Transport Aircraft for IAF

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Jun 2011 20:34

There are two articles confirming it now, see my posted interview in Military Aviation thread.

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 16 Jun 2011 20:34

I am surprised that it was 2 as opposed to being 3 when previous reports have consistently said 3 more Phalcons. Therefore, I am waiting for further confirmation.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 16 Jun 2011 20:48

cheenum wrote:or the subsequent order of TWO Phalcons? it is too good to be true!!! hope it is not DDM, i sincerely hope not.

these links do not talk of confirmed orders but still -

this speaks of 2 additional Phalcons -

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4560 dated 2010-09-26

an older one speaks of 3 additional Phalcons -

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-3805 dated 13.4.2008

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Jun 2011 21:07

Yeah the 2 additional Phalcon one is surprising. I meant the 3 phalcons all have been delivered is now confirmed. I think the IAF is waiting for the DRDO AWACS, and may end up standardizing on local AWACS, since the next ones are planned for a phalcon style AWACS with a larger aircraft. The IAF regards the Phalcon as capable but very expensive (each equal in cost to some 8 Sukhois), so they would appreciate a cost effective local equivalent.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 16 Jun 2011 21:51

2 more C-130J Super Hercules aircrafts depart for Indian Air Force Station 'Hindan'

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 16 Jun 2011 22:08

chackojoseph wrote:2 more C-130J Super Hercules aircrafts depart for Indian Air Force Station 'Hindan'

one thing I really like about Khan is their no nonsense commitment towards timely delivery of proven platforms....

now Boeing 787 is different story ..

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Jun 2011 22:25

the no nonsense is because of FMS route.. when it comes time to market, per gov-gov agreement, they will supply from existing stock from USAF as well by replace/remove parts (cannibalize) based on the agreement/deal., and later stand by as guarantee for replacement for the committed support/warranty life.

Now, I am not sure if any of these were actually used or new?

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 17 Jun 2011 01:11

The C-130J being delivered to the IAF are suppose to be brand spanking new.

I wouldn't be surprised to find LM & Boeing reading these threads on BRF.

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 17 Jun 2011 01:12

SaiK wrote:the no nonsense is because of FMS route.. when it comes time to market, per gov-gov agreement, they will supply from existing stock from USAF as well by replace/remove parts (cannibalize) based on the agreement/deal., and later stand by as guarantee for replacement for the committed support/warranty life.

Now, I am not sure if any of these were actually used or new?

I believe these are new airframes... Livefist had posted pics of their progress through assembly line through out last year or so

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/06/ph ... 0s-in.html

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 17 Jun 2011 06:33

Click to See the Hi Resolution Images

In the Future IAF would be fielding fomations like this 13 ship fomation/air armada of C-17 Globemaster IIIs.

Thirteen C-17 Globemaster III Aircraft Fly over the Blue Ridge Mountains in Virginia during Low Level Tactical Training

Airmen from the 14th Airlift Squadron fly over South Carolina's beaches from Joint Base Charleston, S.C., as a Boeing-built C-17 Globemaster III Sheds a Shadow on the Water Below.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Jun 2011 06:55

prithvi wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:2 more C-130J Super Hercules aircrafts depart for Indian Air Force Station 'Hindan'
one thing I really like about Khan is their no nonsense commitment towards timely delivery of proven platforms....

I was totally gobsmacked at their rate of production - was it 17 a year or something for C-17? These people have figured out what "industrialization" means. More than one a month for these giant aircraft. India's order is less than one years' work.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Jun 2011 07:08

process maturity is the key

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Jun 2011 07:45

i have never seen anything like that 13ship pic. a++ for khan psyops

UBanerjee · Post by **UBanerjee** » 17 Jun 2011 07:48

^ That is pure shakinah factor at work in that photo

a flock of 13 mammoth birds

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Jun 2011 07:51

i say cancel the paper plane mta. rus would own all the design anyway and DELIVER 10 years late and 5X the initial cost

. get a license production or offset deal for c130j and let hal produce it in whole or part. khan is great at these logistical things

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Jun 2011 07:56

good idea.. see if they can establish a new found ally now.. put the khans to test to sell the technology(of course, excluding the cismoa etc) to us.

near impossible since obama is all about keeping jobs in the khan land.. but might consider SDKs.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Jun 2011 09:50

transport birds do not need the CISMOA/EULA type gear. and if any odd bits exist, there are alternatives as we took for the P8I....Boeing/LM will fit them in and ship them with a fresh coat of green paint.

maybe HAL could make the wings, tailplanes and certain fuselage sections and landing gear for C-130J and ship them off for final assembly in USA plant - as part of the offset. we could also seek other offsets like doing with the wind tunnel and hi-altitude facilities....there's a TON of such vital infra that needs putting in with an eye to future programs and transport a/c is a relatively cold potato that slips in calmly under the political radar vs the high pitched wailing and mewling like MRCA.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Jun 2011 09:55

looking at the way relations are going, I am almost 95% certain the MTA deal is a cold turkey.

time to roll out and **ACT** on plan-B after wasting 10 years - whether it C130J or Embraer - just *do* it.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 17 Jun 2011 10:34

Singha wrote:looking at the way relations are going, I am almost 95% certain the MTA deal is a cold turkey.

time to roll out and **ACT** on plan-B after wasting 10 years - whether it C130J or Embraer - just *do* it.

You and I understand this, but what about the MOD. They have seen the delays with the Nuke Boat, the Vikramaditya, the TOT issues with the T 90. The MTA was supposed to take to the air by 2008 when the original plan was drawn. However, it has not even left the drawing board.

The only way it could be persisted with woulf be if it conducted a test flight by the end of 2012, but it is nowhare closed to doing so.

I am afread that we will be forced to make a distress purchase of the 130j or the Emb 390 by 2015 in order to bolster our airlift capabilities.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 17 Jun 2011 11:27

prithvi wrote:one thing I really like about Khan is their no nonsense commitment towards timely delivery of proven platforms....
now Boeing 787 is different story ..

Boeing 787 is not a delivery issue, it is a legal issue. There is a boatload of 787s which are ready for delivery... but cannot be delivered to customers because Uncle's Baboos need to get of their Musharaff and sign some papers... Boeing stores these new 787s indoors or outdoors depending on the customers. I saw 3-4 AirIndia 787s indoors when i visited Everett plant.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 17 Jun 2011 11:29

SaiK wrote:the no nonsense is because of FMS route.. when it comes time to market, per gov-gov agreement, they will supply from existing stock from USAF as well by replace/remove parts (cannibalize) based on the agreement/deal., and later stand by as guarantee for replacement for the committed support/warranty life.

Now, I am not sure if any of these were actually used or new?

The C130Js delivered/destined for Desh are NEW AIRFRAMES... There are plenty of pics showing them being built in LM assemble line...

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 17 Jun 2011 11:35

Singha wrote:i say cancel the paper plane mta. rus would own all the design anyway and DELIVER 10 years late and 5X the initial cost . get a license production or offset deal for c130j and let hal produce it in whole or part. khan is great at these logistical things

I second that... I think Desh should license produce C130Js by the dozens...get 50% offset for the C130Js purchased and move on...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Jun 2011 11:36

http://www.domain-b.com/aero/aero_mfg/2 ... liner.html

was FAA certification of last minute fixes made after the in-flight fire in november 2010 holding up delivery ?

negi · Post by **negi** » 17 Jun 2011 11:38

C-17s and C-130Js are in production AC and ,no MKIsation and no offsets so unless there are political issues no reason why deliveries should be slow.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Jun 2011 11:45

Il76 and Akula are also supposed to be in production, with no MKIsation and no offsets

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 17 Jun 2011 12:06

Singha wrote:Il76 and Akula are also supposed to be in production, with no MKIsation and no offsets

actually C130J has many India specific stuff, though not exactly MKIsed....

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 17 Jun 2011 12:13

cheenum wrote: I second that... I think Desh should license produce C130Js by the dozens...get 50% offset for the C130Js purchased and move on...

does the 'offsets' apply in an FMS deal??

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Jun 2011 12:20

it does not, but the next deal for C130J pure cargo version can be a usual GOI-to-vendor deal where offsets will apply. numbers involved 6+6 vs potentially upto 100 are in different leagues.

negi · Post by **negi** » 17 Jun 2011 12:21

Unfortunately that precisely is/was the problem with IL-76 and it's derivatives; the whole Uzbek based facility was stand still during 90s in fact the recent Indian orders were met with help of previously completed airframes . Not sure if nuclear sub fall into the same league though , Nerpa is only second in her class; I am all for putting a 13" boot behind the bear but no one else is leasing these babies to us.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Jun 2011 12:23

the Nerpa will likely be on 'sea trials' and 'tests' until India is coerced to hand over another $500 mil.

I say let it go - let the RuN operate it.

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 17 Jun 2011 22:23

negi wrote:Unfortunately that precisely is/was the problem with IL-76 and it's derivatives; the whole Uzbek based facility was stand still during 90s in fact the recent Indian orders were met with help of previously completed airframes . Not sure if nuclear sub fall into the same league though , Nerpa is only second in her class; I am all for putting a 13" boot behind the bear but no one else is leasing these babies to us.

Russians are also helping us with Arihant... dont we see a repurcusion across all the co-operation ..if we play hardball..? Lets hire and give citizenship to all Russian brothers in Vizag with boatload of Volga and Romanov...

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 17 Jun 2011 22:26

cheenum wrote:
prithvi wrote:one thing I really like about Khan is their no nonsense commitment towards timely delivery of proven platforms....
now Boeing 787 is different story ..
Boeing 787 is not a delivery issue, it is a legal issue. There is a boatload of 787s which are ready for delivery... but cannot be delivered to customers because Uncle's Baboos need to get of their Musharaff and sign some papers... Boeing stores these new 787s indoors or outdoors depending on the customers. I saw 3-4 AirIndia 787s indoors when i visited Everett plant.

I thought it was initially a pure logistical issue of managing many sub-contractors that Boeing choose to build this airliner.. a clear departure from their regular practice.. coupled with over-weight .. in flight fire etc. resulted the delay.. believe if it was technically possible Boeing would have started delivery long back... their stock got hammered bcos of 787 delay...

there are plenty of case studies around this project..

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 17 Jun 2011 22:29

Singha wrote:the Nerpa will likely be on 'sea trials' and 'tests' until India is coerced to hand over another $500 mil.

I say let it go - let the RuN operate it.

is there a thing called.... International court of business dispute..? we are spending money like there is no tomorrow....

I will not be too surprised.. if I read some of the biggest kickback scams 5 years down the road... its like a mad rush.. loot.. having a sixth sense feeling about it...

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 17 Jun 2011 22:33

Singha wrote:it does not, but the next deal for C130J pure cargo version can be a usual GOI-to-vendor deal where offsets will apply. numbers involved 6+6 vs potentially upto 100 are in different leagues.

That can't happen can it? If it is not a FMS deal, it has be a multi-vendor competition acc. to the defence procurement (stalling) guidelines.

And imagine the pandemonium that will occur on this thread when Sanku ji hears there was a single-vendor deal done by the MoD for AmirKhan aircraft.

No no. Not again.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 Jun 2011 22:48

Let's be honest.The ATV project could not have reached this stage without the assistance of "hundreds" of Russian experts some of whom who were present in that number at her launch.Indian ambitions to operate nuclear powered subs are joined at the hip with generous Russian assistance.No other nation on the planet has helped India as Russia has.Even France,helping Brazil will deliver the first N-sub only 5+ years from now! It is sheer madness to even think of abandoning the Nerpa/Chakra and ruining the ATV programme in a fit of pique.The relentless acquisition of subs and warships by the Sino-Pak combine demands the success of the ATV and Akula sub acquisitions.

Families,couples,when faced with any crisis discuss and resolve any serious dispute calmly and carefully and do not rush into unilateral decisions that might harm oneself.Just look at what the US is doing to our security,rewarding Pak for its terror by delivering to it 7 much modified paerry class FFGs and now replacing the two destroyed P-3 Orions which can only be used againt the IN! A more patriotic and stronger govt than this spineless one would've given the US the upturned finger as far as defence acquisitions were concerned. sadly,SI Singh has mortgaged the country's security to US interests.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&q=http:/ ... pJJCWTkObw

US to replace two P3C Orion aircraft destroyed in Pakistan naval base attack
From ANI

Islamabad, June 17(ANI): The United States will supply two P3C Orion aircraft to Pakistan to replace those destroyed in the May 22 terror attack on Karachi's Mehran Naval Station, diplomatic sources have said.

According to sources, the US will also be supplying F-16 aircraft and its spare parts to Pakistan, the Dawn reports.

It is also expected that the US Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Admiral Mike Mullen will soon be visiting Pakistan to convey US President Barrack Obama's message, sources added.

Official sources had earlier said that the destruction of the two four-engine all-weather P3C Orion aircraft would temporarily affect the Pakistan Navy's counter-terrorism operations and also surface and underwater reconnaissance operations.

Opinion writer and novelist David Ignatius also wrote in The Washington Post that the US will keep supplying F-16s and may replace two P-3 Orion surveillance planes destroyed in the PNS Mehran attack.

The P3C Orion aircraft, which is designed for surface and underwater reconnaissance and anti-submarine and anti-surface vessel operations, is rated as the fastest turbo-prop long-range maritime patrol (LRMP) platform used worldwide, and is also called the airborne destroyer.

PS:Want to buy more US transport aircraft anyone?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 17 Jun 2011 22:49

Around 60-80 odd C-130 Herc in IAF service will do great load of good for the airlift capability......them are real versatile aircraft.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 17 Jun 2011 22:55

Philip wrote: <SNIP> PS:Want to buy more US transport aircraft anyone?

Let us not go down this route.

I would any day opt for 20 odd C-17 in IAF colors + 20 P-8I + 60 C-130 and don't mind pukes getting 2-3 orions or some other sh*t.

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 17 Jun 2011 22:58

Philip wrote:Let's be honest.The ATV project could not have reached this stage without the assistance of "hundreds" of Russian experts some of whom who were present in that number at her launch.Indian ambitions to operate nuclear powered subs are joined at the hip with generous Russian assistance.No other nation on the planet has helped India as Russia has.Even France,helping Brazil will deliver the first N-sub only 5+ years from now! It is sheer madness to even think of abandoning the Nerpa/Chakra and ruining the ATV programme in a fit of pique.The relentless acquisition of subs and warships by the Sino-Pak combine demands the success of the ATV and Akula sub acquisitions.

Families,couples,when faced with any crisis discuss and resolve any serious dispute calmly and carefully and do not rush into unilateral decisions that might harm oneself.Just look at what the US is doing to our security,rewarding Pak for its terror by delivering to it 7 much modified paerry class FFGs and now replacing the two destroyed P-3 Orions which can only be used againt the IN! A more patriotic and stronger govt than this spineless one would've given the US the upturned finger as far as defence acquisitions were concerned. sadly,SI Singh has mortgaged the country's security to US interests.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&q=http:/ ... pJJCWTkObw

US to replace two P3C Orion aircraft destroyed in Pakistan naval base attack
From ANI

Islamabad, June 17(ANI): The United States will supply two P3C Orion aircraft to Pakistan to replace those destroyed in the May 22 terror attack on Karachi's Mehran Naval Station, diplomatic sources have said.

According to sources, the US will also be supplying F-16 aircraft and its spare parts to Pakistan, the Dawn reports.

It is also expected that the US Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Admiral Mike Mullen will soon be visiting Pakistan to convey US President Barrack Obama's message, sources added.

Official sources had earlier said that the destruction of the two four-engine all-weather P3C Orion aircraft would temporarily affect the Pakistan Navy's counter-terrorism operations and also surface and underwater reconnaissance operations.

Opinion writer and novelist David Ignatius also wrote in The Washington Post that the US will keep supplying F-16s and may replace two P-3 Orion surveillance planes destroyed in the PNS Mehran attack.

The P3C Orion aircraft, which is designed for surface and underwater reconnaissance and anti-submarine and anti-surface vessel operations, is rated as the fastest turbo-prop long-range maritime patrol (LRMP) platform used worldwide, and is also called the airborne destroyer.

PS:Want to buy more US transport aircraft anyone?

major part of India's new found wealth is from service based export (IT-BPO) in US ... which is enabling us to spend billions.....what do you think US is ..a money plant which needs no watering..?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 17 Jun 2011 22:59

Families,couples,when faced with any crisis discuss and resolve any serious dispute calmly and carefully

HA HA - obviously you never seen family and divorce courts in action.

negi · Post by **negi** » 17 Jun 2011 23:11

Rohit I would beg to disagree ; P3C orions should not be rubbished (if at all there is truth in the story) afterall they are not meant to fight against the Talipaan in arabian sea. Having said that I agree with your point in general. Btw Philip saaab does get a bit enthusiastic with all things Russian.

We need to play hardball with Russia if that is what they are asking for; having said that in general all deals with Russia are going to take time (if L&M and Boeing are benchmarks) reason being it is a state-state deal (Rosonboronexport et al) everyone knows how gobermunds go about doing business.