Transport Aircraft for IAF

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 15 Jun 2011 06:21

Air India seems to be having money issues and they have all those Boeing planes on order. We should tell boeing that it is either 737's for Phalcon use or reduction in the order (by whatever number of extra Phalcons we want).

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Jun 2011 06:32

the A330 defeats the A321/B737 family handily in sheer beastly psyops size (always a important brf criteria for platinum coated platforms) and the more practical norms of endurance, volume, payload ... moreover its refueler version exists and australia has already taken delivery http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Securi ... 307009403/

granted boeing has decades of exp with rotodomes but airbus would have studied the nato awacs (C-135 based) long ago and know what to do , they arent pushovers in industrial spying. so they can get it done just like bereiv came up with the fixed rotodome.

A330 is best imo.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 15 Jun 2011 11:18

Yeah A330 both for next batch (and future batches) of refuellers and AEW.

bart · Post by **bart** » 15 Jun 2011 13:23

We need an A330 based J-Stars clone too, with some smaller mini-J-Stars COIN command centers based on a smaller platform.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 15 Jun 2011 16:36

Boeing to Build 10 C-17 Airlifters for Indian Air Force

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 15 Jun 2011 18:49

chackojoseph wrote:Boeing to Build 10 C-17 Airlifters for Indian Air Force

Nice and according to Boeing the delivery will in 2013 and 2014. So are they going to deliver all the 10 C-17's in these two years or is the delivery going to start in 2013/14 ?

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 15 Jun 2011 18:51

IAF looks for more C-130J aircrafts.

The Indian Air Force is actively pursuing the purchase of more transport aircrafts, include Lockheed Martin's C-130J Super Hercules, to bolster its strategic lift capabilities, even as it seeks to move an increasing number of troops and military equipment along the Line of Actual Control, which the country shares with China.

"Yes, we would like to have more C-130J and C-17 aircrafts. We will start with the statement of case soon," outgoing Air Chief Marshal PV Naik said during a press briefing held at the IAF's Headquarters Training Command on Wednesday.

The Air Chief's statement comes six months after ET had reported that Lockheed Martin had held talks with New Delhi for a follow-on order for six 130 J Super Hercules aircrafts.

The aircrafts, which are reputed to be the best in its class, were purchased for $962.7 million, and have been customised for Special Forces operations.

Naik, who will be replaced by Air Marshal NAK Browne as the country's Air Chief, also said that any such deal would be negotiated through the Foreign Military Sales route.

The heavy-lifters are seen as critical to the IAF's needs as it looks to replace its Soviet-era IL-76 transport aircraft fleet, which have been dogged by a lack of serviceability and spares, and are also coming to the end of their operational lifespan.

"The IL, which is a 40-tonne plus aircraft, as a fleet has served us very well, but it is aging now. So, one strategy is their up-gradation and overhauling, but they do not have too much life left. The other strategy is the purchase of the C-17 aircrafts, which carries twice the load of an Ilyushin, and has the advantage of landing on shorter air strips," Naik.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Jun 2011 20:25

imo 6 x MC130J is enough for special ops/paradrop role at present - let us setup a joint SOCOM and bring all SF units and doctrine under a joint chief.

the further C-130J should be the cheaper cargo version without the special ops kit and kaboodle.....these can supplement the efforts of An32 fleet. 6 is a small number, we should probably aim for 20 cargo versions atleast to form up two new squadrons.

we need the ability to fly in a ton of missiles and EW gear from bangalore,kerala into places like tezpur, demchok and vijaynagar on demand, regardless of weather conditions.

for those of you who wonder why I am yapping about vijaynagara , here is the background...big lizard and its offshoots just LOVES to gherao such places and run their psyops machinery on the defences ... recall dien ben phu...

http://www.hindu.com/fline/fl2620/stori ... 006400.htm

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 15 Jun 2011 20:49

Pratik_S wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:Boeing to Build 10 C-17 Airlifters for Indian Air Force
Nice and according to Boeing the delivery will in 2013 and 2014. So are they going to deliver all the 10 C-17's in these two years or is the delivery going to start in 2013/14 ?

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... /07/06.xml

The 10 aircraft are expected to be delivered in two batches — five aircraft one year and five more the next.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 15 Jun 2011 21:11

Singha wrote:we need the ability to fly in a ton of missiles and EW gear from bangalore,kerala into places like tezpur, demchok and vijaynagar on demand, regardless of weather conditions.

Couple of Squadrons of C130Js along with the upgraded AN-32s would be the backbone of the tactical airlift wing... move Pinakas, Brahmos and Artillery (105mm and 130mm guns) to the remote corners of the north east.

Along with MAFI, IAF should should also take up expansion of AFBs as well as refurbishment of scores of WWII era bases. These old bases are well connected to the rail and road networks (in Bihar, Jharkhan, WB and Assam) and thus could be used as drop-off points for the gig needed in the NE.

C17s and IL-76s can be reserved for more strategic stuff like moving our Aerborne divisions, Agni-IIIs and Agni-Vs to key locations.

arun · Post by **arun** » 15 Jun 2011 21:24

chackojoseph wrote:Boeing to Build 10 C-17 Airlifters for Indian Air Force

Why muck about with the ersatz cut paste job when the real thing is available

.

The Official Boeing Press Release:

Boeing to Build 10 C-17 Airlifters for Indian Air Force

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 15 Jun 2011 22:12

Is there nothing mentioned about the option to buy 6 more C-17s? Go ahead and make it 10 more for a full squadron of the C-17.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 15 Jun 2011 22:15

Mort Walker wrote:Is there nothing mentioned about the option to buy 6 more C-17s? Go ahead and make it 10 more for a full squadron of the C-17.

IAF transport squadrons consist of around 10-12 aircraft IIRC. So 20 C-17s would be two squadrons.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 15 Jun 2011 22:21

astonished to read that unkil has 210 of these bad boys
and
india will be 2nd largest operator!

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 15 Jun 2011 22:44

Vipul wrote:IAF looks for more C-130J aircrafts.
...

Is the special ops version of the plane so expensive? The six aircraft cost almost $1.09 billion($181 million each), while according to wiki, Canada bought 17 C130J-30 for $1.4 billion ($82 million each) and Qatar bought four with spares & training for $393.6 million ($98.4m each )!

Are the ones bought by Canada/Qatar the non-specOps version ??

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 15 Jun 2011 23:00

If that's the case, then I seriously hope that IAF purchases around 100 C-130J non special forces type that can take off from airfields where An-32s can take off in high altitudes and get 50% offset and increase its purchase of C-17s to 30. This will completely take care of Indian armed forces airlift requirements.

If India cannot get the 50% offset, then IAF should go for Embraer 390 or MTA.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Jun 2011 23:39

Mort Walker wrote:Is there nothing mentioned about the option to buy 6 more C-17s? Go ahead and make it 10 more for a full squadron of the C-17.

From the previous page of this thread...

India to buy more than 16 C-17 airlifters
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 850290.cms

...while the government had accorded approval earlier this month to buy 10 aircraft, the air force was now processing a case for six more of these airlifters. At a later date, "we will add some more," he disclosed but did not specify the number.

Reliable sources, however, say the IAF could opt for eight more aircraft, in which case the deal for the C-17s could touch about $10 billion or so.

10 ordered + 6 planned + 8 envisaged = 24 aircraft.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 16 Jun 2011 01:36

Seems reasonable. Wait until the first batch of 5 arrive in 2013 and then exercise the option to buy 6 more in 2014 while the 2nd batch of 5 arrive. In 2015, then order 8 more for 2016. Lets see if Boeing can deliver on-time. One thing for sure, the C-17s will be delivered sooner than the vapor ware of the modified IL-76 ever show up.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 16 Jun 2011 01:41

I would be surprised if Boeing did not deliver on time. They are masters at this game.

Take a look at the C-130 purchase. Delivered on time (IIRC a little earlier!) and on budget.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 16 Jun 2011 01:44

The C-130J is LM, a different company, and they were at a different point on the assembly line.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 16 Jun 2011 01:49

Mort: I know C-130 is from Lockheed Martin, just stating that Boeing and Lockheed Martin more often than not deliver their aircraft on time. They have been in this game for a long time.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 16 Jun 2011 02:03

Agreed. The C-130J and C-17 have been produced in mass numbers and both have got production down exactly. They probably know that if they deliver ahead of time, then IAF will be happy, hence more orders.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 16 Jun 2011 03:23

IAF looks for more C-130J aircrafts

Data point:

The heavy-lifters are seen as critical to the IAF's needs as it looks to replace its Soviet-era IL-76 transport aircraft fleet, which have been dogged by a lack of serviceability and spares, and are also coming to the end of their operational lifespan.

"The IL, which is a 40-tonne plus aircraft, as a fleet has served us very well, but it is aging now. So, one strategy is their up-gradation and overhauling, but they do not have too much life left. The other strategy is the purchase of the C-17 aircrafts, which carries twice the load of an Ilyushin, and has the advantage of landing on shorter air strips," Naik.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 16 Jun 2011 07:20

Rakesh wrote:Mort: I know C-130 is from Lockheed Martin, just stating that Boeing and Lockheed Martin more often than not deliver their aircraft on time. They have been in this game for a long time.

Rakesh, for C130Js, Indian air frames were moved up the production line faster. they sort of leapfrogged over other airframes, here we were seeing a diveres mix of customers. For C17, doing the same is going to be a lot easier. because IAF's (or the FMS) order is going to compete with only uncle's order. Also Boeing might more bring down the production size from 15 frames a year to 10 frames (currently envisaged) and start delivering Indian frames faster (and hoping for repeat orders). JMT.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 16 Jun 2011 07:51

I am not sure as to why the IAF is in such a rush to buy transport/air lift aircraft!
Is it because the border roads are in very bad shape to move troops to face the Chines?
OR
The Russian transport planes in service with IAF are past the retrofit/upgrade state and
India wants to get rid of them ASAP!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Jun 2011 08:05

I think its a mix of both reasons. and these are long lead items - 3 years to delivery, another year to setup and operationalize a sqdn base.

anything that improves our ability to shift things around, deploy from depth and respond to crisis is a deterrence.

I am looking fwd to when the CH53K starts delivery to USMC (156 on order, flight tests scheduled for 2011 start) - we ought to get maybe 50 of these as a heavy lift asset attached to the mountain corps areas. ...just like the P8I we should order in advance of service introduction and get some of the first few frames coming off assembly line.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_C ... r_Stallion

The Sikorsky CH-53K Super Stallion is a large, heavy-lift cargo helicopter currently being developed by Sikorsky Aircraft for the United States Marine Corps. The design features three 7,500 shp (5,590 kW) engines, new composite rotor blades, and a wider cabin than previous CH-53 variants. It will be the largest and heaviest helicopter in the U.S. military.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Jun 2011 08:52

I think its time to bring up a old piskological issue - guwahati and jorhat transport bases should be upscaled into desi ramstein afb . just planes are not enough , they need excellent bases to work from.

not been to jorhat, but guwahati has enough land for a parallel fullsize runway and tens of hectares more of aprons and logistical storage areas...a bigger road around around the civil side to military side can be made.

its time for kimono shiver

*runs away into foxhole*

akimalik · Post by **akimalik** » 16 Jun 2011 09:44

Lalmohan wrote:Is the special ops version of the plane so expensive?

Hi all, some more food for thought. Do we envisage the acquisition of platforms such as the AC-130 with its 102mm howitzer / 120mm mortar?
Could having a Sqn of these, help in providing rapid and highly mobile artillery support?

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 16 Jun 2011 09:56

Singha,
+1 re the Super Stallion. Not sure if the russian mi-26s will offer the same uptime as their US counterparts. Range/payload for the Mi-26 beats out the Super Stallions pretty comprehensively though.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 16 Jun 2011 10:00

*runs away into foxhole*

No need. it is ****** time. And instead of ruining the lovely forests of the northeast with railways and expressways, we should pepper the place with helipads and airbases and start investing seriously in both aero=propulsion as well as new generation light aviation technologies.

and a big mega base is a good idea. military growth often leads the way for civilian growth.

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 16 Jun 2011 10:38

Super Stallion vs Osprey spoof

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 16 Jun 2011 12:22

Chief of Air Staff of the Indian Air Force (IAF), Air Chief Marshal P V Naik's Interview By Gulshan Luthra and Air Marshal Ashok Goel (Retd) for India Strategic Magazine

Transport Aircraft

Notably, IAF has already finalized a deal to acquire 10 Boeing C 17 Globemaster III strategic transport aircraft, and There is a Decision to Add Six and “Some More” Later.

It may be noted that as most deals involve Transfer of Technologies and Offsets, There are Still Additional Costs as the Manufacturers Pass Various Charges Essentially to the Buyer.

• He said that IAF had Already Inducted Two of the Six Special Operations C 130J Super Hercules Aircraft ordered from US Lockheed Martin, and by Feb 2012, all of them would be in the IAF inventory.

The Support Infrastructure is in Place, on Time, he said adding: “There are Plans to Acquire an Additional Six C 130J through the same Foreign Military Sales (FMS) route from the US Government.

AWACS

• Air Chief Marshal disclosed that The Last of the Three Phalcon AWACS Had Arrived in India in March and Deployed.

• Two More AWACS Mounted on IL 76 Platforms Had also Been Ordered.

Air Chief Marshal Naik also said that the Process to Induct More Midair Refuellers was Progressing. EADS’ Airus 330 MRTT and Rosoboronexport’s IL-78 (Mk 90) are Competing.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Jun 2011 12:55

C-130Js are worth acquiring in strength.They are very versatile,proven aircraft and will add to the med. lift capability being carried out as of now by AN-32s (being upgraded).

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 16 Jun 2011 13:08

Philip wrote:C-130Js are worth acquiring in strength.They are very versatile,proven
aircraft and will add to the med. lift capability being carried out as
of now by AN-32s (being upgraded).

Nothing against the 130J. But the aircraft if acquired in numbers will eat into the share of the proposed MTA. Alternatively the MTA can be scrapped and the line for the 130J can be acquired by HAL to meet domestic requirement.

UBanerjee · Post by **UBanerjee** » 16 Jun 2011 13:29

akimalik wrote:
Lalmohan wrote:Is the special ops version of the plane so expensive?
Hi all, some more food for thought. Do we envisage the acquisition of platforms such as the AC-130 with its 102mm howitzer / 120mm mortar?
Could having a Sqn of these, help in providing rapid and highly mobile artillery support?

How does it perform at altitude?

An indigenously developed version of the concept might be useful, as it combines the "airlift" and "artillery" into one package?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 16 Jun 2011 13:42

the gunships are very vulnerable to counter air, they only really work in very secure skies or COIN roles
we wont have the former easily and the latter we don't do to excess

akimalik · Post by **akimalik** » 16 Jun 2011 14:07

Lalmohan wrote:the gunships are very vulnerable to counter air, they only really work in very secure skies or COIN roles
we wont have the former easily and the latter we don't do to excess

first of all, the question to ask is the viability of this idea, that is, will such a Sqn be able to provide effective arty support to our troops at short notice.
I think the vulnerability can then be addressed (if the idea is viable/valid).
So would anyone be interested in discussing the viability of the same?

w.r.t indigenous platforms, well great idea. but which platforms would be suited for this - An-32s?

vishnu.nv · Post by **vishnu.nv** » 16 Jun 2011 14:18

The gunship concept is only effective against a decepticon Scorponok or only in an environment where there is complete air superiority.

Better to go for more helicopter gunships..... IMHO 50 Apache + 200 LCH combo would be optimum.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 16 Jun 2011 20:22

Singha wrote:I think its time to bring up a old piskological issue - guwahati and jorhat transport bases should be upscaled into desi ramstein afb . just planes are not enough , they need excellent bases to work from.

There are multiple options for a Desi Ramstein... We have muliple WWII Era bases in Bihar, Jharkhan, WB area which could be ideal for this. guwahati, johrat, chabua,Lilabari etc could also be choices but they are all nestled among the hills and also vulnerable from lizard droppings...

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 16 Jun 2011 20:26

Juggi G wrote:AWACS Air Chief Marshal disclosed that The Last of the Three Phalcon AWACS Had Arrived in India in March and Deployed.
Two More AWACS Mounted on IL 76 Platforms Had also Been Ordered.

did anyone hear about the III AWACS landing in desh or the subsequent order of TWO Phalcons? it is too good to be true!!! hope it is not DDM, i sincerely hope not.
This one interview by ACM Naik has given updates on so many moving parts!!!