “Sadhu Society”.

Ramdev was given a deadline of June 4 evening to call off his dharna. But with swelling crowds at the Ramlila Maidan and a government on its knees, Ramdev was enjoying his moments of glory. He did not want to be seen as someone who had given in easily. He wanted to continue this for one more day. This is where the complete mistrust between him and the government surfaced.
Kapil Sibal was convinced that Ramdev was backing out from his commitment at the behest of RSS. He decided to ‘expose the Baba’ by releasing Acharya Balkishan’s letter to the media, suggesting that there was a ‘deal’ between Ramdev and the government.

Sibal threatened that if Ramdev went back on his word, the government would teach him a lesson. Kapil’s now famous words “if we know how to accommodate, we also know how to rein in” turned out to be the breaking point. Angry hardliners in Congress believed that the Baba had cheated on them. They assumed that RSS was behind this. On the other hand, the Baba was furious. He felt that by revealing Acharya’s letter, the government had backstabbed him. Ramdev felt that the government wanted to discredit him.

After almost announcing victory before the crowds present at Ramlila Maidan, Ramdev suddenly changed his tune. He gave a call for more of his supporters to join him at Ramlila Maidan. This made the Congress leaders nervous. With more supporters coming in the next day, they thought, it would be almost impossible to evict the Baba from Ramlila Maidan. The government then decided to move in a force of 5000 policemen.

Rest is history: innocent, peaceful and hungry people sleeping in Ramlila Maidan were subjected to brutal lathi charge and tear gas by police. The Baba got the sympathy and the Government got the flak.

Today, the mistrust between Ramdev and the Congress leadership is deeper. The Congress wanted to fix Anna by using Ramdev as a weapon. It ended up bringing Anna and Ramdev together. The Congress has been left with fewer friends. Now, it has to fight both Anna and Ramdev. They have to look for another tool, and a new game plan.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Jun 2011 04:22

Tx.up. for that incisive report.Typical of Congress' chicanery.They have learnt nothing after decades of disasters,Bhindranwale being the worst.Now they will feel the "crush" betwen the Baba and the Hazare-dous one.