The downside of imported arms

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shiv
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The downside of imported arms

Post by shiv »

Initially I wanted to start a thread called "Imported arms: horror stories", but I decided that it would be too harsh. After all we have depended on imports for decades and those imports have actually helped tilt the balance in several conflicts.

But the idea is to look back 60 years and ask if everything that was locally made was bad and whether we have ended up being totally happy with what we imported. Clearly we have not been totally happy with imported stuff.

My idea is to list the areas where we got into trouble by importing stuff by citing information from open and publicly available sources. By collecting stories in one thread we may be able to detect a pattern that show where and why we have imported stuff and how we have got into trouble.

I am certain that this topic will be able to point out instances where India has been caught by a pincer like situation where we have to import to survive but the imports are not the best available, but the best we could get under the circumstances and there was not a lot we could do about the drawbacks. On the other hand we might also be able to pinpoint times when India has been phenomenally stupid and not persisted or funded indigenous development in favor of imports.

Corruption and bribery probably do have some role in past deals where import has been done in favor of one country over and above other alternatives. Apart from the Bofors deal and deals that have mysteriously been pushed in India, Pakistani authors are on record stating that kickbacks are part and parcel of arms deals in Pakistan. Britain too accepted that Saudis who received kickbacks need to be protected. Clearly arms exporting nations have a system that is geared up to find out who makes decisions in importing countries and a system to ensure that they get paid secretly. Why on earth would one India write an article that says "One Former COAS who does not wish to be names says he would choose Rafale". Daal mein kucch kala is the expression that comes to mind - but that is OT.

Finally I would like to make a philosophical point about technology and arms. Every nation, every group of people value their nation so much that they put a very large emphasis on defence. That means that the best they can get in terms of technology is put into defence first and foremost. India will not be in among the front runners for decades. But unless we do it in house we will never get there.

Over the next few days and weeks I will post what I know of how imports that seemed good came back and bit us in the ass. It might be a god idea to ask if we had any choice at the time of import and if not, what lessons we have learned and what we have done to stop that from happening again.

Let me kick off with a cross post about the HF-24. 20/20 hindsight for a blinkered people

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/169 ... -left.html
“the Marut was the only aircraft which flew supersonic without an afterburner, an aspect which “our planners never gave importance to. Besi­­d­es, the defence esta­­blishment “never thought that this was a great tactical advantage.
<snip>
The IAF was “happy because nobody wanted an indigenous programme” even though the Marut could do 640 knots, fly low level with four tanks” (comparable to the American F-22).
SaiK
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Re: The downside of imported arms

Post by SaiK »

Spares & Service, & Operational costs of imports is higher than home grown ones.
High dependency with the foreign supplier and too many political hurdles to cross, yielding to some kind of poodling or yes sir, and other CYA stuff that needs to be done for getting the equipment and materials in top shape.
Dependency issue would the highest order weakness in imported arms
Legal issues and litigation are normally in the seller country jurisdictions.
For all upgrades, again legal restrictions that we have to continue depend on the seller.
Higher cost of equipment, comes default with imports.
Yes.. middlemen and agents, leads to high corruption, and thus draining tax payer money to criminals.
Imported reliance, and poor performance of say tank or aircraft, we get to live with those rather have nobody to complain against [for example IAF can say LCA is a 3 legged cheetah or IA can say Arjun is crap, we still loving accept and correct them]..the same can't be done on imports.

To avoid all these, there is lot investment needs to happen, from policy (DPP) to funding for local infrastructure., and production facility, and advanced CNC machines, and precision engineering setup.

I vote for india-genization!
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Re: The downside of imported arms

Post by Atish »

X-Posting from my Facebook Note

Shouldn't a country of 1.2 Billion people have an armaments industry of substantial size and technology that they do not have to depend on foreign suppliers for its security interests, foreign policy and yes, dignity? Is it reasonable to have less faith in domestic private parties than foreign governments and companies? If yes, why have a bloody country at all, if its private citizens are so lacking in public spirit?


I saw a great informative program on this about a year ago on NDTV program "Money Mantra". will go through archives and post link soon when I can.

Cheers.

Atish.
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Re: The downside of imported arms

Post by Shrinivasan »

We should address negatives issues of domestic Arms like
1) Spares
2) Undue dependance on foreign suppliers
3) Sanctions
4) Undue delays and arm twisting by nations/lobbies/mafia
5) National Pride
6) Conserving Forex for items which we CANNOT develop/manufacture in India

WE should address positives issues of domestic Arms like
1) Spares
2) Developing
3) Incremental development and MLUs
4) developing a domestic Mil-Ind Complex
5) National Pride
6) Leverage offsets
7) Possible export options
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Re: The downside of imported arms

Post by shiv »

Let me start with the MiG 21. Why did we buy it and how well have we done with it? Could we have done something different?

The IAF was the first Asian Air Force to induct jets with the Vampire, but because of the whore-client relationship of Pakistan with the US, Pakistan received a gift of F-104 Starfighters to get a supersonic fighter before India did. Krishna Menon and the cold war were factors in the selection of the MiG 21. After all - the MiG 21 was selected in 1962 - the very year when US aircraft were right here in India at Nehru's behest as a back up in case the India china war escalated.

In 1962 the "World's best fighter" was the F-4 Phantom II. Apart from that we had the HF-24 under development. It had already flown in 1961 (fifty years ago today). But we chose the MiG 21 a tube with wings and two missiles. The MiG 21 played no role in the 1965 war when Pakistanis scored points by destroying a couple on the ground (and claimed they destroyed a whole squadron). But in 1971 the MiG 21 acquitted itself reasonably well. But so did the HF-24, the Su-7, The Gnat and the Hawker Hunter. Clearly it was the pilots as much as the aircraft.

The MiG 21 has been in India for nearly 50 years. Are we, after 50 years manufacturing every single nut, bolt, washer and blade of the MiG 21? No. We are not. And over the years the MiG 21 has suffered from various problems because of the fact that it was a Soviet fighter optimised for intercepting high flying US nuclear bombers rather than an air superiority fighter with a secondary strike role.

To start with it had no guns. Guns had to be added as a pod under the fuselage. It had an extremely short endurance. It had virtually no strike capability. But we got it and made the best of it - prodding and paying the Russians for progressive improvements while still suffering from issues like the time the Russians did not supply brake-pads - grounding the whole fleet, and later issues like spares that had to be sourced from anywhere as the USSR folded up.

In the meantime our HF 24 was struggling with no engine despite a great design. By 1977 we gave up on the HF 24 and ordered the Jaguar. The ironic fact that makes me sad is that I recall conversations with my late cousin Suresh who used to tell me how the HF 24 would slow down in a turn. I just internalised that fact - but it was not until the 21st century that i found out that the Jaguar we ordered after burying the HF 24 was also flippin heck underpowered. That makes me sad and angry.

So we had an air force that was equipped with an imported supersonic MiG 21 that could carry next to nothing and not fly very far and a Jaguar that could fly into Pakistan well at low level, but was useless in the mountains and has an nav-attack system that was useless until Indians did our Darin upgrade. And in between we did on the spot purchases of dubious stuff for which we break our hearts for upgrades.

The MiG 29 - a super agile aircraft. But watch this video. The former German air force chief says how the MiG 29 was the costliest aircraft over its lifetime. And then the knee jerk Mirage 2000. A great aircraft no doubt - but we are struggling for upgrades.

We are neither here nor there. We have not invested in developing our own skill base - rejecting it rather than encouraging it. We have selected aircraft that are costly and require much improvement to remain relevant. And we have filled gaps with good stuff that is neither here nor there. What the fuch are we doing as a nation? Do we have no aim? No propose? No ability to look back and then plan ahead?
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Re: The downside of imported arms

Post by Austin »

shiv wrote:The MiG 29 - a super agile aircraft. But watch this video. The former German air force chief says how the MiG 29 was the costliest aircraft over its lifetime. And then the knee jerk Mirage 2000. A great aircraft no doubt - but we are struggling for upgrades.
From what I have read the decision to buy Mig-29 was a hasty decision , the M2K decision was a well thought off one albeit an expensive fighter for its time but there was nothing better that would match F-16 then and Mig-29 existed as some ram-L for NATO in secret SU airbase.

The deal was to buy 40 M2K with lic production of 140 odd fighter in India which if we had pursued there would not have been a need to go for MMRCA for some unknown reason it was not pursued and Soviet chipped in with Mig-29 with lic production for the latter in similar number ( perhaps the M2K deal got scuttled under SU pressure ) ofcourse soon came the 90 india went bankrupt and SU collapsed and rest is history.
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Re: The downside of imported arms

Post by Austin »

The key downside of import is it throttles innovation in Indian Industry becuase the best they can do after importing and lic producing stuff is copy or make an improvised copy version of the original , hence most of the product that gets developed by industry and R&D lacks innovation , they either ape the west or simply improvise what we have from east and west.

Innovation is the key to sustain industry that can develop competitive product at low cost specially if the MIC is a small by global standards , a good example is Israel that have niche products and can innovate and considering its exports are 3 or 4th largest in the world its also a great revenue earner for the country.
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Re: The downside of imported arms

Post by merlin »

Unless the services are fully behind building an indigenous military arms industry nothing is going to happen. Nothing they have done so far indicates to me that they even have a clue.
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Re: The downside of imported arms

Post by Austin »

Its a two way street , the services should support and the R&D and Industry should be able to develop , if they take their own sweet time to develop and what they develop contains more then 50 % imported content then its defeats the purpose of indiginisation.

If services wants to keep itself on cutting edge and the obvious option for most is import then we simply end up lic producing it. There is change needed from both sides.
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Re: The downside of imported arms

Post by vic »

One of the biggest problem is low funding of indigenous R&D. Our wine, cigarrette and choclates manufacturers get protection from imports through custom duty as ostensibly these industries are important for India but what about protecting and nuturing arms industry?
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Re: The downside of imported arms

Post by SaiK »

Controlled foreign substance can actually be beneficial if it actually helps gives a healthy competition for our drdo, in the sense, our labs must overcome the hurdle of being the best and beat imports on par or even better. The case is Arjun. Now, without import pressure, we need to think hard if our labs would have done better? may be, or may be not or be equal.

I think there are some benefits, but that would only come if the real client is very judicious and chankian in the sense to extract the best out of our labs.. I am thinking all these negatives of imports will only makes grow stronger in the future.. so, it may be considered as a constructive competition in a level playing sense, leaving politics and others aside.

If one brings the politics, then all these thoughts can be thrown to trash.
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Re: The downside of imported arms

Post by shiv »

vic wrote:One of the biggest problem is low funding of indigenous R&D. Our wine, cigarrette and choclates manufacturers get protection from imports through custom duty as ostensibly these industries are important for India but what about protecting and nuturing arms industry?
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... arut1.html
Hindustan Aircraft, in 1956, possessed only three senior Indian design engineers and the entire design department boasted only 54 personnel. The prototype shop had 60 people on staff and the entire strength of the production engineering department amounted to just 13. Worse yet, no hangar space was available for the construction of prototypes, no machine shop existed for prototype engineering, and there were no test equipment, structural test rigs or a flight test laboratory.

In fact, the Hindustan Aircraft complex lacked even a suitable runway from which the new aircraft could begin flight testing.
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Re: The downside of imported arms

Post by Pratyush »

^^^

Yet the first prototype was in the air by 61. The whole design was a an example of the IAF having faith in the Indian solution. The shame is that it was not persisted in. The blunder was not sanctioning the miniscule amount required to develop the higher thrust engine. If that engine was developed. The story of the IAF combat arm may have been different.

Today we have the Tejas, but it is not much different from the Marut, as it lacks a domestic engine. Nor is there a commitment from the IAf that it will be acquired in numbers beyond 220 Airframes.

The same story is repeated for the ALH / LCH. They have a great engine, but from the recent news report it is unsuitable for the LOH. ( The news report makes no sense as the HAL had upgraded the Chetak/ Cheeta with the Shakti engine in the past. )

We are seeing the repeat of this story with the Arjun, the domestic 155 MM may not get a better treatment as well. The Navy is asking for a new design for the P 75I, instead of ordering additional boats as all the hard work has been done by the MDL for the Scorpean project and work on a domestic boat to enter service by 2025.
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Re: The downside of imported arms

Post by SaiK »

so, essentially we are not learning from past mistakes.
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Re: The downside of imported arms

Post by chackojoseph »

We imported as we couldn't make them. Then, it became a habit. Services, PSU's took it easy as they were dealing with matured designs and productionlines.
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Re: The downside of imported arms

Post by shiv »

For a while I am going to concentrate on the IAF and its import requirements because that is what I am most well informed about in a general way.

One way to look at Indian imports of combat aircraft is to lok at our environment and the jackasses who live nearby. Between 1956 and 1958 Pakistan acquired over 100 F-86 Sabres and 20 B-57 bombers. In 1960 they got 12 F-104 Starfighters.

It's not as if India was doing nothing. I have no idea about the reasons for the selection of Vamires, Ouragans and Mysters but by 1954 India had ordered the Hunter. Wiki tells me that the Hunter was designed after the Gnat. I am not sure what led India to choose the Gnat, but we got Gnats in 1958. Perhaps we needed a counter to the Sabres - I need to put in some research into military planning in India in the 1950s.

Talk about Murphy's law. Britain had no use for the Gnat. India chose an uproven oddball small fighter for its air defence force. Perhaps this once agin proves the superb judgement of our pilots as opposed to the clinkered thinking or non thinking regarding our strategic planning - but that damn unproven Gnat ended up being a big success against the Pacquis and their much vaunted Sabres.

But the Gnat was otherwise a disaster. Everything was tightly packed in. Its controls were unreliable and its safety record was the worst India has ever had. Worse than MiG 23 and worse than the poor MiG 21 that acquired a bad reputation. The Gnat had some odd features including an ability to take off and climb to altitude very quickly. There is a story of a Gnat pilot giving Hunters a ten minute lead to take off while he had a cup of tea, after which he took off and greeted the Hunters at 20,000 feet or some such height. But the Gnat needed a lot of "improvement" Its armament was guns only and its endurance was short and the 2 wing pylons were needed for drop tanks. But it was small and stealthy. There was good with the bad. After the 1971 war the Gnat was "improved" and and the Ajeet was created by HAL with wet wings, new ejection seat two extra pylons and some other stuff. But it went out of service in 1991. Just 16 odd years in service (for Ajeet) - a short time for an aircraft when you compare with MiG 21 (49 years so far) , Hunter (47 years) and Canberra.

Isnt it odd that a good fighter like the Gnat was thrown out soon after it was improved in India. Anyhow it lasted longer than the all Indian HF-24 that was thrown out in less than 15 years. But both the Gnat and HF-24 had good points and bad points. So did the MiG 21 for that matter. Why did the MiG 21 stay on while anything touched at home in India was thrown out? Is there some unstated thing here - a tendency to be contemptuous of Indian made/modified stuff. Or is there some other geopolitical factor - i will try and say something about that in a separate post.

But heck even imported maal can be bad. The MiG 21 was a fairly useless aircraft when it came. It has stayed. The Gnat stayed despite all its bad points and was thrown out after HAL actually improved it. The HF 24 was thrown out very soon and replaced with the Jaguar that was underpowered. The Jag stays and will be re engined for an amount that I would like to compare with the original costs. Talk about life cycle costs.

Exactly what goes on in the minds of our planners? Is there any long term plan at all? if there is someone please educate me about it?
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Re: The downside of imported arms

Post by shiv »

OK maybe I am being unfair. Let me look at the pressures that India faced when it made aircraft purchases/deals.

Late 1950s - Pakistan air force doubled or trebled in size due to US gifts. India inducts Gnat.

1960 PAF gets F-104 Starfighter. 1962 India gets MiG 21

Wars in 1965 and 1971 waste the PAF. India goes onto somnolence.

1974 nuke test - sanctions on India. DPSA deal drags on till 1979 when we get Jaguar. Pakistan specific. India on the ascendant.

1981 - Paki gets F-16. Dhoti shivering time MiG 23 ordered urgently, then Mirage 2000 then MiG 29. All in reaction to F-16.

The other thought that occurs to me is "What is the difference between license manufacture and copying/cloning like the Chinese?"

License manufacture is copying with permission. Otherwise it is copying without permission. Copying with permission make you dependent because you sign and honor agreements and the other guy can screw you. Plain copying means there are "sanctions" from day 1. You have to build up your industry to bypass them.

India has always opened its chaddi for other people to put their fingers in Indian backside and wiggle them every time India is deemed to have "misbehaved". Unles we understand this we will keep on allowing that. We have to start and persist with in house programs.
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Re: The downside of imported arms

Post by Pratyush »

shiv wrote:OK maybe I am being unfair. Let me look at the pressures that India faced when it made aircraft purchases/deals.

SNIP..........
India has always opened its chaddi for other people to put their fingers in Indian backside and wiggle them every time India is deemed to have "misbehaved". Unles we understand this we will keep on allowing that. We have to start and persist with in house programs.
What if the Indian non independence in terms of weapons is a result of direct sabotage like it is with the 155MM. That we keep on rejecting the the domestic planned weapon systems / air crafts like the ones proposed by the HAL after the completion of the HF 24. Yet no one in the IAF showed the willingness to go for them. Not even as TD platforms.

Was it only a result of a lack of vision or a result of deliberate action.
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Re: The downside of imported arms

Post by shiv »

Pratyush wrote: What if the Indian non independence in terms of weapons is a result of direct sabotage like it is with the 155MM. That we keep on rejecting the the domestic planned weapon systems / air crafts like the ones proposed by the HAL after the completion of the HF 24. Yet no one in the IAF showed the willingness to go for them. Not even as TD platforms.

Was it only a result of a lack of vision or a result of deliberate action.
Maybe even Russia has applied pressure in ways that India could not retaliate. We may have been stuck between the pincer of US arms to Pakistan and Russia and pressure not to look for domestic or non Russian substitutes.
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Re: The downside of imported arms

Post by NRao »

A goal, without a plan, is only a wish.
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Re: The downside of imported arms

Post by UBanerjee »

It is always in the arms suppliers interest to keep the suppliee dependent and "hooked".

But if you are forceful and take the supplies and use them for your own, supposedly you will be cut off and disaster will strike. But in reality? They will make these threatening noises but often be forced to keep supplying you to prop up their industries. Although certain ones like the US do have the luxury of cutting you off if you flout their litany of rules, many more desperate arms suppliers do not have that luxury. Witness China as that is exactly what they've done by hook or by crook.
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Re: The downside of imported arms

Post by Victor »

As stated, our problem is engines. In the 50s and 60s, GTRE was considered to be close to "state of the art" in jet engine development but we somehow let that slip. We should have made sure we had at least top-class trainer engines--both turboprop and jet--before dumping all our resources in trying to make a next gen fighter engine. Net result: we don't have even a rudimentary engine for a trainer, let alone a fighter. "Cutting edge" is a process, not a state of technology, and it is a moving target. It implies building up streams of technologies and competencies, one on top of another. For this we need an aeronautical infrastructure and to put its products to actual, everyday use, realizing that they will be less than top-class in the beginning.

The Chinese did just this and while we snickered as they made their copy-cat junk, we now have a fully 4th-gen-capable China to deal with urgently and we are forced to import a qualitative edge with the Trina & Tiffy Show. As before, it is unlikely that we are considering whether these new imports can do anything to enhance or upgrade our existing aeronautical infrastructure. Quite the contrary if one looks at reality--Italy has one foot in bankruptcy and the other on a banana peel while Germany and France are on the hook to save it along with Ireland, Greece, Portugal & Spain or face catastrophe in Europe. UQ is an American colony for all practical purposes.

The HJT-16 Kiran intermediate trainer has been a huge Indian success, serving us excellently for 40 years and it should trouble us that we could not or did not build on that experience. Its so-called replacement--the HJT-32 Sitara--went from the drawing board to test flight in a record 6 years (2003) but is nowhere near production almost a decade later.

To realize the extent and absurdity of the rot that has set in, we need go no further than the fact that we are now importing even a primary trainer for the IAF.
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Re: The downside of imported arms

Post by Sushants »

HINDUSTAN FIGHTER HF-24 MARUT

PART I: BUILDING INDIA'S JET FIGHTER

BY K CHATTERJEE

Conceiving the Marut

The pursuit of self-reliance in aviation, led the Air Staff, to issue a requirement for a home-made multi-role fighter aircraft during the mid-1950s. The building of HF-24, or Marut (Spirit of the Tempest), as this aircraft was to be called, was the first attempt of its kind anywhere outside the major powers. At the time of the Marut's conception, the domestic aviation industry's only design experience amounted to the HT-2, a prop trainer. Whatever aircraft manufacturing capability existed resulted from the license production of the Vampire FB Mk.52s and T Mk.55s. To have considered building a Mach 2.0 capable aircraft, given such limited capabilities bordered on audacity.

The Marut was conceived to meet an Air Staff Requirement (ASR), that called for a multi-role aircraft suitable for both high-altitude interception and low-level ground attack. The specified performance attributes called for a speed of Mach 2.0 at altitude, a ceiling of 60,000 feet (18,290 m) and a combat radius of 500 miles (805 km). Furthermore, the ASR demanded that the basic design be suitable for adaptation as an advanced trainer, an all-weather fighter and for 'navalization' as a shipboard aircraft. It was directed that this aircraft be developed within the country. As an aside, it might be worth noting that the design philosophy and ASR for the current Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) is quite similar.

The task of meeting the ASR was assigned to Hindustan Aircraft Limited (now HAL Bangalore). However, in 1955 no infrastructure capable of supporting the programme existed in India. And there was scant appreciation on the part of the government of the technological hurdles that would need to be surmounted. In response to an Indian invitation, Kurt Tank (of Focke-Wolf fame) and his assistant Engineer Mittelhuber, arrived in Bangalore in August 1956. As head of the design team it was Kurt Tank who would give the ASR shape and substance.



The first prototype Marut aircraft. When it was rolled out it carried the Identifying number HF-001 (As seen in top photo). By the time of its first flight it took up the assigned serial BR-462

Hindustan Aircraft, in 1956, possessed only three senior Indian design engineers and the entire design department boasted only 54 personnel. The prototype shop had 60 people on staff and the entire strength of the production engineering department amounted to just 13. Worse yet, no hangar space was available for the construction of prototypes, no machine shop existed for prototype engineering, and there were no test equipment, structural test rigs or a flight test laboratory.

In fact, the Hindustan Aircraft complex lacked even a suitable runway from which the new aircraft could begin flight testing. The entire infrastructure had to be built from scratch. Much effort was invested in building up a viable design and testing infrastructure. And by the time the first prototype of the Marut commenced its flight test programme in 1961, Hindustan Aircraft employed 18 German design engineers, a design department possessing 150 personnel, a prototype shop with 631 personnel including 39 supervisors, and a production engineering department with more than 100 personnel.

Building the Marut

Work on designing the new "Hindustan (Indian) Fighter" commenced in June 1957 and the aircraft was awarded the HF-24 designation. A full scale representation (wooden glider) of the projected fighter was ready by early 1959, less than a year after the last mock-up conference on 10 April 1958. A test program was initiated with this glider on 1 April 1959 by Wg. Cdr. Suri and Wg. Cdr. (later Gp. Cpt. retd.) Kapil Bhargava. The two-seat glider was towed by a C-47 Dakota and usually released at altitudes of between 12,000 and 15,000 feet (3660 and 4570 m). By the end of this phase of the programme on 24 March 1960, the glider had completed 78 flights. Assembly of the first HF-24 prototype (HF-001) began in April 1960, and eleven months later, on 11 March 1961, powered taxiing trials were initiated.


BD-845 was the second production HF-24 which joined the No.10 Squadron in 1967.
The flight development team was headed by Wg. Cdr. Das who in turn was assisted by Sqn. Ldr. I.M. Chopra, largely responsible for stability trials, Sqn. Ldr. W.M. Tilak for armament and instrumentation development, and Sqn. Ldr. Dey whose concern was primarily with power plant development.

Search for a Suitable Engine

The design of the HF-24 had been based around the availability of the 8170 lbs. (3705 kg) afterburning Orpheus BOr 12 engine. Unfortunately, the British requirement for this powerplant was discarded and the Indian Govt. declined to underwrite its continued development. In retrospect, this was a very shortsighted decision on the part of the Indian Government. The manufacturer had asked for £13 million as development costs, not a large sum even by the standards of the 1960s. And the Government's decision not to underwrite the costs of the BOr 12 development was to haunt the Marut programme for ever. In the even that the BOr 12 was no longer an option, the design team was forced to adopt the non-afterburning 4850 lbs. (2200 kg) Orpheus 703 for the initial and interim version of the fighter. India now initiated what was to prove a lengthy and frustrating search for an alternative power plant to the Orpheus BOr 12.

In 1961 the MoD approached the Soviet Government with a view to the acquiring the Tumansky RD-9F, a small-diameter axial-flow afterburning engine used in the MiG-19SF fighter. Six RD-9Fs were imported late in 1961 and bench-tested at Bangalore. Discussions were held in Moscow during July 1962 over licence manufacture of this turbojet for the HF-24. In the end this came to nothing. The RD-9F was finally rejected in 1963 on the grounds that it was prone to surging. Furthermore, its overhaul life was unacceptably short and there seemed little likelihood of its compressor being developed beyond its Mach 1.4 stress limit, and negotiations with the Soviet Union were accordingly discontinued.

Rather than shelve the entire Marut programme, the Indian Government decided to order 18 pre-production aircraft powered by the Orpheus 703 in late 1962. The pre-production batch was followed by 62 similarly powered production examples, despite the lAF's initial reluctance. The IAF's reluctance stemmed from the fact that Orpheus 703 powered Marut offered only marginal improvement on the Hunter's performance. And the air force's reluctance contributed to the aircraft's protracted delivery schedules.


The Indian Government eventually became disenchanted with the entire programme and on 1 July 1969, the Indian test team was recalled from Egypt. The test aircraft, however, was presented to the Egyptian Govt. Meanwhile Bristol Siddeley proposed in 1964 to marry the high-pressure inner spool of the Pegasus to the Indian-manufactured Orpheus 703, thereby theoretically offering a performance similar to that anticipated from the abandoned Orpheus BOr 12. But the Indian Govt. was again reluctant to underwrite development costs.( money games) The issue was also somewhat confused by Indian hopes that the US government would provide support for the HF-24 programme.(more games) In 1964 U.S. technological aid was formally requested to help with the development of a suitable power-plant for what was to be the HF-24 Mk 2. In the event, the possibility of US aid was delayed by Indian negotiations with the Soviet Union for a MiG-21 manufacturing licence and was finally abandoned as a result of the Indo-Pakistan conflict in September 1965.

Marut joins the IAF

The first pre-production HF-24 Mk1 (BD-828) made its initial flight in April 1963 and was joined by BD-829 and BD-830 within the year. Two of the pre-production Maruts were handed over to the IAF at a ceremony on 10 May 1964 at Bangalore and taken over by the IAF's Aircraft & Armament Testing Unit (AATU). Joined by more pre-production Maruts, these aircraft underwent service and weapon system trials (the latter at the Armament Firing Wing at Jamnagar) for nearly three years before being suitably updated.




The armament comprised 4 powerful 30mm Aden Mk.2 cannon with 130 rds/gun and an internally-housed MATRA Type 103 rocket launcher modified to accommodate 50 68-mm unguided rockets in 10 rows of five rockets each. The aircraft had four underwing hardpoints each stressed to carry 1000 lbs. (454-kg) bombs, napalm canisters, Type 116 SNEB rocket launchers, clusters of T10 air-to-ground rockets, or 100 Imp Gal (454 L) drop tanks. When production ceased, the Marut had around 80% indigenous content and all components were being manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics.


The Marut was a robust aircraft with extremely good visibility for the pilot, and was aerodynamically one of the cleanest fighters of its time. With a very stable platform, the aircraft required no artificial augmentation or auto-stabilization. The Marut was originally to have been stressed to 10.5g but 8g was eventually considered to be adequate for the production model. The controls were provided with artificial feel and were effective over the entire speed range, the top limit being 620 knots (1149 km/in) IAS at sea level.





Continued Development


The search for a suitable engine continued even after the Maruts went full ops.......

If we recall the development cycle LCA in place of Marut, the story is very similar.
Govt. was not able to negotiate an engine development contract for kaveri engine on time, and also like Marut , LCA's development was also delayed because of US sanctions
Austin wrote:
From what I have read the decision to buy Mig-29 was a hasty decision , the M2K decision was a well thought off one albeit an expensive fighter for its time but there was nothing better that would match F-16 then and Mig-29 existed as some ram-L for NATO in secret SU airbase.

The deal was to buy 40 M2K with lic production of 140 odd fighter in India which if we had pursued there would not have been a need to go for MMRCA for some unknown reason it was not pursued and Soviet chipped in with Mig-29 with lic production for the latter in similar number ( perhaps the M2K deal got scuttled under SU pressure ) ofcourse soon came the 90 india went bankrupt and SU collapsed and rest is history.
The reason was simple that they wanted to buy more aircrafts not to develop indigenous capabilities,for some unknown reasons that haunt arms dealers and politicians..
Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.-George Santayana
Such things will happen again and agin when profit making becomes more attractive than National security, and stable minded people are not directing the project inplace of corrupt politicians and stone headed beaurocrats.
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Re: The downside of imported arms

Post by Suresh S »

You make many good points shiv. To me china will become an existential threat to India in a few decades . let me explain. In the next few yrs with all the arms we are importing we would be in a reasonably good position vis a vis china, even though I feel next 3-5 yrs are critical because of many weapon systems being still on order and in the process of being delivered or being negotiated.

But once China progresses to a level where it can produce close to the best in the world in terms of defense equipment say 20-30 yrs timeframe which is definitely a distinct possibility given their intelligence and size of their economy. At that point in time if India continues to delay and dither importing away to glory and paying lip service to true indigenous production we would be left in a position where we will go bankrupt trying to match the chinese in quality and quantity of defense equipment and trying to import but not able to match them in quantity. A good example is what happened to USSR even though a different system and different scenario but you get the point.

chinese leaders are planning for the next several decades while our leaders seems to be just reacting to events with no long term planning and this can in the end have only one outcome.

Right now inspite of lot of dhoti shiver china does not have an edge over india qualitatively but things are changing fast. Right now even though china,s economy is far ahead of us in size but we can still catch them if we plan well.

To me there is only one solution to this doomsday scenario we MUST start making defense equipment on our own if we are to survive as a country otherwise if you look 50 yrs from now with the same policies we will be destroyed once again and this is not fear mongering . If you look at India,s history of close to thousand year of partial or total occupation not a unlikely scenario.Himalayas did not stop the invaders in the past and with the advantages of modern technologies it is unlikely to stop them now.
Last edited by Suresh S on 19 Jun 2011 06:56, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The downside of imported arms

Post by Philip »

The problem lies "not in our stars,but in our hearts..."! Frankly,there hs been no holistic approach to India's defence right from Independence.Nehru thought that moral force would suffice until Mao shoved his bayonet up Chacha's nether end! He had a stroke and faded away.Krshna Menon much maligned did a lot of work to get our indigenous industry started.Gnats,Vijyantas,MIG-21s,etc.At that time,only Russia was willing to help us and the MIG-21 was their best product.Whatever it shortfalls we acquired it in large numbers at cheap cost to offset Pak's qualitative advantage.Now as to it capabilities,what about the excellent performance of MIG-21 Bison againt US arcraft in COPE exercises?

Th abandoning of the HF-24,HF-73 projects was a detrimental step.With no private industry to compete with the state giants,we have suffered.There must be competition internally ne externally.The "holy Grail" of indigenisation must also not cripple the services who need weapons at the ready to fight at short notice.Kargil for one.The rapid pace of technology too outpaces indigenous efforts as well.The best current programmes are those JVs like B'Mos,SU-30MKIs.Indigenous efforts that have turned the corner are Arjun and Akash.

The IN however has the best track record of all and is the service helped the least! had we not stopped sub building in the '80s,we would've been far ahead of all Asian navies.We now lag behind Pak in AIP subs.The resistance to privatising part of Indian military manufacture has come from the DRDO/Babudom,who want the inefficiency and unaccountability to continue forever.Until this nexus is broken,Indian indigenous efforts will flounder.The recent decision to allow Pipav port to manufacture warships,etc., is very welcome.Indian giants like L&T are already supplying the armed forces with a lot of eqpt.They should be further encouraged.There is enough of the giant Indian defence cake to be shared not only locally,but also with foreign suppliers in JVs and deals that support and improve our indigenous efforts.

PS:Another problem is the reluctance of the services for a CDS.Now the Army is trying to acquire a large fleet of attack helos and aircraft for its needs as the IAF supposedly frowns at ground support,labellin it as a secondary priority.The IN is also supposedly fuming,if media reports are accurate, at losing the A&N command.Each branch is acquiring UAVs,AEW aircraft,helos,SR SAMs,etc.,independetly,often choosing different systems instead of standardisation which woud bring down costs.The DM must crack heads and exert pressure against renegade attitude.The services must work cohesively.We have to start planning for and operating theatre commands if we are to meet the international challenges for which we are acquiring C-17s,et.,etc.Each service cannot "plow its lonely furrow".Such an attitude will destroy any attempt at indigenous success.
Last edited by Philip on 19 Jun 2011 08:15, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The downside of imported arms

Post by shiv »

Philip you are dead right is saying tht private industry has to join. It is actually an indicato of India's industrial backwardness that private industry was unable to join in military supply business. Hoefully that will change.

As far as aerospace is concerned Mahindra's venture into aero space and Tatas and a possibly reliance entry are welcome signs.
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Re: The downside of imported arms

Post by Shrinivasan »

Austin wrote:Its a two way street , the services should support and the R&D and Industry should be able to develop , if they take their own sweet time to develop and what they develop contains more then 50 % imported content then its defeats the purpose of indiginisation.
This worrying about 50% imported content is the killer. We cannot start with 100% indiginisation to start with, we might just start with 25%, but we should persist with it and have a clear roadmap to increase it year-by-year. For this there needs to be adequate support from the govt as well as the services. Regular orders of optimum size is essential to make it worthwhile to build locally.
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Re: The downside of imported arms

Post by shiv »

Philip wrote: The IN however has the best track record of all and is the service helped the least! had we not stopped sub building in the '80s,we would'v been far ahead of all ASin navies.We no lag behind Pak in AIP subs.The resistance to privatising part of Indian military manufatcure has come from the DRDO/Babudom,who want the inefficiency and unaccountability to continue forever.Until this nexus is broken,Indian indigenous efforts will flounder.The recent decision to allow Pipav port to manufacture warships,etc., is very welcome.Indian giant like L&T are already supplying the armed forces with a lot of eqpt.Thye should be further encouraged.There is enough of the giant Indian defence cake to be shared not only locally,but also with foreign suppliers in JVs and deals that support and improve our indigenous efforts.
Absolutely Philip. With the Navy being the Cinderella of the services due to all the land wars we fought - they have had to "make do" and have persistently employed Navy engineers in industry.

The army is a mixed bag. They are the oldest and biggest arm. They have actually used indigenous stuff consistently for decades. Where technology has impacted on the army in such a way that Indian industry was unable to provide them with something suitable has been in armor, artillery, missiles and communication/surveillance equipment and high tech material for clothing/shoes and protection. To a large extent the food/clothing parts have been locally produced and accepted in the army even if not of the spanking quality of imported maal. Tanks, artillery, missiles and communication/surveillance equipment is where industry needs to be able meet army demands. Another area would be specialist small arms.

I guess this is why the Air Force gets the most attention as the force needing the biggest ticket imports. The basic hardware for the air force is fundamentally high tech. While aircraft are produced only in a handful of countries of the world - state of the art combat aircraft are the domain of very few. Aircraft are also the newest technology in warfighting - every other mode of warfighting is older. Indis has a great deal of catching up to do - but that catching up demands that we anticipate certain inevitable problems

Because we are not at cutting edge level it is possible for someone else to suddenly introduce cutting edge weapons in our neighborhood. This is what happened in 1958-60 when Pakis got Sabres and Starfighters. This happened again in 1981 when Pakis got F-16s. It will happen again when Chinese tech moves forward. It can happen if Pakis get the F-35 in a decade (provided the country exists).

For these reasons we have to be ready at any given time to fight a force that is technologically superior, even as we try and close the technology gap. The nature of air warfare being what it is and the terrain we operate in - it seems to me that numbers can somewhat compensate the technology advantage that an adversary has. In addition, robotics (UCAVs) seem to be the way froward. Investment in big production lines for out own aircraft that cannot come under sanctions and funding for UAV research rather than the import of UAVs is esential

Just my thoughts.
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Re: The downside of imported arms

Post by Singha »

HAL/India had to struggle for a long time to get RR/UK to change the Adour803 engine in first lots of Jaguars to Adour811.
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Re: The downside of imported arms

Post by gakakkad »

This is a great thread because it objectively summarizes the most important problems faced by the country . Not only in the defence sector but also in other industrial sectors. I would not term maruT or LCA to be a failure . That the programs achieved what they did was a miracle in itself . This is because the programs were doomed right from their inception. They were overambitious to say the least . For them to succeed we needed a massive backing from various sectors of the civilian industry and the private sector . For instance the Tejas has a carbon fibre frame . When the program was conceived in the mid 80s how many Indian companies could provide a high quality carbon fibre composite ? Due to license raj our civilian electronic industry was non existent. Its only when relevant areas of the industry developed post liberalization that we had these things available . Even today the govt is very reluctant to let private players in the aerospace industry . Howard Hughes was able to set up his aerospace company back in 1930s . If someone intends to do so in India he would certainly go through hell .

Besides backing from the civilian industry we need a decent array of dedicated engineers and (more importantly) pure scientists. Finding those in India can be real tough . A paradoxical statement considering the volume of engineering and science grads we produce . I know that many rakshaks might want to slaughter me for saying this . But I ll say it nevertheless . Most of those grads a worthless . They have got no vision about themselves . Leave alone the country . And its not their fault. India is the only country in the world where aerospace engineers might end up as Bank managers . (there was one in standard chartered bank in ahmedabad ) When I asked him how it happened he replied " Yaar pehla option electical yaa mechanical tha , jo mujhe milaa nahin , chemistry pasand nahin tha isliye chemical ya metallurgy liya nahin. To aeronautics he bacha tha , aur BSC ki to koi value nahin thi. " .The guy had no interest in engineering yet ended up being an aerospace engineer by qualification. He worked briefly in maintenance dept of a commercial airliner before getting an MBA. My classmates who selected aeronautics out of interest are working in American and european companies .( I have 6 friends working in all the important aerospace companies that matter.) None of them would work for HAL . Neither would I if I was in their place. YET SOMEHOW HAL MUST HAVE MANAGED TO ATTRACT THE TALENT. Considering the many areas in which LCA managed to succeed.
If someone asked me one reason why The US achieved the kind of success it did my answer would the "The American UNIVERSITIES" . Amongst the many plague the Brits left us the education system is the worst . (Even worse than the India Paki problem which will resolve itself) . Our exam system is barbaric in most cases . We are probably the only country in the world which has "science college" , "commerce college" and "engineering college" . Many engg colleges don't even have a physics or math department. And R&D is impossible. American jets were not designed by lockheed or boeing . But by the professors of the universities who were consulted by these companies. Such liaison were not permitted in the Indian establishment . An IIT prof uncle of mine took consultancy fee from some company in early 90s . And he had anti corruption zealots wanting to slaughter him . When I was in MBBS a couple of years ago research paper of mine appeared in an international students journal. It was not really a big deal . Just reporting of some interesting cases and some statistical analysis .Since it was a student journal they often omitted the profs names in the author section. And a lot of hue and cry was raised due to it. I went through hell.We often complain that our students copy ideas from western journal from there projects. But the fact of the matter is that professors never accept original ideas . They are always dismissive. I am working on metabolic syndrome in SUNY Downstate med centre new york . Its a average mid tier insti for research purpose (ie it is not top 20 ranked) . But I can assure you that I have more research opportunities in downstate medical centre than the medical college I passed out from (which was top 20 in India). And finance or equipment is not the reason. There is almost nothing in Downstate med centre which was not there in THe govt college in India. The very idea I am working on in the US was turned down back @ home as being outrageous and lunatic.

The basis of stealth technology is a mathematical theorem by THE RUSSIAN PURE MATHEMATICIAN AND THEORETICAL PHYSICIST Petr Ufimtsev that deals with equations for predicting the reflection of electromagnetic waves from simple two-dimensional shapes. No technological work can be done adequate backing from pure scientists . How can we have them when going into pure science is regarded as a sign of failure . ( "padhai me weak lagta han ,BSC mein gayaa") .Its actually become a social stigma. In The US Theoretical physicist are actually revered .I have a lot of respect for ISRO which is in the top 5 space agencies in spite of all the shortcomings.

We often compare our selves with China ( the ddm even compare us with pakis :) ) . But the only country we should compare ourselves with is the US . And what can be done to bring ourselves to there level .
I therefore do not anticipate any short term change in the weapons industry . We can only hope for a miracle . (for eg tata buying lockheed :) ) . For the long term a complete restructuring of our education along with rapid removal of factors that hamper industry in India .
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Re: The downside of imported arms

Post by UBanerjee »

There is much that I agree with in your post, but I will say this, even in the US tons of engg majors go into diff fields because the money is much more there. I won't say they are worthless because they are some of the brightest people I know, but out of all the engg majors of my friends who went to college here in Khan, just one or two have actually gone into that field. All are like this- Chem E from MIT, go work for McKinsey; Electrical from CMU, go work for Citigroup; Electrical from Stanford, go work for Bain; etc. and so on. These are all top of the line ppl.

Except in US people go for finance/consulting more than IT.

To stop from being wholly OT one major problem in defense in India is the whole massive support structure that underlies defense industries is lacking. It is like many other industries were before- govt. bottlenecked at the top, with the relevant agencies completely overburdened and spread thin. E.g. HAL is supposed to replicate the spread and depth of work done in other countries by several major aeronautics players, who in turn are supported by dozens of smaller medium-sized players and talent.
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Re: The downside of imported arms

Post by Manish_Sharma »

One way to go about is going for higher quantities to make up for quality deficiency in indigenous arms. Like raising the number of armed forces from 11 lacs to 20-25 lacs by 2025. Sanctioning IAF additional 25 squadrons strictly consisting of Tejas Mk I and MkII ONLY. While going to for developing/buying tech for missile seekerheads, GaN AESA and engine techs for next 10 years. This way by 2020 we can make a rule like russia of armed forces using indigenous stuff only. For surely once this is announced countries would not be interested in sharing tech with us.

If Porkistan a country of 18 crores can keep an army of 5 lacs and 25 squadrons, can't we with population of 120 crore have 63 squadrons and 20 lac army? Even if we account for extra salaries of additional army + airstaff it will be all going into our own country instead of paying foreign nations.

Unless we are ready to raise the numbers armed forces have a reason to ask for imported maal.
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Re: The downside of imported arms

Post by shiv »

gakakkad wrote: If someone asked me one reason why The US achieved the kind of success it did my answer would the "The American UNIVERSITIES" . Amongst the many plague the Brits left us the education system is the worst . (Even worse than the India Paki problem which will resolve itself) . Our exam system is barbaric in most cases . We are probably the only country in the world which has "science college" , "commerce college" and "engineering college" . Many engg colleges don't even have a physics or math department. And R&D is impossible. American jets were not designed by lockheed or boeing . But by the professors of the universities who were consulted by these companies.
Brilliant stellar stuff. 8) And absolutely true.

India in 1947 was left with a general social and technical backwardness. Both need to be addressed. the problem of needing to import is directly related to the fact that both manufacture and higher education were sought after from abroad and we build parodies of British institutions here and as you point out, still use their completely idiotic examination system - which is a system of elimination by exposure of ignorance rather than upliftment by education. That is social backwardness. We were also left with a mindset that did not give credit where it was due in India while we automatically give credit to anything that comes from abroad.
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Re: The downside of imported arms

Post by svinayak »

gakakkad wrote: If someone asked me one reason why The US achieved the kind of success it did my answer would the "The American UNIVERSITIES" . Amongst the many plague the Brits left us the education system is the worst . (Even worse than the India Paki problem which will resolve itself) . Our exam system is barbaric in most cases . We are probably the only country in the world which has "science college" , "commerce college" and "engineering college" . Many engg colleges don't even have a physics or math department. And R&D is impossible. American jets were not designed by lockheed or boeing . But by the professors of the universities who were consulted by these companies.

Also the 3 years bachelors degree is not there any where else. It is atleast 4 years and they study deep history of their country elsewhere.
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Re: The downside of imported arms

Post by svinayak »

shiv wrote: We were also left with a mindset that did not give credit where it was due in India while we automatically give credit to anything that comes from abroad.
This is mostly social engineering but done over a period of isolation
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Re: The downside of imported arms

Post by ParGha »

shiv wrote:
Philip wrote:The IN however has the best track record of all and is the service helped the least! had we not stopped sub building in the '80s,we would'v been far ahead of all ASin navies.
Absolutely Philip. With the Navy being the Cinderella of the services due to all the land wars we fought - they have had to "make do" and have persistently employed Navy engineers in industry.
How is the Navy the Cinderella Service? They are the only service authorized resources to maintain force-levels well above the potential threats; other two services are authorized just enough to address clear and present dangers. Also the IN alone is authorized embryonic strategic forces development, like aircraft-carriers and nuclear submarines. Has India ever considered heavy strategic bombers for the IAF, or heavy strategic reserves for the Army (i.e. armor, artillery, aviation etc in TA divisions)? The IN is rather like the baby son of the family, he won't be getting the family lands or business... but he is getting excellent education and exposure; more is naturally expected of the IN. India is betting on the IN to break-out of its historic shackles.
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Re: The downside of imported arms

Post by gakakkad »

UBanerjee wrote:There is much that I agree with in your post, but I will say this, even in the US tons of engg majors go into diff fields because the money is much more there. I won't say they are worthless because they are some of the brightest people I know, but out of all the engg majors of my friends who went to college here in Khan, just one or two have actually gone into that field. All are like this- Chem E from MIT, go work for McKinsey; Electrical from CMU, go work for Citigroup; Electrical from Stanford, go work for Bain; etc. and so on. These are all top of the line ppl.

Except in US people go for finance/consulting more than IT.

To stop from being wholly OT one major problem in defense in India is the whole massive support structure that underlies defense industries is lacking. It is like many other industries were before- govt. bottlenecked at the top, with the relevant agencies completely overburdened and spread thin. E.g. HAL is supposed to replicate the spread and depth of work done in other countries by several major aeronautics players, who in turn are supported by dozens of smaller medium-sized players and talent.
I should have used the “many” instead of “most” in my reference to the inadequacy of Indian graduates. In my opinion 5-10 % of the Indian grads are simply world class. And several manage to stay back in India . One third of are grads are fairly decent. They have good knowledge of the field and are employable as engineers in complex projects. They however have limited ability to innovate. About 60 % of our grads are not employable as engineers. Nasscom puts the figure at 75 %. But my uncle in IIT puts it at 60% (not with reference to iit , for IIT he believes that 20% grads are worthless). Due to the sheer volume of grads we produce I can confidently proclaim that we have got the biggest indigenous talent pool in the world. Not all American grads are employable. Better money in the service sector is due to the fact that it has grown faster than industrial sector. Due to lack of growth in the manufacturing sector in the US there is a strong possibility of Indian engineers (and some non Indians) seeking jobs in the Indian manufacturing sector. In fact most manufacturing related employment creation is anticipated in BRIC nations. These are the only major economies with growing manufacturing base. And its likely to stay that way. If Indian manufacturing growth does not meet expectations there is likelihood of global unemployment for engineers. The advantage that we have over the Americans is the importance the Indian family puts on education . In the Brooklyn based emergency room I see a lot of drug overdose related patients in their youth. Many come from fairly wealthy families . Yet they are college drop outs. They had educational opportunities which would never be available to many Indian families . Yet they waste them.
I am not against science or engineering grads taking up managerial, consultancy or financial positions. In fact there is a lot of scope for the applications of physical principals in economics. In fact a whole new branch called econo-physics has come up . There is lot of application of chaos mathematics in economics. Economics is in many ways analogous to statistical thermodynamics. There are many physics nerds working on these topics. I am all for the greater inclusion humanities in science education. Particularly psychology and economics . Job profile like innovations manager or technology strategist (yes it’s for real, in spite of the satire in BRF dictionary :) )do exist and are necessary . The govt of India should seek consultancy of some of them in defense sector . A typical CV of them would look like this.
http://www.xing.com/profile/Christoph_Schiller6
(A german innovations manager who is a Phd IN PHYSICS , u might need google translator).
Last edited by gakakkad on 20 Jun 2011 19:51, edited 1 time in total.
shiv
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Re: The downside of imported arms

Post by shiv »

ParGha wrote: How is the Navy the Cinderella Service? They are the only service authorized resources to maintain force-levels well above the potential threats;
Maybe I should have said the Navy was the Cinderella service. Perhaps it isn't any more. It certainly gets less funds than the other two as far as I know.
Last edited by shiv on 20 Jun 2011 19:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The downside of imported arms

Post by gakakkad »

Manish_Sharma wrote:One way to go about is going for higher quantities to make up for quality deficiency in indigenous arms. Like raising the number of armed forces from 11 lacs to 20-25 lacs by 2025. Sanctioning IAF additional 25 squadrons strictly consisting of Tejas Mk I and MkII ONLY. While going to for developing/buying tech for missile seekerheads, GaN AESA and engine techs for next 10 years. This way by 2020 we can make a rule like russia of armed forces using indigenous stuff only. For surely once this is announced countries would not be interested in sharing tech with us.

If Porkistan a country of 18 crores can keep an army of 5 lacs and 25 squadrons, can't we with population of 120 crore have 63 squadrons and 20 lac army? Even if we account for extra salaries of additional army + airstaff it will be all going into our own country instead of paying foreign nations.

Unless we are ready to raise the numbers armed forces have a reason to ask for imported maal.
Pakistan is not the objective . Our objectives are much bigger. The combat doctrine will evolve over the years. It will not be feasible to maintain 25 Lakh troops . Nor necessary . We could try something like US marine corps.

A typical soldier of the future would have real time HUD that displays battle info. Network centric warfare is reality . Robotics usage in armed forces would also be a reality. You might have heard of cyborgs from movies. In the future there would be more UCAV S and unmanned self propelled artillery units that are remotely controlled. That is what we should be concentration in research.
Some kids in anna univ made their own satellite. May be we should give them such projects .



CYBORG SUIT.
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Re: The downside of imported arms

Post by ArmenT »

gakakkad wrote: The basis of stealth technology is a mathematical theorem by THE RUSSIAN PURE MATHEMATICIAN AND THEORETICAL PHYSICIST Petr Ufimtsev that deals with equations for predicting the reflection of electromagnetic waves from simple two-dimensional shapes. No technological work can be done adequate backing from pure scientists . How can we have them when going into pure science is regarded as a sign of failure . ( "padhai me weak lagta han ,BSC mein gayaa") .Its actually become a social stigma. In The US Theoretical physicist are actually revered .I have a lot of respect for ISRO which is in the top 5 space agencies in spite of all the shortcomings. .
Actually a lot of the credit for development of stealth tech should go to Lockheed's Denys OverHosler really. Ufimtsev published a paper called "Method of edge waves in the physical theory of diffraction". The key to stealth tech was actually not in the paper itself, but a small nugget buried in the appendix. What ufimtsev had done in the appendix was revisit some equations that were originally proposed by the Scotsman James Clerk Maxwell ( a pioneer of electromagnetic theory) and refined by the German expert, Arnold Summerfield. Ufimtsev had added a tiny spin of his own to those equations, showing how to predict the reflected laser energy from a flat plate and from an edge and he used those two to prove some other thing in his paper. The paper was published in 1964 but was only translated to english in 1971 and it was 1975 when Lockheed engineers became aware of it. Denys Overhosler was the guy that picked up that tiny nugget in all the other stuff in that paper and realized that it not only applied to lasers, but also any other electromagnetic waves such as radar, and allowed him to predict accurately what a given shape would reflect, without building a scale model. Prof. Ufimtsev himself was blissfully unaware of what he had done until the 1990s when he came to the US.

Ben Rich, the then head of Skunk Works, thought that the idea might have potential and basically funded a 6 month project to write the software to do the calculations for a given shape. It was classed as a small side project with no official backing and the only two guys on it were Overhosler and his mentor, Bill Schroeder, who they pulled out of retirement for this project. This is where the difference with India is, because hardly anyone in India dares work on stuff unrelated to current duties, without official backing. The results of this side project is what led to Lockheed developing stealthy shapes and what became the Have Blue program.
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