The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

sugriva · Post by **sugriva** » 17 Jun 2011 10:06

^^^exactly how is the rant that you posted above germane to the point that Somnath raised "Does he undergo a spiritual transformation?". Or will your contribution be limited to posting inanities, non-sequitors and strawman arguments

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 17 Jun 2011 10:07

nataraja wrote: INC = (NOT) Corrupt or INC = (NOT) Criminals

and I grant you, I cant also make

BJP = (NOT) Corrupt

Great..Since these are ceteris paribus, what do you do now? Given that these two parties are likely to be alternating as the ruling (or kingmaking) national party for the foreseeable future? Pray? Or demand moral science classes for politicians? Or keep shouting for blood, get a few drops quickly forgotten, while the "party" moves on to the next scam? To shout for blood yet again...

negi · Post by **negi** » 17 Jun 2011 10:09

Hence my friends take a chill pill; have chai biskoot as INACTION is name of the game.

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 17 Jun 2011 10:15

somnath wrote:
nataraja wrote: INC = (NOT) Corrupt or INC = (NOT) Criminals

and I grant you, I cant also make

BJP = (NOT) Corrupt
Great..Since these are ceteris paribus, what do you do now? Given that these two parties are likely to be alternating as the ruling (or kingmaking) national party for the foreseeable future? Pray? Or ask for moral science classes for politicians? Or keep shouting for blood, get a few drops quickly forgotten, while the "party" moves on to the next scam? To shout for blood yet again...

thanks for responding to my post the way you did, rather than the imbecile way Sugriva did. What you asked is the key question. It is at the core of it all.

Look, if you acknowledge that "these two parties are likely to be alternating as the ruling national party for the forseeable future", and you also concede that both of them are corrupt, what makes you or anyone think that they have any incentive to take any action against corruption ? Regardless of what the solution is, I mean, I am even willing to pretend for a minute (even though this is taking up all my strength to do so), that your solutions make sense or even that I understand what the hell you are talking about..........let me pretend for a minute that each and every word you say is the exact prescription for doing away with corruption.

Given that these two parties are "destined" to alternate as the ruling national party, no matter what, what incentive do they have to put in place your solutions to doing away with corruption ? Why will they do it, when it is so much easier and more lucrative to just stay the course and make money and make merry while they are in power.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Jun 2011 10:15

>> I doubt he can win anything in MP now. He is a lost cause and is best told to fade out. I wonder what the Kangress High Kammand
>> see in him to keep him as a Gen Sec.

INC has this traditional thing that their state level satraps who do not get along - one is kept in state (whether in oppn or in CMs chair) and the other is kept in delhi where his/her activities will not clash with state level politics and his chances of fomenting rebellions are less. if there is no place in delhi, they are made governor of a NE state and packed off.

that being said, maybe his next posting could be the chair which Kalmadiji had to vacate .. but he is serving a useful cause as the abrasive bad cop, freeing up "senior ministers" from having to be unpleasant and look more statesmenlike.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 17 Jun 2011 10:31

nataraja wrote:Regardless of what the solution is, I mean, I am even willing to pretend for a minute (even though this is taking up all my strength to do so), that your solutions make sense or even that I understand what the hell you are talking about..........let me pretend for a minute that each and every word you say is the exact prescription for doing away with corruption

Well, instead of undertaking such an energy sapping exercise, why dont you take the easier route - tell me (and everyone) what your "solutions" are? Barrign moral science classes, that is...

As for me, I think change is possible, in fact even inevitable, without plotting a revolution...The 1991 reforms happened even when most of INC (and pretty much everyone in opposition) was really not in favour..The nuke deal happened despite opposition from everyone...the former struck a bigger blow against corruption in India than anything before, or ever since...

There was ostensibly no incentive for anyone in Bihar politics to go outside the "caste framework"...But people forced the "change" in narrative there - even Laloo talks development now...Lokpal was in the deep freeze for 40 years - Anna Hazare/Arvind K et al have forced it into the limelight for execution...

Democracy has its own way of forcing the change in stances...Focussed civil society action has its own...It has forced policy change before, it has the ability to do so again...And now is the time to force it, as political parties know that if they dont force the change, they will be "changed"...But we need to be careful what we ask for - if its only going to be a bit of blood, the politicians will be delighted...We need to ask for the substantive changes in policy....

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 17 Jun 2011 10:35

nataraja wrote:
Hello Folks!
Greetings. Namaskar, Sat Sri Akal.
1) I wonder who these people are who think that corruption is not a big problem in India.
Greetings Mr Nataraja. This question is easily answered- the rich and the corrupt in power think it is not a big problem.

2) I wonder who these people are , who deny the right of any Indian citizen, even incarcerated ones, to protest against corruption.
The powerful people in power currently, pretend to safeguard the rights of the people, but actually do nothing.

3)
I wonder who these people are, who think that any illiterate, any buffoon, any idiot, any murderer, any rapist, any fool, any thief, any scamster, any sicko can be qualified to be a political leader in this country as long as he is elected and that in order to protest against corruption, one needs some mystical and mythical "special" qualifications.
The system has made people believe that any elected person is above the rest, and one needs people (gurus like BR) to help them fight corruption, but this is wrong, each and every individual can rise up and fight corruption at his own level.

4)
I wonder who these people are who think that one has to be first elected to lead a protest movement and if one has not been elected, one is not qualified to lead a protest movement.
Definitely the coterie in the Government, the elected NCI leaders think like this.

5)
I wonder who these people are, regardless of anything else they may think, who dont get outraged at breaking up of a peaceful protest, who dont get outraged at brutalizing unarmed and helpless women and children and who dont get outraged when an Indian citizen, any citizen is denied the right to peacefully visit any Indian city.
Only the INC supporters are not outraged, they support the police action, and Sheila Dixit is responsible for Police orders in Delhi State, she is definitely to blame.

Then I stop wondering. The answer finally dawned on me. "9%...." Nawww. The answer to all the questions above is

"The corrupt"

So True, INC represents "The Corrupt" as long as it stays in power, but after they go, another set of "The Corrupt" are waiting to rule.

To end all this, the idea of OMBUDSMAN (LOKPAL) took shape. It would represent the remaining unelected majority that elects its representatives. Anna Hazare has made it so clear, that the elected representatives are servants of the people, and not vice versa. This trend of believing that once in power the elected representatives can do anything, is an illusion prevailing in the people.Some groups then push their limited agenda through, and the majority gets ignored.Thus begins the isolation of the masses, and it leads to unrest. Anna Hazare has been very well focussed, and the government is desperately trying to upset him. If we continue to support AH the movement might stay and get stronger till it succeeds. What is needed is commitment from us, we the people.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 17 Jun 2011 10:43

Regardless of what the solution is, I mean, I am even willing to pretend for a minute (even though this is taking up all my strength to do so), that your solutions make sense or even that I understand what the hell you are talking about..........let me pretend for a minute that each and every word you say is the exact prescription for doing away with corruption.

If you think retribution and vengeance alone will solve the problem you don't get it. Neither will the relevant paths to solutions and examples being repeated over again strike a chord. Vengeance does blind one's understanding. I agree with you it would sap your strength to think of solutions. Vengeance and crying for blood is the easier way out. Somnath Ji mentions the scams in certain sectors recurring because of lack of reform like the Telecom one. The Sukhram example was a very excellent one. Everyone cried hoarse on corruption then too. Papers splashed his ill gotten wealth, properties, bundles of cash in the Puja room all the time. Then what happened after putting him in Jail?

Increased transparency in the system will also expose scams. In the most despotic regimes, scams are rarely exposed. North Korea there are no scams. I did'nt hear of any scams emerging in Nazi Germany, Fascist Japan, Saddams Iraq or Castro's Cuba. The very heartening feature of all this is one: That it was Govt institutions that have uncovered most scams.

Again the example of improved security is necessary. Security breaches strengthen the system if the system adapts and keeps plugging loopholes. We would'nt have been talking if hackers were successful and your antivirus was not updated plugging loopholes every day. But then if you think whats good 20 years ago will be good today, how can one bring light?

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 17 Jun 2011 10:47

somnath wrote:
nataraja wrote:Regardless of what the solution is, I mean, I am even willing to pretend for a minute (even though this is taking up all my strength to do so), that your solutions make sense or even that I understand what the hell you are talking about..........let me pretend for a minute that each and every word you say is the exact prescription for doing away with corruption
Well, instead of undertaking such an energy sapping exercise, why dont you take the easier route - tell me (and everyone) what your "solutions" are? Barrign moral science classes, that is...

As for me, I think change is possible, in fact even inevitable, without plotting a revolution...The 1991 reforms happened even when most of INC (and pretty much everyone in opposition) was really not in favour..The nuke deal happened despite opposition from everyone...the former struck a bigger blow against corruption in India than anything before, or ever since...

There was ostensibly no incentive for anyone in Bihar politics to go outside the "caste framework"...But people forced the "change" in narrative there - even Laloo talks development now...Lokpal was in the deep freeze for 40 years - Anna Hazare/Arvind K et al have forced it into the limelight for execution...

Democracy has its own way of forcing the change in stances...Focussed civil society action has its own...It has forced policy change before, it has the ability to do so again...And now is the time to force it, as political parties know that if they dont force the change, they will be "changed"...

All the changes you have highlighted have occurred.

But so many other much needed changes have not occurred. Name one municipal corporation that does a good job of picking up trash. Name one local or other government that does a good job of supplying clean and abundant drinking water to a majority of the citizens it serves. Name one state government that provides adequate and hassle free electric power to its constituents. Name one police department which actually protects its people. Have you ever tried to file an FIR with the police in India? Name one state where the judicial system even provides a minimal level of justice to its citizens in a timely manner ? Name a state where you can buy or sell property without paying off the "registrar"? Name a state where you can get a driver's license without paying anyone off? Can you get a job in police or any government job without paying or being related to someone, if you are not an SC or ST?

Why did I mention all these above ? Because while India did open up its economy in 1992 and Bihar did improve its administration, these are anomalies, exceptions that prove the rule. Modi is an anomaly. To a lesser extent Nitish is an anomaly. It took India to literally be bankrupt to cause 1992 to happen, and that too barely by the seat of its pants. These things happened despite the government, not because of it, as you yourself allude to above. So many other basic things that need to be in place for people to minimally live as human beings, which I have mentioned in the paragraph above show no signs of improvements.

Do you simply want to rely on long odds of a 1992 or two out of hundreds of Chief Ministers India has had since independence and Allah's will to effect these changes or would you prefer an action plan with better odds?

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 17 Jun 2011 10:50

harbans wrote:
Regardless of what the solution is, I mean, I am even willing to pretend for a minute (even though this is taking up all my strength to do so), that your solutions make sense or even that I understand what the hell you are talking about..........let me pretend for a minute that each and every word you say is the exact prescription for doing away with corruption.
If you think retribution and vengeance alone will solve the problem you don't get it. Neither will the relevant paths to solutions and examples being repeated over again strike a chord. Vengeance does blind one's understanding. I agree with you it would sap your strength to think of solutions. Vengeance and crying for blood is the easier way out. Somnath Ji mentions the scams in certain sectors recurring because of lack of reform like the Telecom one. The Sukhram example was a very excellent one. Everyone cried hoarse on corruption then too. Papers splashed his ill gotten wealth, properties, bundles of cash in the Puja room all the time. Then what happened after putting him in Jail?

Increased transparency in the system will also expose scams. In the most despotic regimes, scams are rarely exposed. North Korea there are no scams. I did'nt hear of any scams emerging in Nazi Germany, Fascist Japan, Saddams Iraq or Castro's Cuba. The very heartening feature of all this is one: That it was Govt institutions that have uncovered most scams.

Again the example of improved security is necessary. Security breaches strengthen the system if the system adapts and keeps plugging loopholes. We would'nt have been talking if hackers were successful and your antivirus was not updated plugging loopholes every day. But then if you think whats good 20 years ago will be good today, how can one bring light?

Please be intellectually honest.

Where do you find vengeance in my posts.

There is a difference between taking strong and effective action and having a strong will to stop corruption and vengeance, isnt it? You know it, because your posts suggest you are a smart person. So, why deliberately slander me and/or put words in my mouth or attribute intentions to me such as "vengeance" ?

Does enforcing the law, having speedy justice and punishing the guilty the same as vengeance ? Perhaps in a way the entire natural system of cause and effect is perhaps based on "vengeance", because every action has a reaction.

I find the entire Indian system completely devoid of any law enforcement and justice.

negi · Post by **negi** » 17 Jun 2011 10:50

Even mofo Angrez laid down railway tracks and roads in India so if bchods in INC did a couple of good things over 5 decades of their rule; what's the big deal ? Tibbet and Kashmir were lost due to these geniuses. As for the nuke deal had it not been for the PoK-II tests it would have been yet another chai pakora sessions. Anyways not sure how these are relevant to corruption but then now that goal posts have been shifted we shall oblige.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 17 Jun 2011 10:53

It's amusing, and a little pathetic, to see how the erstwhile hand-waving of the Elite Iskooled Nau-Percentis

has now given way to futile grasping at straws.

We are expected to believe, apparently, that the process of liberalization and reform in 1991 was not initiated due to IMF having to bail India out from the verge of bankruptcy. No-- it was simply because there was "conviction in the policy-making team that reforms were direly required"!

This of course begs the question... where were these well-intentioned policymakers when the INC had a thumping 85% majority in parliament during the Rajiv Gandhi regime upto December 1989? Somehow, these saintly souls only got busy implementing reforms under a PVNR government which depended on external Left Front support for its very survival it seems!

But of course that had nothing to do with our being forced to approach the IMF with hat in hand in 1991..."nothing could be further from the truth!" Very curious, no?

Or maybe MMS was the visionary "secret Santa Claus" of liberalization and economic reform all along! Maybe he was only *pretending* to implement old school socialist policies while he was Deputy Chair of the Planning Commision, under a strong Rajiv Gandhi govt, from 1985-87! That way he could give us such a nice surprise, by bringing on those altruistic and "direly needed" reforms under a weak PVNR govt, post 1991! And of course, none of this had anything to do with IMF pressure either!

Why should mere facts get in the way of a strawman defence of Mainovadi criminals, after all? And why let the truth distract us from a name-dropping exercise to establish one's Elite Iskool credentials of "economic expertise"?

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 17 Jun 2011 10:57

Everybody seems to be arguing at cross-purposes - when I fundamentally don't see any poster differing with the others on this thread.

All three of the following measures to tackle corruption are necessary and required-

1. Political retribution for any party that has indulged in systematic corruption
2. A debate on Lokpal and other immediate measures to be put in place so acts of corruption can be identified and caught early
3. Tackling longer term systemic issues that fundamentally give rise to corruption. This requires rethinking the entire model / system of governance and which areas and how the government should involve itself in

If anybody does not agree with the three points above - can they please identify themselves? I would be surprised if there is disagreement - I do think there is unanimity on the above points.

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 17 Jun 2011 11:00

harbans wrote:
Regardless of what the solution is, I mean, I am even willing to pretend for a minute (even though this is taking up all my strength to do so), that your solutions make sense or even that I understand what the hell you are talking about..........let me pretend for a minute that each and every word you say is the exact prescription for doing away with corruption.
If you think retribution and vengeance alone will solve the problem you don't get it. Neither will the relevant paths to solutions and examples being repeated over again strike a chord. Vengeance does blind one's understanding. I agree with you it would sap your strength to think of solutions. Vengeance and crying for blood is the easier way out. Somnath Ji mentions the scams in certain sectors recurring because of lack of reform like the Telecom one. The Sukhram example was a very excellent one. Everyone cried hoarse on corruption then too. Papers splashed his ill gotten wealth, properties, bundles of cash in the Puja room all the time. Then what happened after putting him in Jail?

Increased transparency in the system will also expose scams. In the most despotic regimes, scams are rarely exposed. North Korea there are no scams. I did'nt hear of any scams emerging in Nazi Germany, Fascist Japan, Saddams Iraq or Castro's Cuba. The very heartening feature of all this is one: That it was Govt institutions that have uncovered most scams.

Again the example of improved security is necessary. Security breaches strengthen the system if the system adapts and keeps plugging loopholes. We would'nt have been talking if hackers were successful and your antivirus was not updated plugging loopholes every day. But then if you think whats good 20 years ago will be good today, how can one bring light?

And you are the one who seems to be taking the easy way out. Instead of focussing on solutions, which are really only academic discussions without first discussing how we will enforce a solution, regardless of what it is. It is far more energy sapping to come up with how we will actually implement any solution that we may come up with, within the current system or even outside of it.

I recommend that we first focus on coming up with concrete ways to implement the solutions, whatever they may be, and then by all means discuss the solutions themselves.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 17 Jun 2011 11:02

Rudradev wrote: No-- it was simply because there was "conviction in the policy-making team that reforms were direly required"!

I do think the conviction was present, but never on the part of the Gandhi / Mainos. PVNR and most likely MMS and a host of other economic advisors do need to be commended for sticking to their convictions - but the undeniable fact is that these convictions could never find the light of day as long as they were under the Dynasty.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 17 Jun 2011 11:03

Any government in power is duty bound to perform tasks for the benefit of the people.what else are they there for? Indeed they sleep and spend time playing taaash every afternoon (check the circle lawns near AIR/DD complex) and then tea and samosa and no one works. These baboos bring down any government, and they are headed by the elected Ministers, who are protect them and their corrupt practices (because they reap harvests from such baboos). The system is in a state of rot, turning into gangrene at the ankles (the police, its enforcement arm, are the hands and legs of the system). For anyone from outside India wanting to destabilise the government, they just need to bribe the baboos, and that's how many things keep going wrong.Not one in the Congress (perhaps with the sole exception of PM Man Mohan Singh) is individually above corruption.However just being individually free of corruption is not enough, we need the entire country to be free from it.

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 17 Jun 2011 11:05

I am new here.

Is this guy Harbans just a flame thrower ?

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 17 Jun 2011 11:11

nataraja wrote:I am new here.

Is this guy Harbans just a flame thrower ?

He is a respectable BRF oldie, relax.

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 17 Jun 2011 11:11

Arjun wrote:Everybody seems to be arguing at cross-purposes - when I fundamentally don't see any poster differing with the others on this thread.

All three of the following measures to tackled corruption are necessary and required-

1. Political retribution for any party that has indulged in systematic corruption
2. A debate on Lokpal and other immediate measures to be put in place so acts of corruption can be identified and caught early
3. Tackling longer term systemic issues that fundamentally give rise to corruption. This requires rethinking the entire model / system of governance and which areas and how the government should involve itself in

If anybody does not agree with the three points above - can they please identify themselves? I would be surprised if there is disagreement - I do think there is unanimity on the above points.

When you say that "this requires rethinking the entire model/system of governance and which areas and how the government should involve itself in", are you and this forum open to considering forms of democracy which have'nt so far existed anywhere or even be open to considering other forms of governance than democracy ? I wish to explore both those avenues.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 17 Jun 2011 11:13

nataraja wrote:But so many other much needed changes have not occurred

Which only means we have a long way to go...The level and quality of civic engagement has to go up, just as the level and quality of the Indian economy has gone up in the last 20 years...

Just hand waiving about "strong measures" is really motherhood statements...Mean nothing in absence of a concrete proposition...

A bit like people high on rhetoric (and higher on invectives), and low on facts (gold import liberalisation was done by PC, not by MMS in 1992) or comprehension ("entire reforms process was not due to IMF pressures" = "there was no IMF pressure for reforms")...

Looking at it in the "lets kick some butt" framework - there will be nothing to discuss beyong a couple of lines, barring of course uber invective specialists coming up with newer invectives!

A discussion on policy is more interesting and value adding, at least to me....

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 17 Jun 2011 11:20

nataraja wrote:Instead of focussing on solutions, which are really only academic discussions without first discussing how we will enforce a solution, regardless of what it is.

Well, the only really "academic" discussion is the one on maniwadis...

If you really want to contribute meaningfully, understand the discuss the policy that can make things better...
Brassstacks,
1. Give your feedback on Lokpal (I have posted the site link here before).
2. Give your feedback on New Telecom Policy 2011 - its up for discussion right now (email ID in the Telecom ministry website)...
3. Push your local MP to support immediate passage of the GST Bill...

And discuss and thrash out any other ideas you might have...

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 17 Jun 2011 11:20

A good policy would have been to settle random small scale corruption acts on the spot by awarding instantaneous punishments through fast track, even mobile courts that are set up at a phonecall.

Of course if the maginitude of corruption ramifies into hundreds of baboos under tutelary protection of ministers in high offices, there would be the need of dedicated courts to handle it but a time-frame (1 year as suggested in the LOK PALL BILL draft) is necessary.

In cases of major corruption scandals that rocks the assemblies, eg: Bofors, and this recent barrage of scandals, dedicated courts are a must, and should not be disbanded when the government changes.The trials must reach their conclusions.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 17 Jun 2011 11:21

nataraja wrote:When you say that "this requires rethinking the entire model/system of governance and which areas and how the government should involve itself in", are you and this forum open to considering forms of democracy which have'nt so far existed anywhere or even be open to considering other forms of governance than democracy ? I wish to explore both those avenues.

As long as the system of governance is in line with basic liberal principles - which is 'freedom of choice to individuals' to be maximised and a system of 'checks and balances' on government that limits unrestrained power.

But if there are folks who are interested in the longer term issues - might be best to continue that particular discussion on another thread so the shorter-term and longer-term issues can be kept separate.

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 17 Jun 2011 11:21

somnath wrote:
nataraja wrote:But so many other much needed changes have not occurred
Which only means we have a long way to go...The level and quality of civic engagement has to go up, just as the level and quality of the Indian economy has gone up in the last 20 years...

Just hand waiving about "strong measures" is really motherhood statements...Mean nothing in absence of a concrete proposition...

A bit like people high on rhetoric (and higher on invectives), and low on facts (gold import liberalisation was done by PC, not by MMS in 1992) or comprehension ("entire reforms process was not due to IMF pressures" = "there was no IMF pressure for reforms")...

Looking at it in the "lets kick some butt" framework - there will be nothing to discuss beyong a couple of lines, barring of course uber invective specialists coming up with newer invectives! A discussion on policy is more interesting and value adding, at least to me....

You seem to be getting frustrated and then are making the classic "slandering and putting words in my mouth" technique, if not "attributing motives" to me.

Are you not reading my posts ? Are you not getting the fundamental point I am trying to make ? Or you just dont care. You have a script and you will simply attack everyone who doesnt fit your script. You are being very disrespectful.

The fundamental question is this. If the government, whichever party it belongs to, INC or BJP, has no intention to implement any solutions to corruption because they are assured alternating power anyway, how will you implement whatever solution anyone ever comes up with ?

You seem to think that since one or two positive things have happened in the past, no thanks to the government, we should just wait for more positive things to happen, sort of as an act of God, while the government of either party uses the entire governmental machinary at its disposal to thwart any action by its citizens to implement any solutions, regardless of what they are, regardless of whether I personally agree with those solutions or not.

Doesnt your approach sound like it is coming from a person who is really motivated to maintain status quo, as you benefit from the status quo and will lose a lot if something drastically changes.

negi · Post by **negi** » 17 Jun 2011 11:26

^ You need to learn the art of posting irrelevant data say some links of planning commission reports; parliamentary committee reports and recent findings from local panchayat; this is akin to final year project where one gets evaluated based on the thickness of his/her project report; obviously final conclusion may not necessarily have anything to do with the data posted.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 17 Jun 2011 11:28

Welcome to the machine!

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 17 Jun 2011 11:37

The Panj Pyare of Lokpal movement! Shanti Bushan,Prashant Bhushan,Kiran bedi,N Santosh Hegde,M Lyngdoh. Now under attack by INC spokesman.

The Congress frowned upon Anna Hazare's threat to go on hunger strike from August 16 on the Lokpal Bill issue, wondering whether "only five people are wise and the rest fools".
Congress general secretary Digvijay Singh told reporters that going on a fast to threaten government does not behove a Gandhian like Hazare.
Taking a dig at Hazare and his team, who have five members in the Joint drafting committee on the Lokpal Bill, Singh said the attitude that "only five people are wise and the rest are fools is not proper".
He said the Congress and the government were committed to a strong Lokpal Bill and, therefore, all parties must come together for an effective legislation.
Singh and party spokesperson Jayanthi Nataranjan, who spoke separately, insisted the so-called civil society should respect the inherent right of Parliament.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 17 Jun 2011 11:49

nataraja wrote:You seem to be getting frustrated and then are making the classic "slandering and putting words in my mouth" technique, if not "attributing motives" to me.

----

The fundamental question is this. If the government, whichever party it belongs to, INC or BJP, has no intention to implement any solutions to corruption because they are assured alternating power anyway, how will you implement whatever solution anyone ever comes up with ?

Where did I "slander" you? I am not into epithets..

I have read through your posts carfefully, and I would only repeat the question I made before - what is your "next"? What is it that you want to see "get done"?

HOw will they get implemented? Pressure, of civil society and electorate..And of course, unintended consequences...There is pressure on the govt already from powerful businesses for GST...When they implement it, the blow against corruption will be a positive network externaility....But first, be clear on what exactly you want...

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 17 Jun 2011 11:51

Nataraj Ji, first on BRF it is encouraged to stay on topic. Your tirade against 9% growth is IMHO not very appropriate in that context. India needs growth to remove poverty. This is no excuse. This is reality. No one is going to deny that here, not unless one puts his credibility at stake.

Systemic improvement includes implementation of norms and plugging existing loopholes. I explained that is exactly why we are talking to each other on the forum. Because if people just sat down and waited to flog, execute, punish hackers or instill dharmic sense amongst the people who use the internet and give up that virus makers will keep finding loopholes and they cannot improve AV sw, then we'd have crashed computers all over. But we know AV sw companies do roaring business and everyday plug loopholes and isolate malicious programs that do try and make it into our systems.

A similar way we see and can apply to governance, under the present system. We have given examples on it. Yesterday in fact there was very good discussion and it would be helpful if you'd go through Rudradev Ji, mine, Somnath, Arjun and Swamy Gi's posts. No one is trying to flamebait here. And you are most welcome to contribute and share.Don't be trigger sensitive and accuse others in a jiffy.

Does enforcing the law, having speedy justice and punishing the guilty the same as vengeance ?
Why i mentioned vengeance is if one is not looking at solving or plugging the loopholes then in effect there is no other way to look at this except that of seeking vengeance or imparting moral ethics. If you look at only enforcing law, speedy justice and punishing guilty to remove corruption, it won't happen. That by itself will not help as it won't help Anti virus software makers. They've stopped focusing into speedy justice to those that throw up malicious code. They focus on improving and strengthening their systems.

A good system as has been mentioned earlier comprises of good policy, effective implementation and good checks and balances. From Sukhram to Raja we see that there is a fundamental problem. From Telecom to mining licenses across several ministries we see the same. However there are certain ministries that are working well and have transparency. Even in the Raja scam the checks and balances system worked. But it worked late. It caught up with the scam perpetrator much after. Same with the RIL KG6 scam coming up. It were Govt instruments themselves have exposed it. But we expect better. All here without exceptions regardless of the political affiliations, do want improvement.

As Arjun ji crystallized Justice, a public debate on the provisions of the bill and reforming the system is essential.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 17 Jun 2011 11:52

Some newbies come and start firing in the air, and disappear! Somnath ji, I think you are one of the few here who have a very clear perspective and are open to discussions. All the best.

munna · Post by **munna** » 17 Jun 2011 12:45

Natraj-ji do not be deterred by chronocentric stay of any poster on this forum and least of all from people who have been taken to cleaners repeatedly in the past (the navy flats location in Mumbai fiasco being one of them).
However just to sound important or knowledgable enough please quote a decent western uni as your alma mater, claim some kind of phinance or ekhonomics background, spend half the day on the forum and yet claim to have a day job that keeps the world together. In short feel free to cut through the hot air. Happy hunting.

Meanwhile in real world:

As per chaiwala news Swami Nigamananda who died fasting againt illegal mining in holy Ganga was actually opposing a Congress gov decision to allocate six contracts for mining in it's government prior to 2007. The contractors were already facing government and court action but one of the six parties had managed to get a stay on government proceedings. So feel free to follow DDM but the blowback will be for UK cong.

Vadivel · Post by **Vadivel** » 17 Jun 2011 12:57

seld deleted

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 17 Jun 2011 13:12

Harbans, Somdev
Isnt it a flight of fantasy to try and "plug loopholes" or discuss solutions to any problem, when you know for sure that the government will not only not implement it but resist it with all the power the government machinery provides it ?

You dont seem to agree with the above proposition. You think you can get the government to follow your prescription. You think the reason governments so far, BJP or INC have not tackled corruption yet is because they are waiting for Somdev, Harbans and now Nataraja to come up with some ingenious solution which had been escaping them so far, despite their desperate search for it.

Please dont lecture me on staying with the topic. Why does it offend you, when I criticize a particular solution commonly offered for tackling corruption on this forum and outside (ie., 9% growth). I am not critical of 9% growth any more than I am critical of my father or my family. Let me assure you, I really really believe growth is good. It is very good. It is even better than chocolate. It solves many problems. But it doesnt, by itself, solve the problem of corruption. Growth by itself doesnt solve many other major problems we face. On the other hand, if corruption continues unchecked and unabated, 9% growth in the long run will be a pipe dream, and if achieved at all, will be achieved by flim flamming numbers(which ironically we accuse China of doing, unfairly, I might add) or by allowing a runaway inflationary environment, in which case 9% will in actuality be 3%.

All I gather from your posts is that you prefer arm chairing, highly hypothetical and academic discussions and intellectual "spanking of the monkey" as opposed to a serious solution to a serious problem. The problem of corruption cannot be solved without making a government responsive. First you have to find a solution to the problem of "unresponsive government" of either party. Once you have solved that, the problem of corruption will almost automatically be solved, the way you erroneously think 9% growth will automatically solve it.

I suggest you stop name calling, and strictly focus on finding a solution to making an unresponsive government, more responsive. If you are up for that, I will engage with you, otherwise, allow me to follow my line of thinking and you pursue your line in parallel. Just dont force me to follow your agenda and presume that yours is the only line of thinking permitted on this thread. I will engage with other people other than you, if we cant agree, but on this thread.

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 17 Jun 2011 13:16

Arjun wrote: 1. Political retribution for any party that has indulged in systematic corruption
2. A debate on Lokpal and other immediate measures to be put in place so acts of corruption can be identified and caught early
3. Tackling longer term systemic issues that fundamentally give rise to corruption. This requires rethinking the entire model / system of governance and which areas and how the government should involve itself in

You are probably right. There is wide consensus on the points you have mentioned above not just in this discussion, but also in real world, but the practical contention, at least in my opinion, is actually around your point #1 above.

Those who have carried out corruption or privileged by it, don't feel that they should be punished for it or loose their privileges even if the country becomes less corrupt. The corrupt also feel that the country should be less corrupt as they themselves are victimized by it at many levels. Although, the worst once feel that they have full rights to their wealth and privileges obtained through corrupt means and almost in all cases, no one would want to give these up.

So the slower the process, the more time these people will have to re-orient and re-organize so as to preserve their ill gotten wealth and privileges. In my opinion, under a sustained public pressure, the government is buying time. The key would be how to maintain a steady sustained pressure on the government without any relaxation.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 17 Jun 2011 16:16

This will not be a piece of cake, for anyone.If this issue continues to draw attention of the youth, it will become a spearhead that will eventually divide Indians into two groups - people who want this bill passed and people who don't want this bill passed.Believe me, common sense logic tells me that more than 75% people want this bill.This is a prescription for future unrest, and possibly a revolution,an Indian Spring, it is simmering deep down under,and will eventually surface into the open someday. Wake up time for sleeping youth.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 17 Jun 2011 16:45

nataraja wrote:Harbans, Somdev

All I gather from your posts is that you prefer arm chairing, highly hypothetical and academic discussions and intellectual "spanking of the monkey" as opposed to a serious solution to a serious problem. The problem of corruption cannot be solved without making a government responsive. First you have to find a solution to the problem of "unresponsive government" of either party. Once you have solved that, the problem of corruption will almost automatically be solved, the way you erroneously think 9% growth will automatically solve it.

What we are seeing here is that one group of people sticking to policies which should be implemented to tackle grey areas on various spheres like telecom. Had they stuck to that, they would have seen a far bigger receptive audience in this thread. But they went further and discredited every other line of thinking. The contention was that every suggestion to tackle corruption must translate into policy. If it cannot, then it aint good enough . And every thing else that is not policy is then grouped under revolution/flogging and executing.
No, I am not discrediting their stance. Quite valid and very pertinent, but the larger question remains and the Natraj has just made that abundantly clear - it is intent to change.
It is this which is forced on the government.The BR AH stuff is just that - making the government responsive THROUGH policy OR, show the goddamn intent to change.

Of course, the GoI says it cannot allow a parallel system to come up. But the bill itself has been there for 40 odd years. So successive governments, and a majority of them Congress have dithered. IOW, the intent was never there. Quite naturally , something that has been blocked for decades is bound to build up pressure. Unless the government yields a lot more to the Lokpal , it will be construed as lack of intent and rightly so. And so we are back again , just like AH how is returning back to his fast.

And sorry, flog , execute, dharmic sense, AIDs cure , growth blah blah are for those who would prefer to look into the noise part and take off into tangents.
The movement is there because it has shown that 60 years on, corrupt practices have NOT stopped.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 17 Jun 2011 17:00

You are right on. The shooting off at tangents is a divisive manouvre many are good at. FACT is corruption is rampant, we see it everyday wherever we go and we have to end it. At least there is discussion now on the topic.We should be welcoming any new viewpoints (like Nataraja's) on this forum to keep it going, or the thread fades off into oblivion till "bang" someone makes news headlines and people rush to the thread and pour their feelings about the related event.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 17 Jun 2011 17:35

nataraja wrote:Harbans, Somdev
Isnt it a flight of fantasy to try and "plug loopholes" or discuss solutions to any problem, when you know for sure that the government will not only not implement it but resist it with all the power the government machinery provides it

Nataraj-ji, Somedev (dev varman) is preparing for the Wimbledon

Anyways, I am yet to see any of your "grounded" (as opposed to flights of fantasy) suggestions on how to deal with the issue...

Neela wrote:It is this which is forced on the government.The BR AH stuff is just that - making the government responsive THROUGH policy OR, show the goddamn intent to change

Of course, no doubts....Just that the impact of a focused effort with clear objectives (the AH effort) has a better chance of delivering results, compared to a quasi-political (or maybe fully political) sloganeering venture (BR).....

The other important thing to remember for every civil soceity type, including internet warriors, is that finally the battle needs to be fought in the realm of parliamentary politics..I already sense the AH team getting ahead of themselves in that respect...Far from there being a disillusionment with the democratic political process, there is actually a deepening of society's engagement with it...Exemplified by unprecedented, and increasing voting %s in elections...No one, certainly not a few self-selected people, accomplished as they are, can say "my way or the highway, or I fast"....

Pressurise the govt to act, have clear objectives, propose the policy alternatives, and force the govt to take it to Parliament...If the govt doesnt act, or "kills it before birth", then vote that govt out...

Talking about society's moral degeneration, mainowad, X-tian evangelism et al - well...

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 17 Jun 2011 18:21

The other important thing to remember for every civil soceity type, including internet warriors, is that finally the battle needs to be fought in the realm of parliamentary politics..I already sense the AH team getting ahead of themselves in that respect...Far from there being a disillusionment with the democratic political process, there is actually a deepening of society's engagement with it...Exemplified by unprecedented, and increasing voting %s in elections...No one, certainly not a few self-selected people, accomplished as they are, can say "my way or the highway, or I fast"

. It is a disillusionment with the EXISTING setup which is leading to the creation of a independent UNELECTED body. What has happened here is the will of the people, has manifested into a body that oversees a system the people themselves elected . Isn't it because of the lack of faith in the latter? So what does that tell you about the existing political processes and setup ?
You could argue that the body is not what the will of the people is. And the Congress government can do the same and stop engaging with these "clowns". Yet the Congress government is everywhere and nowhere with both AH and BR. What does that tell you? It shows that parliamentary politics is not the only battleground no?
These processes are just that - processes. A monotonous motion . It does not and will not replace will.

compared to a quasi-political (or maybe fully political) sloganeering venture (BR).....

You haven't hid your displeasure of BR too subtlety. And you are quite callous and dismissive about him. But for the COngress, he is quite something to handle....at least from the number of headless chickens running around. So the very "political / democratic setup " you so highly regard seem to be rattled by this uneducated country buffoon.

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 17 Jun 2011 18:30

somnath wrote:
nataraja wrote:Harbans, Somdev
Isnt it a flight of fantasy to try and "plug loopholes" or discuss solutions to any problem, when you know for sure that the government will not only not implement it but resist it with all the power the government machinery provides it
Nataraj-ji, Somedev (dev varman) is preparing for the Wimbledon

Anyways, I am yet to see any of your "grounded" (as opposed to flights of fantasy) suggestions on how to deal with the issue...

Neela wrote:It is this which is forced on the government.The BR AH stuff is just that - making the government responsive THROUGH policy OR, show the goddamn intent to change
Of course, no doubts....Just that the impact of a focused effort with clear objectives (the AH effort) has a better chance of delivering results, compared to a quasi-political (or maybe fully political) sloganeering venture (BR).....

The other important thing to remember for every civil soceity type, including internet warriors, is that finally the battle needs to be fought in the realm of parliamentary politics..I already sense the AH team getting ahead of themselves in that respect...Far from there being a disillusionment with the democratic political process, there is actually a deepening of society's engagement with it...Exemplified by unprecedented, and increasing voting %s in elections...No one, certainly not a few self-selected people, accomplished as they are, can say "my way or the highway, or I fast"....

Pressurise the govt to act, have clear objectives, propose the policy alternatives, and force the govt to take it to Parliament...If the govt doesnt act, or "kills it before birth", then vote that govt out...

Talking about society's moral degeneration, mainowad, X-tian evangelism et al - well...

I disagree with you that "the battle needs to be fought in the realm of parliamentary politics" and that "there is actually a deepening of society's engagement with it".

The first assertion that "the battle needs to be fought in the realm of parliamentary politics" is merely your opinion. Why do you think so ?

The second that "there is actually a deepening of society's engagment with the democratic process" is also your opinion, not fact. There is no evidence that middle class and/or intellectuals are voting in any greater numbers or percentages than before. The number keeps going up and down, but it stays in a pretty low range. The problem is that a large majority of the population that votes in India votes based on emotional issues such as "caste". Every now and then frustration with the status quo comes bursting out and people transcend petty caste type considerations to "throw the bums out". This has happened but very rarely - too rarely to make any government in India or the Indian states responsive. Besides, when the population does rise on those rare occasions to throw the bums out, it inevitably picks another set of bums. THIS ACT OF THE INDIAN ELECTORATE OF VOTING ALONG CASTE LINES AND ALTERNATING BETWEEN PICKING OF BUMS, ITSELF, IS AN ACT OF CORRUPTION, AND FROM IT STEMS ALL THE REST OF THE CORRUPTION THAT THEN MANIFESTS ITSELF in our society. I SUBMIT THAT THE WAY TO FIX IT, PURELY IN INDIAN CONTEXT, IS NOT TO EMPOWER AND APPEASE THIS BEHAVIOUR BY THE MASSES, BUT TO DISEMPOWER THE MASSES, A LA CHINESE OR SINGAPOREAN STYLE AND EDUCATE THE MASSES FIRST, JUST LIKE THE CHINESE OR SINGAPORE LEE DID, BEFORE EMPOWERING THEM AGAIN TO ELECT THEIR GOVERNMENTS, when they start exhibiting more healthy behaviour, not just in voting but in all aspects of their lives.

Please dont get me wrong. I dont think of our masses as this uneducated or stupid bunch of people. I dont look down upon them. To the contrary. I think that an average Indian(not just the intellectuals or the upper echelons) today is very smart and quite capable of thought and deep analysis(far more than I think I am capable of). Therefore, an average Indian's voting patterns seem inexplicable in view of their intelligence, doesnt it ? Not, if you consider that an average Indian has gotten corrupt. Therefore, his voting patterns emerge out of his corrupt nature. If you look at it that way, an average Indian's voting patterns no longer remain a mystery, then they start making sense. A corrupt person will vote out of narrow considerations. A corrupt person will vote based on emotions such as unnecessary hatred and urge to destruct instead of construct. A corrupt person will vote for very short term gratification at the expense of the medium and the long term. A corrupt person will vote to destroy a community as opposed to building a community or a nation. A corrupt person will always find ways to not work together, but create unnecessary conflict, just to cater to his own unhealthy compulsions. Of course in the long run, this behaviour arising out of corruption and unhealthy psychological compulsions results in death and suicide. But in the short term, everyone can get momentary pleasure by fulfillment of their respective destructive impulses. Growing up, we all knew that one kid who would get vicarious pleasure out of destroying all his own toys and his friends'. Well an overwhelming majority of voters in India today are that kid.

I for one, would be willing to give up a lot of the freedoms I enjoy and make a tradeoff for a Chinese or a Singaporean model, because that is the only way I see our people surviving in the long run. Before everyone gets all riled up about the specific Chinese or Singaporean models, I am open to developing and accepting a new model, which fundamentally alters our own behaviour and conduct to be more in tune with normal survival instincts rather than suicidal instincts of any human beings. I am not necessarily married to the Chinese or the Singaporean models, but I am absolutely of the opinion that the current system we have needs radical change.