The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

[Chinmayanand]

Definitely following anyone is out of question for me personally.If I do follow, it is the Gita. I agree about the danger which Sanku points at, it is hidden in the dark planning that goes on constantly in some devilish minds, who are always trying to force their views,and subdue the views of the general public.I also agree with Nataraja in "we deserve a good leadership"and we definitely should get a honest, strong,uncorrupted leadership .On a positive note,lets pray that the truth emerges out of all this that has shaken the country.Its been a series of events apparently unconnected, but the general direction is seen clearly - a cliff - darkness looms on the other side - to jump or not to jump.Peace to India, Indians and to all people seeking light, truth and knowledge.

Naa ji naa !!! First , we need an uncorrupted voter. The leadership will follow. We have casteist and communal politics because the voter is such. The voter is asking for desi daaru or videsi sharaab or 100 rupees per vote. Unless, the voter is pious , there is no hope.

[nataraja]

Therefore, forgive me, but I will not lower my expectations and keep holding all of us Indians including our leadership to very high standards.

Sure please offer two table spoons of ghee from my time next time as you sit around and pray for Lord Kalki to come and rescue us.

You will have better luck in something actually happening than the current line of thought.

Factor that in next time you do deep soul searching and self criticism, that your type of thinking may be actually doing more harm than good. Cheerio, toot, toot...

Expecting a clean government will do more harm than good ?

Spoken like a true Congressman.

[nataraja]

Therefore, forgive me, but I will not lower my expectations and keep holding all of us Indians including our leadership to very high standards.

Sure please offer two table spoons of ghee from my time next time as you sit around and pray for Lord Kalki to come and rescue us.

You will have better luck in something actually happening than the current line of thought.

Factor that in next time you do deep soul searching and self criticism, that your type of thinking may be actually doing more harm than good. Cheerio, toot, toot...

For those like Sanku, who think expecting good governance is like "expecting kalki to come to our rescue", I have only two words for you.

"Narendra Modi".

Modi is a person, not God, and cetainly does'nt look like Kalki to me. Because he is a person , he may be flawed too, but I will settle in my lifetime for his level of good governance. My kids can aspire to go even better.

[Manishw]

^ Amen, but we will be expected to see his photo in some obscure Gujrati paper and meanwhile look at LKA and his pack of hanger's on who for the past ten years or more have indulged in corruption and have only the excuse that we are less corrupt than the INC(though the truth may be totally different ) and having sold the hindus and their pride down the drain will suddenly materialize wearing green caps at time of elections and expect people to vote for them.IMO they are just sidekicks for the INC and a convenient strawmen who always get their fair share in all this corruption booty/mess.
Nobody has forgotten their vulgar display of wealth ala promod mahajan and the Hubris they displaced going as far as saying(by the sidekick venkiah naidu) that they are the new congress apart from wearing green skullcaps and increasing the haj susidy etc. etc. stc.. The hindus definitively felt hugely short changed and have not forgotten those traumas and to add insult to injury the same folks are sitting around and doing nothing but trying to bask/profit on past glory.

[ShauryaT]

Therefore, before I put forward any solutions, I want to be very clear in my mind, what problem am I offering the solutions for.

Before you go on to understand "THE" problem and the "solutions", request that one dwells on the following. In India, we attribute many issues to the "system". Our first attempt should be to try to understand this system, its theories, practices, successes and failures, along with causes. This system is governed by laws. These laws have a structure and have to comply with a constitution. This constitution flows from a conceptual model, in our case the preamble, which would be our first principles. These principles, in turn are formed by values and ideas of a society that we hold dear.

Once you understand this entire chain and have read enough then dwell on the following. What are these ideas and values of "our" society that are enshrined as first principles from which our constitution flows? Now, if you think, that we do not have that right or in balance, i.e: our ideas and values are not enshrined in the current constitution then the downstream effects are no surprise that they would be flawed and likely not to have a buy in from society.

The right level of debate is not problems and solutions, the right level of debate is what are these first principles that we want enshrined in our constitution. Do not worry this is a long and complex debate and even our supreme courts (Keshevananda, Minerva cases) have gone back and forth on what exactly constitutes this basic structure. The last heard on the matter from the courts, were there were 15 such points. However, the courts are handicapped. For, they only interpret this from the existing constitution. These principles ought to be a matter of debate in the public, ideally through its representatives. But if the polity itself fails on this matter then the people have to find an alternative. An alternative that better reflects these ideas in a polity that they want and deserve.

This civil movement seeks to have this debate. However, the opponents will keep on hiding behind the existing "system" for it is in their corrupt vested interests to do so. Even if the current system does have a lot that is good and should be salvaged, its existing practitioners have lost the right to speak on its behalf.

[nataraja]

Therefore, before I put forward any solutions, I want to be very clear in my mind, what problem am I offering the solutions for.

The right level of debate is not problems and solutions, the right level of debate is what are these first principles that we want enshrined in our constitution.

Very thoughtful post. Very much in the right direction. You have travelled quite deep. I just think we need to travel a little deeper to get to the root of the problem

Here is the reason why.

Let us consider the points you have made, which by the way, I agree with. That if your starting point is wrong, you will never get the desired results. Now let us assume for the sake of argument, that our first principles in the constitution are flawed. Let us assume that somehow, by waiving a magic wand, we can fix those and our entire constitution tomorrow, whereby we have the best possible structure and best possible laws. Do you think that alone will fix the problem ?

I dont believe so. Because as long as we the people continue to behave in the same manner as before, in one day......ok, one and a half day.......we will find ways around those laws, ways to circumvent the laws, find loopholes, ways to break the system, bribe the system. Why ? Because we dont have the concept of even a minimal level of voluntary compliance. Why ? Because when we follow the law in any system, we are giving up something in the immediate to get the benefit after a certain time lag (that timelag may be short or long). Because, when we follow the law in any system, we are at that moment of complying with the law, not directly helping ourselves but someone else. Someone else, when they comply with the law somewhere else at some other moment, is directly helping us. You see. So, in order for any people to follow the law voluntarily we have to be prepared to give up immediate gratification and give up an instantaneous direct benefit to us. Both of these things require trust and confidence that the other person will do the same, so that we are not merely giving something up, but at some point in the future and some other place, we will get something too. This trust and confidence in our fellow human is a key to establishing any system and have it succeed.

Now, how would be engander that mutual trust and confidence among so many people ? We wont be able to do it, if we intrinsically dislike our fellow being. Or that we intrinsically have a pathological envy towards our fellow human being. We have to be able to control our"compulsions", so that we make a rational decision. Only a rational decision will allow us to make investments today to reap the benefits tomorrow. Following the law is like an investment. Like any investment, this investment will also be made by investors, which is all of us, if we have faith and trust in other players in the market, that the market is not rigged.

So the real question, I think is not only that we get our first principles, our constitution, our laws, our governing structure, our enforcement structure right, but how do we get us as a people to trust each other to comply with the laws within that ideal setup and maintain the integrity of the wonderful system. WHAT STEPS WOULD BE REQUIRED TO PROMOTE THIS MUTUAL TRUST IS THE KEY.

The above was all about voluntary compliance. Then we have involuntary compliance. For that you only need the "Danda". But for some people in the best of systems, you do require the "Danda".

So, in an ideal situation, you would mix 75% of voluntary steps to promote trust plus a 25% mix of "Danda".

But we cannot get to the ideal situation overnight. Therefore, initially, we may need that 75% or even 90% Danda and 10% voluntary compliance education (which is really just an education to develop better self esteem so we like each other and control over our compulsions to bring another like us, down). Slowly, we can calibrate and as we succeed we can proportionately bring the "danda" element down and raise the "education and valuntary compliance" element.

The obvious question then is, what if the individual or the small group that wields the "danda" turns out to be the bad guy. Well, it seems to me, we have no choice but to take that risk. If he turns out to be the bad guy, people will have to rise up and get rid of that setup too. That will not be anymore difficult than to get rid of this current setup (which in my mind is nothing but a dictatorship of two corrupt parties, one rules 75% of the time and the other 25% if it is lucky, one rules 75% of the country and the other 25% if it is lucky.)

[Manish_Sharma]

Mega exlosions by Deshbandhu Gupta:

Revelations aside, IMO that was a cheap shot calling Pranab Mukherjee "hij...". Such loose name-calling are used by the INC to undermine opposition to its nefarious deeds.

I'm amazed that you can brush aside revelations like Quattrochi's son getting oil digging rights in andaman and be outraged by one word in the whole thing. I mean yes he is emotional, angry at the sheer loot and corruption happening.

[Manish_Sharma]

Not much to worry about Digvijay. Unfortunately the same media he uses for his purpose also keeps a record of all that he pours out. Starting from even before his declarations on 26/11, there is enough material to justify starting an investigation into his roles in treasonable offense. The same method he and his party uses to "investigate" alleged offenses of political targets - will yield results. Let him speak more. A time will come when those who use him as a servant will be forced to disown him to save H&D. He is experienced in "street fighting" he said on live TV, and denied not that he "might" have given a bash or two. So he must be finding it alright if similar things happen to him or those who benefit from his "earnings" in the future.

It is good. It is just storing up and adding to the rage that people like him or Sibal generate. But the next time around, their masters will face it too. String pullers from behind cannot be exempt.

Brihaspati ji, what media? The same media which which hides the fact that Sonia was in europe through the whole kaand? I remember most of the channels while reporting Sonia's letter answering Anna were "just mentioning" that "she was out of Delhi."

This is a link provided by poster kmkraoind:

http://www.firstpost.com/politics/death ... 27836.html

NDTV: A very popular TV news media is funded by Gospels of Charity in Spain supports Communism. Recently it has developed a soft corner towards Pakistan because Pakistan President has allowed only this channel to be aired in Pakistan. Indian CEO Prannoy Roy is co-brother of Prakash Karat, General Secretary of Communist party of India.

India Today which used to be the only national weekly who supported BJP is now bought by NDTV!! Since then the tone has changed drastically and turned into Hindu bashing.

CNN-IBN: This is 100 percent funded by Southern Baptist Church with its branches in all over the world with HQ in US. The Church annually allocates $800 million for promotion of its channel. Its Indian head is Rajdeep Sardesai and his wife Sagarika Ghosh.

Times group list:

Times Of India, Mid-Day, Nav-Bharth Times, Stardust, Femina, Vijaya Times, Vijaya Karnataka, Times now (24- hour news channel) and many more. Times Group is owned by Bennet & Coleman. “World Christian Council” does 80 percent of the Funding, and an Englishman and an Italian equally share balance 20 percent. The Italian Robertio Mindo is a close relative of Sonia Gandhi.

Star TV: It is run by an Australian, who is supported by St. Peters Pontificial Church Melbourne.

Hindustan Times: Owned by Birla Group, but hands have changed since Shobana Bhartiya took over. Presently it is working in Collobration with Times Group.

The Hindu: English daily, started over 125 years has been recently taken over by Joshua Society, Berne, Switzerland.
Indian Express: Divided into two groups.

The Indian Express and new Indian Express (southern edition). Acts Ministries has major stake in the Indian Express and later is still with the Indian counterpart.

Eeenadu: Still to date controlled by an Indian named Ramoji Rao. Ramoji Rao is connected with film industry and owns a huge studio in Andhra Pradesh.

Andhra Jyothi: The Muslim party of Hyderabad known as MIM along with a Congress Minister has purchased this Telgu daily very recently.

The Statesman: It is controlled by Communist Party of India. Kairal TV: It is controlled by Communist party of India (Marxist)

Mathrubhoomi: Leaders of Muslim League and Communist leaders have major investment.

Asian Age and Deccan Chronicle: Is owned by a Saudi Arabian Company with its chief Editor M.J. Akbar

No wonder Conparty & company are so confident that they can put country through "undeclared Semi Emergency" and still win next elections.

[Manish_Sharma]

These old dinosaurs are on the wrong side of history, and its great to see that at least some people in the current hopeless compromised congress also are on the right side, they will play a important role in the resurrection of the INC if and when it is exorcised of the demons possessing it.

Sanku these demons seem invincible, just looking back how JN and IG ruled india with their cunningness add to that the might of western europe and US backing the current Dynasty and you have many giga tons powerful combo.

Apologies to forum for posting the same link again:

http://www.firstpost.com/politics/death ... 27836.html

NDTV: A very popular TV news media is funded by Gospels of Charity in Spain supports Communism. Recently it has developed a soft corner towards Pakistan because Pakistan President has allowed only this channel to be aired in Pakistan. Indian CEO Prannoy Roy is co-brother of Prakash Karat, General Secretary of Communist party of India.

India Today which used to be the only national weekly who supported BJP is now bought by NDTV!! Since then the tone has changed drastically and turned into Hindu bashing.

CNN-IBN: This is 100 percent funded by Southern Baptist Church with its branches in all over the world with HQ in US. The Church annually allocates $800 million for promotion of its channel. Its Indian head is Rajdeep Sardesai and his wife Sagarika Ghosh.

Times group list:

Times Of India, Mid-Day, Nav-Bharth Times, Stardust, Femina, Vijaya Times, Vijaya Karnataka, Times now (24- hour news channel) and many more. Times Group is owned by Bennet & Coleman. “World Christian Council” does 80 percent of the Funding, and an Englishman and an Italian equally share balance 20 percent. The Italian Robertio Mindo is a close relative of Sonia Gandhi.

Star TV: It is run by an Australian, who is supported by St. Peters Pontificial Church Melbourne.

Hindustan Times: Owned by Birla Group, but hands have changed since Shobana Bhartiya took over. Presently it is working in Collobration with Times Group.

The Hindu: English daily, started over 125 years has been recently taken over by Joshua Society, Berne, Switzerland.
Indian Express: Divided into two groups.

The Indian Express and new Indian Express (southern edition). Acts Ministries has major stake in the Indian Express and later is still with the Indian counterpart.

Eeenadu: Still to date controlled by an Indian named Ramoji Rao. Ramoji Rao is connected with film industry and owns a huge studio in Andhra Pradesh.

Andhra Jyothi: The Muslim party of Hyderabad known as MIM along with a Congress Minister has purchased this Telgu daily very recently.

The Statesman: It is controlled by Communist Party of India. Kairal TV: It is controlled by Communist party of India (Marxist)

Mathrubhoomi: Leaders of Muslim League and Communist leaders have major investment.

Asian Age and Deccan Chronicle: Is owned by a Saudi Arabian Company with its chief Editor M.J. Akbar

[brihaspati]

Brihaspati ji, what media? The same media which which hides the fact that Sonia was in europe through the whole kaand? I remember most of the channels while reporting Sonia's letter answering Anna were "just mentioning" that "she was out of Delhi."
[...]
No wonder Conparty & company are so confident that they can put country through "undeclared Semi Emergency" and still win next elections.

Well, stop and think for a moment. Why do so many Islamist and EJ-ists, Commie-lovers and Hindu-bashers all have to desperately "buy" up the media? If there was a wide popular support for their Islamism/EJism/Leftism/Hindu-bashing would they have to go on such paranoid mode of all-encompassing 24-hour propaganda? It is a sign of extreme paranoia and disconnect, distrust of the people.

Sections of Indian elite who felt disconnected from their birth culture - for various reasons - primarily perhaps starting out of a false family/social circle teaching of by-birth-superiority- have always fallen in overt and intense love for the "foreign", and tried to prove their loyalty to foreign ideologies/groupings by licking such foreign boots extra shiny. That is not surprising and is a healthy sign for India. It means that this regime is increasingly feeling its own disconnect. In Indian history this always comes before this or that party of elite "invites" the "foreigner" in the delusional hope of extending their personal power. But this is the necessary process through which the older regime together with its allies and networks can be sufficiently weakened, so that more appropriate systems can come up.

[sumishi]

Revelations aside, IMO that was a cheap shot calling Pranab Mukherjee "hij...". Such loose name-calling are used by the INC to undermine opposition to its nefarious deeds.

I'm amazed that you can brush aside revelations like Quattrochi's son getting oil digging rights in andaman and be outraged by one word in the whole thing. I mean yes he is emotional, angry at the sheer loot and corruption happening.

Don't be. There was a time (before I knew about BFR, and the wheels within wheels in our system, and the world in general) when I was a typical brainwashed product of the mainstream media and our education system, aka a pseudo-secularist and what have you. But now, I am attuned to the realities of the insidious intervention of the Western/Islamist (and their poodles') interests in India, and would not balk at being labelled a "hindutwa-vadi."

[Manish_Sharma]

Well, stop and think for a moment. Why do so many Islamist and EJ-ists, Commie-lovers and Hindu-bashers all have to desperately "buy" up the media? If there was a wide popular support for their Islamism/EJism/Leftism/Hindu-bashing would they have to go on such paranoid mode of all-encompassing 24-hour propaganda? It is a sign of extreme paranoia and disconnect, distrust of the people.

Sections of Indian elite who felt disconnected from their birth culture - for various reasons - primarily perhaps starting out of a false family/social circle teaching of by-birth-superiority- have always fallen in overt and intense love for the "foreign", and tried to prove their loyalty to foreign ideologies/groupings by licking such foreign boots extra shiny. That is not surprising and is a healthy sign for India. It means that this regime is increasingly feeling its own disconnect. In Indian history this always comes before this or that party of elite "invites" the "foreigner" in the delusional hope of extending their personal power. But this is the necessary process through which the older regime together with its allies and networks can be sufficiently weakened, so that more appropriate systems can come up.

But brihaspati ji what if it is part of their well tested strategy (converting whole of SoKo in 20 years) not desperation?

[somnath]

Apologies to forum for posting the same link again:

http://www.firstpost.com/politics/death ... 27836.html

NDTV: A very popular TV news media is funded by Gospels of Charity in Spain supports Communism. Recently it has developed a soft corner towards Pakistan because Pakistan President has allowed only this channel to be aired in Pakistan. Indian CEO Prannoy Roy is co-brother of Prakash Karat, General Secretary of Communist party of India.

India Today which used to be the only national weekly who supported BJP is now bought by NDTV!! Since then the tone has changed drastically and turned into Hindu bashing.

CNN-IBN: This is 100 percent funded by Southern Baptist Church with its branches in all over the world with HQ in US. The Church annually allocates $800 million for promotion of its channel. Its Indian head is Rajdeep Sardesai and his wife Sagarika Ghosh.

Times group list:

Times Of India, Mid-Day, Nav-Bharth Times, Stardust, Femina, Vijaya Times, Vijaya Karnataka, Times now (24- hour news channel) and many more. Times Group is owned by Bennet & Coleman. “World Christian Council” does 80 percent of the Funding, and an Englishman and an Italian equally share balance 20 percent. The Italian Robertio Mindo is a close relative of Sonia Gandhi.

Star TV: It is run by an Australian, who is supported by St. Peters Pontificial Church Melbourne.

Hindustan Times: Owned by Birla Group, but hands have changed since Shobana Bhartiya took over. Presently it is working in Collobration with Times Group.

The Hindu: English daily, started over 125 years has been recently taken over by Joshua Society, Berne, Switzerland.
Indian Express: Divided into two groups.

The Indian Express and new Indian Express (southern edition). Acts Ministries has major stake in the Indian Express and later is still with the Indian counterpart.

Eeenadu: Still to date controlled by an Indian named Ramoji Rao. Ramoji Rao is connected with film industry and owns a huge studio in Andhra Pradesh.

Andhra Jyothi: The Muslim party of Hyderabad known as MIM along with a Congress Minister has purchased this Telgu daily very recently.

The Statesman: It is controlled by Communist Party of India. Kairal TV: It is controlled by Communist party of India (Marxist)

Mathrubhoomi: Leaders of Muslim League and Communist leaders have major investment.

Asian Age and Deccan Chronicle: Is owned by a Saudi Arabian Company with its chief Editor M.J. Akbar

The discussion in this thread has taken a turn for the uber philosophical, but this (the quoted section) is a reflection of an old axiom:
The Left (at least sometimes) has its fact right, but arrives at grotesque conclusions...The Right (almost always) has its facts wrong, and hence arrives at well...

Just factually, a number of these media companies are listed, it shouldnt be difficult to find out shareholding, isnt it?!

NDTV: 60% owned by Prannoy/Radhika Roy
CNN IBN, Network18/TV18 group: 45% owned by Raghav Bahl, another 10% by senior staff
The Hindu: owned by some "Joshua" society?! I guess thats why the family members are squabbling among themselves..
Asian Age: Owned by the Reddys, ad MJA was kicked out as Editor many moons back...

Almost all of it is grossly wrong...Holy #$#%@...Anyway, back to "philosophising"!

[Manishw]

Anyway, back to "philosophising"!

No lets go back to hindu bashing, dragging the whole debate into minutiae and giving clean chits to the Mainovadis right and hijacking the thread by various means eh?

Better yet go on giving thesis about how black money was controlled while gold smuggling was finished by our PM MMS while ignoring the fact that that they found innumerable loopholes later to continue to loot India blind and no matter what law you come up with there will be infinite ways to brazen it out and keep the looting on.In other words drag attention to minutiae in making new laws while the monarchy finds thousand and one ways to circumvent it, but shills for the INC can do no better they will continue doing what they have been doing because as I said before- They perceive their existence and continuation in a different light than most normal Indics would.

[chetak]

Some of these "icons" of the "oppressed" who have held high constitutional office, need to be seriously investigated, even posthumously if need be.

In the meanwhile, back at the ranch in god's own country..........

KGB & kin under CBDT scanner
June 23, 2011 1:16:54 AM

PNS | New Delhi

More trouble is in store for former Chief Justice of India and NHRC Chairperson Justice KG Balakrishnan, who is facing a spate of corruption charges. The Centre has asked the Income Tax department to submit a report on allegation of “undervaluing” income, properties possessed by him and his relatives.

If the Supreme Court’s scrutiny was not enough, the Ministry of Home Affairs on Wednesday forwarded a complaint to the Revenue department under Ministry of Finance to enquire into the reported undervaluing of income and properties secured by former CJI’s family during his tenure between 2007 and 2010.

Confirming the information, sources in the Home Ministry said, “The petition with allegations has been sent to Secretary Revenue department for inquiry.”

Another petition sent to the Prime Minister by the Campaign for Judicial Accountability and Reform, led by advocate Prashant Bhushan, has made out a ground under Section 5 of Protection of Human Rights Act to seek removal of Balakrishnan from his current post of National Human Rights Commission (NHRC) Chairperson. He annexed elaborate details of disproportionate assets amassed by his two daughters and sons-in-law in this regard.

The move by the MHA to forward the petition to Income Tax department is prompted by the need for the Centre to file a comprehensive response to the Supreme Court where a PIL filed by advocate Manohar Lal Sharma sought an independent inquiry into all assets possessed by the ex-CJI.

Home Ministry sources indicated that acting on the Supreme Court’s direction, they have sought details from the Revenue department on the ongoing probe by the Kerala circle of Income Tax.

In their letter to the Revenue Secretary, the Home Ministry asked the concerned official to institute an inquiry through the Central Board of Direct Taxes (CBDT), the investigative wing of the department. “Since the CBDT has the expertise to probe anyone’s income and disproportionate assets, the task has been given to it,” the sources said.

A Kerala-based RTI activist had sought Balakrishnan’s I-T returns and assets from 2005 to 2009, which the I-T department had refused to provide following the former CJI’s objection. Balakrishnan had conveyed to the Income Tax department that he was not willing to disclose his assets as they were not related to any public interest.

Documents available with The Pioneer indicated that on June 21, 2010, one Mohammad Furquan filed a complaint against Balakrishnan to the Vice-President of India, who referred it to the MHA. The Anti-Corruption Bureau of CBI later picked up the complaint and forwarded the same to its Cochin branch on August 8 last year.

In February this year, Director General of Income Tax (Investigation) ET Lukose told reporters in Kochi that the department had found black money with three of Justice Balakrishnan’s relatives but failed to identify them. The department was probing allegations against ex-CJI’s brother KG Bhaskaran (who expired recently), sons-in-law PV Sreenijan and MJ Benny, against whom there is shocking allegations of amassing properties worth hundreds of crores in Kerala, Delhi and Tamil Nadu.

[Dhiman]

Few weeks old article from http://www.indianexpress.com/news/A-tra ... ny/801275/:

A transparency revolution is on, but India not ready, says Antony, Thu Jun 09 2011

In a fresh take on the corruption debate, Defence Minister A K Antony on Wednesday said that the nation is going through a “transparency revolution” and while there is some resistance by those who wield power, the transition to more openness cannot be stopped.

The minister said the transition is facing problems as those in key positions are still not ready for more transparency. “There is transition everywhere now, transition to this transparency revolution. India is not ready, Indian society is not ready, politicians, business people, bureaucrats, journalists, armed forces...all those holding key positions in India are still not ready for this transition,” Antony, known for his strong anti- corruption stance, said.

Antony said that while there are “some problems” in this transition period, this is another phase of the Indian democracy. “After a few years, this (resistance) will settle but transition will go on and I am very happy about it,” the minister said. He was speaking to the media after inaugurating a new conference hall at the Press Club of India.

The minister referred to the Right to Information Act and said that barriers are being overcome and the trend towards more openness cannot be stopped. “The country is passing through a transition. All the secrecy is crumbling in every field, whether it is politics, administration, religion, business or journalism. The trend has started and you cannot stop it midway,” Antony said, adding that the “transparency revolution” will percolate to “all walks of life.

While he did not directly refer to the current demands of the Lokpal bill and agitations by Anna Hazare and Baba Ramdev, Antony credited the parliament for taking steps to increase transparency. “You have to give credit to Indian media, NGOs and social activists (for more transparency) but ultimately it was the Indian Parliament (that acted) through the RTI Act,” Antony said, adding that that in the years to come, the RTI Act will open up newer areas.

Adding a note of caution at the Press Club, the minister said that the media should play a leading role in nation building and should not let itself be hijacked by interest groups. “In this environment, (media) should not allow anybody to use you. The media should not allow itself to be manipulated by vested interests and groups,” he said.

[Dhiman]

Harbansji, No offense intended, but it seems like you are reading a government report to me or perhaps I didn't ask the question properly.

My question is very simple: who or what is going to or has the ability to motivate the government to reform itself?

Dhiman JI, first get it out of your head i have truck with any political party.

And Harbansji, please get it out of your head that I give a damn whether you are head incharge of local Kangress unit, pramukh of local RSS shakha, or loyal CPI-M comrade or BJP member. Whatever your political inclinations are, trust me, they are solely your problem, I don't give a damn.

Now coming back to the point:

If you are just knee jerk anti-INC you won't get a solution either on resolving corruption, because as has been consistently mentioned, the policies that are the root cause of corruption will stay manifested in the process of Governance, irrespective of which party is in power.

The bottom line that I am trying to point to you repeatedly - a point that you seem to be avoiding like a ____ avoids a ____ is that it is not about the policies, it is about lack of will in the government provide good governance and get rid of corruption. These are the people who are the chief beneficiaries of corruption

Ultimately, the policies that come out of the system at any given time are a result of push-and-pull between those who treat government as their personal bank and those who treat government as a mechanism to improve lives of mango people. Bad policies, or no policies, or good policies or good policy + bad implementation - they aren't coming from heaven you know.

[Sanku]

For those like Sanku, who think expecting good governance is like "expecting kalki to come to our rescue", I have only two words for you.

"Narendra Modi".

Modi is a person, not God, and cetainly does'nt look like Kalki to me. Because he is a person , he may be flawed too, but I will settle in my lifetime for his level of good governance. My kids can aspire to go even better.

You are satisfied with very little it seems. No dont get me wrong, I am a staunch Modivadi, one of strongest on the forum, but I still make that comment.

Hang around you will learn.

[somnath]

No lets go back to hindu bashing, dragging the whole debate into minutiae and giving clean chits to the Mainovadis right and hijacking the thread by various means eh?

Not at all, carry on with the philosophising - vedas, purushartha, revolution, mainowadis, Islam, evangelists, X-tian owned media - I am sure there are solutions there..At least "entertainment solutions" are!

[Sanku]

Expecting a clean government will do more harm than good ?

Spoken like a true Congressman.

Yes expecting things in not a solution. I will sit on my haunches and criticizes all the small good things for not being perfect and expect a solution to come from heaven is definitely an approach which does more harm than good.

[Sanku]

No lets go back to hindu bashing, dragging the whole debate into minutiae and giving clean chits to the Mainovadis right and hijacking the thread by various means eh?

Not at all, carry on with the philosophising - vedas, purushartha, revolution, mainowadis, Islam, evangelists, X-tian owned media - I am sure there are solutions there..At least "entertainment solutions" are!

Yes we will, and guess what we can smell the fire that comes from backside of those who are uncomfortable with discussion of India.

[Manishw]

Or Somnath you can always use the good old hindu bashing while pretending to get into minutiaes of corruption as you did. heh

He does not need people going around asking him to be serious or pouring through documents etc.

The "common man" doesnt, but someone/people purporting to carry on "movements" to solve the issue need to...Is BR simply standing in line with millions of other people simply lamenting about black money? In which case, what was he negotiating secretly with the govt on? What indeed did he mean by saying that the "govt has accepted 99% of his proposals"? And of course, what was the fast about?

We were discssing the modus operandi and objectives of BR, not the "common man"...I am still at a loss on what is "this" that the good Baba wanted in order to not do the "fast", apparently 99% of of which was accpeted by the govt...

I keep going back to it - but compare this against the modus operandi /objectives of Arvind K and Co for Lokpal..They knew what they need to do, they had a draft (howsoever utopian) ready, their demands were clear, open and transparent...Aboive al, they achieved something tangible, a movement forward..

Or maybe, just maybe, the good Baba is attempting a live demonstration of how to bring transparency through a process of ambiguity and obfuscation and glib rustic talk! In the same vein as his live demostration to the differently oriented on specific asanas to cure the "disease" (I mean I assume he did his yoga while being cross dressed)

BTW..That armed militia thing came on live TV...

Interesting piece on the BR phenomenon by Dipankar Gupta...
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/story ... 40882.html

[Aditya_V]

quote="Manish_Sharma"]
Apologies to forum for posting the same link again:

http://www.firstpost.com/politics/death ... 27836.html

NDTV: A very popular TV news media is funded by Gospels of Charity in Spain supports Communism. Recently it has developed a soft corner towards Pakistan because Pakistan President has allowed only this channel to be aired in Pakistan. Indian CEO Prannoy Roy is co-brother of Prakash Karat, General Secretary of Communist party of India.

India Today which used to be the only national weekly who supported BJP is now bought by NDTV!! Since then the tone has changed drastically and turned into Hindu bashing.

CNN-IBN: This is 100 percent funded by Southern Baptist Church with its branches in all over the world with HQ in US. The Church annually allocates $800 million for promotion of its channel. Its Indian head is Rajdeep Sardesai and his wife Sagarika Ghosh.

Times group list:

Times Of India, Mid-Day, Nav-Bharth Times, Stardust, Femina, Vijaya Times, Vijaya Karnataka, Times now (24- hour news channel) and many more. Times Group is owned by Bennet & Coleman. “World Christian Council” does 80 percent of the Funding, and an Englishman and an Italian equally share balance 20 percent. The Italian Robertio Mindo is a close relative of Sonia Gandhi.

Star TV: It is run by an Australian, who is supported by St. Peters Pontificial Church Melbourne.

Hindustan Times: Owned by Birla Group, but hands have changed since Shobana Bhartiya took over. Presently it is working in Collobration with Times Group.

The Hindu: English daily, started over 125 years has been recently taken over by Joshua Society, Berne, Switzerland.
Indian Express: Divided into two groups.

The Indian Express and new Indian Express (southern edition). Acts Ministries has major stake in the Indian Express and later is still with the Indian counterpart.

Eeenadu: Still to date controlled by an Indian named Ramoji Rao. Ramoji Rao is connected with film industry and owns a huge studio in Andhra Pradesh.

Andhra Jyothi: The Muslim party of Hyderabad known as MIM along with a Congress Minister has purchased this Telgu daily very recently.

The Statesman: It is controlled by Communist Party of India. Kairal TV: It is controlled by Communist party of India (Marxist)

Mathrubhoomi: Leaders of Muslim League and Communist leaders have major investment.

Asian Age and Deccan Chronicle: Is owned by a Saudi Arabian Company with its chief Editor M.J. Akbar/quote]

The discussion in this thread has taken a turn for the uber philosophical, but this (the quoted section) is a reflection of an old axiom:
The Left (at least sometimes) has its fact right, but arrives at grotesque conclusions...The Right (almost always) has its facts wrong, and hence arrives at well...

Just factually, a number of these media companies are listed, it shouldnt be difficult to find out shareholding, isnt it?!

NDTV: 60% owned by Prannoy/Radhika Roy
CNN IBN, Network18/TV18 group: 45% owned by Raghav Bahl, another 10% by senior staff
The Hindu: owned by some "Joshua" society?! I guess thats why the family members are squabbling among themselves..
Asian Age: Owned by the Reddys, ad MJA was kicked out as Editor many moons back...

Almost all of it is grossly wrong...Holy #$#%@...Anyway, back to "philosophising"!

The above Shareholding have been dismissed as Bumkum by many Rightists on this Forum. Also just like leftists there are different rightists.

For example for those on the Right- Digvijay SIngh is a Leftist and RG is a Leftist, A Roy is a Lefist, Hurriyat is a Leftist, Maoist Politburo Members are Leftist, Barkha Dutt is a Leftist, Kushwant Singh is a Leftist, Teesta Sevalnad is a Leftist, John Dayal(NAC member) who asked US Congressmen to put sanctions on India, A cotrie of NGO/ Media persons are leftists.

Most of time I see them get thier facts completly wrong. So similarly one cannot take one wrong fact by 1 righist and generalise.

But if one is ideologically oriented nothing wrong but the feeling of intectual superiority by taking one statement - Well hmmm

[harbans]

And Harbansji, please get it out of your head that I give a damn whether you are head incharge of local Kangress unit, pramukh of local RSS shakha, or loyal CPI-M comrade or BJP member. Whatever your political inclinations are, trust me, they are solely your problem, I don't give a damn

So stop seeing things as a Govt report in my posts if you care a damn! That statement meant about dunno which post looked to you like a Govt report..what part of the post, what report, what thing. All that of course escapes you to post, but a generalized meaningless vague reference is game. But a slant on my INC leanings is evident from your statement, where none is/ was intended.

The bottom line that I am trying to point to you repeatedly - a point that you seem to be avoiding like a ____ avoids a ____ is that it is not about the policies, it is about lack of will in the government provide good governance and get rid of corruption. These are the people who are the chief beneficiaries of corruption

And i think i am one of the few persons here who has attempted to address that across several posts including in bulletted forms..again if you try addressing something to me.. Please read my posts. It's all there. I put up 6 or 7 points and requested more points if any to be added..on ways on pressuring the Govt to act. Whereas i see you've done nothing much beyond put things in red color and address me without reading my posts and completely based on presumptions.

So please refrain from addressing me in that manner, if you don't want to read my posts. In case you do have a doubt or query do so without throwing slants on INC links and then denials..if you want to look into solutions learn not to be presumptive.

[Arjun]

The Left (at least sometimes) has its fact right, but arrives at grotesque conclusions...The Right (almost always) has its facts wrong, and hence arrives at well...

You are partially correct.

As regards facts and data, both the left and the right have not been averse to fabrication and fitting data to suit one's viewpoint - but the record of the left in India has been distinctly worse. Teesta Setalvad and the regular charges of Hindus tearing out foetuses from pregnant women in riots are only the more outrageous examples.

Where you are correct is on your comments regarding the Left. The only way one can have the facts right and arrive at grotesque conclusions is when the logic is completely wonky. That fits in very well with my observation that it is typically the 'humanities' background, low-on-logic 'right-brained' types that populates the leftist, pseudo-liberal crowd.

[Dhiman]

So please refrain from addressing me in that manner, if you don't want to read my posts. In case you do have a doubt or query do so without throwing slants on INC links and then denials..if you want to look into solutions learn not to be presumptive.

Saying that "it reads like a government report" doesn't mean that I am equating you to Kangress Sir. The main point that I was trying to bring out is that the problem is bad people running the show in government (root cause) not good/bad policies (effect) and I respect you for making that point clearer. The issue has nothing to do with "policies", but everything to do with lack of "good apples" in government.

[Sanku]

Saying that "it reads like a government report" doesn't mean that I am equating you to Kangress Sir.

If it helps, to me the phrase meant a bureaucratic approach (in the non negative sense) -- and not necessarily a association with a party.

[ManishH]

Not at all, carry on with the philosophising - vedas, purushartha, revolution, mainowadis, Islam, evangelists, X-tian owned media - I am sure there are solutions there..At least "entertainment solutions" are!

Somnathji - Although you have been passionately involved in this thread, I find it offensive when you deride solutions based on vedas or Indian culture as "entertainment solutions".

You can make your point without derision of Indian scriptures or cultural values. It's human to get carried away by your passion, but I still think respect for Indian religious texts should be a basic minimum on BRF.

PS: I do believe that Indian culture and moral values have a much better promise of fixing corruption. More than mere "policy" decisions or in fact more than any Government.

[Aditya_V]

“Communal forces behind Hazare, Ramdev agitation”

Talking to journalists here, he said: “These leaders are trying to create a pre-emergency situation, as in the early 1970s, by threatening a mass agitation that resulted in the proclamation of the Emergency in 1975.”

The Minister said the leaders were challenging the Constitution and the law of the land. “They want to sabotage the Constitution and parliamentary democracy in a bid to destabilise the country.”

So the position of INC is - crticize Congress right to rule the country- you are a fascist.

I have a bad feeling, the only way Congress can endear itself to voters who drift (its core Voters will vote for it no matter what) is to engineer anther communal incident. Lets not forget that many of those convicted in Godhra Train carnage held positions in Congress Party

[somnath]

That fits in very well with my observation that it is typically the 'humanities' background, low-on-logic 'right-brained' types that populates the leftist, pseudo-liberal crowd

Hmm, some of the most loved Leftists dont fit that description - Arundhati Roy, Praful Bidwai, Jairam Ramesh (he is only a "recent" Leftist though)

Although you have been passionately involved in this thread, I find it offensive when you deride solutions based on vedas or Indian culture as "entertainment solutions

ManishH-ji, being sceptical about "solutions" to problems based on vedas does not mean "deriding" vedas themselves...In the same way as deriding Ramdev is not the same as deriding "hinduism"..

[Sanku]

ManishH-ji, being sceptical about "solutions" to problems based on vedas does not mean "deriding" vedas themselves...In the same way as deriding Ramdev is not the same as deriding "hinduism"..

There is an obvious pattern to the deriding, which are chosen, when and why.

Trying to play innocent after the act is basically going to take the credibility down further.

[UBanerjee]

That fits in very well with my observation that it is typically the 'humanities' background, low-on-logic 'right-brained' types that populates the leftist, pseudo-liberal crowd

Hmm, some of the most loved Leftists dont fit that description - Arundhati Roy, Praful Bidwai, Jairam Ramesh (he is only a "recent" Leftist though)

I would say the worthy Ms. Roy certainly fits that description quite well!

[Manishw]

ManishH-ji, being sceptical about "solutions" to problems based on vedas does not mean "deriding" vedas themselves...In the same way as deriding Ramdev is not the same as deriding "hinduism"..

Oh! what a tangled web we weave. When first we practise to deceive!

[Arjun]

That fits in very well with my observation that it is typically the 'humanities' background, low-on-logic 'right-brained' types that populates the leftist, pseudo-liberal crowd

Hmm, some of the most loved Leftists dont fit that description - Arundhati Roy, Praful Bidwai, Jairam Ramesh (he is only a "recent" Leftist though)

Arundhati would fit the descrption to a T....also her background is in architecture, which is really more art than science.

As for Praful Bidwai, here's what wiki says...

After failing to complete graduation at Indian Institute of Technology in Mumbai , Bidwai's first notable work in journalism was as a columnist for....

Obviously he realized his left-brain limitations early.

[Manishw]

[devesh]

Somnath,
you have demonstrated hatred for Hinduism quite clearly from time to time. at best, what you have is contempt for Hindu texts and concepts. you are the first one to consistently ridicule and turn the upper lip whenever there is any talk of Hindu scriptures. at several points you hatefully speculated about Baba Ramdev being a transvestite or even having freudian mental trauma b/c he is a secret homosexual. the moderators have completely ignored all of your hateful remarks, partly b/c the thread was moving so fast that your posts got lost in all the other ones. at every step of the way you take pleasure in deriding Hinduism and then conveniently hide behind the mask of "fair criticism." of course, this "fair criticism" does not pertain to Islam or Christianity, but surprisingly only to Hinduism.

[Sanku]

The above video of Desh Bandhu Gupta is a must watch for all Indians......

[Sanku]

of course, this "fair criticism" does not pertain to Islam or Christianity, but surprisingly only to Hinduism.

On the contrary, the scums like Geelani Suzzane et al are cheered on by him, saying that they should be left free to move about as stopping them from doing their nefarious deeds is likely to hurt India by making him stronger.

So the anti Indians like Ilina Sen and Binayank Sen need to feted, and break bread with NAC while Ramdev baba needs to be tortured and beaten.

Flying the tricolor in India is a idiotic exercise according to these but bad mouthing Hinduism is freedom of speech.

This is the standard of fair and balanced that exists here.

Do these people think that they can fool all the people all the time? Sorry boss we need Ramdev treatment, come and hit us, you certainly are not going to pull wool over our eyes.

[Sanku]

The above video of Desh Bandhu Gupta is a must watch for all Indians......

Sorry for quoting myself but I think though DBG was absolutely right in saying that Anna camp and Kangress were both playing each other for mutual benefit initially, the matter so spiraled out of control that both the sides are now at each others throat. Which is good.

The jholawalla society is now caught in a cleft stick, they cant support either their paymasters or their fellow travelers.

Wake up call for them.

As I said laws of Karma have their own dynamics.

[Pranav]

The above video of Desh Bandhu Gupta is a must watch for all Indians......

Caveat Emptor. Desh Bandhu Gupta had also endorsed the clumsily forged CD that was put out to frame Shanti Bhushan.