The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

[Dhiman]

In India barely 3 % of the population pays income tax (so I guess most of India is certainly not 'stupid' enough to pay taxes) - yatha praja, tatha raja Hence we have an over reliance on indirect taxes, like taxes on fuel.

This issue really does not interest me at least for now, but I thought it would be useful to point out that 60 to 70% of people in India live on less than Rs 100 a day. Surely you don't expect to bring them into the income tax bracket?

But more importantly about lok-pal. You claim lok-pal would have 'punished' Raja and Barkha. AFAIK - Raja is in jail and awaiting a trial, without any lokpal. Is Lok-pal about taking over the role of the judiciary?

LokPal or not, the core problem here is that government is unwilling and unable to govern in the best interests of the people, not that there is a lack of policy and laws that the government can use to prosecute the corrupt.

But, please explain - for what crime would Barkha be punished by the lok-pal?

How about "Sedition"? That would put both Bharka and Radia in Jail for life or at the very least "Abetting a crime" is a crime as well. One just has to prove that they "played a role" in the conspiracy in some way or "facilitated at outcome" in some way. Also, please note that ignorance (i.e "I didn't know I was part of a conspiracy to subvert the foundations of democracy in this country and rob the people of billions") is not a defense.

Do you honestly think that a state which was operating in the best interest of the masses would have let these people have a good nights sleep?. At the very least, if they could not be convicted, they would have been ostracized, their career destroyed along with their financial health.

What we are seeing instead is government trying to destroy Ramdev by launching all sorts of investigations against him - a protestor arguing for rights of common people.

[Raghavendra]

Well I'm too tired to explain that a tax proportion of 52% in petrol is about the average fuel tax globally (tax of 30% that India imposes on disel is actually lower than the global average).

Taxes on diesel are high and not low. This high tax encourages smuggling and exposing this crime lead to death of journalist J Dey http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1108870

All this is known and posted but people like you choose to ignore this crime while singing praise of this high tax which is too low for you. I guess those who feel this is low should be double taxed so they can feel happy about paying the correct amount of tax.

Countries like Germany, Spain and France impose a 66% tax on fuel despite a large proportion of their population actually paying income tax.

Yawn they are shifting their economy to renewable resources and therefore impose high taxes on non-renewables like petroleum fuels, this is well known

In India barely 3 % of the population pays income tax

Another Yawn, road tax is imposed without proper roads, water tax is levied without 24X7 supply, I can go on listing taxes that are imposed without consumerate public service being provided. If sarkar wants money from taxes, first it should bring back the black money stored in swiss banks and utilise it for improvement of public services and then give this silly lecture on income tax.

(so I guess most of India is certainly not 'stupid' enough to pay taxes) - yatha praja, tatha raja Hence we have an over reliance on indirect taxes, like taxes on fuel.

Another blame the population becoz the government is corrupt, how about for once blaming people who are corrupt instead the public which is victim of this corruption.

I know it is easy to ask for GOI to end subsidy - I would like to see any party manifesto which actually commits to removing fuel, fertiliser and electricity subsidies (including the subsidy of not paying income tax on agricultural income).

Open your party and print your manifesto, I will support, phoolon ki maal is ready for our netaji

However, this is for discussion with the more erudite members of the forum - not folks whose primary methodology of a debate is ROFL

Mister erudite its ROTFL not ROFL

But more importantly about lok-pal. You claim lok-pal would have 'punished' Raja and Barkha. AFAIK - Raja is in jail and awaiting a trial, without any lokpal.

We have seen what happened with CBI investigations in Bofors case, havent we? despite evidence of corruption sonia is free and not in jail chaakipeesing

Is Lok-pal about taking over the role of the judiciary?

No

But, please explain - for what crime would Barkha be punished by the lok-pal? Being a 'dalal' might be distasteful, but is it illegal?

Policy decisions must be made within cabinet meetings and oath of secrecy which every minister takes while taking office which says 'no party will be favoured' must be respected. Since barkha dutt was part of the conspiracy to favour certain parties she is criminally liable along with A.Raja.

That Media sleeps with politicians was well known to most astute followers. This time people got it on tape. The only ones who were whining about betrayal are the ones who naively believe that mainstream media is only about getting 'facts' to the people.

That statement shows honesty means nothing for you, if you see some crime being committed you will rather go and help the criminal instead of the victim, you support the corrupt with these wishy washy statements. "yes they are corrupt, everyone knows it, so it must be OK". For most people that is NOT OK and people are fighting to change it with greater accountability by using the LokPal. I see you have no interest in fighting the corrupt but have an agenda to shield them, now that your agenda is exposed it will be easier for people to see your real face.

[somnath]

How about "Sedition"? That would put both Bharka and Radia in Jail for life or at the very least "Abetting a crime" is a crime as well

dont want to derail the thread, but sedition?! Burkha Dutt was captured promising to lobby on behalf of politicians for cabinet posts..That might be unprofessional for a journo, distasteful as well, but not a crime...

anyways, Barkha Dutt is hardly material to this discussion...

[arnab]

LokPal or not, the core problem here is that government is unwilling and unable to govern in the best interests of the people, not that there is a lack of policy and laws that the government can use to prosecute the corrupt.

How about "Sedition"? That would put both Bharka and Radia in Jail for life or at the very least "Abetting a crime" is a crime as well. One just has to prove that they "played a role" in the conspiracy in some way or "facilitated at outcome" in some way. Also, please note that ignorance (i.e "I didn't know I was part of a conspiracy to subvert the foundations of democracy in this country and rob the people of billions") is not a defense.

Do you honestly think that a state which was operating in the best interest of the masses would have let these people have a good nights sleep?

@ Somnath - point taken but the whole rub in the lok-pal debate is that there is no inbuilt mechanism to ensure that this institution would honestly function in the best interest of the indian people. Yet we are willing to give this body unlimited powers.

@ Dhiman - True. Even if you ignore the bottom 20 % (200 million people) or even the bottom 60% (btw average Rs 100 per person a day - translates into Rs 15,000 a month for a household of 5). Thre are still 400 million people or 100 million households. Yet we have less than 25 million income tax payers?

Sir 'sedition' is a serious charge and not to be imposed lightly. If one is advocating insurrection against the govt - even Ramdev can theoretically be charged with sedition. And IMO from what I have read, Barkha was a conduit for exchanges between DMK and INC. So I'm not sure she was guilty of a 'crime' other than 'breach of faith' regarding independence of the media.

FWIW, No I do not believe the govt was operating in the interest of its citizens, however my issue is more about whether adding another institution (lok-pal) would help in a cleaner governance or would it act as aconduit for sweeping away crimes in the guise of an independent institution.

[arnab]

Taxes on diesel are high and not low. This high tax encourages smuggling and exposing this crime lead to death of journalist J Dey http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1108870

All this is known and posted but people like you choose to ignore this crime while singing praise of this high tax which is too low for you. I guess those who feel this is low should be double taxed so they can feel happy about paying the correct amount of tax.


Yawn they are shifting their economy to renewable resources and therefore impose high taxes on non-renewables like petroleum fuels, this is well known


]
Another Yawn, road tax is imposed without proper roads, water tax is levied without 24X7 supply, I can go on listing taxes that are imposed without consumerate public service being provided. If sarkar wants money from taxes, first it should bring back the black money stored in swiss banks and utilise it for improvement of public services and then give this silly lecture on income tax.


[Another blame the population becoz the government is corrupt, how about for once blaming people who are corrupt instead the public which is victim of this corruption.


We have seen what happened with CBI investigations in Bofors case, havent we? despite evidence of corruption sonia is free and not in jail chaakipeesing

I see you have no interest in fighting the corrupt but have an agenda to shield them, now that your agenda is exposed it will be easier for people to see your real face.

Boss it is tiresome to see motherhood statements about 'honesty' and 'piety' in governance and splitting hairs on ROFL vs ROTFL You need taxes to run an economy. Taxes are not a quid pro quo for services. Bringing money from swiss banks is the kind of silliness that does not deserve comment. What do you mean you will 'vote for a party' with a manifesto for doing away subsidies? Is your vote going to get the party to form a government? Do you understand political economy at all?

Taxes on diesel are high?!! Diesel is subsidised in India. The tax component is 30% compared to a global average of 46 %. And unless germany, spain and france are building solar powered cars, not sure how a 66 % tax on fuel is helping them focus on renewables. Theoretically even India is focusing on non-polluting forms of energy (as per 12th FY plan) - so one can make a case for this 'argument' in India as well. Add to this 3% tax paying folks of india - and a 'deewar' type statement that pahele swiss money leke aao, then we will pay taxes !! Boss - form a party - get money from swiss bank - you will get my vote

You take BR discussions way to seriously - most of it is just an exchange of ideas. It really amounts to nothing in the real world. So not sure how 'exposing' my face and your intelligence will benefit anyone Good luck to your 'fighting corruption' on internet forums. But this sort of 'dil chahata hai' statements are of no interest to me. I want something that works

[Dhiman]

Sir 'sedition' is a serious charge and not to be imposed lightly. If one is advocating insurrection against the govt - even Ramdev can theoretically be charged with sedition. And IMO from what I have read, Barkha was a conduit for exchanges between DMK and INC. So I'm not sure she was guilty of a 'crime' other than 'breach of faith' regarding independence of the media.

My point point Sir is that, guilty or not, a government that was operating in the best interests of the constitution of this country and its people would not have allowed these jokers to make a mockery of constitution of this country while defrauding the people of billions. If not "Sedition" or "Abetting a crime", If it is not the press club that would have hounded the living daylights out of these people and set an example. If not the press club, then the IT department, or the ED, or the CBI, or the local police.

In direct contradiction to that, what we seeing is a state going after Ramdev by violently breaking up a peaceful protest and by unleashing the IT dogs on his workings - a person, who irrespective of his credentials and methodology was operating and aspiring for the rights of common people in this country.

FWIW, No I do not believe the govt was operating in the interest of its citizens, however my issue is more about whether adding another institution (lok-pal) would help in a cleaner governance or would it act as aconduit for sweeping away crimes in the guise of an independent institution.

The core problem here is that of an inability and unwillingness to provide "good governance". LokPal is on paper only. If and when it comes into existence it remains to be seen whether it would be a mechanism to provide good governance or just another failed bureaucracy to waste public money.

If LokPal bill is passed, a massive bureaucracy will come up. Their intial job will be to find a building for office space, hire people, set up internal rules and procedure and other such bureaucratic issues. As far as I can see, it will take at least 3 years just to get the LokPal started in any decent form. After that, given the experience of governance that has been provided in past, you can literally toss a coin to find out whether Lokpal would be another waste of public money or an effective organization.

What is missing here is not LokPal, but a motivation and will to provide good governance

[KLNMurthy]

...
the Lokpal members can be from academia, and members of "civil society" like Teesta Setalvad. she is not officially affiliated with any political party. and the language used in Lokpal is nowhere near specific enough or well defined to prevent misuse of vague terms. this is a very serious concern. even ex-IIT's like Praful Bidwai can be nominated b/c they are "officially" not associated with any political party. the word "association" has to be very specifically defined. otherwise, Lokpal will become a tyrannical body which specifically targets certain sections.

Actually one candidate who would be perfectly suited under the Jan Lok Pal is not so much Teesta S. as Arundhati Roy, everybody's favorite reincarnation of Mrs. Ceaucescu. She has the passionate track record of attacking corruption (which is to say, scolding the entire indian population except herself, her friends, naxalites & their frontpeople), and is unimpeachable, presumably, because no one would dare impeach her and risk a zillion-page attack of precious cleverness.

Following the gold standard set by her, all the other subsequent candidates would be judged on the basis of how many pages of la Roy's spoutings they can recite with their eyes shut.

If you think I am just being satirical, you are probably too young to have lived through the Emergency.

[harbans]

For those on ROFL and ROTFL..ROFL is common usage.

ROFL

ROFL is an internet accronmym for Rolling On Floor Laughing, and like all things internet it has adapted to nerd culture and has taken on new real-life use, though usually in a satirical way.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=rofl

point taken but the whole rub in the lok-pal debate is that there is no inbuilt mechanism to ensure that this institution would honestly function in the best interest of the indian people. Yet we are willing to give this body unlimited powers.

Arnab Ji, i have been mentioning this last few days in different posts and articles. That the LPB is being positioned as a watch dog organization. Not one that will push for needed policy change across ministries that will actually reduce corruption. Couple of articles posted too have been saying that of late. So it's good to be a watch dog, but it's of core importance to push for reforms that will reduce or eliminate the soprt of scams that are becoming commonplace.

[Raghavendra]

Boss it is tiresome to see motherhood statements about 'honesty' and 'piety' in governance and splitting hairs on ROFL vs ROTFL

Thanks for once again saying you dislike honesty and support corruption, Your opposition to ramdev and anna hazare for trying to reintroduce honesty and piety in public politics stems from this deep rooted hatred of clean politics.

You need taxes to run an economy. Taxes are not a quid pro quo for services.

These are not taxes they are plain extortion. I am under no obligation to provide money to corrupt sonia and her party in the form of 'taxes' to keep her extortion economy running.

Bringing money from swiss banks is the kind of silliness that does not deserve comment.

Translated : You know these crores of money can be used for welfare of people but afraid to comment and now running away to avoid embarrassment

What do you mean you will 'vote for a party' with a manifesto for doing away subsidies? Is your vote going to get the party to form a government?

Yes why not, you are the change that we desire

Do you understand political economy at all?

I understand it better than you, who calls 'extortion' as taxes.

And unless germany, spain and france are building solar powered cars, not sure how a 66 % tax on fuel is helping them focus on renewables.

Increase the price of non-renewables so that public moves towards renewables sources, this is elementary

Theoretically even India is focusing on non-polluting forms of energy (as per 12th FY plan) - so one can make a case for this 'argument' in India as well.

Big difference between theory and practise. Congress promised clean government[theory], it runs one of the most corrupt government with sonia involved in bofors scam and manmohan in coal scam [practise]

Add to this 3% tax paying folks of india - and a 'deewar' type statement that pahele swiss money leke aao, then we will pay taxes !! Boss - form a party - get money from swiss bank - you will get my vote

Ramdev and Anna hazare are already doing, no need of another party, if you support bringing back money support them

You take BR discussions way to seriously - most of it is just an exchange of ideas. It really amounts to nothing in the real world. So not sure how 'exposing' my face and your intelligence will benefit anyone Good luck to your 'fighting corruption' on internet forums. But this sort of 'dil chahata hai' statements are of no interest to me. I want something that works

You take BR discussions way to non seriously - most of it is history in making. It really amounts to very much in the real world.

So not sure how 'exposing' my face and your intelligence will benefit anyone

To understand that you need intelligence

Good luck to your 'fighting corruption' on internet forums.

Bad luck to you for supporting corrupt on internet forums

But this sort of 'dil chahata hai' statements are of no interest to me. I want something that works

Ramdev and Anna's campaign against corruption is working, you are being shuturmurg by not seeing it

[Dhiman]

That the LPB is being positioned as a watch dog organization. Not one that will push for needed policy change across ministries that will actually reduce corruption. Couple of articles posted too have been saying that of late.

But Sir, where is the motivation for pushing for "needed policy change across the ministries" to actually reduce corruption going to come from?

[arnab]

Arnab Ji, i have been mentioning this last few days in different posts and articles. That the LPB is being positioned as a watch dog organization. Not one that will push for needed policy change across ministries that will actually reduce corruption. Couple of articles posted too have been saying that of late. So it's good to be a watch dog, but it's of core importance to push for reforms that will reduce or eliminate the soprt of scams that are becoming commonplace.

Yes and the fear is that it will be a toothless one like the CVC. So there will be an additional level of unaccountable bureaucracy to support without any change to ground reality. We need less and more effective bureaucracy not another level of paper pushers.

And some folks think messiahs like Hazare and Ramdev PBUH will protect them from corruption

[harbans]

where is the motivation for pushing for "needed policy change across the ministries" to actually reduce corruption going to come from?

Dhiman Ji, thats a good question. I tried answering that in the context of the formation of the LPB committee itself. Fact is if the issue/ way of fighting corruption was clear even amongst the Civil society the LPB would reflect 2 channels:

1. Watchdog capability.
2. Recommendation committee on much needed reform and identification of laws and present policies that attract corrupt politicians to make money.

The 2nd part has been a process of dismantling the license Raj and the UPA has done a poor job. Ironically the most stubborn interests against further dismantling and the reform process have been upright members of the socialist left. These people can be found across all parties. They opposed even the most basic reforms 2 decades back. The ironic part is some of the most vocal 'anti-corruption' folks belong to this spectrum.

That's why they focus on status quo in the reform process. (That will usher policies and reforms to curb corruption) and focus more on the watch dog bit.

[somnath]

@ Somnath - point taken but the whole rub in the lok-pal debate is that there is no inbuilt mechanism to ensure that this institution would honestly function in the best interest of the indian people. Yet we are willing to give this body unlimited powers

Not sure I understand this line of thought...What is the "in built mechanism" that gets RBI to act in the best inetrests of Indians? Or the Election Commission? You need to set up the institution, empower it with the right (legal and infrastructural) tools, set out a specific mandate...If it doesnt work, we need to se what went wrong...

On the question of "unlimited powers", it is a delicate balancing act, and a valid concern...But the format in which the bill is today (ver 2.3 - posted earlier), LokPal is basically designed as an investigative body that

1. Does not report to the political executive for day-to-day functions,
2. Does not need sanctions to prosecute public servants...
3. Has powers to recommend penalties (in case the "case" does not need a court prosecution)...

Not much unlike what a CVC or CBI should have been ideally, but isnt...

BTW, I would keep off this discussion on diesel taxes et al - its not adding much to the debate..

finally...

You take BR discussions way to seriously - most of it is just an exchange of ideas. It really amounts to nothing in the real world

+1, glad to see someone else having the same view!

[harbans]

What is the "in built mechanism" that gets RBI to act in the best inetrests of Indians? Or the Election Commission? You need to set up the institution, empower it with the right (legal and infrastructural) tools, set out a specific mandate.

Somnath Ji, we know there are intended reforms all pending. The push for reform did'nt come from a mass movement for it. It was imperative (back to the wall kind of scenario) that's why it occurred. At every step the left socialist has stalled reform and yelled same time loudest against corruption.

The dilemna is that without the necessary policy reform, the major and real steps to curb corruption cannot be taken. And some of the hardest and loudest anti -corruption activists belong to this group (the left socialist). I've been trying to focus on this last few pages. But the S to N ratio here..lesser said.

[Dhiman]

where is the motivation for pushing for "needed policy change across the ministries" to actually reduce corruption going to come from?

...

Harbansji, No offense intended, but it seems like you are reading a government report to me or perhaps I didn't ask the question properly.

My question is very simple: who or what is going to or has the ability to motivate the government to reform itself?

[amit]

That is the wrong question. Any assertion that the machines are not rigged is pure blind faith.

The real issues are whether the machines are transparent and verifiable (absolutely not), whether there have been suspicious "malfunctions" (plenty), and whether Netas would love to rig them (of course).

+1. Wow. Bears repetition only. Thanks for articulating this well, sir.

(OT alert, please bear with me)

Wow indeed.

I know that as conspiracy theories go, the idea of a hyper power/authority remotely rigging voting machines to win un-winnable elections while (perhaps) eating pasta, is way up the ladder on BRF.

However, I do note the three points:

1) (Are they) transparent and verifiable;
2) Suspicious malfunctions; and
3) Netas would love to rig them.

Are true all across India. Now I really wonder how for example, Jayalalitha, ousted DMK or Nitish Kumar ensured the almost complete demise of the INC in Bihar, or how NM is going strong in Gujarat. And how the INC is practically non-existent in the famous Cow belt states of UP and MP.

I wonder, do they use different voting machines in those states? Or do we conclude: "Any assertion that the machines are not rigged is pure blind faith."

Which would mean all these parties/netas are in power due to rigged voting machines?

I don't think any political party which had the power to "rig" voting machines in a significant enough manner to influence elections over a large area/state would be content in getting a drubbing during elections in a huge swath of the country.

It's amusing, but I note that when opposition parties (like the recent case of AIADMK or earlier in Bihar) storm to power, the cacophony about manipulated voting machines influencing election results runs strangely silent.

However, I do note this is OT on this thread. Anyone who'd like to discuss this further please take the discussion to the relevant thread in the Eco Forum. Provided I have the time, I'll be happy to discuss this (and other) "theories".

Cheers!

[arnab]

Not sure I understand this line of thought...What is the "in built mechanism" that gets RBI to act in the best inetrests of Indians? Or the Election Commission? You need to set up the institution, empower it with the right (legal and infrastructural) tools, set out a specific mandate...If it doesnt work, we need to se what went wrong...

On the question of "unlimited powers", it is a delicate balancing act, and a valid concern...But the format in which the bill is today (ver 2.3 - posted earlier), LokPal is basically designed as an investigative body that

1. Does not report to the political executive for day-to-day functions,
2. Does not need sanctions to prosecute public servants...
3. Has powers to recommend penalties (in case the "case" does not need a court prosecution)...

Not much unlike what a CVC or CBI should have been ideally, but isnt...

In the case of the RBI - partly it is the technical nature of the job. Not too many opportunities for direct interaction with the public. Even then it received a fair amount of flak for not doing enough during the Harshad Mehta scam days. Second, over time there has been a steady liberalisation of the banking sector with RBI only taking broad off-sight supervisory role.

In the conduct of monetary policy, IMO in India the monetary policy is residual to the fiscal policy. Even here, there is a direct conflict of interest in its role as a banker to government (issues govt bonds) and as a conductor of monetary policy for the country.

the other reason for its success is that it is a deeply conservative institution - it does not trust activities beyond the 'core banking'. I remember one Governor claiming - 'If banks can cheat, they will' You work better if you start with the assumption that everyone else is corrupt

The fact that the Central Office is in Mumbai away from Delhi helps I guess.

The problem with the ministries is that the bureaucracy has been given a lot of power and very little political oversight. Often the 'oversight' is compromised due to ministers bringing in their own OSDs who work as mini-Secretaries - whose role is to enrich themselves and the minister at the cost of public policy.

One way must be to stop institutional rot - by removing a large section of regulatory powers of a bureaucrat to a 'residual' nature I presume. As Harbans has noted - delicensing of large sections of the economy. It is happenning but not fast enough.

One other way of reform is to ensure Ministries to report on an 'outcomes' based framework. To see whether they are providing value for money to the public. Every Ministry must be forced to make 'efficiency gains' in their performance as determined by the Government and it must be published as part of the budget document.

[harbans]

Harbansji, No offense intended, but it seems like you are reading a government report to me or perhaps I didn't ask the question properly.

My question is very simple: who or what is going to or has the ability to motivate the government to reform itself?

Dhiman JI, first get it out of your head i have truck with any political party. If you are just knee jerk anti-INC you won't get a solution either on resolving corruption, because as has been consistently mentioned, the policies that are the root cause of corruption will stay manifested in the process of Governance, irrespective of which party is in power.

My question is very simple: who or what is going to or has the ability to motivate the government to reform itself?

Thats a question that i have been trying to attempt answers right from the beginning (1st post here rather), and you have just started to think about.

If you think it's the Civil society here, i have mentioned that it's positioning itself as a watchdog bureaucracy only as yet. It will have some success i am sure. But i have been on this now for some time, that if it is to be really effective, it must root out those policies in governance and also suggest push for reform across ministries and sectors.

The role of Watchdog plus pusher of reform is a potent combination.

The other way only i see, are these..

Elements within the parties doing their bit and slowly pushing reforms through. That's the Top-down movement. Happened in PVNRs time and been trodding gently and sometimes in spurts.

Lots of articles in Business magazines etc focus on reforms like Tax, GST etc. Growth itself pushes reform as a Govt with a lower growth now, possibly will be booted out. There are too many people invested in India's high growth development. They will lose financially if growth is slowed due to lack of reform, so that translates into pressure on the Govt to keep taking up reforms at some pace.

So basically in Bullet form the drivers of reform policy are/ can be:

1. LPB committee apart from acting watch dog is also a pusher.
2. Top down movement as has been happening through the 90's.
3. Business and media pressure on Govts.
4. People pressure due to Govt becoming unpopular due to slower growth.
5. Pressure to maintain high growth from public will maintain focus on reform. (bottom up pressure)
6. Disgust at anti-corruption driving policy changes.
7. Vote in a Govt that promises much needed reform.
8. The power to sack inefficient/ corrupt GOI employees who fail targets.

Feel free to add anything else. There could be more ways of pressuring Govt to do the needful and there are.

[somnath]

In the case of the RBI - partly it is the technical nature of the job. Not too many opportunities for direct interaction with the public

Ditto for the Ministry of Telecom, not too many direct public interactions (barring via the PSUs, who anyways were shafted by the 2G thing)...And in terms of making money, banking licenses can dwarf anything anyone has ever seen if it were to be attempmted!

One way must be to stop institutional rot - by removing a large section of regulatory powers of a bureaucrat to a 'residual' nature I presume. As Harbans has noted - delicensing of large sections of the economy. It is happenning but not fast enough

Which is correct, something I wrote a few pages back...But delicensing doesnt solve the problem..Unarguably, corruption in telecom is far higher today in a delicensed environment than it was pre 1993...In fact the challenge is to create institutions that can oversee a delicensed setup that requires partaking in natural (and national) resources..

One other way of reform is to ensure Ministries to report on an 'outcomes' based framework

Its being done..I had posted it in another context in the "Economy" thread...

But funamentally, it is about institutions...RBI has been built as one, EC is another...RBI is technically "under" the Finance Minister...But would it have been able to work properly if the statute made it obligatory for it to take every branch licensing decision past th FM? That was the problem with Telecom/TRAI..In criminal investogation against public servants today, the CBI/police needs to take govt sanction before prosecuting any govt servant...

Political "overisight" isnt the same as "political intereference"...Good regulatory institutions have the former, not the latter...

[somnath]

Latest versions of both drafts (Lokpal - govt, Jan Lokpal - Team AH) are now out...These will be presented to the Cabinet for clearance to be tabled in Parliament..

http://persmin.nic.in/Lokpal/DraftLokpalBill2011.pdf
http://persmin.nic.in/Lokpal/DraftJanLokpalBill.pdf

The Lokpal version seems much better drafted - presence of 5 lawyers has told on the quality! In comparison, the JanLokpal draft looks a bit amateurish...

But materially, its a good draft (lokpal)..Most loose ends have been tied up....

Interestingly, the "search committee" has been made optional with no definition of who should be in there (civil society et al - as I had predicted!)...

The selection committee too is more compact and feasible now...

the "investigation wing" under Lokpal is a bit unfortunate...They should have simply brought in the CBI..Now, Lokpal has to basically set up nothing but another mini CBI...No point really..

The major bit hanging out is the PM's coverage - investigation after he demits office is the worst of all solutions possible...I would stick my neck out that it will get modified in Parliament...

Net, net, a "CBI with some superficial judicial powers" - that is what this looks like..But good enough - everyone involved should be proud of the effort, once it gets passed in Parliament...

[Sanku]

where is the motivation for pushing for "needed policy change across the ministries" to actually reduce corruption going to come from?

Dhiman Ji, thats a good question. I tried answering that in the context of the formation of the LPB committee itself. Fact is if the issue/ way of fighting corruption was clear even amongst the Civil society the LPB would reflect 2 channels:

1. Watchdog capability.
2. Recommendation committee on much needed reform and identification of laws and present policies that attract corrupt politicians to make money.

The 2nd part has been a process of dismantling the license Raj and the UPA has done a poor job. .

Harbans-ji, that was a good post above, it appears that we are somewhat reaching a meeting of minds on the thread barring the usual suspects (by this time it is given which esteemed posters will come jumping out of the wood work in any random thread where the core intrests are being threatened )

However allow me to carry on the meaningful discussion further bypassing the apologist type stuff that we see. While being in agreement with you on the overall post, I would like to discuss 2 further.

I believe you err in having a realitvely narrow view of the "reforms" that are needed to destroy corruption. While I agree with you in your recommendations that having a decentralized system and other reforms are necessary to tackle corruption, but that is only a part of the "reform" story.

The other part of the reform story is to actually make laws like Baba Ramdev asked for, in the sense of going after black money havens and shutting down Mauritius type questionable round tripping routes. Yes, I agree it may in the short run effect the hot money driven growth but not real growth in terms of access of material benifiet per Indian and also not long term growth.

It also means a massive diversion of funds for Armed force CAPEX to Indian manufacturers and suchlike.

So in all we need to say openly that "business as usual is not an option any more" -- a re-imagining is needed if we need to get off the leeches and parasites on our body who get on in the name of growth.

[Neela]

the "investigation wing" under Lokpal is a bit unfortunate...They should have simply brought in the CBI..Now, Lokpal has to basically set up nothing but another mini CBI...No point really..
The major bit hanging out is the PM's coverage - investigation after he demits office is the worst of all solutions possible...I would stick my neck out that it will get modified in Parliament...
Net, net, a "CBI with some superficial judicial powers" - that is what this looks like..But good enough - everyone involved should be proud of the effort, once it gets passed in Parliament...

Feel the same.

[Pranav]

(OT alert, please bear with me)

Wow indeed.

I know that as conspiracy theories go, the idea of a hyper power/authority remotely rigging voting machines to win un-winnable elections while (perhaps) eating pasta, is way up the ladder on BRF.

Amit, you have not refuted anything I said in that long post of yours.

[harbans]

I believe you err in having a realitvely narrow view of the "reforms" that are needed to destroy corruption. While I agree with you in your recommendations that having a decentralized system and other reforms are necessary to tackle corruption, but that is only a part of the "reform" story.

Sanku Ji, glad that focus is coming in. But lets look at it this way. We have a large reservoir holding plenty of water and there are lots of place where leaks are occurring and water going into other reservoirs we have no control of as yet. What will be your priority as the Chief Engineer of the dam? Plug the leaks, right? Then lets look to ways claiming the water in other reservoirs as rightfully ours. I'm not saying that should not be done, all i am stressing on is the need to plug the leaks first. If we don't plug the leaks and get the water it won't help. The water will keep leaking maybe to other reservoirs where we have lesser influence to peddle back. May not be a perfect analogy, but i trust you'll understand.

[Sanku]

Lot of blatantly false statements thrown in casually in this post that have to be refuted, onerous though the task is (so whats new)

The Lokpal version seems much better drafted - presence of 5 lawyers has told on the quality! In comparison, the JanLokpal draft looks a bit amateurish...

Nearly every one even in DDM and MSM is of the opinion that JanLokpal is far more superior version. For example look at following

http://www.timesnow.tv/Debate-Where-doe ... 376595.cms

Clearly the govt version is a third rate diluted eyewash and humbug nonsense that no one with any sense supports. Even congress Shills like HT editor on the panel sidestep the questions but not support the govt.

But materially, its a good draft (lokpal)..Most loose ends have been tied up....

It is a good draft only to from the perspective of the very corrupt who now officially get a "super status" something they don't have.

Current Govt draft is WORSE than current systems.

Interestingly, the "search committee" has been made optional with no definition of who should be in there (civil society et al - as I had predicted!)...

Another falsification. The GOVT as expected is silent, but the team Anna is clear on the search committee, guess the briefing given to congress spokepeople was not accurate, even Salman Kurshid was saying the same when he was literally laughed out of the program.

The govt and its functionaries seem to have not done their home work properly here too.

The selection committee too is more compact and feasible now...

The selection committee is compact and feasible to allow for a lame duck and dead in water lokpal who will do nothing, considering that most of the Kangress version of Lokpal is to be chosen by serving ministers

Thankfully outside the narrow mindset of people motivated for personal gains no one buys this (with reference to debate I posted)

the "investigation wing" under Lokpal is a bit unfortunate...They should have simply brought in the CBI..Now, Lokpal has to basically set up nothing but another mini CBI...No point really..

I am amazed that give the entire pointless nature of Kangress Lokpal, this is even a issue. As per the govts selection process Quatrocchi would be the ideal lokpal, what difference does it make if CBI is in or out.

But it seems Kangress is taking no chances nevertheless to allow for even a modicum of sincerity in Lokpal.

The major bit hanging out is the PM's coverage - investigation after he demits office is the worst of all solutions possible...I would stick my neck out that it will get modified in Parliament...

I would stick my neck out and say we are heading for another cash for votes.

Net, net, a "CBI with some superficial judicial powers" - that is what this looks like..But good enough - everyone involved should be proud of the effort, once it gets passed in Parliament...

This is a piss poor effort, and that is being parliamentary. This is a fraud, a third rate attempt at trying to actually offer more protection to the corrupt by making a separate class.

[Sanku]

I believe you err in having a realitvely narrow view of the "reforms" that are needed to destroy corruption. While I agree with you in your recommendations that having a decentralized system and other reforms are necessary to tackle corruption, but that is only a part of the "reform" story.

Sanku Ji, glad that focus is coming in. But lets look at it this way. We have a large reservoir holding plenty of water and there are lots of place where leaks are occurring and water going into other reservoirs we have no control of as yet. What will be your priority as the Chief Engineer of the dam? Plug the leaks, right? Then lets look to ways claiming the water in other reservoirs as rightfully ours. I'm not saying that should not be done, all i am stressing on is the need to plug the leaks first. If we don't plug the leaks and get the water it won't help. The water will keep leaking maybe to other reservoirs where we have lesser influence to peddle back. May not be a perfect analogy, but i trust you'll understand.

Harbans-ji, nice post, I agree and disagree.

Bringing the black money home effort may not bring the money back immediately but definitely discourage those who think they can send it out and make merry.

Thus what you think as adding more water is actually a two-in-one benefit scheme, first its stems the leaks, and then returns the flow.

I hope that helped.

[somnath]

Amit, you have not refuted anything I said in that long post of yours

You know, the issue of EVMs is unrelated to this thread, but a string of the most honourable civil servants have deemed it to be a good system (including the incumbent CEC, SY Qureshi)..On the technical side, a committee chaired by Prof Indiresan certified its validity...

To be going on and on about how this is some super conspiracy is a bit, well, fallacious...But Amit's right, it should be discussed elsewhere..

[Sanku]

That is the wrong question. Any assertion that the machines are not rigged is pure blind faith.

The real issues are whether the machines are transparent and verifiable (absolutely not), whether there have been suspicious "malfunctions" (plenty), and whether Netas would love to rig them (of course).

Pranav, as a long standing opponent of your views on EVM rigging in the past, allow me to compliment you on a distinct maturing of your views and also of presenting them very well.

The key issue is "trust us we know" type of scam is fast going out of fashion, a transparent and verifiable mechanisms are absolutely the order of the day. As St Antony said, "some people are not ready for new transparency age" is true.

These old dinosaurs are on the wrong side of history, and its great to see that at least some people in the current hopeless compromised congress also are on the right side, they will play a important role in the resurrection of the INC if and when it is exorcised of the demons possessing it.

[Muppalla]

The key issue is "trust us we know" type of scam is fast going out of fashion, a transparent and verifiable mechanisms are absolutely the order of the day. As St Antony said, "some people are not ready for new transparency age" is true.

These old dinosaurs are on the wrong side of history, and its great to see that at least some people in the current hopeless compromised congress also are on the right side, they will play a important role in the resurrection of the INC if and when it is exorcised of the demons possessing it.

I don't think the old dinosaurs are on the wrong side of history. As I said earlier they have a method to their madness. I am also convinced that there is no use any Lokpal bills as I explained here

Now here is a realistic opinion poll. In my view, this is a very important poll that no one ventured in the past. This is the reason for blatant corruption and nothing else is the reason.

Congress perceived as synonymous with corruption, yet retains support of traditional base

among different voter segments, there are some segments that are still rooting for the Congress rule at the Centre despite finding the Congress to be corrupt. Less educated voters (58% to 33%), Muslims (75% to 17%), scheduled castes (55% to 33%), scheduled tribes (52% to 41%), and labourers (60% to 34%)—believe the Congress is better for governance at the Centre than the BJP. These traditional supporters of the Congress perhaps feel that they are better off and their interests are better protected by the Congress rule at the Centre.

At a katcha level, INC spends 90% of its money earned in bribing the above types and making sure 90% of such voters comes to polls while dividing the rest. As I said, its strategy to win with 15% of the voteshare of the elgible voters. In the past it just used to strategise on KHAM. The current strategy is to win with portions of HAM and that needs a lot of money.

All these laws are just waste and pulp. Even the Anna Hazare, BRD movements are only for the educated ones.

[Manishw]

^^ There is something deeper than that, the BJP is just filling the opposition space doing nothing.I am not a betting man but I guess both parties receive their marching orders from the same source.Anybody I know who votes, votes for the congress because of the TINA factor.

[Sanku]

These old dinosaurs are on the wrong side of history, and its great to see that at least some people in the current hopeless compromised congress also are on the right side, they will play a important role in the resurrection of the INC if and when it is exorcised of the demons possessing it.

I don't think the old dinosaurs are on the wrong side of history. As I said earlier they have a method to their madness. I am also convinced that there is no use any Lokpal bills as I explained here

Muppalla Saar, I am not talking about the next elections, or any elections, there are forces in the world greater than elections. Two years back a few of us were black balled for calling out the puppet for exactly what he was. Now 2 years down the line even the Mango admi goes thoo-thoo at the spineless wonder, with the last being the least of the glorious epithets bestowed on him in open space.

So have hope, laws of Karma are inexorable, they have their own mechanics.

I am not a betting man but I guess both parties receive their marching orders from the same source

RSS is so powerful?

Anybody I know who votes, votes for the congress because of the TINA factor.

No not actually not TINA, this is called inertia of the stupid slothful mind. The lack of alternatives is only in the socially engineered individual mental outlook.

Like lambs, they do not know of any other fate that be chopped up.

[Manishw]

^^ Sanku Ji with all due respects does the image of LKA hanging by his fingernails and the three four hanger's around him cause any enthusiasm in normal people.Would love to hear your view and in case if you have misunderstood I only want revival of Indic thought which I guess puts us on the same side basically.Corruption in all forms etc. are basically because of deracination.

[Sanku]

^^ Sanku Ji with all due respects does the image of LKA hanging by his fingernails and the three four hanger's around him cause any enthusiasm in normal people.Would love to hear your view and in case if you have misunderstood I only want revival of Indic thought which I guess puts us on the same side basically.Corruption in all forms etc. are basically because of deracination.

Manishw-ji; I was semi-serious, I guess my image some time makes me appear combative, some times playfulness is seen as fight.

I do not say that BJP is perfect, any number of issues can be enumerated however right now BJP and others should win simply because of TINA factor, the mainovadi party is a demon ripping India apart, any one, and I repeat any one would be better.

If people don't get this, there is very little hope, even if we had Sita Ma heading BJP each of these worthies (who think TINA for congress) would ask her to go through a personal agni pariksha 3 times in front of them before they would even consider that just perhaps INC is not the INC of 1930s.

The issue is in what Acharya calls "social engineering", its not a BJP vs Congress fight, its a Mainovadi vs Bharat fight.

I would hope that at least we on BRF don't mistake the depth of the issue.

[somnath]

Now here is a realistic opinion poll. In my view, this is a very important poll that no one ventured in the past. This is the reason for blatant corruption and nothing else is the reason.

Congress perceived as synonymous with corruption, yet retains support of traditional base

Given that the poll gave no explanation of methodology, who carried it out et al, how do you come to that conclusion?

If INC is the problem, solution is easy - vote them out!

BTW,

At a katcha level, INC spends 90% of its money earned in bribing the above types and making sure 90% of such voters comes to polls while dividing the rest. As I said, its strategy to win with 15% of the voteshare of the elgible voters

Isnt the job of any party in a democracy to deliver what its support constituents want? BTW, INC's voteshare in the last assembly election was 28-29%...

[nataraja]

^^ Sanku Ji with all due respects does the image of LKA hanging by his fingernails and the three four hanger's around him cause any enthusiasm in normal people.Would love to hear your view and in case if you have misunderstood I only want revival of Indic thought which I guess puts us on the same side basically.Corruption in all forms etc. are basically because of deracination.

Deracination occured because of corruption.

[Manishw]

^^ Sanku Ji with all due respects does the image of LKA hanging by his fingernails and the three four hanger's around him cause any enthusiasm in normal people.Would love to hear your view and in case if you have misunderstood I only want revival of Indic thought which I guess puts us on the same side basically.Corruption in all forms etc. are basically because of deracination.

Manishw-ji; I was semi-serious, I guess my image some time makes me appear combative, some times playfulness is seen as fight.

I do not say that BJP is perfect, any number of issues can be enumerated however right now BJP and others should win simply because of TINA factor, the mainovadi party is a demon ripping India apart, any one, and I repeat any one would be better.

If people don't get this, there is very little hope, even if we had Sita Ma heading BJP each of these worthies (who think TINA for congress) would ask her to go through a personal agni pariksha 3 times in front of them before they would even consider that just perhaps INC is not the INC of 1930s.

The issue is in what Acharya calls "social engineering", its not a BJP vs Congress fight, its a Mainovadi vs Bharat fight.

I would hope that at least we on BRF don't mistake the depth of the issue.

Sanku Ji , Agree with you on all counts and also understand what you mean but since the betrayal of BJP on Ram Mandir issue people nurse a wound.Even now after RD's effort the BJP has not capitalized even 10% of what it should have.The Old LKA is always there to remind of his famous green topis days and NaMo is bottled up in saurashtra.The future for hindu voice in the country seems to be very bleak.Even RD's fault was that he was wearing saffron and the issue that he raised was sidetracked.INC will always have its permanent votebanks and the mainovadis are changing the demographic profile of this country by illegal immigration and EJ activity, where is the Hindu voice filled with fire and brimstone??

[Manishw]

^^ Sanku Ji with all due respects does the image of LKA hanging by his fingernails and the three four hanger's around him cause any enthusiasm in normal people.Would love to hear your view and in case if you have misunderstood I only want revival of Indic thought which I guess puts us on the same side basically.Corruption in all forms etc. are basically because of deracination.

Deracination occured because of corruption.

I don't know the exact causes so would refrain from speculating but then the racination would not have been deep or had some flaws which should be corrected.Corruption in some form or the other will always be there.

[somnath]

While we discuss the Lokpal Bill, it is useful to benchmark it against similar setups elsewhere in the world...

Here is a good source of info on European countries...
http://www.anticorruption.bg/ombudsman/ ... le=default

And here is the Hong Kong ombudsman - HK is one of the "corruption" exemplars in Asia (along with Singapore)..
http://www.gov.hk/en/about/abouthk/fact ... s/icac.pdf
http://www.icac.org.hk/en/home/index.html

I did a glance through of the HK, UK and Danish Ombudsmen...

At first glance, in terms of appointment, coverage and "reporting lines", Lokpal (under the Lokpal draft) has more powers and "independence" than any of these Ombudsmen...So we have indeed, finally done a pretty good job of creating a "strong" ombudsman...

But it might be a good idea to actually go through the structures and enabling legislations in these countries to figure out if there are lessons that can be incorporated....

[ShauryaT]

No not actually not TINA, this is called inertia of the stupid slothful mind. The lack of alternatives is only in the socially engineered individual mental outlook.

Like lambs, they do not know of any other fate that be chopped up.

I could not agree more. The far probing question is: What does that mean for the structure of the polity of the country? Maybe the wrong thread to explore. But, I support these civil movements in part not because of Lok Pal and/or Corruption but behind these issues, lie a more fundamental question. These movements call our political structure into question. I am personally convinced the entire structure has to be uprooted - as the best way forward. This uprooting will not come from those vested in the current political structure.

[Manishw]

But, I support these civil movements in part not because of Lok Pal and/or Corruption but behind these issues, lie a more fundamental question. These movements call our political structure into question. I am personally convinced the entire structure has to be uprooted - as the best way forward. This uprooting will not come from those vested in the current political structure.

+1