The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 17 Jun 2011 18:53

I for one, would be willing to give up a lot of the freedoms I enjoy and make a tradeoff for a Chinese or a Singaporean model, because that is the only way I see our people surviving in the long run.

IS NOT TO EMPOWER AND APPEASE THIS BEHAVIOUR BY THE MASSES, BUT TO DISEMPOWER THE MASSES,

Ah great. You want a dictatorship. You want to usurp the constitution of India. WHat makes you think you're more educated on what the country requires than the 'masses'?

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 17 Jun 2011 18:56

harbans wrote:
I for one, would be willing to give up a lot of the freedoms I enjoy and make a tradeoff for a Chinese or a Singaporean model, because that is the only way I see our people surviving in the long run.

IS NOT TO EMPOWER AND APPEASE THIS BEHAVIOUR BY THE MASSES, BUT TO DISEMPOWER THE MASSES,
Ah great. You want a dictatorship. You want to usurp the constitution of India. WHat makes you think you're more educated on what the country requires than the 'masses'?

I may not be. But Indians in general, maybe even including me, require re-education.

I know you think you dont, because you know it all already, which makes you a self styled "more educated than others". You are entitled to your opinion.

By the way, isnt it ironic. Any objective view will hold that the worst form of autocratic government in history, the military regimes of Pakistan, have done better for their country, than Indian democratic regimes for our country. Pakistan has played its weak cards remarkably well to create a standoff with a country many times its size and that has so many "Harbanses".
Now, Now, dont take this to mean that I am advocating a Paki style military dictatorship. Far from it. But I certainly am all for radically altering a system that has done worst than the Paki military. And please, Harbans, dont go about talking about that 9% growth. If it comes down to it, I would happily trade that 9% growth in the short term, for long term security and territorial integrity of our nation. I do agree with Bhuttos, "We will eat grass" proposition, only in the reverse, meaning in Indian interests.

nikkap · Post by **nikkap** » 17 Jun 2011 19:00

[quote="harbans"]They fought for freedom. It was well known the freedoms we possess manifested in a democratic process. I don't know what else you imply or see in my statement.

yes they fought for freedom no debate but they don't want democractic process in place that is all there is. After that nomatter how much debate you & all other do in this forum is irrelevant

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 17 Jun 2011 19:10

^^^^wow, not only is authoritarianism the elixir against all our woes, the Paki model of it has worked better than India's democracy?

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 17 Jun 2011 19:19

But Indians in general, maybe even including me, require re-education.

Thats one statement i think i can agree with you on.

Re-education, better to eat grass..now what makes me smell a Paki/ Chinese link here somewhere...

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 17 Jun 2011 19:40

harbans wrote:But Indians in general, maybe even including me, require re-education.

Thats one statement i think i can agree with you on.

Re-education, better to eat grass..now what makes me smell a Paki/ Chinese link here somewhere...

When all arguments fail, call someone a Paki or a Chinese.

How would you like it, if I called you a "Khalistani" ? Not very much, I am sure. So I will not call you that.

I knew you would agree with my statement that Indians in general including me require re-education. As long as it doesnt include you. A casual observer may question your patriotism based on that statement alone.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 17 Jun 2011 19:42

harbans wrote:
I for one, would be willing to give up a lot of the freedoms I enjoy and make a tradeoff for a Chinese or a Singaporean model, because that is the only way I see our people surviving in the long run.

IS NOT TO EMPOWER AND APPEASE THIS BEHAVIOUR BY THE MASSES, BUT TO DISEMPOWER THE MASSES,
Ah great. You want a dictatorship. You want to usurp the constitution of India. WHat makes you think you're more educated on what the country requires than the 'masses'?

Harbans,
For a member like you, understanding and engaging new posters should prevail over snap conclusions. Please delve a little deeper into his post.

Let us remind ourselves. Pratyush Sinha , ex-CVC said this:
One in three Indians 'utterly corrupt': watchdog head
And compare that with what Natraj wrote.

It does mean that I concur with Natraj completely. Just that when the ex-CVC has written something that supports _one_ of Natraj's points, his views need a little more understanding than the mere fascist/authoritarian paint people tend to so flippantly use.

Re-education, better to eat grass..now what makes me smell a Paki/ Chinese link here somewhere..

.
Petty, cheap shot under the belt.

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 17 Jun 2011 19:44

Neela,

Do you play tennis ?

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 17 Jun 2011 19:46

Harbans,

I am not saying that you are an exception. You are pretty much the rule for an Indian. But I would like to delve deeper and understand the psyche of the likes of you.

Exactly how did you get so invested in corruption ? Can you enlighten us as to how you got to this point ? Kinda an autobiography ?

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 17 Jun 2011 19:49

Neela Ji, no that's not cheap one bit for someone eulogizing Pakistan and Chinese systems. Talking about subverting the constitution and replacing it with an authoritarian regime does not belong to Bharat Rakshak IMHO. Saying that Pakistan's military regimes have done a better job for their country than India's democracy is a cheap shot IMHO.

That's exactly how Hitler came into power. Riding on German outrage at the treaty of Versailles. Rest we know what happened in Germany. I mentioned the danger of this dangerous train of thought riding on the outrage and bringing changes that may set the country back decades. These are exactly the type of dangerous sentiments being given a free ride here too now.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 17 Jun 2011 20:11

NEW DELHI — Almost one-third of Indians are "utterly corrupt" and half are "borderline", the outgoing head of the country's corruption watchdog has said, blaming increased wealth for much of the problem.

Neela Ji, From the link you gave. He also talks of betting syndicates etc. This is a topic we discussed earlier. If Indians were indeed so corrupt, and this was mentioned earlier, then how is it that the same Indians when they go outside not just shine but also have the least conviction ratio for crime abroad in developed societies? Oh you'll brush it off with a better system.

You agree with the person who wants to subvert India's constitution and instate democracy with authoritarianism and have no qualms about agreeing Pakistani military regimes have performed better than India..

So many examples have been littered here with examples how major corruption in sectors was plugged by systemic reform. Yet that doesn't register. Cool lets reduce the standards here to deff and dumb. Enter dictatorships, authoritarianism. Be prepared to eat grass, and re-education camps.... Viva China Viva Pakistan!

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 17 Jun 2011 20:38

+10 to that Harbans ji.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 17 Jun 2011 20:50

harbans wrote:Swamy Ji, remove them, i don't care. But if you think just removing INC and getting BJP in will solve the problem, you are mistaken. The problem will remain.

I have never said or implied that. Have I? I always start with the assumption that the politicians are humans and will take care of their interests first. Statesmen, visionaries, nationalists on the other hand, will be wedded to their ideologies. And we need both groups to run the country. Politicians can and will do the dirty work that it takes to run a country. The ideologues will not readily compromise.

If you think that just educating people about civic sense and respect towards fellow citizenry is enough, you still will keep having scams.

Where did I say or think that? In fact I have agreed with you that policies are necessary too. I welcome all baby-steps. IIRC, it was you who brought in the civic sense topic into the discussion, and not me. I have said that policy alone will not prevent these corruption. Are you telling me that Sonia, PC and other politicians are having black money in India and elsewhere only because there is not a sound policy? Seriously, tell me you are not saying that politicians, leaders, gurus, swamis, visionaries, common people are hiding money only because there are no sound policies in India? If you are saying that then it clearly points out the problem with us all. What I am saying is irrespective of the law of the land, people will find means to hide their money and be corrupt unless they themselves reform and become clean.

I am beginning to see two views in these discussions. Some of you are recommending the clean-up from top-down and some of us are recommending bottoms-up approach. However, I belong to the latter group am willing to give credit to top-down approach too. I am not sure why there should be just attempts from one or a few angles to solve issues. The top-down approach is more from a State's perspective, depending on who is ruling it could be benevolent or state-policing - which in itself is not bad. The bottom-top approach is reform of the people.

The system should be able to cope up with flawed people in it>

I am all with you to better a system. A system will be better when it is improved and people who abuse it are punished. When I say an investigation has to be carried out on some select leaders for their direct and indirect role, are you with me? The system will cope only if the bad apples are far few and do not cross the threshold.

Tell me what policies would have to be placed to prevent
1) A. Raja, Suresh Kalmadi etc from looting lakhs of crores
2) If the allegations are correct, then Sonia, P.Chidambaram etc to hide massive money outside India. I recently heard P.Chidambaram's son owns rainforests in South America. That in itself is not wrong, but speaks the volume of money in our hands leaving the shores.

There is a great proverb in tamil that says, thievery cannot be removed unless the thieves decide to reform themselves.

The major difference then in our stance is that you are not urging for INC leaders to be punished, and investigation to be carried out. Else, we agree in most points. Right? If you think there are areas of clear disagreement, do state them.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 17 Jun 2011 20:58

somnath wrote: The answer to all of that is existance of good policy...

I think negi correctly questioned you, I am not seeing any exact connection. The most relevant portion is your point of everything can be solved based on "good policy". Whereas, most of us will not deny good policies are necessary, many of us will definitely say good policies alone are not the solution. Rudradev has articulated well about the implementation, I think I said it too but not as clearly and emphatically as Rudradevji.

Let us get begin from these lines:
1) Why do you think A.Raja and Suresh Kalmadi stole/cheated so much money?
2) Why do you think politicians and business people have hidden away money outside the shores of India?

negi · Post by **negi** » 17 Jun 2011 21:04

This dhaga now produces more methane that the biggest gobar gas plant I saw in my life; may be it's time to lock it; heck even BRD has broken his fast.
The bojitive spin is I can claim victory on BENIS as we have 10 bercenti while banias in India have only 9 percentis.

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 17 Jun 2011 21:09

harbans wrote:
I for one, would be willing to give up a lot of the freedoms I enjoy and make a tradeoff for a Chinese or a Singaporean model, because that is the only way I see our people surviving in the long run.

IS NOT TO EMPOWER AND APPEASE THIS BEHAVIOUR BY THE MASSES, BUT TO DISEMPOWER THE MASSES,
Ah great. You want a dictatorship. You want to usurp the constitution of India. WHat makes you think you're more educated on what the country requires than the 'masses'?

The wish to upsurp the "constitution of India" as you so put it is a reaction to the usurping and loot of the constitution that has been going on by government functionaries in cahoots with media and business owners, and in many cases foreign entities. In many ways the constitution has already been usurped. You just don't know it.

Ultimately the public anger will manifest itself sooner or later if the government does not mend it's ways. I am personally hoping for a complete civil unrest to dislodge the corrupt and put them in Jail. Corruption is a bigger problem that terrorism and this country needs similar laws to deal with corruption, i.e a person should be put in jail just on mear suspicion of corrutpion until he/she can prove him/her self honest.

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 17 Jun 2011 21:18

harbans wrote: Neela Ji, From the link you gave. He also talks of betting syndicates etc. This is a topic we discussed earlier. If Indians were indeed so corrupt, and this was mentioned earlier,

If India was so corrupt??? You mean to tell me that there is actually a debate where one party is arguging that India is not corrupt while as another party is arguing that India is corrupt. Give me a break. What quantitative measures can you present to backup your point that India is not so corrupt. If you can't, then I suggest stop making such loose statements.

then how is it that the same Indians when they go outside not just shine but also have the least conviction ratio for crime abroad in developed societies? Oh you'll brush it off with a better system.

Because the criminals find it easier to gravitate towards government. The system is skewed in favor of the corrupt; while as, honest citizens find it easier to gravitate towards honest job. Is this such a big mystery?

You agree with the person who wants to subvert India's constitution and instate democracy with authoritarianism and have no qualms about agreeing Pakistani military regimes have performed better than India..

Anger manifests itself in many ways and I am personally surprised that it hans't come out on streets yet, but off course we have come close to that with Ramdev fiasco (where all credit goes to Ramdev and his supporters for remaining cool in face of a corrupt government's crackdown on a peaceful protest). Believe it or not, you may not have the such luxary next time.

So many examples have been littered here with examples how major corruption in sectors was plugged by systemic reform.

I will try to take this up at a later time.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 17 Jun 2011 21:23

Good post Swamy Ji, in agreement with most of it. The reason why i state BJP, instilling civic sense etc because as mentioned, scams are not restricted to one political entity. INC by virtue of being more in power and knowing the ropes and loopholes better, would IMHO naturally have a higher degree of corruption prevalent. I am maintaining the stand that corruption cuts across party lines. To reduce or come close to eliminating it from a standalone POV, neither change of party or instilling civic sense would work. Only from the standalone point of view. They will certainly help in reducing it but to only some extent. From the standalone POV it's policy reform that will work.

Now there's a good point raised that by themselves the Politicians will resist changes.

Are you telling me that Sonia, PC and other politicians are having black money in India and elsewhere only because there is not a sound policy? Seriously, tell me you are not saying that politicians, leaders, gurus, swamis, visionaries, common people are hiding money only because there are no sound policies in India?

Swamy Ji, i am. Swiss bank accounts we all know are not new for example. Why did they happen? To run elections. Where do parties get monies to fight elections for example? Black money stashed. Made by extending privileges to Companies for business benefits. Why does that happen? Because the system does not allow transparent financing of political parties in public view.

The country is undergoing a transition from austerity and shortage economy to wealthier times. In the past wealth was looked down upon and there was a wealth tax of 90 plus percentage. That literally forced people into corruption. That forced people into stashing money into off shore banks. That created an unhealthy non transparent nexus between Business and the ruling elite. This continued and rhetorical slogans were enough to get parties elected on slogans like Garibi hatao etc. So politicians wore Khadi and piled money into Swiss banks or buying rain forests in the Amazon.

When banking laws and taxation became rational, people also enjoyed the good nights sleep that comes with paying taxes. Direct taxation in this country are rising rapidly with better accountability. We have done some reforms and have obviously benefited from them. We also have a long way to go still i agree.

Another reform i think that needs be done is getting the fear of being sacked into GOI babu's. Today still they can misbehave and get away with it, primarily because it's still very difficult to get a marching order on an inefficient or corrupt employee. The boss is helpless. I am all for the Lok Pal ushering in some change. But not change where vested interests hijack the movement in favor of authoritarianism but change to force the GOI to plug the existing gaps in various sectors.

I am also of your view that there should not be a singular way to approach. But the core will always be reformation of the system. Even the Lok Pal Bill intends to do the same.

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 17 Jun 2011 21:25

Dhiman,

You couldnt be more right. The poor Constitution of India not only has already been usurped, it is clawed, bitten, raped, abused, tormented and stomped on everyday by the corrupt. Unfortunately, the corrupt are not just the politicians and political parties, it is us the citizens. Normally, even if a nation has a corrupt government, it is probably not the case that the citizens are corrupt too, just that the corrupt government has usurped too much power to be removed by the honest citizenry. But unfortunately, in our case, the citizenry is corrupt, which is then manifested in the corruption in the governmental institutions. There is some serious surgery required in our body politic and our citizenry as well.

Harbans, you are not Digvijay Singh in disguise, are you ? Your defense of the corrupt structure and poisonous vitriol against those who oppose corruption is very "Digvijay" like.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 17 Jun 2011 21:32

Because the criminals find it easier to gravitate towards government. The system is skewed in favor of the corrupt; while as, honest citizens find it easier to gravitate towards honest job. Is this such a big mystery?

Dhiman Ji, if you are questioning me you also read then what i have written. I am saying exactly that. I have posted that the lack of reform in the system is attracting criminal minded people into politics. Specific solutions to make it less attractive to the corrupt have been given. Please go through the posts at least.

What quantitative measures can you present to backup your point that India is not so corrupt. If you can't, then I suggest stop making such loose statements.

I have not said India is not corrupt. I have said Indians are not inherently corrupt. I have given specific examples to ascertain and prove that. I have maintained that a license raj system will attract corruption. Change it and the incentive vanishes. I have maintained that high wealth tax will attract flow of funds off shore. Change it and that desire to bank off shore vanishes.What is it that you don't understand ?

If you think that getting angry and coming on the streets will help, tell me how it does. Anger will not solve problems IMHO.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 17 Jun 2011 21:51

harbans wrote:
NEW DELHI — Almost one-third of Indians are "utterly corrupt" and half are "borderline", the outgoing head of the country's corruption watchdog has said, blaming increased wealth for much of the problem.
Neela Ji, From the link you gave. He also talks of betting syndicates etc. This is a topic we discussed earlier. If Indians were indeed so corrupt, and this was mentioned earlier, then how is it that the same Indians when they go outside not just shine but also have the least conviction ratio for crime abroad in developed societies? Oh you'll brush it off with a better system.

You agree with the person who wants to subvert India's constitution and instate democracy with authoritarianism and have no qualms about agreeing Pakistani military regimes have performed better than India..

So many examples have been littered here with examples how major corruption in sectors was plugged by systemic reform. Yet that doesn't register. Cool lets reduce the standards here to deff and dumb. Enter dictatorships, authoritarianism. Be prepared to eat grass, and re-education camps.... Viva China Viva Pakistan!

Harbans,
Relax. Sip Cola.
Despite my explicit highlighting that I agree with ONE of Natraj's points, you write this. What is this? Guilty by association? And you sit on some pedestal accusing others of lowering standards on this forum.
Chillax.
It ain't as much to rile me up. And I have seen the fascist /authoritarian / dictatoship argument far too often and peddled dime a dozen. Not taking anyone anywhere.
-------------

When the ex-CVC states something like that , there is a lot of merit in it. It is mental state where things have become so prevalent that people accept it to be the norm.
While Natraj#s method were extreme, the underlying fact is that a lot of people, mass swathes in fact need to be informed of
1. Cleanliness
2. Traffic
3. Civic sense
4. Social responsibilities.

I for one am not willing to believe that we have 10% growth , all is well. A responsible society knows and implements certain fundamental issues well.
What you are doing is talking of one particular area. What I am saying is that that alone is not sufficient. PLease read my earlier posts.

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 17 Jun 2011 21:58

Neela,

You mentioned you only agree with me on one point. I am looking forward to a spirited discussion with you on issues that I have raised that you dont agree with. Since I agree with everything you have posted, I have a lot of respect for you and perhaps, I could learn something, when you make a counter point.

nikkap · Post by **nikkap** » 17 Jun 2011 22:03

I cannot ask for more better audience then this so I ask everyone to please help me to uproot this corrupt system please let us discuss s what is most important. intelligence that I have seen in this forum is extraordinary let’s put it to proper use. i have made phone calls/send emails to anna hazare & ramdev group but nobody is willing to listen but can I expect co-operation from you guys please let me know.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 17 Jun 2011 22:23

I for one am not willing to believe that we have 10% growth , all is well.

No, no one implied everything is OK. It's not, that's even i am spending time on this thread, because i do believe everything is not. But lets not dismiss the growth, it's genuine and it means that a lot of things have been done right also. The system worked exactly as designed (not intended, please note the difference). It even detected the scams. GOI institutions themselves exposed many of these scams. So let me put it this way: But the design was not good enough such that instruments could catch it real time or that design would give such powers to Ministers who could pull off such a thing.

So as we see a 10% growth does do many things. It will put hundreds of millions out of poverty, provide more money to defense and security issues, provide more money for social and health services and it already has had the effect. A 2% growth rate for those that prefer to eat grass..will provide no security, impoverish hundreds of millions, perpetuate sloganeering and drain of wealth to outside the country. We cannot afford to destroy growth in our anger. Our Governing systems may not be perfect, but they have not failed completely. Our job must be to rectify that.

As for believing the CVC, he says corruption is because of materialism. But what exactly is wrong with legitimate materialism? The present disgust is nothing compared to the disgust in the 70's and 80's on gold smuggling. People i argued then talked of bringing emergency and stuff to solve such corruption. What removed that? One simple line of change. 2 decades of emotional energy just evaporated and a major problem solved. The Haji Mastans out of business.

If the System was not the problem and as according to the CVC and you, Indians are corrupt by nature, tell me why Indians abroad in millions have the lowest conviction rates? It simply means the CVC is taking a left socialist view clear from his disgust at materialism. It also simply means provide Indians with a fair transparent set up, and they will go about their daily lives with honesty and diligence. Thus it boils down to the correct reforms in the functioning of the industries alone really. Other points yes i give will help, but not bring about stand alone by itself change. By others i imply what has been stated here by myself and others: Instilling more civic sense, swift retribution (part of systemic reform really), creating awareness etc. Others like calling for Authoritarianism and undermining the constitution or getting forum space to praise Pakistani and Chinese systems is outright dangerous.

I agree with ONE of Natraj's points

I too agree with ONE of his points..on him requiring re education.

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 17 Jun 2011 22:37

Indians are NOT corrupt by nature. No one ever said that. Stop putting words in my mouth, Harbans.

But I did say and do believe that Indians in India have gotten corrupt.

Because I believe we Indians are not corrupt by nature, I believe our corruption can be FIXED. But not without us going through major surgery, as the disease has progressed too far. That still doesnt mean we are corrupt by nature. Just because someone has cancer at one particular time, doesnt mean one is "cancerous" by nature. But cancer does require radical treatment.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Jun 2011 23:30

No Force used against Ramdev's supporters Police tells SC
beat Gobbells.

No wonder they confiscated all the videos during the raid.
Next they will say the poor lady injured herself.

deepan gill · Post by **deepan gill** » 18 Jun 2011 00:10

Not all Indians are corrupt but most Indians will pay bribes to get the job done.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 18 Jun 2011 00:15

Can we have a list of non-corrupt Netas since 1947. This would give a good idea in perspective.I wonder how many will fill the list. Let us exclude Gandhi from the list, he died after acheiving the goal of Independence.His place is unique in our history.
At the top of this list I place Lal Bahadur Shastri who was unceremoniously murdered in Tashkent. He was one really uncorrupted soul. I am struggling to think of more names.Down the lane we can add Dr Man Mohan Singh.In-between, I wonder who all came and went.

nikkap · Post by **nikkap** » 18 Jun 2011 00:21

sanjeevpunj wrote:. I am struggling to think of more names.Down the lane we can add Dr Man Mohan Singh.In-between, I wonder who all came and went.

dr manmohan singh is a corrupt person i don't know from where this notion comes that he is clean.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 18 Jun 2011 00:44

nataraja ji,
thanks for a very important observation : (in fact several which I feel lies at the heart of the debate here)

I cannot make
A = (not)A

In fact you can. It is called "dialectics", or at least the simplistic interpretation of whatever is claimed to be so - only, and politically, by Marxists. Leftists all hues broadly subscribe to it. Because they do, you will find a reflection of that logic in almost everything that comes from a broadly "left" position [with some hilarious exceptions of course].

In fact this is the logical system which is immediately reflected in long and persistent harangues about why

Corruption = (not) Corruption

.
People will cry wolf, since it will not be directly apparent that such a claim has been made so far. But think carefully - if you insist that "corruption" happens because of "bad policy", and it would not have happened if "good policies" were in place, then it makes "corruption" a result determined by "policy". This makes "policy" the real culprit, and responsibility for "corruption" shifts to those who make "policies". It also makes "corruption" and "policy-making" two separate, and distinct entities.

Thus if you say that "corruption" is a systemic response to the system itself, it cannot be dubbed "corruption" - it is simply the optimal response from those using the system trying to maximize their own benefits [ in fact a short step from here is to state the underpinnings of most of modern "respectable" economics - that economic agents act in "self-interest" to maximize payoffs - and therefore if "corruption" is a best response to the system, it cannot be really "corruption"]. Therefore, the dialectical logic applies, and makes "corruption = (NOT) corruption".

and similarly I cant make

INC = (NOT) Corrupt or INC = (NOT) Criminals

and I grant you, I cant also make

BJP = (NOT) Corrupt

This of course is slightly problematic. Perhaps the appropriate comparison would have been, in keeping with your earlier statements, "INC = (NOT) INC", "corrupt=(NOT) corrupt", "criminals = (NOT) criminals", and "BJP = (NOT) BJP".

In fact if we apply the logical line state above by me - that humans work in "self-interest" to maximize their payoffs from interactions with other humans [just a statement/hypothesis - plenty of debates exist about this], all of the above statements will be perfectly logical.

A corrupt person is after all only responding to the prevailing system, in the best possible strategy available to him/her to maximize his/her gains from the system. Apparently he is breaking some "rules" of the game, and this is the source of the khujli. But this hides two important aspects of reality.

(1) first that no rules can be formed from before to anticipate all possible breaking of "rules" or bypasses. That would ultimately accumulate so much material on the simplest of rules in clarifications, that those rules will become almost impossible to implement by humans or "comprehended" (the infamous obsession on our forum!)

A fine example of "covering all aspects of human activity" by "laws" - at least as far as economics is concerned - was the erstwhile centralized "planned economies" like that of USSR. [ironically the finest examples of dialectics themselves - being planned = (NOT)planned simultaneously] Ultimately the problem is that given most people most of the time do appear to work along "self-interest" modes - if not individually, at least as subcollections [family/clan/or other subidentities], such economic agents found out ways to maximize and bypass the extreme micro-management that evolved in order to keep up with the complexity of a large economy. If they could not bypass, they would ultimately have no "interest" in perpetuating the system itself. [I am not going into possible differentials of "interest" connected to perceptions of relative deprivation.]

This leads to the second problem

(2) if you tighten up the screws of the system so much so, that most people, or the "most productive" groups do not anymore have an "interest", or see any potential "interest", then they would reject, or bypass the entire system. This is the so-called problem of incentives.

(1)+(2) leads to a see-saw of balance of forces -between the state and economic agents. As part of the state, economic agents are in conflict with purely "economic" interests. Thus behind all these high-decibel talk about good "policy" pre-determing "good outcomes" or "negation of corruption", lies a very old real conflict which is being glossed over.

The fight is really between those economic agents who are the "strongest" in a given national economy [or international for that matter] and the existing "rules" of the game. Institutional "supposed" reform towards "eradication" of "corruption" always, always is undertaken as a compromise with the dominant economic power within the system.

People can look up one well-studied case of the judicial/anti-corruption movement that took place towards the end of the 18th century and early 19th century in UK. There are a sizable volume of research showing that primary concern for this "judicial activism" was directly concerned with protecting "private property" and "capital", a much needed concern of the slave-trade-profiteering set transformed into capitalist entrepreneurs and colonial financiers. Actually this judicial "activism" so much so concerned at "eradicating the evil" of greed etc, turned a heavy hand against popular franchise - which lagged behind this crusade against "corruption".

In order to gain political support for obtaining personal power, factions of the elite enlist popular [or less powerful segments of society but greater in numbers] support by raising issues of "corruption" among other things. Corruption is an easy catchword to strike a chord in the heart of the disempowered, because for the latter - it is the greed of the elite and their greater per-capita share of the social surplus that is a matter of utmost grievance. At the end of the process, the people might still not have obtained what they really hoped for - although it makes the career of this or that faction of the elite.

BR probably is most galling to the self-appointed "crusaders" against corruption as well as the claimants of sole credit for "economic reforms and growth" - is because he is ostensibly representing a segment of people not supposed to be directly claiming a share in the merry negotiations for "power" between factions of the "urban Left\centre" and politically "correct" elite. BR is bringing in non-urban, not-necessarily Left\Centre, not politically "correct" sections of the population - and thus threatens the monopoly over dissent that elite sekers of power hope to use.

The insistence and stress on "policy" reveals the underlying anxiety in the "mob" getting out of control, and target the bargains sought to be made in favour of "big capital" - for only "large scale" and "public servant induced" corruption is clamoured to be the target. The "anti-corruption" movement must gain the support of the people upto the right degree which the economic forces generating the movement require for their "self interest", but it must not gain independent power that could overthrow the gains from this bargaining itself.

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 18 Jun 2011 00:46

I have no evidence, but I am not willing to certify MM Singh as being even "money" clean.

But giving him the benefit of the doubt, that he is "money" clean, he is still corrupt in the worst possible way.

He is a slave and he is timid (no courage), not to mention, shameless.

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 18 Jun 2011 00:48

Brihaspati,

My hats off to you Sir. Brilliant observations. Very profound and right on the money.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 18 Jun 2011 00:51

Just in case, I said "logical" in the sense of "dialectical logic". I never said that I follow or support dialectical logic.

Sidhant · Post by **Sidhant** » 18 Jun 2011 00:52

My Two Cents on this Policy and Reforms issue,

Policy will only help those who have legitimate high income sources. Those with illegitimate high income sources (Read politicians and Babus), no policy changes can make them less corrupt or not stashing the money in foreign banks.
Even if tomorrow Tax rates become just one percent, one will need to provide his income and income source for correct taxation. How will the poeple getting cuts in deals explain the additional income, so they will keep on stashing money outside unless one can bring in a policy which can legitimate the wealth gotten but illlegitimate means. What kind of policy reforms do the Gurus suggest for such cases.

There are two main reasons for Tax evasion
1. Greed to save that money going in for tax. To some extend I agree reforms will help that, but India has much lower tax rates than many western countries but still high tax evasion. It is this class which you can convert by Tax reforms. But most of these poeple are smaller fishes.

2. The people who have generated wealth by illegal means (cuts and deals) these are the people imo who cannot be brought to abandon corruption without without strict laws and better justice sytem no matter what policy the Gurus might come up with.

I would like to reiterate my point that, just waiting for the next elections to throw the Govt of the day out is not the ideal solution. Democracy is noisy and peaceful protests are part of this noisy process which keep providing the Govt a feedback loop on its policies and functioing. The people who are frustrated with INC is due to the magnitude and the number of scams that have surfaced and instead of comming up with a Policy, govt is defaming the people protesting and even using the high handed measures (Ramlila ground fiasco). I am sorry to say that this instills very little confidence in the Govt that it will come up with a valid Lokpall bill or any kind of Policy or intrument in this measure.

Harbans ji, I feel the difficult part is not to come up with good policies. Good policies will surface automatically when we have a corum of good people formulating this policy. I feel the diffcult part is to get that corum and empower the honest leaders to come to such positions of infuence. Nitish Kumar and Modi has shown the way to the leaders that one can win elections based on Devleopment and good governance and to the people that voting based on development is better than voting based on castes.
The difficult part is to enbale the social engineering of our political class, which can be enabled only with a vigilant population and swift political retribution. The govts should be thrown out when they provide bad governance. The other party is equally corrupt should not be the excuse to throw the current one out. The natural checks and balances of human nature will not allow the two parties to share power peacefully and both the parties would want to hold on to power for a longer term which will set the ball rolling for better governance. Point is poeple need to persist on their demand of better governance and we need peaceful protests to keep the issue buring and current.

Expecting INC to come up with a transparent Lokpall bill reminds me of Seniors making Anti Ragging groups in colleges, where the members of the group used to be the most bullying seniors.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 18 Jun 2011 01:17

Formulating a thousand policies cannot escape the cold real fact in our country - without the iron hand of enforcement, even the loftiest of policies will fail. Our driving is enough of an example. Unless law enforcement agencies are backed and non-interference is followed by both state and central governments, nothing will work! Right from traffic police to ED to CBI to RAW, nobody will be able to catch a single offender/terrorist if they are not able to. Without a visible and real rod, people will always take the easy route to the destination without giving a fu(k about others. Will the lokpal bill bring about efficient enforcement? I doubt it. It appears to be another administrative idea to bring about discipline.

nikkap · Post by **nikkap** » 18 Jun 2011 01:22

nataraja wrote:I have no evidence, but I am not willing to certify MM Singh as being even "money" clean.

But giving him the benefit of the doubt, that he is "money" clean, he is still corrupt in the worst possible way.

He is a slave and he is timid (no courage), not to mention, shameless.

nataraja ji MMS has done a lot of harm to this country.let me clarify in 1987 when MMS is a member of southsouth commisson he did a research paper on the foreign investment in developing & he concluded that net result of liberalisation is capital always flowout from developing country to developed country.Now in 1991 just before election in india(rajiv gandhi was alive at that time.a french paper "LEMONDE" published an article stating that IMF has decided that MMS will be next FM OF INDIA irrespective of which party wins the election.after becoming FM he did a U-TURN on all his research & imposed the will of his masters on our country.

as per U.S. Congressional hearing records Indira Gandhi's family most likely Rajiv and Sonia, were on the payroll of the Pakistani Banker the late Agha Hassan Abedi, who founded the Bank known as Bank of Credit and Commerce International (BCCI).
BCCI was a drug money laundering outfit finally owned by the ruler of Abu Dhabi, Sheikh Zyed. Mr. Manmohan Singh when he was the governor of Reserve Bank of India was advised by RAW not to issue license for opening the ISI bank BCCI in Bombay as BCCI was funding spying in India and was also funding the Pakistani nuclear programme. Yet Manmohan simply approved it. BCCI was used even by Reliance for its hawala transactions. (BCCI had grown as a result of it running a supply centre for ‘Pakistani minor girls’ to Sheikh Zyed and other leading Sheikhs in the Gulf. Naturally Sheikh became the leading share holder of BCCI. These details are available in the US senate reports.) The BCCI also known as the cocaine bank collapsed with a loss of $ 16 billion. All that Manmohan got was a scholarship for his daughter, but his main benefit turned out to be that the congress party immediately inducted him to the party. Many details are available in our parliamentary proceedings when the collapse of the BCCI was discussed. Sonia had connections to the Vatican Bank which was active in Europe and America drug market where as BCCI specialized in the Asian drug market. Abedi's reach extended to the U.S. also. He even had the former Secretary of Defense Clark Clifford as his lobbyist for a fee of nearly $100 million. All this was exposed in U.S. Congressional hearings.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 18 Jun 2011 01:37

Finally Congress Agrees to Surrender PM in Front of Jan Lokpal

http://abclive.in/invetigative-news/pol ... gress.html

Rajmata is back in the country.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 18 Jun 2011 01:46

My 2 nia paisa...Heard it at a kavi sammelan

Once a Sardarji boarded a train from Punjab to Delhi. He got down at Delhi Railway station and proceeded to go out of the gate. The TT of course was standing at the gate, checking everybody's ticket. Sardarji saw the TT, the TT saw the Sardarji, suddenly Sardarji started running. He went to platform number 2, then jumped to 4. The TT followed after him. Some other TTs who were nearby or in the canteen also ran to give their colleague a helping hand. Few policeman ran after the TT and and the Sardar ji as well. Sardarji ran from one platform to another, finally he was caught at platform 9. The huffing and puffing TT asked where is the ticket? Sardarji promptly whisked out the ticket from upper pocket and showed him.
The policemen, other TTs, tired over all this running asked, if you had the ticket why did you run?
Sardarji said - Well the other 25 from my village did not buy the ticket (who slipped out from the unmanned gates now).

Now Betal asks Vikram - Was Sardarji wrong, was he corrupt. Vikram (Br wallahs, leave your ideology, as well as your party/state/religious affiliation) and answer this question - Was Sardarji wrong?

Thanks,
fanne

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 18 Jun 2011 01:57

fanne saheb good one.

deepan gill · Post by **deepan gill** » 18 Jun 2011 02:03

Was Sardarji wrong?

Yes the Sardar Ji was wrong. Being corrupt is not simply accepting ill-gotten wealth, but its also allowing, turning a blind eye to corrupt practices, that is wrong as well. Manmohan Singh may not have black money hidden away or not taken a bribe, but he is as much guilty as all others for allowing this. His party was voted into power by the people, and his party elected him to be the PM. Thus, he was elected by the people's mandate, he should operate above party lines.

Jan Lokpal Bill is asking for PM to be under it, technically that is un-constitutional. But why is it being demanded? Because, the system is their to protect the govt machinery, from a simple govt official to a MP to cabinet ministers etc.

The office and the chair occupied by a Prime Minister of India needs to be occupied by individuals who are in sync with the nation and its aspirations. Too bad our PMs are product of our society.