Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Jun 2011 20:45

Not that far as we dont' care. But it will brinng undue attention to desh.

JANMEJAY · Post by **JANMEJAY** » 22 Jun 2011 21:51

@ramana aye aye capt.....no more revealations in bharat-rakshak from me...

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Jun 2011 22:22

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 23 Jun 2011 16:42

Indian Army shortlists MBDA's PARS 3 LR

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 23 Jun 2011 17:09

If we have the Helina, why are we purchasing this missile from Germany? Helina is supposed to be tested this year right? Why are we purchasing the German missile? Never heard of the tender for the ATG missiles.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 23 Jun 2011 18:09

^^^

The whole situation reeks of the repeat of the T 90 Vs Arjun debate.

Get the PAARS in and then stonewall the HELINA. Stating that the requirement no longer exists.

PS: Has the IA quantified just how many changes will the NAMICA have to undergo before it can be considered acceptable by them.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 23 Jun 2011 18:22

^^^ IA is unlikey to buy NAG.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Jun 2011 18:44

surprisr surprise kornet aur pars ki jai ho.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 23 Jun 2011 18:50

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 23 Jun 2011 19:00

DRDO should get ready to campaign for comparative trials between HELINA and PARS as well

we also have a poll on it on BRF

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 23 Jun 2011 19:03

One thing that needs to be looked is (Perhaps CJ will be able to help)

Are the numbers suggesting interim purchase as Helina gets into operational role or otherwise?

If it is otherwise, my feel is getting stronger that DRDO should stop developing things related to IA. Why waste scarse resources if they dont want? Focus on IN and IAF rather. I am sure the 155mm artillery guns developtment will also go the same way. By the time, our gun is ready, some IA top brass will flag national security card and import and Drdo gun will be another case of infanticide...the only silver line in the saga seems CBI which is hell bent on black listing every firm under some charge and doing its duty and service towards the nation....

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 23 Jun 2011 19:07

,quote. ^^^ IA is unlikey to buy NAG. </quote>

chacko saar i heard that IA had placed order for some 4000 odd nags( land based) ? or u mean ia wont buy helina.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 23 Jun 2011 19:10

^^^^^ If you are correct, then god bless you. I have not heard of such a earth shattering event.

nrshah sahib,

DRDO should keep developing. One day Army comes around, should find a product.

nikhilarora · Post by **nikhilarora** » 23 Jun 2011 19:16

Why is the current state of IA decision making so foreign centric? Can't it be persuaded otherwise (Like the pressure of GOI in case of arjun). Its so disheartening to see the whole indigenous effort drown at the face of IA's phoren shopping spree!!! Sigh!!!

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 23 Jun 2011 19:23

^^^ They haven't made the descision yet. Let them qualify it. then it is up to MoD to look into.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 23 Jun 2011 19:33

When was the RFP for air-launched ATGM issued for LCH?

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 23 Jun 2011 19:38

chackojoseph wrote:Indian Army shortlists MBDA's PARS 3 LR

Chacko sir, it says PARS is 'shortlisted' meaning not 'finalised' yet. if shortlisted what are the other missiles in fray??

HELINA is supposed to be ready for user trials in 2013 - http://frontierindia.net/helina-air-to- ... dy-by-2013

is the PARS hence a stopgap till HELINA gets reday??

btw for those interested -

PARS 3 LR -

http://www.mbda-systems.com/mediagaller ... _lr_ds.pdf

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 23 Jun 2011 19:47

I have limited knowledge in this subject. But a quick search shows that Helina is a subsonic missile while PARS has the max speed of 1.85 mach. So, perhaps it is unfair to compare the two missiles?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Jun 2011 20:19

it is a bit strange why a still under development PARS is shortlisted, while a battle proven Hellfire2 which has undergone not less than 10 tranche iterations since introduction is not. it also has 8km range and a Mach1.3 top speed if you need that kind of speed.
Nag in wiki lists @ 230 m/sec which translates to top speed of 828kmph - nothing to sneeze at.

as the IA is all gung ho about Javelin deal, why not the Hellfire2. looking the vast numbers produced to kill pakis, it will be cheaper too

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 23 Jun 2011 20:26

gakakkad wrote: chacko saar i heard that IA had placed order for some 4000 odd nags( land based) ?

that order was for the MILAN 2T placed in 2009 and not NAG.

Indian Army to Purchase 4100 Milan 2T Anti Tank Guided Missiles in USD 120 million Deal

Avid · Post by **Avid** » 23 Jun 2011 20:31

chackojoseph wrote:^^^^^ If you are correct, then god bless you. I have not heard of such a earth shattering event.

nrshah sahib,

DRDO should keep developing. One day Army comes around, should find a product.

IIRC IA placed a preliminary order of 13 NAMICA and 400 Odd NAG in 2008. With continuing user-trials and validation having completed last year. IA being quite impressed HELINA got a fully supported go and that is why we have seen so much activity/news about HELINA.

IA, to my understanding, has come around to being quite impressed with NAG. But, I am unsure to its fate of further orders because they had ordered significant number of MILAN and now the talk of Javelin. Not entirely clear on the differences/overlaps so not sure if that will impact NAG.

Avid · Post by **Avid** » 23 Jun 2011 20:33

^^^ NAG's final validation trials were completed in July 2010 -- http://www.hindu.com/2010/07/16/stories ... 531500.htm

Avid · Post by **Avid** » 23 Jun 2011 20:36

Our Shukla-ji had also reported on remarkable enthusiastic support from IA for NAG
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/03/ ... nters.html

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 23 Jun 2011 20:46

DRDO Chief, this award ceremony said (DRDO creating a roadmap "Defence technology Vision 2050": Dr VK Saraswat)

He cited the example of NAG Missile. He hoped Army will induct it since the project has been completed.

Hope people understand the gravity of what he said.

sum · Post by **sum** » 23 Jun 2011 21:43

Avid wrote:^^^ NAG's final validation trials were completed in July 2010 -- http://www.hindu.com/2010/07/16/stories ... 531500.htm

Wasn't the NAMICA sent back for complete redesign of most basic features AFTER passing final validation tests?

Nag Missile Induction delayed as Indian Army Seeks Changes In Nag Carrier

The Indian Army has now sought re-designing of the NAMICA for optimum performance. It has been established that the NAMICA must have enhanced features that will ensure that the NAMICA complements the third generation Nag ATGM.

The Indian Army’s bone of contention is with the NAMICA’s limited capabilities. The Indian Army has sought additional features such as a panoramic sight for two commanders, against the present system of having only one such facility for the gunner. Hence, an overhaul in the designing of the NAMICA is being suggested by the Indian Army. Also, an innovation in the chassis system and alteration in the pneumatic suspension can increase the mobility of the NAMICA.

According to analysts, this last moment decision to redesign the NAMICA is a case of lack of foresight and planning by India. The NAMICA has been in existence for at least a decade. Although the Nag ATGM was not ready for this entire period, it reflects a lack of foresight to evaluate the NAMICA this late and go for redesigning at this stage. The evaluation of the NAMICA’s mobility and sensors could have been performed earlier, as the missile was being readied.

Sigh.... reeks of a Arjun redux.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 23 Jun 2011 21:56

chackojoseph wrote:Indian Army shortlists MBDA's PARS 3 LR

Sorry to say this but, ^^^ seems like a confused DDM article.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Jun 2011 22:04

IA think they are still a colonial army deployed in India. Hence the rejection of local products. The only problem is the British dont have a good ATGM or else that would lead the shortlist. Heck it would be the only one listed.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 23 Jun 2011 22:13

there seems to be something murky. I smell a rat somewhere. Methinks Firangis are preventing swadeshi products to prevent competition. I mean nag met the requirements of trial . what more could army want?

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 23 Jun 2011 22:19

There is no hope if Nag is not inducted. We should either bundle up defense PSU's and stop wasting money or take the army to task for favoritism towards imported maal. Maybe there should be a separate Lokpal for Army also, to check who all are benefiting from delayed/rejected desi maal and accepted firangi maal

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 23 Jun 2011 22:22

I guess there should be a closed door meeting chaired by president, wherein Army is made to explain the exact reasons as to why desi maal is rejected/delayed while firangi maal is endorsed with open arms even after failures and lack of performance in field tests.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Jun 2011 22:56

In case of Nag, the IA can't claim ignorance or hands off approach to development for according to "Wings of Fire" they were in the Nag program from project definition days. So claiming now that the carrier is unsuitable, even if its true, is a reflection on themselves for shoddy oversight and coordination. The problem is they are on two-three year tenure/secondment and then move on. So no accountability for the failure or success of the program. So the beat goes on. New officers will come and reject. The power ot reject is with every little guy but not accept. If all lese fails they will claim national secuirty is in jepoardy due to shoddy goods which were designed with their cooridination or lack of it.

So this kind of games will go on.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 23 Jun 2011 23:24

Why are we comparing an A2G PARS 3 with NAG?

Helina is not ready yet. We need a stop gap till it comes onboard. What am I missing?

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 23 Jun 2011 23:35

You are missing the fact that Nag is ready and is still not being inducted...

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 23 Jun 2011 23:36

indranilroy wrote: Helina is not ready yet. We need a stop gap till it comes onboard. What am I missing?

That this argument is eerily reminiscent of another saga of a tank that the IA bought.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 23 Jun 2011 23:38

once upon a time, long long ago, another foreign weapon system was bought as a stop-gap because the domestic one was supposedly not ready yet. the rest, as they say, is history.

________________________
ah, someone has beat me to it.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 23 Jun 2011 23:40

ramana wrote:IA think they are still a colonial army deployed in India. Hence the rejection of local products. The only problem is the British dont have a good ATGM or else that would lead the shortlist. Heck it would be the only one listed.

That is a pretty strong statement especially, coming from some one like you.

There is nary a word on the status of Helina, or on exact status on this air-launched ATGM business and yet, you feel it is all right to pass such a strong, and in my opinion, absurd statement. And on what basis, may I ask? On the basis of an article written and linked on this forum by one of the forumites? An article which itself is not clear on what is under progress. So, all we have is a group think and IA is guilty as charged.

No wonder it has become OK on BRF to pass slur on the Services and atribute bias and motives and this and that at drop of a hat. And you sir, by the above cavalier statement, have contributed to this attitude. That single statement denigrates the contribution of each and every soldier who has donned the uniform. It is indeed a sad day, that on a forum named Bharat-Rakshak, those who actually put their lives in the harms way, are called names. And coming from a moderator and member of your standing, it is sad still.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 23 Jun 2011 23:41

Gurneesh wrote:You are missing the fact that Nag is ready and is still not being inducted...

And you're missing a small fact that PARS3-LR and Nag are not in the same league...

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 23 Jun 2011 23:51

Maybe this procurement is for the WSI Dhruv which is ready but has no missiles to deploy on it. Hopefully the Helina will be ready by the time the LCH weapons testing begins.

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 24 Jun 2011 00:07

@rohitvats The argument is not about PARS per se but about how Nag has been stalled/delayed even after passing user trials.

While we should reserve our opinions until a concrete news of PASR/Helina development, there doesnot seem to be any substance in Army's delaying/denial tactics in Nag, Arjun or INSAS saga. If there is any credible explanation, then rohitvats please do enlighten us lesser beings. For till the time someone can put some logic behind such decisions, to most of us it will seem (however unfortunate that is or however incorrect we may want it to be) that Army is biased against indigenous products and there are those within who would readily for their personal interests jeopardize not only India's combat readiness but also the lives of their fellow servicemen.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 24 Jun 2011 00:39

@rohitvats The argument is not about PARS per se but about how Nag has been stalled/delayed even after passing user trials.

And my argument was especially with respect to the PARS3-LR and HELINA. By bringing in the Nag argument, you're shifting the goal post. In fact, you replied with "Nag being delayed" argument to a specific comment on PARS3 and HELINA by indranilroy. This is what he said:

Why are we comparing an A2G PARS 3 with NAG?
Helina is not ready yet. We need a stop gap till it comes onboard. What am I missing

This is what you wrote:

You are missing the fact that Nag is ready and is still not being inducted...

And my post followed after the above post from you. Can you tell me, how is your reply related to comment/question asked by the poster whose post I have quoted?

While we should reserve our opinions until a concrete news of PASR/Helina development, there doesnot seem to be any substance in Army's delaying/denial tactics in Nag, Arjun or INSAS saga.

Thank you very much for telling me that one needs to reserve his/her judgement till all the facts are out on the HELINA and PARS-3LR saga. But somehow, that does not seem to be necessary these days on BRF. The moment there is some adverse news about local stuff and IA, we have name calling and what not. If a senior moderator uses this approach and calls IA names, well, then it is clear that the rot runs deep.

As for the Arjun story - IA is guilty as charged. And why do I say so? Because there is ample evidence on the topic out there. And I do know about this topic and then some more to form an opinion.

On INSAS - I have no opinion as I have not studied the topic to form an opinion either ways.

Nag - Jury is still out on this one. As for the IA wanting last minute changes on NAMICA - well, that was absurd. But I will still give it a chance.

Army is biased against indigenous products and there are those within who would readily for their personal interests jeopardize not only India's combat readiness but also the lives of their fellow servicemen.

[/quote]

While IA does have mud on its hand - can you list for my benefit how many domestic products, which were offered, the IA has refused to induct? Let me give you a hint - try and visit some of the websites of the labs under DRDO, check what all they make, and how many of them have been inducted in IA/Services. Let me know the %age of products listed which IA/Services may have rejected. And, may be then, you can call the IA as against "desi stuff".