Indian Army: News & Discussion

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rohitvats
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

rajrang wrote: <SNIP>

Very well said!

Recently I tried to echo similar sentiments to yours, though on a smaller scale than the 30 divisions that BK has referred to, and got attacked by our BR colleague, was convicted of "dhoti shivering" - and spent my limited time entangled in the details of such possibilities including acclimatization. I did not have the time or eloquence to write in the way you have. As you have pointed out unfortunately "maximalist" view points are not taken seriously in India. I wonder if this is why India has got invaded repeatedly throughout history. Do you know how many days it took China to move 50,000 men over 1600 miles. Was altitude a factor?
Please don't hide your lack of knowledge behind the grand words like "maximalist" position. BK has been branded as such because of his views on N-weapons and the very hard line he wants India to approach.

In your case, you simply had no clue of what you were writing. Whether you understand this or not - points like how many aircraft used and type to move 50K soldiers over 1600miles matters to any serious student of military issues - especially, to understand how it will impact India. If you cannot fathom these things, it is your problem.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by ticky »

Paging Rohitvats

Saar, just a small query. IA conducts regular div/corp level wargames & maneuvers on the western front/plains but do they do same in the mountains, I mean do units facing off the chinese do this kinds of exercise at large formation scale coz news of such things rarely come out.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Shrinivasan »

rohitvats wrote:A 50% increase in the strength of the IA points to sure-shot increase in the strength of IA...so, all the talk about and news about new divisions (+Corps HQ) to be added to the IA are for sure true.....As I said some where else, this decade (2010-2020) will be the game-changer for the Services.
Mooh me shakkar... This 50% increase will have multiple ripple effect benefits, more promotion opportunities, better officer staffing for existing combat formations and above all CREATION OF NEW FORMATIONS like Strike Corps, Mountain divisions ityaadi. Would it also result in more opportunities for PBORs to become NCOs?
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Shrinivasan »

ticky wrote:Saar, just a small query. IA conducts regular div/corp level wargames & maneuvers on the western front/plains but do they do same in the mountains, I mean do units facing off the chinese do this kinds of exercise at large formation scale coz news of such things rarely come out.
IA/IAF/IN conduct exercises in different theaters throughout the year. Many of these (particularly Brigade level ones) don't get reported / announced. Exercises conducted in the Western borders are announced to TSP because of the Piss process. Exercises conducted in Arunachal or Assam or the hills of Uttarakhand come out (but less frequently)
IA has a regular schedule in the western front facing TSP to finetune Cold Start (or whatever they call the new doctrine) - Rapid mobilization doctrine!!!
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by rajrang »

rohitvats wrote:
rajrang wrote: <SNIP>

Very well said!

Recently I tried to echo similar sentiments to yours, though on a smaller scale than the 30 divisions that BK has referred to, and got attacked by our BR colleague, was convicted of "dhoti shivering" - and spent my limited time entangled in the details of such possibilities including acclimatization. I did not have the time or eloquence to write in the way you have. As you have pointed out unfortunately "maximalist" view points are not taken seriously in India. I wonder if this is why India has got invaded repeatedly throughout history. Do you know how many days it took China to move 50,000 men over 1600 miles. Was altitude a factor?
Ple you understand this or not - points like how many aircraft used and type to move 50K soldiers over 1600miles matters to any serious student of military issues - especially, to understand how it will impact India. If you cannot fathom these things, it is your problem.
Rohitvats,

Please do not dismiss my comments as those of someone who has no knowledge or cannot fathom such things. I had simply asked a question of the previous poster how much time it took to move 50 K soldiers over 1600 miles according to whatever source. Why is this irritating you? The answer could be 10 days or 10 months. I am simply asking a question. BK had talked of moving 30 divisions in a month. A few weeks back I was considering 2 to 4 divisions in about 10 days time a few years down the road. Maybe even that is too unrealistic. Perhaps a better way of posing the problem would be something along the lines of "how many shooting soldiers can China move to a specific location on India's borders in let us say 2 weeks time a few years down the road?" If the answer is 500 then maybe we do not have to worry at all. But if it is 5000 in about 5 years time then maybe this information could be useful. I also agree that my lack of knowledge is my problem and that is fair.

I am very interested in military matters particularly concerning India. I understand what a maximalist position is. Let me emphasize I have not read as much as many on this forum, especially someone such as yourself who by the way I have admired for your knowledge, in part because I do not have the time. But cumulatively over the decades I have accumulated a reasonable general knowledge particularly when I was younger. Every once in a few weeks I disengage myself from whatever I am doing and try to take part in some of the BR deliberations. I am not comparing myself to BK, but I do have viewpoints that correspond to what you would call "a maximalist position", even though in my (admittedly subjective) viewpoint it is simply a "prudent position". I do honestly believe that strength to meet future worst case scenarios (even if it is still hypothetical at the present instant) is the best policy.

By the way can you kindly point me to a link that will give me more information about how many in a given division are doing the shooting? I have searched google but cannot find any source. I was under the impression that the teeth to tail ratio was usually around 70%. Thanks in advance.

Regards
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by VinodTK »

Bangalore to house another ASC Centre
Bangalore will house one more defence establishment with the relocation of the Gaya-based Army Service Corps (ASC) Centre (North) to the city.

The ASC Centre (North), which was based in Gaya for the last 36 years, moved to Bangalore earlier this month following the Indian Army’s plan to set up an Officer’s Training Academy.

Upon relocating,the North Centre would be based at the premises of ASC Center and College, Bangalore and at Iblur in the city outskirts.

“Bangalore’s congenial climate provides an ideal training atmosphere and is suited for all-year-round training. Its proximity to the hills also helps in giving realistic mountain training to all ASC personnel, especially drivers and animal transport handlers. Besides the training, all personnel in ASC can be synergised with both centers co-located. This gives better access to both to benefit from each other’s training infrastructures as well as instructors,” said ASC Centre and College deputy commandant and chief instructor Major General Jaideep Mitra.

The role of the Gaya centre was to impart basic military and technical training to the mechanical and animal transport recruits.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by ticky »

cheenum wrote:
ticky wrote:Saar, just a small query. IA conducts regular div/corp level wargames & maneuvers on the western front/plains but do they do same in the mountains, I mean do units facing off the chinese do this kinds of exercise at large formation scale coz news of such things rarely come out.
IA/IAF/IN conduct exercises in different theaters throughout the year. Many of these (particularly Brigade level ones) don't get reported / announced. Exercises conducted in the Western borders are announced to TSP because of the Piss process. Exercises conducted in Arunachal or Assam or the hills of Uttarakhand come out (but less frequently)
IA has a regular schedule in the western front facing TSP to finetune Cold Start (or whatever they call the new doctrine) - Rapid mobilization doctrine!!!
Belated thanks for the info.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Anabhaya »

Paging Rohit!
Need to get in touch with you. Where do I email?
Alternatively you can shoot a line to amargov AT gmail dot com if you'd be so kind.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by ShauryaT »

Rohitvats, Rajrang: Have responded in the Managing China Thread thread, as it will be OT here.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

Anabhaya wrote:Paging Rohit!
Need to get in touch with you. Where do I email?
Alternatively you can shoot a line to amargov AT gmail dot com if you'd be so kind.
Mail sent.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by ASPuar »

^^

Yeah, but the headline is (as always), misleading. The court was asking the question about the CRPF. The court said, if the army personnel can be tried in a disturbed area, why can CRPF personnel, accused of a crime not be?
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

^^^And the best part is, the councel has claimed immunity under CRPF Act and not AFSPA.....DDM at work, as usual!!!
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by parshuram »

A question for gurus what are advanced hand to hand combat tactics employed by indian army esp indian special forces ? Israeli's employ kreg meva, chinese shaolin kung fu ..... And what about pakistani army ?

Thanks in advance
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Gaur »

^^
I don't think details regarding that are available openly...at least for PARA SF and MARCOS.
Regarding Garuds, a show was recently aired which covered that in good detail.
http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/jai-hi ... uds/195842


Also, you can find a few pics of PARA SF performing martial arts. Except that, there is hardly any open source info available.

No idea about Pakis though.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by brvarsh »

Looking at the kata the Garuds were doing in the video it seems is a Karate do.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Raja Bose »

parshuram wrote:A question for gurus what are advanced hand to hand combat tactics employed by indian army esp indian special forces ? Israeli's employ kreg meva, chinese shaolin kung fu ..... And what about pakistani army ?

Thanks in advance
There is no one specific martial art that is taught since each has its strengths and weaknesses. A number of techniques are taught and fall under the auspices of unarmed combat (called UAC). This is different from the usual training of martial arts where form, style etc. as dictated by one specific martial art are given importance. Here it is more about the ensuring the jawan's effectiveness in specific use cases that is important rather than how it looks during chipanda-style battalion-sized demos etc. Israel's Krav Maga probably comes close to this concept and frankly though some will disagree, quite a bit of it is pretty much brawling.

BTW, a lot of the martial arts demos shown by SF will not be considered UAC and not meant for combat use. They may be part of their overall fitness regime or done by the units' sportspersons.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Craig Alpert »

Army wants operational control of ITBP for better border posture against China
NEW DELHI: With Chinese troops continuing with their aggressive "transgressions'' across the Line of Actual Control (LAC), the Army wants the Indo-Tibetan Border Police (ITBP) to be placed under its "operational control'' for better border management.

Defence ministry sources said the Army contends India's border management posture will acquire the much-needed "cohesion, coordination and synergy'' required to counter the People's Liberation Army's "offensive'' posture if ITBP is placed under its jurisdiction.


The Army feels such a step will prove operationally productive as well as ensure optimal utilisation of resources especially in eastern Ladakh where ITBP, one of the seven central police forces under the home ministry, is responsible for border management of 826 km of the LAC.

The Army is also present in depth along that stretch but it can exercise operational control over ITBP only during the outbreak of hostilities.

This is not the first time the Army has moved for getting ITBP under its operational wings along the 4,057-km LAC for "single-point control'' as well as effective "border-guarding'' rather than mere "border-policing''.

The defence ministry had six years ago taken up the Army proposal with the home ministry and the national security advisor, among others, but it all came to naught. Interestingly, one of the main objectors at that time was the external affairs ministry, which felt that it would needlessly antagonize China.Time to grow balls hopefully the External minister this time won't have any such objections!

China has had no such compunctions. It continues with its policy of frequent troop incursions all along the three LAC sectors -- western (Ladakh), middle (Uttarakhand, Himachal) and eastern (Sikkim, Arunachal).

Officially, India often downplays Chinese intrusions, holding that they take place due to "differing perceptions'' of the still-unresolved LAC. The fact, however, remains that China has been indulging in aggressive border patrolling for several years now to strengthen its claim over disputed areas and put pressure on India.

India's overall border management policy has remained largely muddled over the years despite having a porous land border of 14,880-km, running through 17 states and touching six countries. Moreover, it took the 26/11 terror attacks in Mumbai for the government to rethink security of the country's 5,422-km coastline and 1,197 islands.

The large land borders with both China and Pakistan, as also Myanmar, Bangladesh and Nepal, continue to suffer from a lack of coordination among the different forces manning the border outposts, ranging from BSF, ITBP and Sashastra Seema Bal to Assam Rifles and of course the Army, which report to different bosses and ministries.

Incidentally, both the Border Management Task Force in the aftermath of the 1999 Kargil conflict, and the subsequent Group of Ministers' report on "reforming the national security system'' in 2001, had strongly recommended the principle of "one border one force''.

"Multiplicity of forces on the same borders has inevitably led to the lack of accountability as well as problems of command and control,'' held the crucial GoM report. But since then, both the previous NDA and the present UPA regimes have taken only half-hearted steps to plug the gaps. :cry: sad state of affairs!
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by shiv »

parshuram wrote: And what about pakistani army ?
Wrong thread. They use the ancient art of gubodjinn
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by ASPuar »

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 918583.cms

Army asks for operational control of ITBP on Indo-China border, in face of aggressive chinese posture.

Apparently, this was earlier also requested, but nixed on the grounds that it will antagonise China, by the External Affairs Ministry!

I wish people who dont know anything about defence would keep their noses out of the subject, and not cause operational problems!
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

I remember IA asking for operational control of Assam Rifles and NEFA in late 50s when the situation was becoming hot with the Chinese.....that time, it was the MOD led by Mr. Menon who turned down the suggestion and asked IA to mind its own business.....somethings never change.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Juggi G »

Indian Cold Start Nuked by Pakistan ?
Brigadier Arun Bajpai
Native of Madhya Pradesh, Fought both 1965 and 1971 Indo Pak wars
Pakistan has developed two short range (60km) nuclear capable missiles Hataf-9 and NASER. They are easy to transport and are capable of launching small yield plutonium tipped nuclear warheads. These missiles are basically called tactical nuclear missiles. They are meant to be used in close ranges in actual battlefield against attacking enemy armoured columns and ground troops.

Actually these have been Supplied to Pakistan by China.

In other words, China is also Accepting the Fact that it is Part of this Game of Tactical Nuclearisation of Battle Field.

At the height of the Cold War, when two nuclear superpowers America and Soviet Russia were breathing down each others neck. Russia had its hundreds of Armored Divisions ready to drive into Europe at an instant notice , even at that time nobody banked on tactical nuclear weapons to blunt Russian Armored thrust because it was thought that once started, the dynamics of these tactical nuclear strikes will give way to Strategic Nuclear strikes that nobody will be able to control .

To blunt Indian Cold Start concept, Pakistan in its Stupidity is ready to cross this Nuclear threshold from the word go. It simply means that Pakistani Army wants to play with fire in the belief that they will be able to scare Indian political masters from ordering surgical strikes within Pakistan in the event of another Mumbai type attack.

If we abandon our Cold Start concept in view of this new development or give any impression to Pakistan that their missiles have made us rethink about our proactive policy of surgical strikes, then we should be ready to face many more Mumbai type of attacks. So what is the answer? If we have not faced another 26/11 after November 2008, the credit to a large extent also goes to our Cold Start concept and Pakistani belief that Indian public pressure will force Indian Government to react militarily.

India also needs to immediately develop Tactical Nuclear Missiles with clear cut policy that will be used if Pakistan is foolish enough to use them in the battle field. India should also go for Total Mechanization of its Battle Groups to be used in Cold Start because only Mechanized Groups can survive this new threat on battle field. It is also necessary that Indian Army must start giving extensive nuclear warfare training to their battle field troops.

At strategic level India must go all out to make operational its nuclear powered Submarine Arihant at the earliest and produce them in numbers.

Pakistan’s Biggest Strategic Weakness is that in its Entire Length it is nowhere more than 350km Broad.

So even the short range Indian nuclear capable missile Prithvi can cover entire Pakistan. Apart from producing and ringing Pakistan with Prithvi and Agni 1 (700 km range) missiles India should at any time have three to four nuclear submarines hiding under water in Arabian Sea ready to launch their nuclear missiles at an instant notice.

Indian Nuclear submarines hiding deep under in Arabian sea will pose a existential threat to Pakistan. India should then tell Pakistan that if they use tactical nuclear missiles in battlefield against India’s Cold Start, India will not only use its tactical nuclear missiles but also its submarine-based Strategic Nuclear missiles which will wipe out Pakistan.

It is important that India now must think of all options including ,Military, to Neutralize Pakistan.

The growing China-Pakistan nexus is dangerous for India.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by ASPuar »

rohitvats wrote:I remember IA asking for operational control of Assam Rifles and NEFA in late 50s when the situation was becoming hot with the Chinese.....that time, it was the MOD led by Mr. Menon who turned down the suggestion and asked IA to mind its own business.....somethings never change.
Dear god.

All I can say is:

“Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it” - George Santayana

And this is equally the current lot of General's fault. By letting them selves get steamrolled by various quarters, and not forcefully making their professional advice understood, they are letting the nation down, because of their own timorousness.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Lalmohan »

i find the brigadiers message confusing. if we are going to escalate to strategic, we don't need tactical nuclear weapons per se... it surely cannot be cost/effective?
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

I agree, there is no need to dance in step with pakistan on their way up the escalation ladder. our choice should be simple, we do not step on the ladder first but if we do the first stop is at the top. end of story.

trying to match this mythical tactical nuke does not make sense for us.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by chackojoseph »

Actually, Only tac nukes can be launched in pakistan Punjab. Strategic nukes (means fat ladies) is counter productive. We need to nuke only the paki Punjab.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by rajanb »

Agree guys but when we heard of Pakis boasting about Nasr, we should have turned around and said "Our no first use policy stands, except in the case of Pakistan" Wonder how that would have worked?
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by VinodTK »

India to hold massive war game this winter
This time, the Bhopal-based 21 Corps will be the formation that will be exercising in the Rajasthan desert sometime in October-December, top sources at Army Headquarters told IANS.

The month-long exercise is aimed at building the capacities of the strike formation in delivering deadly blows to the enemy forces in a short offensive by breaching the hostile army’s defenses and capturing important strategic assets deep inside enemy territory.

The war game will enable the 21 Sudarshan Chakra Corps to showcase its firepower through battle tanks and artillery guns, supported by Indian Air Force (IAF) fighter jets, attack helicopters and transport aircraft, with nearly 20,000 troops involved in the exercise.
:
This year will witness a unique occurrence, when three of the army’s important corps would have trained hard to perfect the warfare doctrines that Indian armed forces have drafted keeping in mind jointness in operations of the army and air force during war.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Shrinivasan »

Rahul M wrote:trying to match this mythical tactical nuke does not make sense for us.
The Jury is still out about whether Pukes have tactical nukes, let alone something small enough to fit into a 300mm racket. Desh tested multiple tactical nukes during Shakti-II, so we already have tactical nukes. But we might just use 20-50KT bums to wipe out the scum rather than hit an armoured column with tactical nukes.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Juggi G »

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by chandanus »

All i hear these days is IAF intends\signed XYZ Billion $$ deal and Navy issuing RFP's of XYZ Billion $$$ deal ......Wondering ...is Army is getting any new weapons or not ??? :roll: :roll:
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Singha »

army is keeping all funds to buy more T-90 :D
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Shrinivasan »

chandanus wrote:Wondering ...is Army is getting any new weapons or not ??? :roll: :roll:
Army has a major task raising its ranks.. addition of Mountain Divisions, raising a Mountain Strike Corps. I think Army is going through a consolidation phase... With induction of Pinaka Regiment and Arjun regiments, ALH Druv Mark III is decent numbers has kept the Army ticking... They have been lusting after Light Artillery, Stryker, ATGM etc. Expect some action from the Army in 2011-12 FY year.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Shrinivasan »

When will the FICV trials happen? any news on Brahmos, Akash Regiments?
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by Shrinivasan »

chandanus wrote:Wondering ...is Army is getting any new weapons or not ??? :roll: :roll:
BTB, I forgot, they have been inducting a good number of T-90s and BMP-IIs. They have ordered around 800 Tatra Trucks. Jingos would be happy if they order couple of Regiments of Arjun Tanks and NAMICAs (with few thousand Nags)... They have also ordered a good number of Brahmos and 2 Regiments of Akash SAMs.
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Post by chandanus »

cheenum wrote:
chandanus wrote:Wondering ...is Army is getting any new weapons or not ??? :roll: :roll:
BTB, I forgot, they have been inducting a good number of T-90s and BMP-IIs. They have ordered around 800 Tatra Trucks. Jingos would be happy if they order couple of Regiments of Arjun Tanks and NAMICAs (with few thousand Nags)... They have also ordered a good number of Brahmos and 2 Regiments of Akash SAMs.
cHEEnumji...TATRA trucks are chai-biscoot stuff for any army..no big deal .....waht i am asking is..are they plannning to get some premium wine like stuff ....

These days ...seems IAF has literally hijacked the whole defence budget !!!!
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