Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 2011

[anupmisra]

Paki reporting standards have improved since the last time we at BRF took them to task. Svez ship issue: India accuses Pakistan for interruption

A Tug ship was carrying MV Suez on the port of Salala port.

Indian Foreign Office called to navel advisor to Pakistan HC and recorded their protest

They also alleged that screw of Indian ship also had to face life risk.

MV Svez was hit by mechanical fault and then its fuel came to an end. That is why it had to stop on 80 nautical miles from Slala Port.

[Prem]

BLITZER: Do you -- I was going to say, do you believe there are elements in the Pakistani government, military intelligence service, who are now protecting, helping the new number one leader of al Qaeda, Ayman al-Zawahiri, who is now the number one leader?
FEINSTEIN: Well, we believe he is likely in Pakistan somewhere.
Do I believe that the government is harboring him? No.
Do I believe that the government might know or the ISI might know likely places where he would be? Yes.Do I believe that the ISI could find him if they really wanted to? Yes.
But what I'm also concerned about is when there were joint operations set up on two IED factories, those -- the people making the IED in the factories were warned and disappeared before the Pakistani troops got there. That's a big problem, because it says we can't trust you. And let me say, I think we want to trust. We want to believe that we can work together with this nation. It is important that we do so.But, you know, we suffered a big blow at 9/11. No American forgets it. You know, I remember it like it was yesterday, what happened.
And we would expect Pakistan to do the same thing if the situation was reversed. It hasn't been.
BLITZER: Well, what would it do if the Pakistanis -- and you suspect there are some Pakistanis who are harboring, helping Ayman al- Zawahiri hide out right now, you believe he's in Pakistan. If the Pakistanis, you know what they decided to do? Help the United States get the new leader of al Qaeda, who probably was just as involved in 9/11 as bin Laden was himself. Is there any chance the Pakistani government will do that?
FEINSTEIN: Well, I think that would go a very long way in showing that we can work together. It makes no sense for the Pakistanis to want to harbor terrorists, because if they're real terrorists, they don't stop. They will one day come after Pakistan.I deeply believe that. I believe it for the Taliban, I believe it for the Haqqani, I believe it for al Qaeda, and I think, you know, terror spreads.Terror has root causes. I think we need to address those root causes.
I also think that we have to take out the leadership, and that's what this is all about.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articl ... 10259.html

[shiv]

you guys are again over reading my posts. my point is may be average paki doesnt know the truth but the people who matter know the reality and slowly common men is also getting aware of it.
my other point is a section of their media is going back and trying to fix the history and revealing the stuff to pakistanis which we already knew.

i have no love lost for pakistan if they are going down the drain. i like their leftists as they tell them on their face what we wanted to say for ages.
i hope you guys get my point.

Vdutta, the problem is not with people who know reality (and tell the truth)., the problem is with the same people who know the reality but do not apologize or show nary a sign of remorse! The only way to fix history is not just attest the facts but also show remorse and apologize. Otherwise history will repeat itself.

The knowledgeable bakis are so consumed with H&D, that even if they acknowledge the truth, it is the SDRE bad yindoos who somehow won. What is not acknowledged that their lunacy is the causative factors..

In fact I believe it has become worse than this. That is why I keep speaking of cognitive dissonance. Such a large number of Bakis have been convinced that they won most, if not all wars that it is getting difficult for a Pakistani who tells the truth to remain physically safe in Pakistan. Heck even outside Pakistan - this very avatar of the thread has that story of Paki doctors meeting in the USA where a guy was ostracised for being truthful.

The need to tell lies about Pakistan's military history is not some special baki characteristic that I cook up because of hatred for Pakis. The reason is that the Pakistani army needs to perpetuate those impressions to remain in power. Even Najam Sethi was curiously quiet and subdued and was almost apologetic about his own torture by the ISI when we was speaking of Saleem Shezads death. And just yesterday - linked off this forum I read about another journalist who was tortured and a few days ago a third guy who was let off after he said he was an American-Paki.

Many Pakis may be deluded, and many others have to keep telling the lie merely to survive. Wheer are the Paki chanels interviewing and supporting Najam Sethi and others in telling their story of torture by the state? Instead Sethi has to speak of it as though it is necessary for the state to behave that way.

There is a broader point I want to make here. Many Indians who expose themselves to Pakistanis and info from Pakistan are so shocked at the lies that come from Paki sources that there seems to be undue celebration and "praise" when a Paki is seen telling the truth. That is what is so dysfunctional about Pakistan. There should be no question about right and wrong true and false - but we are making a special case for Pakis where a hint of truth is cause for cheer. That is the level to which Pakis have reduced Indians. We look for little hints of truth from the odd Paki and imagine that everything is heading in the right direction because one or two Pakis manage to acknowledge reality. For many Pakis it is a negotiating tactic. They will,for example acknowledge that they lost the 1971 war because they were bad to Bangladeshis and in exchange they will demand that Indians acknowledge that we are killing Muslims in Cashmere.

If you study Pakistan long enough you will understand that the bar for praising or complimenting them has to be set high. Praise comes easy from us as does the tendency to see goodness in the other guy.

[shiv]

I am not sure if many Indians know what Pakistanis generally believe about 1965. After all most Indians are under 45 - and I am among a diminishing minority of Indians who was alive and capable of reading papers at the time of the 1965 war.

The Pakistani version of the 1965 war is that India attacked Pakistan in September 1965 in an effort to capture Pakistan but Pakistanis united as one people and defeated Indian plans.

Those Pakis who acknowledge the truth and the version recorded in history is as follows. Gen Ayub Khan and the Paki army sent in infiltrators across the LoC as part of "Operation Gibraltar" . Many were from the Pakistani SSG (Special Services Group). These men were in mufti and were to perform acts of sabotage and eventually capture the radio station in Srinagar where they would broadcast a message that Kashmir is free. It was expected that Kashmiris would rise up in rebellion against India and join the Paki infiltrators. Ayub would then attack across the LOC by starting "Operation Grand Slam" and capture Kashmir.

What actually happened was that the Paki infiltrators were rounded up and captured or killed. Ayub then attacked across the LoC initiating Op Grand Slam. This actually put very heavy pressure on Indian forces. In order to relieve pressure on the Indian forces Lal Bahadur Shastri opened a second front in Punjab where Indian forces advanced to the outskirts of Lahore. Pakistanis routinely deny Operation Gibraltar and Operation Grand slam, and claim that India started the war by attacking Lahore and India was defeated.

Anupmisra was perfectly correct in pointing out that many Pakistanis believe that their survival next to a vicious India is their continuing victory.

[Hari Seldon]

Like someone said the other day "Denial is the state religion of Pakistan." How curiously true only.

[SSridhar]

AP sources: Pakistanis tip off militants again

WASHINGTON — US officials say Pakistan has apparently tipped off militants at two more bomb-building factories in its tribal areas. . . . One U.S. official said this was intended to give Pakistan another chance to build trust after the U.S. raid on May 2 that killed Osama bin Laden in Abbottabad.

The latest incident brings to a total of four bomb-making sites the U.S. has shared with Pakistan, only to have the terrorist suspects flee before the Pakistani military arrived much later.

Is this incident in addition to what Leon Panetta brought to bear on Kayani recently ?

[shiv]

Like someone said the other day "Denial is the state religion of Pakistan." How curiously true only.

Interestingly it was a Paki who said this. But just because a Paki says it, we would be wrong in assuming that things are getting better in Pakistan. It is only an acknowledgement of disease, not an indicator of cure or even a pointer to prognosis - or which way Pakistan is heading.

If I admit that I have AIDS - it only means I know I have AIDS, not an indicator that cure is at hand.

[Airavat]

Chairman Seraiki National Alliance Colonel (R) Abdul Jabbar Abbasi said on Saturday that the demand for establishment of a separate province was the unanimous voice of Seraiki people from Tank to Rahim Yar Khan. Addressing a gathering at a local hotel, he said Tank and Dera Ismail Khan districts would be part of that province. Abbasi said time had come to realise the dreams of 60 million Seraiki people who had been given nothing by the rulers but poverty and ignorance.

The News
Sunday, June 19, 2011

[shiv]

Is this incident in addition to what Leon Panetta brought to bear on Kayani recently ?

The Americans, who taught Pakis that Pakiness can occur without any real capability are probably playing with the morons next door. Consider this hypothetical scenario

1. I am walking down a quiet street in a tough neighborhood. I get mugged by a policemen and lose my wallet. I complain to the police but they deny and stonewall.

2. I am walking down a quiet street in a tough neighborhood. I have with me (hidden away) a camera crew. I get mugged by a cop and the whole thing is recorded on video. I then take the video to the cops and tell them "Looky here at this nice movie"

This is what the US may have done. they have set up the idiot Bakis and shown them that they are liars.

[SSridhar]

Najam Sethi et al are no longer leftists. They left the 'left' a long time back. Anyway, a leftist in Pakistan is no less a Paki than the others, at least as far as India is concerned because the 'inner Pakistaniyat' exists in full measure in all of them. Make no mistake, every Pakistani wants to destroy India. The new found 'reasonableness' is indeed a mask. Of course, we can and should exploit these people to our advantage (so long as its lasts) with the understanding that they are waiting for an opportunity to strike at us. IMO, these people are like Mawdudi who opposed Pakistan because that would deprive him of the opportunity to do dawah in India and convert the Hindus. The difference between these 'reasonable' people and the rest of the 'frothing-at-the-mouth-corners' is that they know that it is an inopportune time now for them. They want Pakistan to lie low and devise new strategies for a later day.

Pakistan has to change wholesale in order to inspire any confidence that it will become like any other normal country. It is just not as though if the military and the intelligence agencies are brought under civilian control, things will change for the better. No. The entire society has gone completely bad. Pakistan needs a bone-marrow transplantation. Even then, success is not guaranteed.

[shiv]

Asghar Khan - former Air Chief Marshall of Pakistan Air Force. Look this guy up there are many videos from him

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rGVpiWH-QI

I would like to look him up alright. He is a contemporary of my late mother and my mother recalled meeting him when he used to fly with a now long dead uncle of mine in the Royal Indian Air Force. Asghar Khan is an upright man, but mistaking all Pakistanis to be like him is an act of cognitive bias.

[Prem]

http://nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-news ... ation-bomb

Pakistan is confronted with a horrendous problem of overpopulation. As estimated on 2009 by Wikipedia: “Pakistan with 180,800,000 people living on its soil is the sixth most populous country on the globe and fourth in Asia. When Pakistan became independent in 1947 its population was estimated at 32 million. Sixty-three years later it has increased 5.6 times to 184 million. This implies an average annual rate of growth of 2.77 percent, one of the highest in the world. The population of Pakistan would touch the figure of 300 million in the year 2050, if not controlled properly and would move the country towards the worst ever crises in the near future. This has major implications for the availability and sustainability of resources needed for Pakistani people to survive. The unabated population growth is causing a catastrophic strain on the surging economy of Pakistan. No one can deny that achieving desirable rates of population growth could be an important factor in bringing sustainability of resources and averting energy problems. Vision 2030 launched by Pakistan in August 2007 envisaged an increase in the size of the economy from $141 billion currently to $1 trillion, raising per capita income from the current $925 to $4,000, complete elimination of poverty, reduction of population growth rate from 1.9 percent to 1 percent, and finally raising the literacy rate to 100 percent till 2030.

( Poakadian cant even lie intelligently. The Poakulation increase rate is 2.77, Poakulation doubles in 25 years and will be over 500Mill by 2050. Poakonomy was onlee 141 B in2007 growing under 3% a year. Population increase is one area where i would like them to beat India constantly )

[KLNMurthy]

Also it is one thing to admit defeat in your battle. It is another to admit the defeat of your nation & ideology. From their point of view they live to attack India another day, all these worthies want their 'mulk' to be stronger before they do that. That's all. No great u-turn in world views. Their is no hope for their 'mulk' unless they admit defeat and become a normal nation. You know one where the civilian leaders can fire the entire top military brass and replace them with potted plants if they so felt like it. One where a organization such as LeT or JeM is banned outright and hounded out of existence. None of of these 'brave' fellows have the courage to push that point of view.

Thank you Theoji. The bolded portion above is one sign of remorse. The other is to fix their history and admit that they are part of indic civilization and the third is to separate their religion from state craft and push it into a private sphere. Fourth will be to cast away arabic and embrace punjabi, sindhi, brahui, seraiki, kashmiri, hindi as their language. Till then there is no hope for nutty nation.

I would even settle for a simple platitudinous resolution by paki parliament that a stable and prosperous India is in Pakistan's interest. Without that all the truth telling is only a plea for improved jihad to subdue the uppity kaffir country to the east only.

Surprised to see such naievete on BRF.

[shiv]

http://nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-news ... ation-bomb

Pakistan is confronted with a horrendous problem of overpopulation. As estimated on 2009 by Wikipedia: “Pakistan with 180,800,000 people living on its soil is the sixth most populous country on the globe and fourth in Asia. When Pakistan became independent in 1947 its population was estimated at 32 million. Sixty-three years later it has increased 5.6 times to 184 million. This implies an average annual rate of growth of 2.77 percent, one of the highest in the world. The population of Pakistan would touch the figure of 300 million in the year 2050, if not controlled properly and would move the country towards the worst ever crises in the near future. This has major implications for the availability and sustainability of resources needed for Pakistani people to survive. The unabated population growth is causing a catastrophic strain on the surging economy of Pakistan. No one can deny that achieving desirable rates of population growth could be an important factor in bringing sustainability of resources and averting energy problems. Vision 2030 launched by Pakistan in August 2007 envisaged an increase in the size of the economy from $141 billion currently to $1 trillion, raising per capita income from the current $925 to $4,000, complete elimination of poverty, reduction of population growth rate from 1.9 percent to 1 percent, and finally raising the literacy rate to 100 percent till 2030.

( Poakadian cant even lie intelligently. The Poakulation increase rate is 2.77, Poakulation doubles in 25 years and will be over 500Mill by 2050. Poakonomy was onlee 141 B in2007 growing under 3% a year. Population increase is one area where i would like them to beat India constantly )

Baki jernails are too stupid to understand all this and the 200 people who attended the social networking meet in Bakistan think all Bakis are like them onlee. A nation of idiots led by idiots.


Here are the first few paras from chapter 2 of my own ebook Pakistan - Failed State put online in 2007

Chapter 2
THE PEOPLE OF PAKISTAN
Pakistan is currently estimated to have between 160 and
170 million people. Pakistan's internal turmoil prevented
a routine census from taking place in 1991, but it was
finally conducted in 1998. Pakistan's population is
currently thought to be increasing at the rate of between
2.1% and 2.8% per year. Nobody knows exactly, but even at
the lower estimate 8000 children are being born every day
in Pakistan, or one Pakistani is born every 10 seconds.
Some estimates say that Pakistan's population will double
to over 300 million, by the year 2050.

The Pakistani paper the Jang reported in September 2003
(3):
Pakistan's population will swell to 349 million by year
2050, making it the fourth most populated country in the
world

The report goes on to say:
The population growth has caused an eight-time increase
in the unemployment...With almost one third of the
population living in abject poverty, 54 million people do
not have access to safe drinking water ... 53.5 million
are illiterates. The population explosion has led to the
shortage of educational facilities, health services,
housing units, food, living space, arable land and clean
water

[KLNMurthy]

you guys are again over reading my posts. my point is may be average paki doesnt know the truth but the people who matter know the reality and slowly common men is also getting aware of it. my other point is a section of their media is going back and trying to fix the history and revealing the stuff to pakistanis which we already knew. i have no love lost for pakistan if they are going down the drain. i like their leftists as they tell them on their face what we wanted to say for ages.
i hope you guys get my point.

Cant speak for others but I "get your point", and your point is that "their leftists have seen the light". Although you have cited a few names, these guys are far from being credible. Follow their history of spewing vile. You may have picked a few choice videos where the leftists have accepted the obvious but there are other videos where your same new found friends (the same leftists) have gone to lengths to put down India and the west. Its the paki so called liberal, leftist elite that refuse to see the writing on the wall. Forget the right wing whackos, which is another animal.

There is only one paki leftist "Lal Khan" in daily times.

vdutta this is not a cricket game to appreciate opponent's players. Only acceptable pakis are those that openly repudiate pakistan, root and branch.

[saip]

What actually happened was that the Paki infiltrators were rounded up and captured or killed. Ayub then attacked across the LoC initiating Op Grand Slam. This actually put very heavy pressure on Indian forces. In order to relieve pressure on the Indian forces Lal Bahadur Shastri opened a second front in Punjab where Indian forces advanced to the outskirts of Lahore. Pakistanis routinely deny Operation Gibraltar and Operation Grand slam, and claim that India started the war by attacking Lahore and India was defeated.

Pakis do differentiate their attack in Kashmir from our attack on Lahore. According to them they did not commit any aggression against India as they were only trying to take back what is rightfully theirs and they attacked only across the LOC which is anyway disputed while India crossed the IB and thus committed aggression against their country.

[mehroke]

The back ground commentary at 2:16 states
This could be the most precise thing about the Pakistani Government

http://au.tv.yahoo.com/sunrise/video/-/ ... -ceremony/

[pgbhat]

U.S.-Pakistan Relationship Not As Bad As It Seems ---- Husain Haqqani

[pgbhat]

also Mazari's old rag had this.... I dont want to link the article.

Second Secretary at Indian Embassy in Pakistan Subra Manikim hit and injured Amir Shahzad, a motorcyclist, near Kalsoom Plaza Chowk here on Saturday.

[abhishek_sharma]

>> i wish we had those kind of people too..
that's a needless self goal IMO, we have no dearth of self-critical people. in fact we might just have too many !

+1.

One test for identifying a "reasonable Paki" (oxymoron) would be to know his/her views about the Partition of India. People like Najam Sethi would say that it was necessary for preserving the rights of Musalmaans of India.

Some others (Muslims--Indian/Paki) would say that the Partition was wrong because it weakened the Muslims of India. This is the position of Indian Muslim clerics.

A very small minority would say that partition was not really needed because the rights of all would be guaranteed in a democratic and secular society.

[abhishek_sharma]

What is cooking between the US and the Pakistani Army ?

[abhishek_sharma]

Kabul rider on TAPI gas pipeline shocks Delhi

[CRamS]

TSP's wet dreams as articulated by the nutty nation quoting the equally nutty David Ignatius. Boy, thats quite a wish list

It would be too much to rely on the assessment of a political observer and assume that the US intends showing a kindlier face to Pakistan and replace the two P3C Orion aircraft that it has lost in the Mehran naval base terrorist attack. Not only that. To calm Pakistan’s feelings outraged by certain recent events – the getting away of CIA agent Raymond Davis with the blood of two Pakistanis on his hands and the secret nightly operation at Abbottabad, for instance – David Ignatius surmises that the US would also extend its help in resolving the Kashmir dispute with India; continue to supply it spares of F-16; redress its concerns about New Delhi’s role in Afghanistan; vacate the Shamsi airbase; and hand over the control of Warsak Training Centre to Pakistan Army.

[disha]

I would even settle for a simple platitudinous resolution by paki parliament that a stable and prosperous India is in Pakistan's interest. Without that all the truth telling is only a plea for improved jihad to subdue the uppity kaffir country to the east only.

Surprised to see such naievete on BRF.

The naivette is in assuming that there is or will be a paki parliament. And why dhoti shiver about the bakis climbing up an improved Jihad? They do need to climb on improved Jihad!

[vdutta]

Wow . most of you guys are acting like a naive pdffer. i will wait and count how soon you will call me a paki agent.
if you guys dont get the point then ask me before making up stuff and assuming things.
Either some of you guys have no knowledge about them or have no confidence in our selves. looks like you have fallen for their agenda and believed in their superiority.
have belief in yourself and confidence in your fellow countrymen.

i thought we were better than them.

[vdutta]

you guys are again over reading my posts. my point is may be average paki doesnt know the truth but the people who matter know the reality and slowly common men is also getting aware of it.
my other point is a section of their media is going back and trying to fix the history and revealing the stuff to pakistanis which we already knew.

i have no love lost for pakistan if they are going down the drain. i like their leftists as they tell them on their face what we wanted to say for ages.
i hope you guys get my point.

Vdutta, the problem is not with people who know reality (and tell the truth)., the problem is with the same people who know the reality but do not apologize or show nary a sign of remorse! The only way to fix history is not just attest the facts but also show remorse and apologize. Otherwise history will repeat itself.

The knowledgeable bakis are so consumed with H&D, that even if they acknowledge the truth, it is the SDRE bad yindoos who somehow won. What is not acknowledged that their lunacy is the causative factors.

I have a suggestion., ask in those baki circles you are so proud off that if they have any remorse and without that remorse are they no different from murtad baki soovars and see the reaction.

Also ask them how they view china and are they going to welcome them? And what happens if millions of chineese come into bakiland and insist on eating pigs? See their reaction then. Till then, neither their "leftists" who utter the "truth" are brave nor are human enough to be admired leave alone followed.

wow.. this whole post doesnt make any sense. we dont live in a perfect world you know.

[vdutta]

vdutta is the perfect example of an argumentative Indian, useless doling out of utopian opinions that have no bearing on national interests.

well your number of posts suggests that you are a senior member, so why the personal attack?

[vdutta]

Asghar Khan - former Air Chief Marshall of Pakistan Air Force. Look this guy up there are many videos from him

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rGVpiWH-QI

I would like to look him up alright. He is a contemporary of my late mother and my mother recalled meeting him when he used to fly with a now long dead uncle of mine in the Royal Indian Air Force. Asghar Khan is an upright man, but mistaking all Pakistanis to be like him is an act of cognitive bias.

Thats what i am saying, common people may not know the reality but the people who actually matter know the truth.

i never said all pakistanis are like him.

[CRamS]

well your number of posts suggests that you are a senior member, so why the personal attack?

No personal attack. Just pointing out that you and your tribe belongs to that class of argumentative Indians, who have unsolicited utopian opinions on every issue under the sun except what is in India's interests. I am sure even a rapist likes the smell of roses, so does that make him a normal human being worth talking about? Likewise, given the crimes Pakis have committed against India, and continue having the wherewithal and intentions of inflicting horrendous pain & suffering on India well into the future, focusing on a good deed here or there in some Paki is at best intellectual masturbation like argumentative Indian WKKs, or at worst cowardice. As I type this, I am watching in total awe and disgust as to why is India "blessed" with such chutiyas, an Indian RAPE on B4U interview celebrities and their success and realizing their dreams; one of her guests is none other than the killer of Indians: terrorist Musharaff. Hack thoo. Can you imagine a Chinese talk to Dalai Lama about realizing his dreams? An american talking to OBL about realizing his dreams?

[negi]

This is true face of pakis.

[youtube]LGVk15bEick&feature=related[/youtube]

[Narad]

Nato planes carry out three strikes in Mohmand

PESHAWAR: US-led Nato jetfighters on Friday violated Pakistan’s airspace and carried out air attacks in Ziarat and Khwezai areas of the militancy-torn Mohmand Agency. Sources in the paramilitary Frontier Corps (FC) told The News that two Nato jetfighters intruded Pakistani airspace thrice and fired missiles at different places in the mountainous area.

The Nato planes, sources said, flew for two hours over various villages in Mohmand tribal region near the border with Afghanistan’s Nangarhar province. FC soldiers, who have been deployed on the border with Afghanistan, said there was no loss of life in the first attack by Nato jets as the missiles fired by the planes landed in a narrow valley. However, the Nato planes carried out two more attacks in the mountains at some distance from their post.

One of the officers said his soldiers were asking him why the government was silent and didn’t send PAF fighter planes to defend Pakistan’s borders. “I asked them, can President Asif Zardari slap President Barrack Obama and their reply was no. Then I argued how could our planes stop US jetfighters from intruding Pakistan,” a military officer explained while wishing not to be named. APP adds from Islamabad: Pakistan has conveyed its serious concerns to United States over the air incursion by Nato aircraft that attacked its military’s Ziarat post in Mohmand Agency.

[arun]

Ambassador of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan to the United States, Husain Haqqani, writes in CNN about the state of relations with the US.

Article has gathered a fair number of comments which may be of interest to some :

U.S.-Pakistan relationship not as bad as it seems

[Dipanker]

Wow . most of you guys are acting like a naive pdffer. i will wait and count how soon you will call me a paki agent.
if you guys dont get the point then ask me before making up stuff and assuming things.
Either some of you guys have no knowledge about them or have no confidence in our selves. looks like you have fallen for their agenda and believed in their superiority.
have belief in yourself and confidence in your fellow countrymen.

i thought we were better than them.

Where did you get that notion from? The fact actually is diametrically opposite.

[shiv]

Thats what i am saying, common people may not know the reality but the people who actually matter know the truth.

i never said all pakistanis are like him.

The debate as far as I am concerned revolves around the words "people who actually matter". I think you and I are not in agreement about the meaning of "who matters" in Pakistan, or at least my view on that is not clear to you and I disagree with what you have said.

Pakistan's dysfuntional state can no longer be blamed on some small group who matter or don't matter. Even if Asghar Khan knows the truth, or even Najam Sethi it is not making a difference to the behavior of 180 million Pakis who are on several separate trajectories of their own.

"Those who matter" in Pakistan are no longer just the army, just the LeT or just any single group. So the context in which you believe Asghar Khan or other seemingly rational people "matter" in Pakistan is unclear to me considering that the nation is on a completely irrational and in my view suicidal path.

[shiv]

Wow . most of you guys are acting like a naive pdffer.
<snip>
i thought we were better than them.

vdutta this is the second time in about 3 posts that you have yourself, without prompting, brought up the subject of a Pakistani internet forum. In an earlier post you believed that some BRFites were not well informed because they were perhaps getting their information from Paki fora.

Now you are saying that people on here behave like the people in a Pakistani forum.

It seems to me that you get more information from those fora than anyone else on here even as you claim that you know more and better than others. Nobody else has mentioned those fora, and nobody has compared you with anyone on those Pakistani fora. Perhaps you are more influenced by those fora than anyone else given that you feel the need to bring up the topic more often than anyone else?

If a lot of people have been upset or irritated by your post it means that a lot of people disagree. When a lot of people disagree with you it could mean that everyone else is wrong and you are right, or that you are wrong. These are the choices that you must make. You are welcome to feel that everyone else is wrong and that you alone are right - but you are adding to your own woes by saying that and comparing people on here with people on "pdf". That means all of us, BRFites and PDFites are wrong and you are correct. Is that what you are trying to say? That is certainly what your posts imply. It certainly gives all the "wrong" people someone to pick on.

[shravan]

9 more killed in Karachi violence today

KARACHI: At least nine more persons have been reported killed in different incidents of violence in Karachi today, SAMAA reported on Sunday.

[vdutta]

well your number of posts suggests that you are a senior member, so why the personal attack?

No personal attack. Just pointing out that you and your tribe belongs to that class of argumentative Indians, who have unsolicited utopian opinions on every issue under the sun except what is in India's interests. I am sure even a rapist likes the smell of roses, so does that make him a normal human being worth talking about? Likewise, given the crimes Pakis have committed against India, and continue having the wherewithal and intentions of inflicting horrendous pain & suffering on India well into the future, focusing on a good deed here or there in some Paki is at best intellectual masturbation like argumentative Indian WKKs, or at worst cowardice. As I type this, I am watching in total awe and disgust as to why is India "blessed" with such chutiyas, an Indian RAPE on B4U interview celebrities and their success and realizing their dreams; one of her guests is none other than the killer of Indians: terrorist Musharaff. Hack thoo. Can you imagine a Chinese talk to Dalai Lama about realizing his dreams? An american talking to OBL about realizing his dreams?

well you are the one who has kept its eyes closed to the reality and living in its made up world. people like you and your tribe wont let india progress and live in past.
no personal attack. just pointing out man.

[vdutta]

Thats what i am saying, common people may not know the reality but the people who actually matter know the truth.

i never said all pakistanis are like him.

The debate as far as I am concerned revolves around the words "people who actually matter". I think you and I are not in agreement about the meaning of "who matters" in Pakistan, or at least my view on that is not clear to you and I disagree with what you have said.

Pakistan's dysfuntional state can no longer be blamed on some small group who matter or don't matter. Even if Asghar Khan knows the truth, or even Najam Sethi it is not making a difference to the behavior of 180 million Pakis who are on several separate trajectories of their own.

"Those who matter" in Pakistan are no longer just the army, just the LeT or just any single group. So the context in which you believe Asghar Khan or other seemingly rational people "matter" in Pakistan is unclear to me considering that the nation is on a completely irrational and in my view suicidal path.

We can agree to disagree but let me explain you what i meant by people who actually matter.
people who actually matter is not a average pakistani educated or not. neither anyone gives crap about them nor they ever raise their voice.
people who matter are first and formost their establishment, then their bureaucracy, their media and politicians. Their establishment designs the public opinion through their paid for media to legitimize itself. i am not saying every media person is independent thinker as someone assumed. but their quantity is getting lesser.
to give you an example if you noticed how kamran khan took a u turn in his opinions and shows. from being establishment mouthpeice he has become anti establishment and pro reality. ( relatively speaking)
btw kamran khan is not a common case, and i dont mean things are generally moving in that way. it is just and example to show that things are moving and its establishment is losing its grip on hijaking the public opinion.

[VikramS]

vdutta:

I am not sure what you want to achieve but here is a brief primer. The question is not whether they know the truth or not; the question is the relevance of the truth.

A lot of Pakis, those who matter, and those who do not, know the truth. However, just because they know the truth however does not mean they will learn from it. For a variety of reasons, Pakis do not want to admit the truth. Primarily because it contradicts their entire existence, their entire sense of identity. To accept the truth means to accept that Pakistaniyat is false. As long as the 3.5 friends prop up TSP, Pakistanis will refuse to accept that Pakistaniyat is false. Indians who indulge in chai-biscut also allow the Pakistaniyat to stay alive, but it is a necessary evil.

The cognitive dissonance in the Pakistani psyche is obvious to anyone. But unless and until, the foundation on which these edifice of falsehood is based on collapses, their belief in Pakistaniyat will continue. It will require an utter and complete failure of their system for that edifice to collapse. Unfortunately the 3.5 friends keep on keeping them on life-support. Like Liquid Oxygen, Pakistaniyat can not thrive because it is a false premise; however it will not die because other countries still nourishing it.

So yes, you are correct in your observation. Where you not getting it is in your interpretation of the implication of those observations. Pakistaniyat is based on a unique framework built upon Peshawari Postulates, Lahori Logic, Madrassah Maths; stop using a Dharmic framework to understand it. The periodic outbursts of rational logic from the TSP chatterati is just a manifestation of their need to vent the pressure built up due to the cognitive dissonance; do not treat it as anything fundamental changing. Fundamental changes in TSP will not come from within TSP; those decisions will be made in the 3.5 capitals.

[vdutta]

Wow . most of you guys are acting like a naive pdffer.
<snip>
i thought we were better than them.

vdutta this is the second time in about 3 posts that you have yourself, without prompting, brought up the subject of a Pakistani internet forum. In an earlier post you believed that some BRFites were not well informed because they were perhaps getting their information from Paki fora.

Now you are saying that people on here behave like the people in a Pakistani forum.

It seems to me that you get more information from those fora than anyone else on here even as you claim that you know more and better than others. Nobody else has mentioned those fora, and nobody has compared you with anyone on those Pakistani fora. Perhaps you are more influenced by those fora than anyone else given that you feel the need to bring up the topic more often than anyone else?

If a lot of people have been upset or irritated by your post it means that a lot of people disagree. When a lot of people disagree with you it could mean that everyone else is wrong and you are right, or that you are wrong. These are the choices that you must make. You are welcome to feel that everyone else is wrong and that you alone are right - but you are adding to your own woes by saying that and comparing people on here with people on "pdf". That means all of us, BRFites and PDFites are wrong and you are correct. Is that what you are trying to say? That is certainly what your posts imply. It certainly gives all the "wrong" people someone to pick on.

well i mentioned that fora because thats how i feel like with name calling and people attacking me from all sides.
Please read my first post that somehow became so offensive that it brought so many attacks on me.

If people disagree with me than i dont see any issue with it. we all cannot agree on everything in life. i am fine with disagreement, that is not a bad thing in a civilized argument.
but i guess you misinterpreting when i say few people or few media person. you taking it as most of the people or most of the media persons. Thats why i have been insisting that please dont over read my posts.