Indian Military Aviation

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 13 Jun 2011 19:59

shiv - I think it was already a planned design to give it some self defense

the Brits and French did not really need it based on their other assets and mission profiles both indvidually as well as part of NATO

If it was mentioned in the 76, 77 AWTA then it will tally with what I say

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Jun 2011 20:06

Surya wrote:shiv - I think it was already a planned design to give it some self defense

Yes. To make it attractive to some export customer. The Brits were gunning to sell Jag to India from 1968. The creation of the "Jag International" with overwing pylons for self defence missiles may have been a sort of sweetener. The Jag was already known to be underpowered by the IAF.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 13 Jun 2011 20:07

the mission for british and french jaguars was battlefield interdiction on the german plains against soviet tank armies. it was meant to be ultra low level, possibly one way flights. mission emphasis was on getting to the target through speed and hiding. any air cover would come from usaf and at the time raf and luftwaffe phantoms and starfighters

the international variant was not expected to be in such a dense or "sophisticated" environment and was therefore deemed to be more multi-role or self sufficient

the jaguar mission became obsolete in europe quite quickly after tornado arrived

negi · Post by **negi** » 13 Jun 2011 20:13

karan_mc wrote:Air Commodore Rohit Varma Test Pilot in Tejas Program ,quits air force over No promotion

Link here

Surely Bad News ,this has been a trend for a while , and pilots don't want to kill their promotions chances by joining Test Programs ,this is why we have few test pilots joining Tejas Program

The system is like that; don't know how these things work in IAF but in IN you get more points for sea/squadron service less points for being posted in a base/HQ/Admin . At Cmde level the vacancies are in any case in single digits; unlike in the 80s or even until the 90s today there are a lot of attractive career options for ex-service personnel in the private sector so maing a choice is easy specially after one has served for the stipulated period (20 years for commissioned officers).

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 13 Jun 2011 21:11

Here is my take. The overwing rail was standard fit with Jag Int'l. It was qualified for magic matra and Sidewinder. Oman switched to sidewinder. ordered in 1974 and delivered in 1977. Oman did not use matra's. They had modified owerwing pylon for second batch which was delivered in 1983 (ordered 1980).

India ordered them in 1978.

1979-84

JI005 GR.1 was loaned to India. RAF serial XX115. Used for Matra Magic integration & DARIN development. Returned to UK
====================================

One can take his own conclusion.

Abhibhushan · Post by **Abhibhushan** » 13 Jun 2011 21:17

Over-Wing Missile for Jaguar

a. India was interested because the assigned role for Jag was Deep Penetration
b. Design of the modification was done by BAe
c. Development trials were done by the IAF
d. Mating the pylons with Matra Magic was done by IAF and Matra
d. India shared IP for the modification for the pylon
e. I do not think any other air force (barring Oman) showed any interest in the mod

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 13 Jun 2011 22:08

na ... the overwing thing was not just for the IAF.

RAF Jaguars too had them.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... _1999.jpeg

http://www.aviationbanter.com/attachmen ... 1172742964

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 13 Jun 2011 22:22

this upgraded IAF MiG-29 pic hasn't been post earlier i think

http://russianplanes.net/images/to46000/045065.jpg

joygoswami · Post by **joygoswami** » 13 Jun 2011 22:52

Hiten wrote:this upgraded IAF MiG-29 pic hasn't been post earlier i think

http://russianplanes.net/images/to46000/045065.jpg

Yes, It was posted in the Miscellaneous Pictures - Indian Military thread. Pg-83

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 13 Jun 2011 22:55

^^
oops! my bad - hadn't noticed it. Thanks for pointing it out

joygoswami · Post by **joygoswami** » 13 Jun 2011 23:07

Hiten wrote:^^
oops! my bad - hadn't noticed it. Thanks for pointing it out

No Probs

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 14 Jun 2011 04:53

China upgrading air force rapidly, says IAF chief

The IAF plans to tone up with future acquisitions, including 300 fifth generation fighter aircraft, 140 light combat aircraft, six midair refuellers, 80 Mi-17 helicopters, 22 attack helicopters and 15 heavy-lift choppers.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Jun 2011 05:17

indranilroy wrote:na ... the overwing thing was not just for the IAF.

RAF Jaguars too had them.

They did not get them till the Gulf war, over a decade after the IAF got them.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 14 Jun 2011 06:23

shiv wrote:
indranilroy wrote:na ... the overwing thing was not just for the IAF.

RAF Jaguars too had them.
They did not get them till the Gulf war, over a decade after the IAF got them.

India and Oman were not the only users ... I meant nothing more, nothing less.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 14 Jun 2011 06:45

I believe the Ecuador air force jaguars had overwing pylons\missiles

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 14 Jun 2011 08:09

India to Do $2 Bn Deal for Jaguar Engines from Single Vendor

Finally , i though Jaguars will die without heart transplant

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 14 Jun 2011 08:13

Hurrah !!! Finally some Better Sense Prevailing

India to Do $2 Billion Deal for Jaguar Engines from Single Vendor
..:: India Strategic ::..

India to Do $2 Billion Deal for Jaguar Engines from Single Vendor
By Gulshan Luthra
Published : June 2011

New Delhi. The Indian Air Force (IAF) has decided to acquire new engines for its old Jaguar aircraft from a single manufacturer.

IAF’s Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal P V Naik told India Strategic defence magazine in an interview that the Jaguars needed urgent upgrades, and that as there was still considerable life left in the airframes and systems, it was necessary to go ahead with the process as fast as possible.

IAF had actually issued a Request for Proposals (RfP), or tender, in November 2010 to Rolls-Royce, which had provided the Adour 102 engines when the aircraft were acquired beginning 1978 from the then British Aircraft Corporation (BAC), and the US Honeywell, which says it has offered to supply “More Powerful Engines at Competitive Rates.”

Rolls-Royce however opted out recently, and faced with the Single Vendor Situation, the Ministry of Defence Cancelled the RFP.

Air Chief Marshal Naik said that the Government had Now Decided to Process the Case on the “Single Vendor” Basis keeping in View what is Available, and Most Suited, and Negotiate with the Selected Manufacturer.

IAF has nearly 125 twin-engine Jaguars, dubbed as Deep Penetration Strike Aircraft (DPSA) for ground attack role when the deal was initially signed. The Aircraft Can Carry Nuclear Weapons.

Upgrades of the IAF Jaguars would also include modernisation of avionics, sensors for night operations, and integration of helmet mounted sights for the pilots.

The Deal for New Engines, 250-plus, Inclusive of Spares, should be worth more than $ 2 Billion.

Rolls-Royce had offered Adour 821, an upgraded version of Adour 811 engines fitted on IAF’s Hawk advanced trainer jets, While Honeywell said it would supply the “Lighter and More Powerful” F 125 IN, at present installed on Taiwan’s indigenous defence fighter.

Jaguars were built for the Royal and French air forces. But today, most of them are operated by the IAF and the Royal Air Force of Oman. Indian aeronautical engineers also added overwing pylons on the aircraft to carry French Matra missiles, and this innovation was adopted also by other air forces.

Operationally, IAF deployed the Jaguars in the 1999 Kargil War to destroy fortified positions set up by intruding Pakistani troops on the Indian side of the border High in the Mountains. In Coordination with IAF Mirage 2000, They Dropped both Dumb and Laser Guided Bombs but inside Indian territory.

The UK Royal Air Force (RAF) used the Jaguars to attack the Iraqi troops in the 1991 Gulf War.

© India Strategic

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Jun 2011 09:00

sounds like honeywell will get the deal now. GOI would have no real objection given the IAF concerns.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 14 Jun 2011 09:01

Does this mean it'll be treated as a FMS deal like the howitzers?

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 14 Jun 2011 09:16

Hmm, more damage control after MRCA fallout? I thought single vendor deals are a no no in the new DPP? Could be that people in places of power are having second thoughts. Anyways, I am not so sure about the merits of reengining the Jags at this late stage - at most you'll have a few of them hanging around till 2025, the deal itself will take till around 2015 to complete, a time when MRCA, Tejas etc could easily start taking over DPSA duties.

Ideally I'd rather see $$s spent on the Tejas/MRCA to replace Jags/MiG-27s in the near future. No need to spend such an extravagant amount on reengining an older bird.

CM.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 14 Jun 2011 11:19

This is a welcome development..if RR wanted to hold the deal hostage thinking that to avoid a single vendor situation, the IAF would change its requirements to suit them more, then this will come as a jolt to them..if they thought that this deal didn't make sense for them, then anyway they'd have not replied to the RFP the second time around either. This deal will help in alleviating one of the biggest issues that plagues the Jaguar fleet- its operating performance with a meaningful payload at both medium and high altitudes, which is hampered by its lack of thrust.

This was what an Air International article on IAF's Jaguars had stated

"A senior Jaguar pilot at Ambala described the aircraft as "very stable and comfortable at low level, compared to most of the other aircraft in our inventory. We generally train at 300 ft (91m) and 500 ft (152m). However medium level operations have also started and, as the Jaguars were never designed for this, it is here that the aircraft runs out of thrust in some profiles."

Rolls Royce was proposing the Adour Mk821 rated at 7159 lb (31.8 kN) for a hot day at 3000 ft ASL, an example of which was fitted to an RAF Jaguar that was ground-tested at RAF Cosford, Shropshire with an Indian Govt. rep.

Honeywell is offering the F125IN rated at 9850 lbs (43.8 kN) with reheat for a standard day at AMSL. Honeywell demonstrated the engine in response to a request by IAF. The demonstration took place in HAL's engine test cell at its B'lore plant in Nov 2007 (already nearly 4 years have passed since then!). The F125IN was mounted on the test stand used for the existing Jaguar engine. Installation and integration was completed by a joint HAL/Honeywell team. All test goals were met."

It now makes a lot of sense to just go ahead with the FMS sale (will also avoid corruption allegations) and get these engines into service to allow the Jaguars to carry out stand-off strikes or precision strikes while operating at safer medium and higher altitudes.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 14 Jun 2011 18:45

If the new engines give the jaguar the one thing it was lacking - it might be worth to order more jags .

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 14 Jun 2011 18:56

Cain Marko wrote: Ideally I'd rather see $$s spent on the Tejas/MRCA to replace Jags/MiG-27s in the near future. No need to spend such an extravagant amount on reengining an older bird.

CM.

I disagree. That will take a lot more $$ than 2 Billion. The very fact that the IAF is so interested in re-engining the Jags means that they expect to find them useful even after the MRCA and Tejas start coming in. The IAF will have to retire most of the Mig-27s and 21s in the coming years. That is quite a huge fleet. The Jags are definitely needed and the new engines will give them flexibility to operate in high altitude regions where they might be facing problems currently. I would say this deal is nearly as important as the Mig-29 and M2K upgrade deals.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Jun 2011 19:26

indeed its a no brainer. what took so long. the 39 new build jaguars could perhaps be supplemented with another 30-40 new airframes since the production line is well established at HAL. this might help if some the oldest Jags have reached end of airframe life and cannot be uprated with this new engine.

manum · Post by **manum** » 14 Jun 2011 19:45

If you see in google earth...the Nepal border where the most nearest airbase is, is Gorakhpur and this airbase I had seen operated Mig 27's and now I can see Jaguars only nothing else...While Migs going out fast.

If you check the India-Nepal_china border from Gorakhpur point...the China border from this region is merely 250 km max...we still can not give up Jaguars and Mirage's (not counting MKI's) which are our nuclear delivery platforms...As we need the tested platforms for it...

manum · Post by **manum** » 14 Jun 2011 19:58

never mind...

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 14 Jun 2011 20:15

The two comparisons are really apples and oranges. The Adour is at 1 KM elevation above SL on a hot day while Honeywell is at SL on a 'standard' day. The difference of 1/3rd notwithstanding. I guess what is important is how much is the thrust at 15000 - 21000 feet in the Tibet platue. If the gain is not much, it may not be worthwhile. If the gains are good and Jag is not flying like a rock at that altitude with these engines; then we have 150 more planes to commit to Northern Borders. But I hope this is not one of the corrupt deals, where we do not gain anything and spend 2 billion.
Thanks,
fanne

Adour Mk821 rated at 7159 lb (31.8 kN) for a hot day at 3000 ft ASL vs F125IN rated at 9850 lbs (43.8 kN) with reheat for a standard day at AMSL (Mean See Level)

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Jun 2011 20:29

the key thing is how much did it generate in bangalore which being 900m above sea level is 2700 ft and comparable to the raf base. if the 9850 lb @ AMSL is for bangalore then honeywell is definitely more powerful in equal conditions. I feel there is a missing typo before AMSL which is how many feet AMSL ... (2700ft is bangalore)

american marketing is rock solid - they even have a microsite for this project with full brochure
http://www.honeywellforjaguar.com/

they also have the Vayu article on the IAF jags including a 1979 one for service induction
http://www.honeywellforjaguar.com/downl ... aguars.pdf

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Jun 2011 20:58

I hate this damage control paki thoughts.. why are we thinking that way. It should be technical whatsoever be it FMS route or open tender.

q: are jag airframe going to be strengthened to take up additional wet thrusts?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Jun 2011 21:00

Singha wrote:the key thing is how much did it generate in bangalore which being 900m above sea level is 2700 ft and comparable to the raf base. if the 9850 lb @ AMSL is for bangalore then honeywell is definitely more powerful in equal conditions. I feel there is a missing typo before AMSL which is how many feet AMSL ... (2700ft is bangalore)

AM Philip Rajkumar has an article about DARIN I upgrade in Vayu and as a test pilot he says that making a Jaguar take off in Bangalore carrying 4 x 1000 lb bombs and 2 drop tanks in Bangalore summer at 37 deg C and Bangalore altitude (about 1000 metres above MSL) was a hair raising experience.

I need to fish out the article - but apparently the Jaguar would only just take off.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 14 Jun 2011 21:02

'the jaguar takes off only because the earth is round' seems to be a popular comment.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 14 Jun 2011 21:50

Pilatus PC-7 Mk-II may be IAF's choice for $1bn trainer aircraft deal.

The Swiss Pilatus PC-7 Trainer aircraft may turn out to be the aircraft of choice for the Indian Air Force (IAF) in its global tender for basic trainer aircraft. According to reports, two other models, the Korean Aerospace KT-1 and the Hawker-Beechcraft T-6C Texan-II make up the final short list of three aircraft out of the six models which participated in flight trials last year.

The Pilatus PC-7 Turbo Trainer is a low-wing tandem-seat training aircraft, manufactured by Pilatus Aircraft of Switzerland. The aircraft is capable of all basic training functions including aerobatics, instrument, tactical and night flying. It has been selected by more than twenty air forces as their ab initio trainer.

According to defence sources, the technical evaluation round came to an end in May this year. Financial evaluation commenced soon thereafter and the Pilatus PCT has apparently offered the lowest bid amongst the three.

There were originally six contenders in the fray: Grob G-120 TP, Embraer's EMB-312 Super Tucano, Korea Aerospace Industries KT-1, Finmeccanica's M-311, Beechcraft T-6C and Pilatus PC-7. These were amongst a dozen companies sent a request for proposal (RfP) by the IAF.

The deal for the basic trainer may well be worth about $1 billion as the acquisition order may be for 200 aircraft. A portion of this order will be supplied by the selected vendor, while the rest is likely to be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) in India under licence.

Introduced in 1994, the PC-7 Mk-II has exceptional standard of equipment, performance and cost-effectiveness in this class of training aircraft, according to its manufacturer. As a training platform, the docile behaviour of the PC-7 Mk-II provides confidence to inexperienced cadets.

With its highly cost-efficient Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6A-25C engine, it provides the lowest engine operating costs of all turbo-prop trainer aircraft. Over 500 aircraft (PC-7 & PC-7 Mk-II) have been sold to 21 air forces around the world.

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 14 Jun 2011 21:52

Singha wrote:the key thing is how much did it generate in bangalore which being 900m above sea level is 2700 ft and comparable to the raf base. if the 9850 lb @ AMSL is for bangalore then honeywell is definitely more powerful in equal conditions. I feel there is a missing typo before AMSL which is how many feet AMSL ... (2700ft is bangalore)

american marketing is rock solid - they even have a microsite for this project with full brochure
http://www.honeywellforjaguar.com/

they also have the Vayu article on the IAF jags including a 1979 one for service induction
http://www.honeywellforjaguar.com/downl ... aguars.pdf

The first honeywell link clearly mentions

"Performance at Sea Level Static, Standard Day, Nominal Engine"

Some more digging tells that 821 would have had a high degree of commonality with 871 (used on Hawk). It could very well be that 821 is just 871 with an afterburner. 871 produces dry thrust of 6000 lbf (26.7kN) while the F125IN produces 6230 lbf (27.7). cannot comment on the wet thrust though but should be similar for both. So, both engines provide similar thrust but the F125IN is reportedly ligther (?).

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 14 Jun 2011 22:18

If the thrust and T/W ratio of both engines had been similar, RR would not have withdrawn from the tender. They would only withdraw if they felt they didn't have a chance of winning it because the competitor had a better product.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Jun 2011 22:47

I always think P&W is higher on the quality compared to GE, though they are stepping up.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 14 Jun 2011 23:13

fanne wrote:The two comparisons are really apples and oranges. The Adour is at 1 KM elevation above SL on a hot day while Honeywell is at SL on a 'standard' day. The difference of 1/3rd notwithstanding. I guess what is important is how much is the thrust at 15000 - 21000 feet in the Tibet platue. If the gain is not much, it may not be worthwhile. If the gains are good and Jag is not flying like a rock at that altitude with these engines; then we have 150 more planes to commit to Northern Borders. But I hope this is not one of the corrupt deals, where we do not gain anything and spend 2 billion.
Thanks,
fanne

Adour Mk821 rated at 7159 lb (31.8 kN) for a hot day at 3000 ft ASL vs F125IN rated at 9850 lbs (43.8 kN) with reheat for a standard day at AMSL (Mean See Level)

yes I clearly bolded those parts due to the fact that one was said to be at 3000 ft ASL on a hot day whereas the other was for a standard day at AMSL.

But the F125IN met its test goals on the engine bench and its not a paper engine, having been in service for a long time on the IDF fighters. Besides, these quoted benefits are amazing (even if only brochure specs), and a huge improvement over the current Adour Mk811.

Enhanced mission capabilities:

23% shorter high – hot takeoffs
17-40% higher thrust
Greater mission range
Faster climbs to 20,000 feet without afterburner
36% extended fuel range
Increased combat survivability – auto re-start after flame out

Technical superiority with increased performance:

Drop-fit replacement
555 pounds lighter than current aircraft configuration
4,400 pounds greater high – hot takeoff payload
Decreased pilot workload, increased safety
Increased pilot safety – F124 – F125 has 500,000 hours without a loss of a single aircraft due to engine failure
Decreased pilot workload – Engine FADEC, EMS

Improved reliability and reduced life-cycle costs:

Greater time between maintenance
2,000 hours minimum time between overhaul
Lower cost maintenance
Reduced fuel consumption
Rupees 7,000 Crores (US$1.5 billion) in reduced life-cycle costs

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 15 Jun 2011 00:19

Comparing with the present Jag engine (811)

Code: Select all

                                   Adour 811     |       Adour 871      |    F125IN
*****************************************************************************************
Dry Thrust (kN)                    24.5                     26.7              27.7

Wet Thrust (kN)                   37.37                      -                 43.81

Weight (kg)                        794                     589.2              660

sfc (kg/hr / kgf)                  0.8                         -                .775

Since Adour 821 is said to share a lot of parts with 871 (which is non afterburning) it's weight will be more than 871. If Adour 106 (also afterburning engine based on 871 and is heavier than 811 at 809 kg) then 821 might actaully be heavier.

So, weight might be the main reason that F125IN has an advantage.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 15 Jun 2011 01:41

It was such a no brainer that RR decided to not even bother about competing. they were hoping that it'll be re-engining deal but IAF chose to call it new engine for Jaguar and that was clear indication that IAF is not interested in buying a lemon just because you sold us one before

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 15 Jun 2011 02:11

Gurneesh wrote:So, weight might be the main reason that F125IN has an advantage.

Try not to forget the sizing issues as well. I might be mistaken here, but a cursory glance (read: wiki) suggests that the F-125 has a 910 mm Fan diameter whereas the other two RR engines are around the 570 mm diameter (811 is at 564mm). Length scales appropriately. Is Honeywell proposing a major redesign of the Jaguar aft structures? Or am I misreading the numbers here?

P.S.: That higher fan diameter is where the higher T/W rating is coming from, it seems. But internal spacing might not allow this to happen readily, hence requiring some re-work. Also am not sure about the airflow situations (read: intake adjustments) for the 125N. Is that also on the cards from Honeywell?

Regards

-Vivek

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 15 Jun 2011 02:23

Honeywell claims it is a drop-in replacement.......but Ahuja sahib, you should be the one educating us abduls about engines not asking questions like a newbie. If you got time please separate man and boy so we all can see through the sales pitch obfuscation