Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 2011

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 17 Jun 2011 03:47

^^ Nice. Now Americans are in the same dilemna we have faced so long. That's the Karmic way of making them understand. But we know the Paki psyche against the Khan. Wait..to fight against India another rainy day, any Paki General will ski downhill given the ultimatum. They will kill their own. No qualms. America is hesitating to serve the ultimatums because it is engaged already in 1 war too many. It;s also realizing the blackmail power of Paki nukes is on them too now, not just ONLY on India. The difference in doctrinal conflict is coming to the fore..however much they may talk American interests in Afghanistan and US alone. The US dosn't want to acknowledge doctrinal conflicts. It's liberalism prevents that. Paki's can see that clearly now. The hesitation they are taking as weakness and at best as something they can milk a bit more. That's going to be the undoing of Pakistan. It will regret it.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 17 Jun 2011 03:51

Acharya wrote:Play the video on the right and you can watch the whole program directly.

I'll try later this evening from home, but maybe its something to do with our firewall, but I don't see any play button when I click that link. All I see on the right is one frame (picture of Walter Anderson at the mike with Wendy, Shuja etc seated to his right) with no play button or anything.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 17 Jun 2011 04:29

harbans wrote:^^ Nice. Now Americans are in the same dilemma we have faced so long. That's the Karmic way of making them understand.

You've got it!. Indian policy has been (since 2001) to make Pakistan an international problem not just an Indian one. Most important that 'loose nukes' pose a far greater threat to the West than to India which is only threatened by 'tight nukes'.

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 17 Jun 2011 04:34

Until Pakistan achieves ICBM capability, it would never be a threat to the west. Yeah, Dirty bomb is there, but nothing like an ICBMs tipped nukes.

What if India decides to follow the US strategy and makes a deal with Pakistan. ICBMs for no terrorists in Kashmir.

That would be a real shame!

Hmmmm....

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 17 Jun 2011 04:49

@Manny ^^^ : "Samsonite Option"

ajit_tr · Post by **ajit_tr** » 17 Jun 2011 04:52

Indian Navy ditches MV Suez, Pakistan comes to rescue

Cargo ship MV Suez, which was recently released by pirates, was attacked again this morning, and when it contacted the Indian Navy for help, their request was turned down, the ship’s captain told dnaindia.com

The Pakistani Navy has dispatched its warship PNS Babur to escort MV Suez safely Salalah in Oman. Food supplies, medicines and water are among the things that the warship is carrying for the exhausted crew members, some of who are ill too.

The captian also confirmed that Pakistani helicopters are now patrolling the area around the ship. "The choppers will stick around for protection till the warship arrives here," Captain Singh said.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 17 Jun 2011 05:10

Cosmo_R wrote:
harbans wrote:^^ Nice. Now Americans are in the same dilemma we have faced so long. That's the Karmic way of making them understand.You've got it!. Indian policy has been (since 2001) to make Pakistan an international problem not just an Indian one. Most important that 'loose nukes' pose a far greater threat to the West than to India which is only threatened by 'tight nukes'.

I think ABV was the mind behind this policy using Kargil oppertunity. He opened the Paki Surstromming can for all to smell and not onlee India. Time and experience gave us the immunity to the Poaksurstrroming smell. Now Poaks are nuisance to us at best but real security threat to "international Communality" who let the Poakdogs out. I am sure that surviving Nuke war, Rebuilding Civlization kind of thinking/threads by Bhai Bandus scare the Pakistan out of many India "experts" advising their policy makers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iebNdCSq ... re=related
For those who have not tried the dish .

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Jun 2011 05:40

CRamS wrote:Yesterday, I heard Paki pasand pervert David Ignatius on NPR (Here & Now Program) praising TSP cooperation and in fact saying that any intelligence service will arrest those who work agianst the state. Absolutely amazing how the same event can be used to demonize or sanctify.

Schaffer's "How Pakistanis negotiate" is a piskological treatise. On BRF, for over a decade we have had people pointing out how the west will do sociological and psychological profiles of others but we SDREs seem too thick to make it into a science. It's not that we don't know. After all if one of us has to deal with a difficult colleague or boss we will soon figure out how the man reacts. That is all there is to this type of piskology. The Americans had figured out long ago - Schaffer only put pen to paper.

The Americans have been dealing with Pakistan like a biradari for decades - taking extra pains to maintain Pakistan's echandeee. For a society like Pakistan it is OK for the top general to be a whore for the US as long as he is not publicly shamed in front of his people. It's like someone's dad being gay but he keeps it a secret for echandee and "log kya kahenge" reasons (Sister won't get a groom)

And that is why Dubya was heaping praise on Pakistan in return for Pakistan's GUBO. Particularly - he extracted stuff from Musharraf that we may never find out but played the game of "Most favored non NATO ally" and "Pakistan has lost more people to terror that anyone else" etc.

Expect praise for Pakistan, An apology to the people of Pakistan/Paki army. Some statement to insult India and piss India off. These things will make Paquis feel better. But they will GUBO after that. If these things don't happen and Pakistan looks intransigent - that means the jihadis are taking over. Expect a coup.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 17 Jun 2011 06:01

shiv wrote:
The Americans have been dealing with Pakistan like a biradari for decades - taking extra pains to maintain Pakistan's echandeee. For a society like Pakistan it is OK for the top general to be a whore for the US as long as he is not publicly shamed in front of his people. It's like someone's dad being gay but he keeps it a secret for echandee and "log kya kahenge" reasons (Sister won't get a groom)

The paki general have an understanding going back to 30 years ago to do exactly like what expected and show dominance in the region. US has made sure that Pak has been zombied into their TFTA.

Expect praise for Pakistan, An apology to the people of Pakistan/Paki army. Some statement to insult India and piss India off. These things will make Paquis feel better. But they will GUBO after that. If these things don't happen and Pakistan looks intransigent - that means the jihadis are taking over. Expect a coup.

Same as before.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 17 Jun 2011 06:05

China waits with open arms for a Pakistan rebuffed by America

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 17 Jun 2011 06:05

Terror leader lives freely near Pakistani capital

saip · Post by **saip** » 17 Jun 2011 06:16

Gerard wrote:China waits with open arms for a Pakistan rebuffed by America

I dont know about open arms but I am sure they are waiting with open fly for GUBO session!

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 17 Jun 2011 06:38

A_Gupta wrote:I believe that the current situation the US finds itself in w.r.t. Pakistan fully follows from Musharraf's speech. No one in the US can pretend to be shocked; they can only acknowledge that they ignored the very clear statement of policy by Musharraf in 2001.

There were two parts to his speech, one English and the other Urdu. He referred to the Treaty of Hudaibayah in his Urdu speech.

Anantha · Post by **Anantha** » 17 Jun 2011 06:39

saip wrote:
Gerard wrote:China waits with open arms for a Pakistan rebuffed by America
I dont know about open arms but I am sure they are waiting with open fly for GUBO session!

It is actually a subtle blackmail by Javed Poruki. It is like give me money or else I will GUBO to the dragon and do anti American activities wherever I can

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 17 Jun 2011 06:44

CRamS wrote:
Acharya wrote:Play the video on the right and you can watch the whole program directly.
I'll try later this evening from home, but maybe its something to do with our firewall, but I don't see any play button when I click that link. All I see on the right is one frame (picture of Walter Anderson at the mike with Wendy, Shuja etc seated to his right) with no play button or anything.

May be, your Javascript is forbidden.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 17 Jun 2011 06:57

Seen on twitter

Pakistan Vs USA a marriage of convenience and divorce is not an option, lets get consul before the neighbors take advantage.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 17 Jun 2011 07:16

From this morning, National Public Radio's Morning Edition:
http://www.npr.org/2011/06/16/137207537 ... g-to-toxic

Pakistan also arrested several people who had given the CIA information about the bin Laden compound. The fact that Pakistan arrested those who helped the United States with the raid illustrates the conflicting priorities of the two countries.

Markey of the Council on Foreign Relations says this has upset many members of the administration and Congress.

"They are baffled by it, they're frustrated by it and they're, many of them, quite angry. The only thing that has kept them from taking more immediate action is that when they ask the question, 'Well, what would be better than this?' or 'How do we solve it?' — there's no clear answer," Markey says.

Nawaz {Shuja Nawaz, director of the South Asia Center at the Atlantic Council} says the struggle for answers won't get any easier. He says just by coincidence, many of the leading Pakistan experts in the Obama administration are leaving office in the next few months.

"In the White House, at the National Security Council ... at the Department of Defense ... and then the top two people in the Office of the Defense Representative in Pakistan, who have developed enormously good personal relationships inside Pakistan," he says. "So there is a wholesale movement of the Pakistan expertise out, and there is apparently not enough expertise in the pipeline."

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 17 Jun 2011 07:22

A_Gupta wrote: He says just by coincidence, many of the leading Pakistan experts in the Obama administration are leaving office in the next few months.

Let them go. At least, the new crop may bring fresher ideas. It can'y get any worse (for India) than what it already is.

jrjrao · Post by **jrjrao** » 17 Jun 2011 07:25

Boston Globe editorial:

Can this marriage be saved?

... rather than ostracize the ISI, the US government should move more assiduously to cultivate it; Pakistan’s strategic importance is simply too great to dismiss. Since divorce is not an option, the two governments and their intelligence branches should engage in some intense marriage counseling. They need each other too much to permit a breakup that would harm the interests of both.

link

jrjrao · Post by **jrjrao** » 17 Jun 2011 07:29

More. This one is a straight dictation from the ISI to Ignatius. If ever the ISI had a poodle that always licked ISI's balls, that poodle is David Ignatius.

End of the love affair with Pakistan

(America needs to show)...a greater respect for Pakistani independence.

Meanwhile, the United States (should) keep supplying F-16s and may replace two P-3 Orion surveillance planes destroyed in a terrorist attack in Karachi last month.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 17 Jun 2011 07:31

Gerard wrote:Terror leader lives freely near Pakistani capital

This article is about Fazlur Rehman Khalil (not to be confused with Jama'at-Ulema-e-Islami Chief, Fazl-ur-Rehman). It expresses surprise at Khalil living in the outskirts of Islamabad and Pakistani authorities being aware of his presence. But, Pakistan had been overt about that, They involved him openly, on behalf of the Government, in negotiating with the Ghazi brothers of Laal Masjid at the peak of the stand-off.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 17 Jun 2011 07:56

Don’t Double Down On a Failed Approach To Pakistan

President Barack Obama could dispatch [Admiral Mike] Mullen to Islamabad with a strong message designed to persuade Pakistan to change course: In exchange for demonstrable efforts by Islamabad to crack down on terrorists and insurgents on its territory, the president would fight for additional military and economic aid, as well as increased access to the U.S. textile market….
And Pakistan should also be made to understand that a failure to change paths could lead to closer U.S. engagement with India. This could include encouraging greater Indian involvement in sensitive areas in Afghanistan. More importantly, Mullen could emphasize that intransigence will mean that the U.S. can no longer treat Islamabad as a friend. Such a change would have inevitable consequences: First, it would make it difficult, if not impossible, to dissuade India from retaliating if it were attacked by Pakistani-backed terrorist groups, as the U.S. did after the 2008 terror strikes in Mumbai. Second, should the U.S. be asked by India for assistance to identify and locate the perpetrators of a future attack, it would be difficult to turn down the request.This hardly seems to represent a substantive change in the U.S. approach to dealing with Pakistan. For years, the U.S. has tied aid to the promise of improved cooperation from the Pakistani military in fighting terrorists. Yet this still hasn’t gotten the U.S. beyond the point where officials are unable to even share basic information with the Pakistani regime about upcoming anti-terror operations. And unless the U.S. winds down the Afghanistan war, it can’t really cut aid because it needs at least limited cooperation from Pakistan to carry on with the conflict.
As for bolstering U.S. support to India, that’s easier said than done. In particular, it would be virtually impossible to promote additional Indian involvement in Afghanistan or endorse retaliatory strikes against Pakistan in case of a terrorist attack because either would seriously destabilize the region.

http://thinkprogress.org/yglesias/2011/ ... -pakistan/

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 17 Jun 2011 08:23

CRamS wrote:
Paranoid delusions? Give me a break. US can create immense trouble for India in a hearbeat over Kashmir. Look at what they have done for 60+ years. Right now they are trying the benign approach: you are on the threshlod of becoming a global superpower of the 21st century but for Kashmir. Do you forget MMS/Mush deal on Kashmir? US strategy is to wean away Kashmir from India through sweet talk and inducements. We on BR should be vigilant of all these game plans, not be dismissive. Nothing paranoid or delusional about it. Every western rag talks about Kashmir as the solution to TSP terrorism. CIA big wigs like Riedel does the same and that too after so much perfidy of TSP has come to light post OBL. And to rub salt to India's wounds we have MMS, Sonia, and their Dog'sVagina have set aside Mumbai and are obsessed with so called "Hindu terrorism". All these events don't trouble you?

CRS ji
we are on the same side here. Let us not make self goals. Covering up 26/11 and magnifying Hindu terrorism is not on the same scale as giving up ones territory especially ones Head. US can call anyone a terrorist as long as it suits them. MMS sings to US tunes, hence we have paeans sung for MMS at dinner parties hosted by US congressmen.It is our misfortune to be unable to field PM candidates who can show the middle finger to US. US is just taking advantage of our incompetence. Plain and Simple. If we had people like Sardar Patel we would have seen US portraying India as Iran and Patel as Stalin. Let us not confuse our incompetence as US power of influence.
US has its limitations.I agree we must be vigilant regarding the designs of US for our region. We must also be aware that Kashmir is an integral part of India and it cannot be separated by whims and fantasies of WKK's or west. It is not upto MMS or Sonia or Obama to create a scenario where India gives up a square feet of land to Pakistan in exchange for anything they are offering. Bringing up the concept of giving up Kashmir will be like playing with cyanide capsule between ones teeth for the government in power. I am not being complacent but Are we not are giving too much credit to US and its power to influence people and countries?
Altair

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 17 Jun 2011 08:26

Look at the remark. What made him think that Indian cant adopt the same attitude?

Thomas Allen Foster · Top Commenter · Boulder, Colorado
Influencing either Pakistan or India is damn near impossible. They understand what's at stake in the region far better than we do. And they will act in their interests regardless of our desires. Rather than try to change their behavior, we should decide which country's behavior is more to our liking and shift towards that country. And yes, that means more cooperation with India and less with Pakistan. But that cooperation will only happen when our interests overlap. With India, we could easily see more naval cooperation in the Indian Ocean to combat piracy. But there will be no cooperation at all on Kashmir

http://thinkprogress.org/yglesias/2011/ ... -pakistan/

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 17 Jun 2011 08:26

Professor Unfair on Ms Shireen Mazari (one of the tweets calling her a snake was deleted):
Might be relevant because of the outgoing and hence new incoming Pakistan experts in the Obama Admin.

Many details 2 be disputed. BUT who hasn't wanted 2 say this 2 her? ‘****** You, Lady’, US Man Yells @ Dr.Shireen Mazari http://bit.ly/mvn7bC

If Making Up Shit were an Olympic Sport, Mazari would B a 10 time gold medalist. But the US "serviceman" was a rube. http://bit.ly/mvn7bC

@pseudorebel Dude, she's a dangerous liar. I don't believe a word she spews. She's 1 chromosome from being an invertebrate.

@shobz It isn't a feminist thing. Mazari has the integrity of a small-time mobster. 90% of what she says is from the ISI's play book c.1990.

@bhumikaghimire This is definitely rube v. shrew. I would have paid money to see it go down. Who hasn't wanted to tell her to ****** Off?

@bhumikaghimire BTW: I don't mind anti-US vitriol. The US often deserves it. I do mind her penchant for making up dangerous shit.

@shobz That woman has bigger kapure than her husband...who I understand is called No Dong from certain persons in certain agencies.

@JovialJinx Huh? Does her homework? Please! She lies like a rug. The truth would not bless her with its farts. She IS blinded by hate 4 US.

Joseph · Post by **Joseph** » 17 Jun 2011 08:46

Bush Needs To Attach Strings To Pakistan Aid (June 24, 2003)

When Gen. Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan agreed to line up with the United States after Sept. 11, 2001, many Pakistanis who sympathized with al-Qaeda and the Taliban were outraged. Don't worry, Musharraf reassured them days later in a revealing TV address in the Urdu language not intended for American ears.

Sprinkling in citations from the Koran, Musharraf on Sept. 19, 2001 drew a lengthy analogy between the situation then facing Pakistan and the opportunist alliance the Prophet Mohammed made with the Jewish tribes of Medina to defeat his enemies. After six years of fighting against nonbelievers in Mecca who challenged his claim to be the Prophet, Mohammed made a deal with them and ditched the Jews. Mecca became the headquarters of the new religion.

Although veiled, Musharraf's message, as widely interpreted in the Urdu media, was unmistakable: The alliance with the Americans is only temporary. He directed special words of reassurance to Taliban sympathizers, reminding them, "I have done everything for Afghanistan and the Taliban when the whole world was against them. We are trying our best to come out of this critical situation without any damage to [lbra]them[rbra]."

This might be a partial transcript of the speech in Urdu for Pakistani ears.

Partial transcript of Pakistan President Musharraf's televised speech

Even in the present circumstances, we are trying to negotiate with them. I sent the chief of ISI, with my personal letter to Mullah Omar. I told Mullah Omar in my letter about the seriousness of the situation. I would have (inaudible) somehow to come out of this serious situation so that Afghanistan and Taliban do not face any kind of harm. Not even this, I'm even telling America whatever their intentions are, they should exercise balance. And we are also asking for any evidence against Osama bin Laden.

But I would like to ask, how can we save Afghanistan and Taliban from getting into any harm or try to lessen the harm? Can we do it by cutting off the international community or going with them? I'm convinced that your verdict would be that if we go along with the international community then alone we can influence their decisions.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Jun 2011 08:48

harbans wrote:Now Americans are in the same dilemna we have faced so long.

The Americans entered into this biradari type relationship with Pakistan voluntarily. It is important for SDRE Indians not to miss the significance of entering into a biradari style relationship with Pakistan (as opposed to a normal state to state relationship).

A biradari style relationship is based on interpersonal relations , obligations and politeness where is it as important not to insult or demean the other party and make them feel good. There is an Indian equivalent of this relationship in the way a bride's family will treat a groom's family with respect and ignore or swallow any minor transgressions because the relationship and the outward appearance of unity are more important than the truth that groom's aunt is a downright b##tch. OT but it is for the same reason that Indian mothers in law are "respected" while in the UK a friend was surprised to hear that my mother in law would visit us and asked why I did not object citing the reason that his mother in law was chief test pilot of a broom factory

But that is biradari for you, and biradari between USA and Pakistan means a tacit acceptance of the other's attitudes whether you believe them or not. In the case of the USA a biradari relationship with Pakistan would mean that the US interlocuters who interacted with Pakis would have to share attitudes and jokes that Indians are vegetarian jerks, racist, antiegalitarian/casteist and anti-Abrahamic. Clearly at last some Americans have been influenced by this racist poison from Pakistan as Bakis have GUBOed and sold themselves to Americans while enmeshing Yanquis in a web of biraderhood.

I write this because Ms Schaffer has figured out the pisko of pakis but no American will anolyse themselves and their attitudes towards India that have been shaped by a biradari relationship with Pakistan. That is for us SDREs to understand and deal with.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 17 Jun 2011 09:21

Received by email

Pakistan’s General Problem

How Pakistan’s Generals turned the country into an international jihadi tourist resort

BY Mohammad Hanif

TAGGED UNDER | Pakistan | jihad | Generals

SOS

HOW TO AVOID A COURT MARTIAL: Pervez Musharraf (bottom centre) and his colleagues should have been court martialed for inflicting the Kargil mission on Pakistan—a humiliating defeat and a diplomatic disaster. Instead, he elevated himself to become the country’s President (Photo: AFP)

HOW TO AVOID A COURT MARTIAL: Pervez Musharraf (bottom centre) and his colleagues should have been court martialed for inflicting the Kargil mission on Pakistan—a humiliating defeat and a diplomatic disaster. Instead, he elevated himself to become the country’s President (Photo: AFP)

What is the last thing you say to your best general when ordering him into a do-or-die mission? A prayer maybe, if you are religiously inclined. A short lecture, underlining the importance of the mission, if you want to keep it businesslike. Or maybe you’ll wish him good luck accompanied by a clicking of the heels and a final salute.

On the night of 5 July 1977 as Operation Fair Play, meant to topple Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto’s elected government, was about to commence, then Army Chief General Zia ul Haq took aside his right-hand man and Corps Commander of 10th Corps Lieutenant General Faiz Ali Chishti and whispered to him: “Murshid, marwa na daina.” (Guru, don’t get us killed.)

General Zia was indulging in two of his favourite pastimes: spreading his paranoia amongst those around him and sucking up to a junior officer he needed to do his dirty work. General Zia had a talent for that; he could make his juniors feel as if they were indispensable to the running of this world. And he could make his seniors feel like proper gods, as Bhutto found out to his cost.

General Faiz Ali Chishti’s troops didn’t face any resistance that night; not a single shot was fired, and like all military coups in Pakistan, this was also dubbed a ‘bloodless coup’. There was a lot of bloodshed, though, in the following years—in military-managed dungeons, as pro-democracy students were butchered at Thori gate in interior Sindh, hundreds of shoppers were blown up in Karachi’s Bohri Bazar, in Rawalpindi people didn’t even have to leave their houses to get killed as the Army’s ammunition depot blew up raining missiles on a whole city, and finally at Basti Laal Kamal near Bahawalpur, where a plane exploded killing General Zia and most of the Pakistan Army’s high command. General Faiz Ali Chishti had nothing to do with this, of course. General Zia had managed to force his murshid into retirement soon after coming to power. Chishti had started to take that term of endearment—murshid—a bit too seriously and dictators can’t stand anyone who thinks of himself as a kingmaker.

Thirty-four years on, Pakistan is a society divided at many levels. There are those who insist on tracing our history to a certain September day in 2001, and there are those who insist that this country came into being the day the first Muslim landed on the Subcontinent. There are laptop jihadis, liberal fascist and fair-weather revolutionaries. There are Balochi freedom fighters up in the mountains and bullet-riddled bodies of young political activists in obscure Baloch towns. And, of course, there are the members of civil society with a permanent glow around their faces from all the candle-light vigils. All these factions may not agree on anything but there is consensus on one point: General Zia’s coup was a bad idea. When was the last time anyone heard Nawaz Sharif or any of Zia’s numerous protégés thump their chest and say, yes, we need another Zia? When did you see a Pakistan military commander who stood on Zia’s grave and vowed to continue his mission?

It might have taken Pakistanis 34 years to reach this consensus but we finally agree that General Zia’s domestic and foreign policies didn’t do us any good. It brought us automatic weapons, heroin and sectarianism; it also made fortunes for those who dealt in these commodities. And it turned Pakistan into an international jihadi tourist resort.

And yet, somehow, without ever publicly owning up to it, the Army has continued Zia’s mission. Successive Army commanders, despite their access to vast libraries and regular strategic reviews, have never actually acknowledged that the multinational, multicultural jihadi project they started during the Zia era was a mistake. Late Dr Eqbal Ahmed, the Pakistani teacher and activist, once said that the Pakistan Army is brilliant at collecting information but its ability to analyse this information is non-existent.

Looking back at the Zia years, the Pakistan Army seems like one of those mythical monsters that chops off its own head but then grows an identical one and continues on the only course it knows.

In 1999, two days after the Pakistan Army embarked on its Kargil misadventure, Lieutenant General Mahmud Ahmed gave a ‘crisp and to the point’ briefing to a group of senior Army and Air Force officers. Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail, who attended the meeting, later wrote that they were told that it was nothing more than a defensive manoeuvre and the Indian Air Force will not get involved at any stage. “Come October, we shall walk into Siachen—to mop up the dead bodies of hundreds of Indians left hungry, out in the cold,” General Mahmud told the meeting. “Perhaps it was the incredulousness of the whole thing that led Air Commodore Abid Rao to famously quip, ‘After this operation, it’s going to be either a Court Martial or Martial Law!’ as we walked out of the briefing room,” Air Commodore Tufail recalled in an essay.

If Rao Abid even contemplated a court martial, he probably lacked leadership qualities because there was only one way out of this mess—a humiliating military defeat, a world-class diplomatic disaster, followed by yet another martial law. The man who should have faced court martial for Kargil appointed himself Pakistan’s President for the next decade.

General Mahmud went on to command ISI, Rao Abid retired as air vice marshal, both went on to find lucrative work in the Army’s vast welfare empire, and Kargil was forgotten as if it was a game of dare between two juveniles who were now beyond caring about who had actually started the game. Nobody remembers that a lot of blood was shed on this pointless Kargil mission. The battles were fierce and some of the men and officers fought so valiantly that two were awarded Pakistan’s highest military honour, Nishan-e-Haidar. There were hundreds of others whose names never made it to any awards list, whose families consoled themselves by saying that their loved ones had been martyred while defending our nation’s borders against our enemy. Nobody pointed out the basic fact that there was no enemy on those mountains before some delusional generals decided that they would like to mop up hundreds of Indian soldiers after starving them to death.

The architect of this mission, the daring General Pervez Musharraf, who didn’t bother to consult his colleagues before ordering his soldiers to their slaughter, doesn’t even have the wits to face a sessions court judge in Pakistan, let alone a court martial. The only people he feels comfortable with are his Facebook friends and that too from the safety of his London apartment. During the whole episode, the nation was told that it wasn’t the regular army that was fighting in Kargil; it was the mujahideen. But those who received their loved ones’ flag-draped coffins had sent their sons and brothers to serve in a professional army, not a freelance lashkar.

The Pakistan Army’s biggest folly has been that under Zia it started outsourcing its basic job—soldiering—to these freelance militants. By blurring the line between a professional soldier—who, at least in theory, is always required to obey his officer, who in turn is governed by a set of laws—and a mujahid, who can pick and choose his cause and his commander depending on his mood, the Pakistan Army has caused immense confusion in its own ranks. Our soldiers are taught to shout Allah-o-Akbar when mocking an attack. In real life, they are ambushed by enemies who shout Allah-o-Akbar even louder. Can we blame them if they dither in their response? When the Pakistan Navy’s main aviation base in Karachi, PNS Mehran, was attacked, Navy Chief Admiral Nauman Bashir told us that the attackers were ‘very well trained’. We weren’t sure if he was giving us a lazy excuse or admiring the creation of his institution. When naval officials told journalists that the attackers were ‘as good as our own commandoes’ were they giving themselves a backhanded compliment?

In the wake of the attacks on PNS Mehran in Karachi, some TV channels have pulled out an old war anthem sung by late Madam Noor Jehan and have started to play it in the backdrop of images of young, hopeful faces of slain officers and men. Written by the legendary teacher and poet Sufi Tabassum, the anthem carries a clear and stark warning: Aiay puttar hatantay nahin wickday, na labhdi phir bazaar kuray (You can’t buy these brave sons from shops, don’t go looking for them in bazaars).

While Sindhis and Balochis have mostly composed songs of rebellion, Punjabi popular culture has often lionised its karnails and jarnails and even an odd dholsipahi. The Pakistan Army, throughout its history, has refused to take advice from politicians as well as thinking professionals from its own ranks. It has never listened to historians and sometimes ignored even the esteemed religious scholars it frequently uses to whip up public sentiments for its dirty wars. But the biggest strategic mistake it has made is that it has not even taken advice from the late Madam Noor Jehan, one of the Army’s most ardent fans in Pakistan’s history. You can probably ignore Dr Eqbal Ahmed’s advice and survive in this country but you ignore Madam at your own peril.

Since the Pakistan Army’s high command is dominated by Punjabi-speaking generals, it’s difficult to fathom what it is about this advice that they didn’t understand. Any which way you translate it, the message is loud and clear. And lyrical: soldiers are not to be bought and sold like a commodity. “Na awaian takran maar kuray” (That search is futile, like butting your head against a brick wall), Noor Jehan goes on to rhapsodise.

For decades, the Army has not only shopped for these private puttarsin the bazaars, it also set up factories to manufacture them. It raised whole armies of them. When you raise Lashkar-e-Taiba, Jaish Mohammed, Sipahe Sahaba, Sipahe Mohammed, Lashker Jhangvi, Al- Badar Mujahideen, others encouraged by the thriving market place will go ahead and start outfits like Anjuman Tahuffuze Khatame Nabuwat and Anjuman Tahuffuze Namoos-e-Aiyasha. It’s not just Kashmir and Afghanistan and Chechnya they will want to liberate, they will also go back in time and seek revenge for a perceived slur that may or may not have been cast by someone more than 1,300 years ago in a country far far away.

As if the Army’s sprawling shopping mall of private puttars in Pakistan wasn’t enough, it actively encouraged import and export of these commodities, even branched out into providing rest and recreation facilities for the ones who wanted a break. The outsourcing of Pakistan’s military strategy has reached a point where mujahids have their own mujahids to do their job, and inevitably at the end of the supply chain are those faceless and poor teenagers with explosives strapped to their torsos regularly marched out to blow up other poor kids.

Two days before the Americans killed Osama bin Laden and took away his bullet-riddled body, General Kiyani addressed Army cadets at Kakul. After declaring a victory of sorts over the militants, he gave our nation a stark choice. And before the nation could even begin to weigh its pros and cons, he went ahead and decided for them: we shall never bargain our honour for prosperity. As things stand, most people in Pakistan have neither honour nor prosperity and will easily settle for their little world not blowing up every day.

The question people really want to ask General Kiyani is that if he and his Army officer colleagues can have both honour and prosperity, why can’t we the people have a tiny bit of both?

The Army and its advocates in the media often worry about Pakistan’s image, as if we are not suffering from a long-term serious illness but a seasonal bout of acne that just needs better skin care. The Pakistan Army, over the years, has cultivated this image of 180 million people with nuclear devices strapped to their collective body threatening to take the world down with it. We may not be able to take the world down with us; the world might defang us or try to calm us down by appealing to our imagined Sufi side. But the fact remains that Pakistan as a nation is paying the price for our generals’ insistence on acting, in Asma Jahangir’s frank but accurate description, like duffers.

And demanding medals and golf resorts for being such duffers consistently for such a long time.

What people really want to do at this point is put an arm around our military commanders’ shoulders, take them aside and whisper in their ears: “Murshid, marwa na daina.”

+++

Mohammed Hanif is the author of A Case of Exploding Mangoes(2008), his first novel, a satire on the death of General Zia ul Haq

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 17 Jun 2011 09:27

Ilyas Kashmiri was a Genie Created by Pakistan

Rediff.com News

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 17 Jun 2011 09:30

US to replace two P3C Orion aircraft

SLAMABAD: The US has decided to supply two P3C Orion aircraft to Pakistan to replace the aircraft that were blown up in the PNS Mehran attack on May 22nd, 2011, diplomatic sources told DawnNews.

According to sources, the US will also be supplying F-16 aircraft and its spare-parts. Moreover, it is also expected that chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Mike Mullen will soon be visiting Pakistan to convey US President Barrack Obama’s message, sources added.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 17 Jun 2011 10:37

Acharya wrote:Pakistan's Inter-Service Intelligence
With transcript
http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/InterSer

Panelists talked about Pakistan's Inter-Service Intelligence (ISI) agency and its alleged involvement in several terrorism attacks. Among the topics they addressed were the structure of the agency, its role in government, and the ISI's relationship with U.S. intelligence. They also talked about growing distrust between the U.S. and Pakistan stemming from problems in intelligence sharing, the raid on a compound in Pakistan that killed Osama bin Laden, and ties to a terrorist bombing in Mumbai, India. They also responded to questions from the audience.

The Pak person Shuja Nawaz talks about India and how India is referred for every other thing.
he also says India does not want to take Pak since Pak is 200M angry muslims.

I finally got to watch that program. As expected, just cart load of horse manure with lies and half truths. First, that bimbmo Karen whatever with a straight face says that US has no leverage with TSP and hence cannot do more to pressure TSP on India-specfiic terror. And to rub salt to that farce of a claim, she said US can play a big role in improving relations between India & TSP which TSP welcomes but India does not. This is the quality her journalism. To call her a mouthpiece will be heaping raise on her.

Then that son of a b1ch Shuja. When asked about why TSP won't prosecute the killers responsible for Mumbai, with a sarcastic, proud smile on his face, showing India the middle finger, he said reason for lack of prosecution is that police work on "both sides" is shoddy, and as an example, he gives India's list of 50 terrorists in which some names were found to be in India itself. I mean the moutains and piles of evidence mean nothing to this so called 'moderate' b@stard. He brazenly connects two issues that have nothing to do with each other and lies through his teeth. I almost puked and stopped watching.

Purush · Post by **Purush** » 17 Jun 2011 10:46

Stupid deaf n' dumb packees. Are they so sensitive about their non-existent echhandee that they refuse an offer of help from the Indian Navy?

http://www.samachar.com/Navy-pulls-out- ... gfdij.html

The Navy on Thursday pulled out its warship from escorting MV Suez, released by pirates, towards Oman's Salalah port after the Egyptian vessel, under the command of a Pakistani national, did not respond to its calls.

The Navy, which had dispatched INS Godavari to escort the merchant vessel on Wednesday, said its warship is now escorting two other merchant vessels with 21 Indians in the Gulf of Aden while the coalition force vessels are following the MV Suez to Salalah.

“The Indian Navy has actively coordinated with all coalition force navies and other navies for providing cover to MV Suez. Navies with ships closest to Suez have responded to the request for assistance,” the Navy said in a statement.

“On reaching MV Suez, INS Godavari made every effort through all available means and channels to communicate. However, the master of the ship didn't respond.” MV Suez was released three days back by the Somali pirates after 10 months in captivity.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 17 Jun 2011 11:08

shravan wrote:US to replace two P3C Orion aircraft

SLAMABAD: The US has decided to supply two P3C Orion aircraft to Pakistan to replace the aircraft that were blown up in the PNS Mehran attack on May 22nd, 2011, diplomatic sources told DawnNews.

According to sources, the US will also be supplying F-16 aircraft and its spare-parts. Moreover, it is also expected that chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Mike Mullen will soon be visiting Pakistan to convey US President Barrack Obama’s message, sources added.

As precidated on BR the next day after the attacks, Subsidised by Indian purchases of C-17, P8I, Harpoons, C-130J's etc. Thank god alteast MMRCA did not go to the US.

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 17 Jun 2011 11:14

shravan wrote:US to replace two P3C Orion aircraft

SLAMABAD: The US has decided to supply two P3C Orion aircraft to Pakistan to replace the aircraft that were blown up in the PNS Mehran attack on May 22nd, 2011, diplomatic sources told DawnNews.

According to sources, the US will also be supplying F-16 aircraft and its spare-parts. Moreover, it is also expected that chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Mike Mullen will soon be visiting Pakistan to convey US President Barrack Obama’s message, sources added.

I sometimes think if its best i avoid this thread. Really nothing is ever gonna change and we can conclude terabytes worth of discussion on Pak-US relationship with Shiv's memorable line " Wills gave up on their "Made for each other" competition as Pak-US were winning it too often" . They are made for each other and truly deserve one another.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 17 Jun 2011 11:25

--Already posted. Thanks CRamS.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 17 Jun 2011 11:25

think if its best i avoid this thread. Really nothing is ever gonna change and we can conclude terabytes worth of discussion on Pak-US relationship with Shiv's memorable line " Wills gave up on their "Made for each other" competition as Pak-US were winning it too often" . They are made for each otheI sometimes r and truly deserve one another.

Agree Ambarji.
Ek dujay kay leeyay.

But my PoV is that TSP will drag the Khans down, bit by bit. Not that I feel thrilled. But heck, the Khans are grown up and a declining superpower.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 17 Jun 2011 11:31

abhishek_sharma wrote:Inside Pakistan's ISI (audio)
Panelists: Washington Post's Karen DeYoung, RAND's Arturo Munoz, and the Atlantic Council's Shuja Nawaz

Summary

Better summary

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 17 Jun 2011 11:34

Whats the difference between "moderate", RAPE in suit boot, Suja Nawaz and The Nutty Nation

However, while Pakistan is willing, indeed anxious, to help India over the Mumbai massacres, it cannot have forgotten how badly India messed up over the first list which it presented, and how unreliable is the present Indian list likely to be.

mehroke · Post by **mehroke** » 17 Jun 2011 11:36

Ambarji & rajanb

My early thoughts on the Pakistan were
Hum to doobaenge Sanam magar tumhe saath le kar

I used to think that it would be India that would be sunk by Pakistan's suicidal behaviour. However now it seems that the sanam that will sink with Pakistan is not India but UNKIL and some other friends. UKstan seems to be well and truly in the stranglehold of the religion of the Pure and Unkil seems to behave like a parwana that is strongly attracted to the very flame that will consume it.

My chota muh badi baat.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 17 Jun 2011 11:51

Iran gives up on India, pursues gas pipeline with Pak