UBanerjee wrote:^ That's one thing I don't get about the Marut. There were other jets with early-tech supercruise at the time, are they saying it had a better form of it, or a "truer" supercruise?
You have hit upon one of my favorite whines - the "America effect". The US media and US dominance make certain catch phrases popular. "Supercruise" is one of them. Also "fast food". In each case America invented a new word for something that existed beforehand and popularised it.Problem that plagues US steel & auto industries is actually similar to what plagues some Indian industries as well, which is badly run unions. As you point out, privatization is key.D Roy wrote:C-130 line has been running hot for a long long time. still I'll give you the argument.I mean look at the industrial efficiency and capacity of the US. Can we even compare ourselves with that? If we can do 10% of what the US is capable of doing we will be doing great.
But are they good overall? - hell no they aren't. In aerospace yes, still but barely. and they are doing well in no small part due to east asian supply chains which are frightfully good. there is a reason why they want you to build a door for their planes and ship it back in for final assembly.
As I noted in the international military discussion thread - most of the bells and whistles that go into US aerospace including the chips that run them are outsourced. it's a global industry not a US industry and they have an incumbent advantage as system integrators. it's a legacy issue directly born out of years of sunk capital costs in the form of DOD budget.
In a whole host of other sectors they are crap. Like? glad you asked - steel for instance. they are bad and they are expensive which is why the bells have been tolling there for some time now.
So what is the point you may ask?
Point is let our private sector in on the ground floor and we will be doing much better. much much better. they will be far quicker in integrating themselves with global supply chains, acquire whichever fre *** concern they have to for their business, bring in the best guys and make ourselves a real aerospace industry rather than a monopolistic overworked PSU.
It's time to end this "strategic sector' crap and let our own guys in.
NRao wrote:Considering that a web post is correctable ........................................ true.
However, if my math is correct, the upgrade will cost, what, some $77 mil per M2K and the Rafale comes in at about $82 mill per? IF the issue really is re-start of the M2K supply chain, then it is not worth it. Just plunk in for more Rafales.
Another possibility is that India divvies the MRCA purchase into Rafales and Mirage 2000-5s - perhaps 80:50.
Well yes, admittedly that is a very remote possibility. But in desperate times, desperate action etc might be the way to go, wot? India's budget is not limitless afterall - the Ecanards are going to cost a pretty penny - acquisition costs of about $ 15-20 billion with weapons etc would not be surprising. And then you have C17s, C130s, trainers, Pakfas, Helos, Jag upgrades and God knows what else; bean counters will be very wary, might scuttle M2k goldplating methinks.koti wrote:Another possibility is that India divvies the MRCA purchase into Rafales and Mirage 2000-5s - perhaps 80:50.
You got to be kidding me Sir ji.
You are suggesting the clauses of MMRCA be changed after all these rounds of evaluations......
most possibly no i guess.Cain Marko wrote:JIngo fantasy alert: Any chance of roping in UAC and sticking an AL 31 in there?
CM
ramana wrote:UBanerjee, i don't have the proofs but I read long time ago the HF-24 aerodynamically was very good. The lack of engine was a big handicap. The idea was to get the Egyptian engine (Helwan?) developed with German help. When that project died so did the prospects of powering the HF-24. The RR Orpheus engine was barely adequate.
Very interesting, thanks for the info. It's good that the Marut story is getting play, maybe will light some fires under babucracy.ramana wrote:Time, 1950 Issue ref on Kurt Tank in Argentina.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 05,00.html
Refers to Adolf Galland and Hans Ulrich Rudel.
I have a postcard signed by Rudel.
BTW he was consulted by USAF on the A-10 design.
Evolution of HF-24:
1) FW 183:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf_Ta_183
Which was developed from ME262!
2) Argentine IAe 33 Pulqui II
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAe_Pulqui_II
Sikorsky Sets Sights On Indian Orders
Jun 20, 2011
By Robert Wall
PARIS
Sikorsky is hoping to ride a wave of recent export successes to also establish a firm industrial foothold in the hot Indian growth market.
India has Two Helicopter Requirements on the horizon that Sikorsky is eyeing closely. One is a coast guard mission for which the U.S. manufacturer is bidding a tailored S-76.
But the Far Larger Program is a Medium-Helicopter Requirement,
which could Lead to Production of 300-500 Rotorcraft.
The company will likely tailor its offering around the C-148 Cyclone now completing development for Canada, says Jeff Pino, Sikorsky’s CEO, during a June 19 interview with Aviation Week.
Sheik andy B,andy B wrote:Abduls as promised AFM articles onlee:
MRCA Tender : US Firm Raytheon Locks onto India
Published : Monday, June 20, 2011
Place : LE BOURGET, France | Agency : PTI
Vying for a Pie in India's Planned Procurement of 126 MMRCA Fighters, US Defence Major Raytheon today said it was Eager to Supply Weapons Systems for being Integrated onto the Jets to be Selected from among Two shortlisted European companies.
Harry Schulte, Raytheon vice-president of Air Warfare Systems said the Company has a Suite of air-to-air and air-to-surface weapons systems that could be integrated on Rafale or Eurofighter, the two shortlisted plane makers by India, subject to US government approval.
"Raytheon is Prepared to Meet India's National Security needs and Support the Protection of India's Sovereign Interests with our Air-to-Air and Air-to-Surface weapons," he said at the Paris Air Show here.
India has shortlisted two European contenders, French Dassault Rafale and European Eurofighter for procuring 126 Medium-Multirole Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) deal for the Indian Air Force (IAF) in April.
He said Raytheon's Paveway Systems with Proven Track Record could be Integrated into the 126 MMRCA. Raytheon's Paveway is a Kit that Transforms "Dumb" Bombs into Precision-Guided Munitions; Paveway is currently in the Inventory of the Indian Air Force and 41 other countries.
The Paveway Family of Weapons are Platform Independent and Integrated on More than 27 Aircraft.
Noting that India was a Priority Country for Raytheon,
He also announced the Firm's Desire to Integrate the Combat-Proven Paveway Systems on India's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).
"Raytheon has been a Trusted Partner to India for more than Three Decades, and We Hope to Deepen this Relationship by providing the Indian Air Force the Tools it Needs to Defend India's Sovereign Interests," said Harry Schulte, Raytheon vice-president of Air Warfare Systems.
"India's Air Warriors Deserve the World's most Accurate Direct-Attack Precision Guided Munition, which is why Raytheon's Paveway is a Perfect Fit for the LCA".
Integrated on the Rafale and Eurofighter, Paveway has been extensively used in several ongoing contingency operations. Raytheon's battle-tested Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile (AIM-120 AMRAAM) is integrated on the Eurofighter.
Raytheon officials also indicated that subject to the approval of the US and Indian governments, Raytheon is Looking for Partnership Opportunities to Produce Critical Components of Paveway with Indian Industry.
"Raytheon has the Utmost Respect for the Capabilities of India's Defense Industry," said Peter Wray, Vice President of Business Development for Raytheon Missile Systems in India.
"If Raytheon were to Receive the Proper Authorisations and Find the Right Partner, We'd be Eager to Pursue Co-Production Opportunities".
Always a pleasure onlee saar.NRao wrote:Sheik andy B,andy B wrote:Abduls as promised AFM articles onlee:
Shokran jazeelan
BVBala Vignesh wrote:pragnya sir,
I belive CMji was talking about re engining of our vajras with the AL31F, not about MiG 27.
Sikorsky is hoping to ride a wave of recent export successes to also establish a firm industrial foothold in the hot Indian growth market.
India has two helicopter requirements on the horizon that Sikorsky is eyeing closely. One is a coast guard mission for which the U.S. manufacturer is bidding a tailored S-76. But the far larger program is a medium-helicopter requirement, which could lead to production of 300-500 rotorcraft. The company will likely tailor its offering around the C-148 Cyclone now completing development for Canada, says Jeff Pino, Sikorsky’s CEO, during a June 19 interview with Aviation Week.
The Canadian program has had its share of delays, but Pino suggests it is now holding to a new plan defined more than two years ago. Two of six interim-capability helicopters have been delivered to the Canadian customer, with deliveries of the full operational capability due to start next year. “This is the most capable and complex helicopter ever built,” Pino says of the militarized S-92.
.....
T-38 Trainer
The Lawmakers also asked the Pentagon to Study the Possibility of a U.S.-India Partnership for Development of a Replacement for the U.S. Air Force’s T-38 Trainer Jet.
The Planes, built by Northrop Grumman Corp.’s predecessor, have been in use since the 1960s.
indranilroy wrote:does anybody know why Ajeet trainer didn't find flavour amongst IAF?
The Folland Gnat / HAL AjeetThe Ajeet trainer never reached production. One prototype was built in 1982 and crashed in that year, a second prototype flew in 1983, and then the program went into limbo -- to eventually die. Some sources claim that 30 Ajeet trainers were built, but this is hard to believe. The IAF's requirement for an advanced trainer became something of an infamous saga (or possibly endless raga), remaining unfilled through the 1980s and 1990s, until the service settled on the BAE Hawk.
In factory dressage, LM is the King... Boeing is SDRE onlee... F-35 or F-22 manufacturing by LM is all TFTA with Blue Neon Lighting, Water Jet Baths etc...UBanerjee wrote:Where is the TFTA neon blue lighting
First Set of VIP Helicopters to be Delivered Next Year
K.V. Prasad
PARIS: India will receive next year the first batch of the 12 helicopters for transportation of VIPs. Half the fleet is expected by the end of 2012 as the assembly of the first two helicopters has commenced at the manufacturer's facilities in Europe.
Sharing this information, AgustaWestland, an Anglo-Italian helicopter company which is a part of the conglomerate Finmeccania, said here during the ongoing airshow that it is a prestigious order for the company that has a long presence in India.
“We have started assembling the first two helicopters and will be soon moving to begin work on interior design. The helicopters are being made in batches of three, and two batches would be delivered by next year,” Bruno Spagnolini, Chief Executive Officer of the company, said at a media interaction. Senior Vice-President Roberto Garavalia said the entire fleet should be handed over to India by 2013.
Last year, India ordered three-engine AW101 helicopters from AgustaWestland for € 560 million (approximately Rs.3,700 crore), which besides protection suites includes product support for five years. The helicopter would be operated by the elite Indian Air Force Communication Squadron and replace the current fleet of Russian Mi8 and Mi17.
The helicopter was selected after field trials, whose results were evaluated by the IAF and the Special Protection Group, responsible for protection of the Prime Minister and select political leaders. It was chosen over American Sikorsky S92 Superhawk for having features that suited requirements of security.
AgustaWestland supplied Seaking helicopters to the Navy four decades ago and is eyeing the growing commercial market and the military one meeting the requirements for the Armed Forces by proposing models such as
AW119,
AW109 Light Utility Helicopters,
AW 139, and
NH-90.
The company is planning to have a joint venture with Hindustan Aeronautics for military segment and with Tata in the civil sector.
Finmeccania India Country head, Paolo Girasole, said the company visualises a €10 billion market for 600 military helicopters over the next 10 to 15 years besides upgrades of existing fleet of Seaking and Kamov helicopters.
It has pitched NH90 for Indian Navy requirement for 16 helicopters, for which field trials have been scheduled later this year.
i agree with that. since DRDO - HAL have handled Jaguar, Mig 27 upgrades and have acquited well, what stops them doing the same for the M2K?? they can put the LCA MMR (if/once certified), Samtel MFD/HUD/HMD (HMD being the thales samtel jv) and the DARE EW suite. Derby being the choice for LCA can be integrated for M2K too!! this will bring commonality and the logistical/support chain is simplified and is also a lot more cost effective. OTOH if MICA is the choice (assuming Rafale would be the MRCA winner) that can be dealt with as part of MRCA negotiations.Singha wrote:methinks the french would be 'placated' if they landed the MRCA deal to the extent where they might co-operate in supporting from the side a HAL-IAI limited upgrade that involves 2032 etc. they would continue to make $$ until the M2K flies from lucrative areas like the engine - the costliest part that always needs a pipeline of spares, airframe parts, landing gear, FCS etc.
but the sticking point might be the time/cost/difficulty of Mica + EL2032 vs the readymade soln with RDY3.
don't know that but the MOD 'as reported' wants the upgrade to be done by only the OEM.SaiK wrote:the french has to agree for tinkering m2k right?.. or is it beyond time and it is totally under our legal limits?
well, certainly it won't be 'impossible'. they would be able to considering the Jaguar and Mig 27 upgrades.M2K upgrade can be easily done by jaguar team.
The M53-P2 could be replaced with the upgraded Kaveri K10 baselined version as well.. at a later stage?
considering the falling number of squadrons a need to keep the existing airframes uptodate is definitely the need of the hour and the M2K is liked by the IAF.are we in a hurry to replace the engines so bad in m2ks?
