The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 20 Jun 2011 18:15

As I siad in P29 of this thread, all that really matters is what happens in 2014. However I dont expect the Status Quo in the country to change for next 15 years. As Chidambarum said, in the next 15 years it will be Congress or Congress Lead Government

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 20 Jun 2011 18:17

archan wrote:
Hari Seldon wrote:Some 'nationalists' have gone off on a wild goose chase in this thread and in the process made regular-joe sane nationalists look terrible by imaginary association only. Yup, quite a few of my opinions resonate with the sane nationalist types. And I'm embarassed with osme of the packeeness of display. To think that importing packee or cheeni style 'gubo-rnance' was actually championed on a BRF dhaga.... what's the world coming to?!
saar we get all kinds on here... what to do onlee..

Oh please. OP had his heart in the right place. And to judge a person by one post is quite unfair tbh. And I was accused of supporting this thought despite explicit words that I concur with OP on one of the issues. And then several were off the mark with the first salvos of the standard Nazi/Communist/revolutionary/Maoist/Nationalist/fascist accusations. 3 pages later, after some cursory reading, it is quick to come to conclusions and tarnish the OP's name forever.

Somnath, will get back to you later.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 20 Jun 2011 18:20

From the IE Link and this is coming from Kejriwal if i am not mistaken:

“While there can be corrupt in Railways, they cannot be so in Delhi Metro as the system is strong there. I spoke to Delhi Metro chief E Sreedharan this morning and he told me that they have a system in built. Even if Sreedharan leaves and if the system remains, there will be no corruption,” he said.

Few pages back on 15th i'd written:

If a system can only be run by genius and dedicated people, then something is wrong in the system. The system should be such, that even if a duffer comes, it should manage because of the checks and balances within it. The test of a good system is indeed ironically putting a lot of corrupt people on top and seeing what they can do..the checks and balances within should either catch them while they do something stupid or they are unable to do it at all. (Not that i imply it's good to put such people there).That's why people express (or used to) puzzle why Indians do so well in the US and not in India (this was pretty much a cliched observation before India changed too and Indians started to do well in India too). In one system a person can shine and and the same in another rot.

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 20 Jun 2011 18:50

Hari Seldon wrote:Some 'nationalists' have gone off on a wild goose chase in this thread and in the process made regular-joe sane nationalists look terrible by imaginary association only. Yup, quite a few of my opinions resonate with the sane nationalist types. And I'm embarassed with osme of the packeeness of display. To think that importing packee or cheeni style 'gubo-rnance' was actually championed on a BRF dhaga.... what's the world coming to?!

Brother Hari,

People(Indians) have been brain washed into accepting an alien(to our culture) Western Style constitution, an alien(to our culture) Western style government, an alien(to our culture) Western style Judiciary and al alien(to our culture) Western style bureaucracy including the police by the British and the Macaulytes. A lot of us have therefore, come to regard our alien system and things like democracy and secularism more sacred than our own religion. So when someone like me comes along and says I dont "recognize" this system, which moreover has proven to be a failure not over one year, two years, ten years, 50 years, but 60 years, it is too much for some of us to handle, due to the intense mental programming of some of us. Its like one of older episodes of Star Trek, where a device is installed in people's brains on one planet, which then starts applying electric shocks directly to the person's brain, the moment he starts thinking about things which are supposedly out of bounds for them to think.

Other than the fact that there is this mental block that has been placed on a lot of us via education, media, western worshipping etc, what exactly is wrong with what I say specifically. Let me ask people this.

Even for those that get electric shocks at the utterance of the mere phrase "dump the current system", do you folks think that we should NEVER EVER consider dumping the current system ? So, even if you dont think we are at that stage yet, if we keep on declining, keep losing our territory, keep suffering from alien induced terrorism, keep increasing corruption, keep getting insecured about securing out property within India, do you think there ever will come a point when you would consider dumping the current system ?

OR your position is, no matter what, we will live or die by the current system and take everyone else down with us too.

If you think that yes, if things become bad enough, you would consider dumping the system, what is that inflection point ? I mean what is the threshhold ? At what point will you say, lets dump this garbage ?

When the government gifts away Kashmir, for example ? Would you change your mind then ? If the government gives away Tawang ? what then ? If the government allows for Tripura to go from 70% Bangladeshi to 90%, will you change your mind then ? There is massive conversion of tribals going on in MP and Chattisgarh, I know this through very direct personal experience and no one talks about it. I think already about 15-20% tribals have been converted and there is a conspiracy in the government not to count them. So, when the percentage goes to 30% will you change your mind? 40% ? 50% ? When ? or is your position that no matter what as long as the growth stays above 9%, we will want to keep the current system ?

I would be very interested to know different people's personal tolerance for pain, before they break and say, "Screw the darn system". So, what is yours ?

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 20 Jun 2011 19:01

amit wrote:
Just so that you know I don't buy the story of all voting machines being manipulated by a hyper power remotely from come cave complex.

That is the wrong question. Any assertion that the machines are not rigged is pure blind faith.

The real issues are whether the machines are transparent and verifiable (absolutely not), whether there have been suspicious "malfunctions" (plenty), and whether Netas would love to rig them (of course).

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 20 Jun 2011 19:01

somnath wrote:
nataraja wrote:I again believe that after reading ALL my posts on this thread, any reasonable person can only come to the conclusion that people who are attacking me have nothing but heavy personal interest in the perpetuation of the current interest.
Well, dont take yourself or the intentions of others in this forum so seriously..Thats a mistake a lot of people tend to make here IMO...If people have to peddle vested interests, a name-anonymous blog is the worst possible place to do it....

Out here, the best we can hope for is ideas swapping, and a bit of gyaan from someone with domain knowledge on certain topics...And some entertainment over flames So, stop imputing motives where none can be plausibly implied...

Som,

Do you approve of Harbans's outburst on this thread ? Please make your thoughts on that clear, if you are a responsible, mature and fair individual.

archan · Post by **archan** » 20 Jun 2011 19:02

Aditya_V wrote: My only Question is why hold one side to a different standard and set of rules like evidence when people like Kumaraswamy, Moily, Chidu, Rahul Ghandi, Divijay, Sibal, Renuka Chowdary &Co. and a whole lot have all been making baseless statements.

OK!!

I, archanullah, hereby state that:
Kumaraswamy, Moily, Chidu, Rahul Ghandi, Divijay, Sibal, Renuka Chowdary &Co., Zardari, Ganja, insert-your-fav-politician here, and a whole lot have all been making baseless statements.

Now:
Maneka Gandhi just made a baseless statement which simply undermines the struggle by Anna Hazare, Ramdev and Co.

phew! feels good to be balanced finally!

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 20 Jun 2011 19:28

Interesting - why suddenly the panic of creating a pan-Indian "militia" that is not answerable to the "sovereign" "people" -the "Parliament"? When the LokPal is not answerable to the very same "Parliament" or "people"? Oh no - these are specially fragile creatures - whose preponderantly "legal background" members can only be looked into by similar special super-human class of individuals of legal background from the "Supreme Court". Moreover when penalties do not need to be spelled out to be taken by these luminaries against false complainants of "corruption", such a retaliatory measure must be explicitly spelled out - in case "false" allegations takes place against these super-human members - again as decided by their elite brethren in the Supreme Court.

Then its a matter of the PM telling the President to sign off the papers. Lo and behold, the "sovereign" people and "Parliament" are in control!

Pan-Indian police, independent of "supervision" from entrenched political interests - is not good for the health of politics. A much larger body will develop - ideas about power on its own, and will also manage greater protection of its own interests. What! You do not want a second "ISI"(the Paki type and not the Indian institution! - to prevent sly potshots) that reduces the profits from power - do you? We should only have one Gilani or Zardari sharing the benefits of dus-percenti with other elite - and he/she should not have a competing Kayani!

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 20 Jun 2011 19:39

brihaspati wrote:Interesting - why suddenly the panic of creating a pan-Indian "militia" that is not answerable to the "sovereign" "people" -the "Parliament"? When the LokPal is not answerable to the very same "Parliament" or "people"? Oh no - these are specially fragile creatures - whose preponderantly "legal background" members can only be looked into by similar special super-human class of individuals of legal background from the "Supreme Court". Moreover when penalties do not need to be spelled out to be taken by these luminaries against false complainants of "corruption", such a retaliatory measure must be explicitly spelled out - in case "false" allegations takes place against these super-human members - again as decided by their elite brethren in the Supreme Court.

Then its a matter of the PM telling the President to sign off the papers. Lo and behold, the "sovereign" people and "Parliament" are in control!

Pan-Indian police, independent of "supervision" from entrenched political interests - is not good for the health of politics. A much larger body will develop - ideas about power on its own, and will also manage greater protection of its own interests. What! You do not want a second "ISI"(the Paki type and not the Indian institution! - to prevent sly potshots) that reduces the profits from power - do you? We should only have one Gilani or Zardari sharing the benefits of dus-percenti with other elite - and he/she should not have a competing Kayani!

Brihaspati Sb,

I am becoming a follower.

And I am not even the follower type.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 20 Jun 2011 20:38

Is corruption in the genes?

I know of many families who stay high and aloof from corruption. Though it becomes impossible to study each individual thoroughly, one can see a face and tell if the person is corrupt or inclined towards it. I just feel it hit me directly, when I see someone. A kind of telepathy occurs.Definitely if the person is not corrupt I do feel the difference too.

Perhaps genes play a role, perhaps not, biologists would be able to shed light on that.I often recall with fond memories, how dad once rebuffed an attempt to be bribed, right before my eyes, when I was just 18. I had just walked in home, and it was evening. A man came to the door, asking for dad, so i called him and returned inside. In a few moments I heard loud shouting and rushed out to see notes flying around and sweets fallen on the ground.This man had brought a wad of notes hidden under the sweets, and was attempting to bribe dad for passing a contract.I was shocked, but I realised the integrity dad help up to such high levels, was showing up that day.The man rushed off, after collecting all his fallen notes and we had to sweep the sweets away before ants made their way all over the sidewalk.

Coming back to "genetics and corruption" I would like to read scientific articles about this.

One article I found, if anyone cares to read it is here http://www.personalityresearch.org/papers/jones.html

There are so many people in the high offices and in the field of law and order, who have different ideas of corruption, some think it is normal, some think it is illegal,some think it is a fashion, some think it is a crime, but no single authority has been able to quantify and classify corruption appropriately, and perhaps the Lok Pal Bill is the first step in the right direction, for a sea-change in India's future.Why is it so difficult to view corruption objectively? Now that the bugle is blowing, many are waking up, backlogs will come up constantly for attention, once this bill is passed. I predict a hectic 2011 followed by a very decisive 2012. Lets hope for the best.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 20 Jun 2011 20:42

nataraja ji,
please do be careful. You stand the risk of being dubbed "Hindutva-vadi" - and of the "expansive" type. You can visit the "sectarianism" thread for what other labels you could be stuck with.

I am not a supporter of dictatorship or authoritarianism, and I am against "deracinated" (I only mean "rootless" and nothing more) urbanized, dhimmi elite looking down upon the rest of non-urban/non-dhimmi/non-elite India - prescribing "concrete" solutions for the last 70 years, but which always somehow onlee benefits or protects the interests of whichever section of society deals with big-financial flows at that time.

I have had severe criticism to even observe that most profound transitions of social systems - with regards to fundamental reform - always seem to happen under dictatorial or authoritarian regimes. At the same time I don't support authoritarianism or dictatorship. My basic complain against one more top-dressing from the entrenched elite within the rashtra - using popular grievances to carve out more personal power for this or that faction of the elite - is that ultimately all these are to protect entrenched interests.

Ultimately such ineffective institutions - of which we have a whole string of duds - lends wind to those who seek dictatorial regimes, in our case the Maoists and the Islamists. I don't like them, and hence I do not want further ammunition in their hands.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 20 Jun 2011 21:03

nataraja,

your reading is wrong. if you start from an educated and academic position, constitutionalism, democracy and secularism as they exist in india will appear as a sham. but if you start bottom first, and see how politics and inter community relationships etc are practiced and then try to theorize, then you will see that most people are fairly comfortable with the structure of indian political system and the overarching tenor of the intercommunity ideas. what is practiced may not be democracy or secularism. but it is far away from non-democratic and sectarian ideas. you will also see that there is no appetite for non-democratic and sectarian ideas.

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 20 Jun 2011 21:08

Brihispati Sb,

No one likes authoritarianism. I think it is only a very shallow reading of my posts or a very shallow reader, who would read that into my posts.

If people dont see that what I am saying is that things within the current system are so bad and hopeless that many people, not just me, are now begining to be prepared to take very great risks of the unknown in order to get the current system overturned.

So, if the current system is set aside, then the question is 1) what is desirable to replace it with and 2) realistically what is likely to replace it.

Clearly what is desirable is another free system, a truly free system based on some other principles than what are enshrined in the constitution.

What is likely, though, is some sort of an authoritarian system. I am saying that even if that is the case, I am willing to take the chance of setting aside the current system. I am not saying I will enjoy such a system. But I am enjoying the current system even less.

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 20 Jun 2011 21:14

shaardula wrote:nataraja,

your reading is wrong. if you start from an educated and academic position, constitutionalism, democracy and secularism as they exist in india will appear as a sham. but if you start bottom first, and see how politics and inter community relationships etc are practiced and then try to theorize, then you will see that most people are fairly comfortable with the structure of indian political system and the overarching tenor of the intercommunity ideas. what is practiced may not be democracy or secularism. but it is far away from non-democratic and sectarian ideas. you will also see that there is no appetite for non-democratic and sectarian ideas.

Well, I understand what you are saying. Instead of saying, you are wrong, when I disagree with you, I will just say that having understood what you have said, we fundamentally disagree.

The reason I dont say you are wrong is that my experiences of what most people are "fairly comfortable" with may be different than what your experiences are. I dont believe most people are comfortable with the structure of indian political system today. I also think that there is more apetite than you think for non-democratic ideas.

Regardless, if we look at the situation as technocrats and not as ideologues, then we are only concerned with results. And our current system does not produce results. We may be better off learning something from the Chinese about taking a very dispassionate technocratic, non ideological approach to solving major problems that we face. How much do we take or borrow from the Chinese, can be open to discussion, but friend or foe, we can and should learn from anyone who is producing good results, while we are not (again 9% growth notwithstanding).

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 20 Jun 2011 21:20

nataraja wrote:Brihispati Sb,

No one likes authoritarianism. I think it is only a very shallow reading of my posts or a very shallow reader, who would read that into my posts.

If people dont see that what I am saying is that things within the current system are so bad and hopeless that many people, not just me, are now begining to be prepared to take very great risks of the unknown in order to get the current system overturned.

So, if the current system is set aside, then the question is 1) what is desirable to replace it with and 2) realistically what is likely to replace it.

Clearly what is desirable is another free system, a truly free system based on some other principles than what are enshrined in the constitution.

What is likely, though, is some sort of an authoritarian system. I am saying that even if that is the case, I am willing to take the chance of setting aside the current system. I am not saying I will enjoy such a system. But I am enjoying the current system even less.

I understand. Just a pointer - as to where you will be led into, by nudges and suggestions, and when you rightly react - if you are not that careful.

Thats all.

kenop · Post by **kenop** » 20 Jun 2011 21:38

Happened to chat with a lawyer this afternoon waiting in a local district court. Earlier I had the opinion that for Lokpal to be above Judiciary may be good as there may be corruption in this field. The corruption-in-Judiciary opinion was not formed based on any first hand experience of any kind
The lawyer was pretty clear that
# Judiciary should not be answerable to anybody in the sense PM is answerable to the people. It is against the basic principle. It should just apply law and deliver judgement without bothering about anybody's opinion (at the end of any case one party will certainly have a grievance)
# The principle being that Dharma is above the King. Our country is still Dharmic and it is not going to go the way others are (he mentioned things like the natural tendency of Indians to take the right path etc.)
# Our Judiciary is mostly clean. A very minuscule portion is corrupt and we should not hamper the good work being done by the large majority of the clean members of the Judiciary. Once Judiciary is answerable to anybody, it will become impossible for them to function.
# The present system is working purely due to the great institution of Judiciary. If it were to be hampered the corrupt will take the whole system down.
Some time ago a bureaucrat friend of mine too made similar observations where he said that a few scams may happen but these cannot go unpunished as our Judiciary is strong.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 20 Jun 2011 21:41

I agree with that. Our judiciary is strong,but our democracy is not matured, our politicians are not matured,and we have almost everyone flouting power, when they get elected.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 20 Jun 2011 21:52

Indian Democracy is not matured because central government of India has too much power. When Panchayat and Mohalla committes have power to

1. Collect taxes in their jurisdiction and pay some % to central/state government.
2. Hire/Fire the police officials in their Jurisdiction.
3. Hire/fire teachers at their local school.
4. Hire/fire doctors and other administrators in their locality.
5. Hire/fire contractors to build infrastructure in their jurisdiction.

Then corruption will slowly wither away. So the real answer to fix India's problem is to go back to the age old tested method of Panchayat at village/mohalla levels with all powers in their area. Then law will get implemented and justice will be served with swift action.

BTW.. Forum moderators please wake up and clean this thread.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 20 Jun 2011 21:55

So that makes one single mature adult among a bunch of all immature children? Accountability is a great thing, but only for the immature! There was a lot of khujli from a host of p-secs, eminent historians, politician friends of eminent historians, and friends of "Dalits" against "Brahmans" - who place themselves above everyone else in "accountability" according to them. No such disgust at this claim of total immunity? At least no loss of H&D at the hands of the mango janta? Casual and callous dismissal that one party will always be aggrieved - so what? That speaks volumes about the attitudes that these sole claimants of "maturity" hold. Here is the arrogance of "holier than thou" enjoyment of sense of personal power.

In a bunch of immature sheep, there is only one mature wise leader. Does not that smack of dictatorship - pretension of benevolence or not? Is not that too much power to someone unaccountable? The same could be said about all other targeted institutions! Why tar and feather all "politicians" or all "parliamentarians" because just a few get involved in "scams"? Why tar and feather all bureaucracy, when only a few "are corrupt"?

And how do we at all get to know they- the babus and the politicians- are corrupt - because others among them, as well as from outside are able to use their "accountability" to non-members of their own professional circle. No, onlee the judiciary must be exempt from such outside "scrutiny". Well if they cannot trust others in the same way they trust their own, why should others trust them at all! A lawyer would defend such unaccountability - his power and money-making ability depends on this very unaccountability of the institution.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Jun 2011 22:01

In the 90s the judiciary got liberated from Political-babu nexus. IIRC the CJI demanded and got the right to make judicial appointements to higher courts.
Earlier the politicians would make the recommendations and the Governor/President would confirm them. This allowed Mrs G to pack the courts(before Emergency) and/or transfer the judges across the country to disrupt their fmailies in order to make pliable judges. All this went away so am told.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 20 Jun 2011 22:04

I think we all agree that when 4 generations of one family have reigned for over 70% of post -independence timeframe, there is something fundamentally wrong with the nature of India's supposed democracy. And while rational thinking countries move towards a policy of muscular liberalism that enforces traditional liberal values, India has moved in the opposite direction under the INC.

Is that cause for complete disenchantment with the system just yet? That to me would be a little premature, but I do agree it is time for all right-thinking individuals to convey in no uncertain terms - that these are obvious causes for outrage. The message needs to get across in whatever way possible.

I am optimistic that we will not get to see the 5th member of the Dynasty subvert whatever little hope there is for Indian democracy...What is required is that the right to protest, organize and dissent under the democratic system be leveraged to the maximum - to achieve the required results.

Interestingly, the US constitution actually allows for the right to revolution in extreme circumstances.....going purely by logic, one of course cannot rule out that the said extreme circumstance will never be reached for India. But I would just say that we are not there yet. I have stated before that in India, the only thing that works to change the system is to kick butt and keep kicking harder. If talk of 'revolution' is a part of the kicking butt strategy - then there might be something to it, but only after other avenues have failed.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 20 Jun 2011 22:15

We suck up to the rich high and mighty, believe it or not.We the people, prop these dynasties. Eventually we have to moderate them,and bring them down to earth.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 20 Jun 2011 22:31

ramana wrote:In the 90s the judiciary got liberated from Political-babu nexus. IIRC the CJI demanded and got the right to make judicial appointements to higher courts.
Earlier the politicians would make the recommendations and the Governor/President would confirm them. This allowed Mrs G to pack the courts(before Emergency) and/or transfer the judges across the country to disrupt their fmailies in order to make pliable judges. All this went away so am told.

But they have not hurt the dynasty either since then.

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 20 Jun 2011 23:14

Arjun wrote:I think we all agree that when 4 generations of one family have reigned for over 70% of post -independence timeframe, there is something fundamentally wrong with the nature of India's supposed democracy. And while rational thinking countries move towards a policy of muscular liberalism that enforces traditional liberal values, India has moved in the opposite direction under the INC.

Is that cause for complete disenchantment with the system just yet? That to me would be a little premature, but I do agree it is time for all right-thinking individuals to convey in no uncertain terms - that these are obvious causes for outrage. The message needs to get across in whatever way possible.

I am optimistic that we will not get to see the 5th member of the Dynasty subvert whatever little hope there is for Indian democracy...What is required is that the right to protest, organize and dissent under the democratic system be leveraged to the maximum - to achieve the required results.

Interestingly, the US constitution actually allows for the right to revolution in extreme circumstances.....going purely by logic, one of course cannot rule out that the said extreme circumstance will never be reached for India. But I would just say that we are not there yet. I have stated before that in India, the only thing that works to change the system is to kick butt and keep kicking harder. If talk of 'revolution' is a part of the kicking butt strategy - then there might be something to it, but only after other avenues have failed.

Good post. Finally, a mature reading of my posts.

We have a right to revolt, not because the US Constitution allows for it, which it does, but because that is the very nature of things. All human beings have a certain threshhold of suffering pain. The threshhold varies for each individual. But when sufficient number get below their tolerence level for pain, they need not even be a majority, revolutions are bound to occur. Indians in general have an extremely high tolerance for pain. I THINK LOWERING OUR TOLERENCE FOR PAIN WOULD SERVE US WELL AT THIS JUNCTURE.

Not all revolts are justified in hindsight, not all revolts lead to better things and some revolts lead to some dreadful violence, which no one likes. Not all revolts are bloody either. In our discussion, we have'nt arrived yet as to the possible nature of our next revolt. Who knows, it may be bloodless. Then again, it may not be.

I am happy to see you acknowledge the obvious. That even you have a certain threshhold of pain tolerance, below which you will revolt too. So, you say that you have not reached your threshhold for pain tolerance. Fine. Fair enough. Just grant other people enough respect that maybe because of their own individual circumstance, or even if their circumstances are similar to yours, their threshhold for pain tolerance is less than yours. Just like, I cannot force you, I can try and convince you, but cannot force you to revolt, be understanding and not force people who have reached their own threshhold of pain, not to revolt.

So, if you have not yet reached your threshhold of pain tolerance, enough to revolt, can you list what factors have to be present for you to cross that threshhold ? What conditions have to exist for you personally to cross that rubicon.

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 20 Jun 2011 23:28

shaardula wrote:nataraja,

your reading is wrong. if you start from an educated and academic position, constitutionalism, democracy and secularism as they exist in india will appear as a sham. but if you start bottom first, and see how politics and inter community relationships etc are practiced and then try to theorize, then you will see that most people are fairly comfortable with the structure of indian political system and the overarching tenor of the intercommunity ideas. what is practiced may not be democracy or secularism. but it is far away from non-democratic and sectarian ideas. you will also see that there is no appetite for non-democratic and sectarian ideas.

Shaardula,

Just one observation. You refered to "sectarian idea". If I am not wrong, you are using that term to refer to the "Hindu Nation" concept. A concept that if in today's world it is acceptable to have a Jewish nation, and many Islamic nations, particularly Islamic nations who are hostile to us, individually and collectively as one monolith, and they exist with international recognition TODAY, in our neighborhood, causing us trouble abetted by the so called responsible "International Community", why is it even unthinkable, nut case thinking or fringe point of view or extreme thinking to contemplate a Hindu Nation.

Ordinarily in a healthy world and society, which we may or may not have a few centuries down the road, where all religions build into their doctrines a strong element of co-existence and mutual respect, we would not need a Hindu Nation. But in today's world where religious, sectarian and race based concepts still define the modern state, a weak people like us tooting the concept of a secular state is not only stupid, but mind boggling.

Why cant I want to have a Hindu state ? If not, who will protect the Hindus physically and emotionally? Admittedly, we Hindus are today a flawed people. But who is not flawed ? ARe the Islamists not flawed ? Are the Christian not flawed? Are we so much more flawed than others that we dont even deserve basic protection ? Are you so far gone that it is ok for everyone to dump on us ? I dont think so. I think we also deserve to live and live with respect and free of any overhang of potentially being looked down upon when we openly profess our faith. So, who will protect the Hindus ?Clearly this rotten state that we have today does not. And who says that we will not treat non Hindus well within a Hindu state. Genuinely well.

So, please. As much as I dislike fundamentalist Islam, I would not call that concept, "sectarian". I will respect your religion and call it a religion, not a sect. Please call my religion, Hinduism, a religion, a philosophy, a theology, but please dont call my idea of a Hindu Nation, a "sectarian idea". Hinduism is not just a sect, it is a religion.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 21 Jun 2011 00:11

somnath wrote:
SwamyG wrote:So with dharma being the underlying foundation, I am all for policies and regulations to provide checks and balances. But you are dismissing the implementation details & refusing to accept we need national character, vision, pride and other cultural (yes sanskritic) elements that will act as a foundation.
Well, I dont know what you mean by "purushartha, dharma" et al - when were these concepts in their full "bloom"? The Gupta age? Or the Maurya? Unfortunately we live in the 21st century, most people dont identify with the Guptas or Mauryas...Its a bit like saying that the Italians should take lessons on rejuvenation by referring back to the Roman Age...

Full bloom? Well the Western/European economic model has destroyed all local economic models where ever they go. Read Afghanistan's last Locavores

MANY urban Americans idealize “green living” and “slow food.” But few realize that one of the most promising models for sustainable living is not to be found on organic farms in the United States, but in Afghanistan. A majority of its 30 million citizens still grow and process most of the food they consume. They are the ultimate locavores.

During the 12 months I spent as a State Department political adviser in northern Afghanistan, I was dismayed to see that instead of building on Afghanistan’s traditional, labor-intensive agricultural and construction practices, the United States is using many of its aid dollars to transform this fragile agrarian society into a consumer-oriented, mechanized, fossil-fuel-based economy.

I am sure you will agree with some of the points raised in the article.

Guptas and Maurayas? Well make things look cool people will follow it, it does not matter if it is thousand years old wisdom. Wisdom needs to be packaged rightly.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 21 Jun 2011 02:56

ramana wrote:In the 90s the judiciary got liberated from Political-babu nexus. IIRC the CJI demanded and got the right to make judicial appointements to higher courts

1993, the SC judgement took an aggressive call on the relevant statute and monopolised the powers of judicial appointments (higher judiciary) to an SC collegium, wiht the executive having no role to play...

Its been an unfortunate development - India is the only country where higher judges are appointed only by their own tribe...The other important piece of legislation that is pending is the Judicial Accountability Bill, which addresses the issue (selection of judges is by a wider group, somewhat like Lokpal)...

But its a bit funny that a discussion on corruption veered around to
1. India's worthlesness as a democracy
2. Appropriateness of Chinese/Paki systems
3. Dynasty
4. Hindu rashtra
5. Lack of adequate "dharmic"-city

Strange that the hottest story in the world has such fundamental, nearly "genetic" deficiencies!
Notwithsatndign the tenuous links that these have to the issue of corruption...

SwamyG wrote:Guptas and Maurayas? Well make things look cool people will follow it, it does not matter if it is thousand years old wisdom. Wisdom needs to be package rightly

And who should do it? The govt? They cant package even condoms attractively

This is a generation that wants IPAD2 today, and not IPAD1.......Lessons on dharmic facets of the Gupta age, in front of IPAD2? No chance, IMO....

The battle against corruption has a bit more urgency to it than hoping for moral "regenration" of a specific type, dont you think?

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 21 Jun 2011 03:02

I hope this thread is preserved from 10 years from now. For those that challenged and argued against me and Somnath Ji here. Why 10 years? Is because things will become clearer to them, possibly at that time frame only.:

1. That the problem of 'corruption' is one of definition, policy reform and rational law. Escapes them now.

2. The problem of corruption is NOT the biggest exchequer drain on India. The biggest exchequer drain ironically have been the sworn ideals of some of those very self righteous left centered Gandhian types who are presently loudest against corruption.

Once you understand the above, you will be better able to comprehend the failure. Because the folks even on this forum that have shouted the loudest against corruption are a reason. The reason is simple, when in the 80's people like me argued it was OK to allow gold imports legally, i was shouted down. When i said about freeing the economy, i was shouted down. My memories and the bitterness of those debates then are still fresh.

Some of them, don't look me in the eye till today, even though i don't carry a chip. They know the memory of those bitter days won't go away. They lost. They wanted to perpetuate the socialist left culture or authoritarianism as expounded by Sanjay Gandhi and of course now Mr Nataraja Ji. These are the type of guys..who'd be jumping with joy in case SG came to power on Emergency NOW on the corruption front. So much for:

Som and Harbans have much better taste. They would not be serving a cheap, roadside shanty made cake to Respected Rahul ji. They would be offering the very sumptuous and finger licking Tiramisu flown specially(or freshly arrived as part of carry on baggage of the highly revered Soniaji) from Risorante Pompi in Rome !

And these are exactly the kind of people that argued and held back liberalization for decades perpetuating the poverty, swiss bank accounts and eulogized Sanjay Gandhi, Chacha of Yuvraj.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 21 Jun 2011 03:51

The ultimate in corruption is nepotism:

http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.co ... t-is-rahul

Hazare, Ramdev et al (not to mention BJP) have missed the point.

So have we. Nehru/IG/RG and now ...plus ca change c'est la meme chose non?

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 21 Jun 2011 04:17

Some folks here dislike the Gandhi dynasty. Okay. Dislike the fact that its been voted back to power. Okay. Would to see a change in leadership. Okay. Solution: adopt an authoritarian model in lieu of democracy. Oka...wait ...what???!!!

Are things really that bad? Corruption may have increased absolute size, but relative to the larger economy its been steady or decreasing. The government is decentralizing, becoming more efficient and transparent albeit at an unsatisfactory pace. The last decade has seen unprecedented improvements in infrastructure as well as well as most social indices measuring the quality of life (with the exception of the Gini coefficient).

So how is it that in 65 years of independence, the country is now finally ripe for revolution?

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 21 Jun 2011 04:22

harbans wrote:I hope this thread is preserved from 10 years from now. For those that challenged and argued against me and Somnath Ji here. Why 10 years? Is because things will become clearer to them, possibly at that time frame only.:

And these are exactly the kind of people that argued and held back liberalization for decades perpetuating the poverty, swiss bank accounts and eulogized Sanjay Gandhi, Chacha of Yuvraj.

Now these people want another 10 years. Echoing exactly what the politicians say.

When will the bridge be made ? Oh, wait a few years. We are a poor country. all in due course.

When will we get drinking water ? Oh, wait a few years. In 10 years, we will be a super power. Even the Americans say so.

When will we be able to give a fitting reply to our enemies on the border ? Oh, wait 10 years. 10% growth and in ten years our enemy will disintegrate by itself. We wouldnt have to lift a finger.

When will we get a decent life ? Oh, you want everything yesterday. We only recently got our independence. Britain and America started way back when. Wait 10 years.

This is all I ever hear from the politicians. Wait 10 years. Wait ten years, so that they can stuff their bank accounts, safes and even their rooms full of cash, from floor to ceiling, and then, they will throw you some crumbs.

Tragedy is, 10 years down the road, all these crooks will be on the Riviera or the Swiss Alps, and the promised crumbs will be nowhere to be found. You will then have a new set of crooks here, saying what ? You guessed it..........give us 10 years.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 21 Jun 2011 04:27

@VivS: "Corruption may have increased absolute size, but relative to the larger economy its been steady or decreasing." Moral relativism is very attractive. Measured in GDP terms, any cancer can be justified or rationalized.

Nepotism is a form of corruption that is in league of its own: Think Hosni Mubarak; Tunisia; KSA; Yemen; Syria; Pahlevi Iran; and all the others who more subtly fostered 'dynasties'.

The essence of democracy is to do away with the privilege of birth. If a system does not permit the rise of a meritocracy, then it must be changed.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 21 Jun 2011 05:56

Cosmo_R wrote:Nepotism is a form of corruption that is in league of its own: Think Hosni Mubarak; Tunisia; KSA; Yemen; Syria; Pahlevi Iran; and all the others who more subtly fostered 'dynasties'.

Quite unfair, this comparison..None of these countries have/had a functioning Parliamentary democracy, with all its trappings (free press, independent judiciary, the works)...Dynastic politics is a matter of concern, but its not a "revolutionary" issue for India...

Separately, the morning papers are all full of convergence on the issues between Team Anna and the govt..
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/lokpa ... le/806498/

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 21 Jun 2011 06:08

somnath wrote:
Cosmo_R wrote:Nepotism is a form of corruption that is in league of its own: Think Hosni Mubarak; Tunisia; KSA; Yemen; Syria; Pahlevi Iran; and all the others who more subtly fostered 'dynasties'.
Quite unfair, this comparison..None of these countries have/had a functioning Parliamentary democracy, with all its trappings (free press, independent judiciary, the works)...Dynastic politics is a matter of concern, but its not a "revolutionary" issue for India...

Separately, the morning papers are all full of convergence on the issues between Team Anna and the govt..
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/lokpa ... le/806498/

Unfair indeed to those named in the article. Nothing is a 'revolutionary matter' until it is. That is how revolutions happen.

I am all for the Indian Spring

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 21 Jun 2011 06:14

BTW, one "externality" which isnt so edifying thas been the absolute "exposure" of the Ramdev shenanigan...It hasnt been edifying not because BR has been marginalised (and shown up to be what a lot of people, myself included thought he was), but because his case becomes a motif for the govt to use for a subsequent attempt at non-politial mobilisations...

Hopefully the relative "success" of the Anna Hazare team will mitigate the damage ...

Regardless of what the pop sociological commentary (as well as the credibly sociological ones - I was surprised at Shiv Vishwanathan's intervention in the debate) says, BR's efforts were no different from a typical politician low on depth and high on rhetoric, with a measure of public support...Reminds me of efforts like Devi Lal's (in)famous farmer rally in Delhi, ostensibly to argue for "farmer rights", but really to pose tough questions to VP Singh (who Devi Lal considerd to be a usurper to the PM throne)..As soon as VP Singh responded with Mandal, the "farmer rights" agitprop disappeared...To be honest, Devi Lal had a better grasp of at least some ground realities confronting farmers than BR has on any of the issues he is talking about...

I would say, good riddance...Serious people can focus on the real tasks on hand, and the media can be suitably used for that...

Cosmo_R wrote:I am all for the Indian Spring

Well, daresay you might have to wait till qayamat for that, and khuda karein, ki qayamat na ho!

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 21 Jun 2011 06:26

somnath wrote:
SwamyG wrote:Guptas and Maurayas? Well make things look cool people will follow it, it does not matter if it is thousand years old wisdom. Wisdom needs to be package rightly
And who should do it? The govt? They cant package even condoms attractively This is a generation that wants IPAD2 today, and not IPAD1.......Lessons on dharmic facets of the Gupta age, in front of IPAD2? No chance, IMO....

The battle against corruption has a bit more urgency to it than hoping for moral "regenration" of a specific type, dont you think?

Dharma has its root in the word Dhr - meaning that which upholds or that sustains. So let us take your example of iPad2.

If a family without the required disposable income to buy the expensive iPad2 still wants it (which in itself is a problem), then it has the following options:
1. Saves enough money to buy it. Meanwhile it has to prioritize its other wants and needs.
2. Steals money (or commits illegal or unethical ways to earn) to buy the product.
3. Steals the iPad.
4. Takes a loan - formal(credit card ityadi) and informal (from friends and family)

#1 option is the best option and it is dharmic, because it has the most probable to keep the family in financial freedom and with less economic worries. #4 is lesser in terms of dharmic, because depending on their other financial burden it could break the family. #2 and #3 are quite unhealthy for the family and the society - hence adharmic. So far with me? Now why the fvck do you drag Guptas and Maurayas, eh? You think dharma is some wisdom that suits only the times of 2000 years ago, eh?

I know you hang out in the two economic dhaagas, and you probably have read lots of kitabs on the subject. So I assume you are familiar with the term of "Externalities". What do you think it is when a leather tannery starts its operation in a town, and ends up contaminating the waters sources near it and never bothers to compensate to the town. Do you think it is right (dharmic) or wrong (adharmic). Say, they pay money to some people, and maybe the whole town yet continue to pollute the water sources. In the long term what is going to happen? One reason in the times of Guptas and Maurayas why some jobs were kept far from the living areas.

If like you point out if we don't have time for dharma, then it just means we go on life support. Nah, life won't end in 2012 (unless you believe the American version of Mayan prophecy), but we will continue make life more miserable to ourselves and children's future.

Sometimes it does look bleak, when people like you have not understood it.

And seriously why do you expect Government to do it? Or maybe you do believe Kautilya's policies more than me

Call it societal reform, spiritual or mass awakening, evolution of the country/people, change in people's behavior are not necessarily government's function. It comes from the people for the people. It can come from you, or me, or Ramdev.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 21 Jun 2011 06:31

sorry if already posted:

Must watch: interview with Vishwa Bandhu Gupta, Former Tax Commissioner

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 21 Jun 2011 07:13

Muppalla wrote:sorry if already posted:

Must watch: interview with Vishwa Bandhu Gupta, Former Tax Commissioner

Mupulla,

I did'nt know this guy from Adam, but I felt like he had read my mind and used his voice to speak my words.

You still believe after watching this video that

1) Corruption is not as big of a problem as I proclaim it to be

or

2) That it can be tackled even in 10,000 years, leave aside 10 years, within the current system

or

3) That there is anything worth redeeming left in the current system

or

4) That there is any other choice than the "set aside" of the current system.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 21 Jun 2011 07:43

SwamyG, I dont have any problem with your "dharma" hypothesis, I am only trying to put in context the relevance vis a vis the issue that is germane, ie, measures to tackle corruption....

SwamyG wrote:Do you think it is right (dharmic) or wrong (adharmic). Say, they pay money to some people, and maybe the whole town yet continue to pollute the water sources. In the long term what is going to happen? One reason in the times of Guptas and Maurayas why some jobs were kept far from the living areas

The socio-political (and socio-economic) praxis of societies, communities, countries change over time...In the Gupta Age, it might have been possible to set up tanneries 100 km away, it simply isnt possible today...Does it mean that we dont setup tanneries anymore? No, it only means that people adjust to perhaps a lower-than-Himalayan/Evian quality water, but one that is still good enough for humans, while trying technological fixes to improve it even more...And, and, the "successful" cases have the right policies/structures in place to ensure that the standards of water laid down are adhered to by the tanneries..And such efforts spawn R&D in cleantech, develops industrial clusters (rather than standalone plants) and so on...So the network externalities are different from what would be the case in the Mauryan age...

In short, values change, get modified...So trying to bring back certain "valued" values (!), well might be a laudable objective for some people, and all power to them..But their utility in tackling problems of the times? Limited...

Just as the option of having tanneries 100 km away isnt there anymore, the option of trying to remodel the thought processes of a society in order to tackle a problem today isnt a viable one...All those guys doing agitprop against corruption, do you think they have patience for the society to change along "dharmic" lines before corruption is tackled? No, they want results here and now...Solutions therefore need to be those that adress the issue here and now..

JMT and all that...

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 21 Jun 2011 07:53

nataraja wrote:So, if you have not yet reached your threshhold of pain tolerance, enough to revolt, can you list what factors have to be present for you to cross that threshhold ? What conditions have to exist for you personally to cross that rubicon.

It is a tautology (to borrow a favorite phrase from another forum-er) that given extreme circumstances - everybody has a threshold beyond which a revolution is justified.

However - First point to remember is that authoritarian and despotic systems of governance are absolutely not the solution..and bringing in comparison to Paki / Chinese forms of government is the easiest way to kill any hope of support you will get not only on this forum but anywhere in India.

Second point is that any system needs to be pro-growth and allow for flowering of India's natural entrepreneurship talent.

What can be cause for revolution is continued subversion of true liberal governance in India. And the aim of any such revolution would be to eliminate the corruption that goes against the spirit of liberalism in Indian democracy (such as continued dynasticism, money-power in elections, growth of exclusivist ideologies), and bring back true liberal governance.

The specific criteria can differ. For me and for most globalized Indians who have an interest in India holding its own in the field of democracy - a 5th member of the Royal Clan getting formalized is a fundamental subversion of Indian democracy. For the more backward, feudalistic elements - the tubelights turn on only after several more generations. For all such people - it is up to you to ensure that the butts are kicked in appropriate Indian democratic fashion - until they see sense.