The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

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Sanku
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Sanku »

Pranav wrote:
Sanku wrote:The above video of Desh Bandhu Gupta is a must watch for all Indians......
Caveat Emptor. Desh Bandhu Gupta had also endorsed the clumsily forged CD that was put out to frame Shanti Bhushan.


True, he is not to be watched to be **followed** and as he himself admits, he is a congress person basically, in the way he touts his close contacts with the party. So the full discloses is there.

However having said that, his main points of Congress primarily using the money outside as a formidable force to check any genuine Indian aspiration is quite clear.

Even honest Congressmen who are ideologically opposed to the Sangh variety of more muscular nationalism and prefer softer streams cant stomach the rapine loot thats ongoing.

Of course the chamchas are a different matter. India must historically have the highest ratio of sell outs as % of population. You dont hear of other civilizations groaning under Shiladityas et al. They may be destroyed, and have many other faults, but this seems to be a unique trait to Indians. It seems the Indian flexibility also gives a veneer of carrying out anti National activity under the veneer of "liberal" thought for the very very asuric Unfortunately born in India.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Pranay »

http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?725746
Raising their pitch on the Lokpal Bill issue, the Anna Hazare team today alleged that the government version of the ombudsman was not aimed at fighting corruption but for targeting those who complain against the menace.

The Hazare team felt that the exclusion of a large chunk of the bureaucracy from the ambit of Lokpal and the provision to hear officials accused of corruption before filing of case and charge sheet were not proper.

They wondered how most public servants can be left out of Lokpal's purview while bringing NGOs up to village level within its ambit. They expressed apprehension that Lokpal would be able to haul up activists from any of the organizations representing farmers, labourers and tribals or movements related to anti-corruption, land and other issues.

"Rather than gunning for the corrupt and corruption, government's Lokpal seems to be gunning for those who complain against corruption," the statement said.

It said the government argued that the Lokpal would get overwhelmed with too many cases if all public servants - 40 lakh central and 80 lakh state government officials - were brought under its ambit and restricted to around 65,000 officers above the rank of Joint Secretary.

"In sharp contrast, all NGOs are covered under government's Lokpal, small or big, whether in state or centre.

"So, in a remote village, if a group of youngsters detect corruption in panchayat works using RTI, the youngsters can be hauled up by Lokpal but Lokpal would not have jurisdiction over Sarpanch, BDO or their corruption," it said.

Citing an example, it said, Lokpal would not have jurisdiction over Delhi government officials, but it would have jurisdiction over all RWAs in the capital. "All small neighbourhood groups who raise donations to do Ramlila or Durga Puja would be under Lokpal's scanner," it said.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by anmol »

somnath wrote: The Left (at least sometimes) has its fact right, but arrives at grotesque conclusions...The Right (almost always) has its facts wrong, and hence arrives at well...

Just factually, a number of these media companies are listed, it shouldnt be difficult to find out shareholding, isnt it?!
NDTV: 60% owned by Prannoy/Radhika Roy
CNN IBN, Network18/TV18 group: 45% owned by Raghav Bahl, another 10% by senior staff
Wait, then you must also believe that poor poet-journalist kanimozhi has nothing to do with KalaignarTV.. everything is the fault of that CEO Sharad Kumar.

After all that Radia Tapes,2G, Hassan Ali, Balwa scams,Zebra-Giraffe-Parrot-Tiger web of companies - Mauritius route etc, its hard to understand why would anyone come to a conclusion that it would be easy to find out by who and how companies in India are really funded.

Taking NDTV as an example, they and others like Network 18 have MANY subsidiaries located all over the world whose financial details they don't report in India citing retrospective exemptions by Government. Government institutions like Ministry of Corporate Affairs - FIPB - Info Broadcasting Ministry etc approve all this in same manner they approve everything related to 2G auction and other scams..

So, if certain "Gospels of Charity" would fund firms like NDTV (which magically manages to stay afloat despite years of losses thanks to regular bailouts by investors), it would be anything but easy to find this out.

So axiom should be :-
The Left has (few of; when it suits the argument) its fact right, but arrives at grotesque conclusions (& intellectually lazy, disingenuous generalizations) ...
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by nataraja »

Sanku wrote:
nataraja wrote:
For those like Sanku, who think expecting good governance is like "expecting kalki to come to our rescue", I have only two words for you.

"Narendra Modi".

Modi is a person, not God, and cetainly does'nt look like Kalki to me. Because he is a person , he may be flawed too, but I will settle in my lifetime for his level of good governance. My kids can aspire to go even better.

:rotfl:

You are satisfied with very little it seems. No dont get me wrong, I am a staunch Modivadi, one of strongest on the forum, but I still make that comment.

Hang around you will learn.

:rotfl:

Of course, you have a plan to get someone better than Modi.

Moderators, please take note.

I am new here, but I have noticed that this forum has certain individuals who are mental cases. They have a compulsion to use this forum as an outlet for their fustration resulting not from people's posts, but their own lives outside this forum. I dont write anything personal about anybody. On the contrary, I have always attempted to keep the discussion at a very high level, to the point to philosophizing. But even my posts seem to bring out gratitious and frustrated comments. I have noticed that it is not just me, these same people personally attack other people on the thread too, with a vehemence which I dont understand.

Please request these people to refrain from this disrespectful behaviour. This is merely a manifestation of one of the fundamental problems we have as Indians. We dont like each other, even if we dont know each other, and we vent our hate for each other in any possible forum at the slightest pretext.

I would hope you would ask the posters such as the one I have quoted above to be more respectful. And he is not the only one.

Like I said, if they have a compulsion and have to vent, then a shrink's office would be a more appropriate place, not this forum. And there is nothing to feel ashamed about these things. These days, this sort of disorder is a recognized disease by the medical profession and acknowledging it and getting it treated is no different than getting treated for pneumonia, for instance.
Last edited by nataraja on 23 Jun 2011 17:41, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by AjayKK »

Sanku wrote: So the anti Indians like Ilina Sen and Binayank Sen need to feted, and break bread with NAC while Ramdev baba needs to be tortured and beaten.
Sumannath bhai is our Diggi Raaga, the more melodiously he contorts "Letter to ISI" type posts from Save Binayak Sen type websites, the further the thread drags towards bakistan, which is not unlike the Candle cuddling chankians who spontaneously erupt and disrupt threads by half a dozen strawman-smileys in every post when their position is found untenable. :)

Speaking of the NAC, the chai-biskoot sessions of the eshteemed members always ends up raising a bill which is a bit heavy to pay for the people....

NAC invites 850mn to party without ordering the food - R Jagannathan
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Muppalla »

Sanku wrote: Sorry for quoting myself but I think though DBG was absolutely right in saying that Anna camp and Kangress were both playing each other for mutual benefit initially, the matter so spiraled out of control that both the sides are now at each others throat. Which is good.

The jholawalla society is now caught in a cleft stick, they cant support either their paymasters or their fellow travelers.

Wake up call for them.

As I said laws of Karma have their own dynamics.
So BRD played knowingly or unknowingly as a catalyst for this to happen.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by devesh »

^^^^
exactly....that is one achievement of BR which he did single handedly. he made the INC so contaminated that just to save his face AH can't be too close to INC anymore. of course, INC doing on self destruction mode has pushed AH further away. this is a good sign.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by somnath »

There are nice entertaining philosophising and "usual"-bashing going on here, but saw one small "exception"..
anmol wrote:Taking NDTV as an example, they and others like Network 18 have MANY subsidiaries located all over the world whose financial details they don't report in India citing retrospective exemptions by Government.
I dont know what you are referring to, but exemptions on publication of subsidiary financials are pretty routine -all large companies have that..For practical reasons - with most companies having tons of subs, the annual report will become an unwieldy document if all of them were to be individually published together...Above all, if these are "subs", then their financials will be fully integrated with the parent company....Ergo, if any of the subs have received mysterious financing, it will show up in the parent company's balance sheet...Further, if anyone's really interested, they can get the financials of the subs from the ROC or its equivalent in most countries....

Is there any proof beyond insinuations on any of the alleged shareholding?
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by ShauryaT »

nataraja wrote: So the real question, I think is not only that we get our first principles, our constitution, our laws, our governing structure, our enforcement structure right, but how do we get us as a people to trust each other to comply with the laws within that ideal setup and maintain the integrity of the wonderful system. WHAT STEPS WOULD BE REQUIRED TO PROMOTE THIS MUTUAL TRUST IS THE KEY.
Good, now we are talking substantive. Trust is a key value system. Without this value system in place almost nothing is possible in society - as is evident in large sections of Indian society. But before we go on lamenting, let us look if this value system is incorporated in substantive measure in our polity.

We have to only go through a simple test. One of the key measures of "trust" in a polity is to measure if the system between the center and the state works in a manner that inspires trust. This means, that a state is free to do anything it desires, as long as it does not impinge upon certain core principles of the nation, which the center is duty bound to guard against. The state should be trusted to do as it sees fit, as long as certain core principles (which usually would be the constitution, but since in our case the constitution is not just core principles but a mother of all book of laws, i am using the word core principles as different from a constitution) are not violated.

In India, section 200 requires the assent of a "Governor" (a central government appointee, unelected). The governor can withhold assent and forward it to the "President" IOW: The Cabinet, for consideration. For the time being let us ignore the functioning of this Cabinet in each government. But just by looking at this, it is easy to determine that the center does not "trust" the people of the state and hence section 200 exists.

Now one can see the same pattern the next level down to the city and district (also known as the third tier of governance) and the level of trust in this tier of governance pre and post amendments 73/74, done by PVNR (Panchayati Raj Bills). Even after these amendments these tiers lack the ability to raise funds for themselves. :( How is the town of Rampur to fund that new school is decided by the state, which the state would club into a finance bill, which in turn has to have the assent of the center, through its proxy.

Efficient and willing state administrators, such as Modi make the best of it or work around these constraints. But the constraints remain and are structural.

Now one may argue both ways on how this section 200 has been used but that is not the point. The point is section 200 is an article that promotes mistrust. The lack of trust in the third tier to largely manage themselves is institutionalized mistrust. With such levels of mistrust, it then finds ways to seep into society. (Use blue pen to sign official documents, stamp papers for agreements, 4 levels of security checks at airports, etc)

Now, society gets affected. But in all of this, there might be a mis diagnosis. That being it is "we" the people, who do not trust one another.

Nothing could be farther from the truth. For India that is Bharat, is a land that has remained essentially self governed. It was through its Jatis and work guilds, its rural and land centric systems governed by a sense of righteousness that has sustained this land. Now, this is not to say, things were all hunky dory but the genius of this system well suited for a certain era, cannot be denied.

Even in contemporary India, without trust nothing would work. What will, in the absence of a set of laws that provide security and justice. Example: In business circles, we all know contracts are effectively not very useful and it is only trust that sustains this exchange of trade. Things are changing, but it still remains true for large sections of India. But trust can be taken only so far, and without an effective set of administered laws, things will break down at some point and this is what happens.

IMO: The current system, which promotes systemic mistrust of its peoples, come from the British laid constitution, which was always unitary at its core. The founding fathers gave it a pretense of a federal structure but retained its unitary nature and in process destroyed trust as a value factor in its dealings with society.

Now contrast this with the US system, just as a reference. In the US, it is the state that is sovereign. The states have jointly decided to give up certain aspects of its sovereignty to a federal structure. So in effect, the federal government CANNOT make laws for a state or interfere in its matters and have ANY say in its laws, as long as they do not impinge upon the constitution (the common construct they all chose to adhere to). Here, trust works in the opposite manner. It is not the center that has to trust people, for that power was never provided to it but the center that has to fight tooth and nail, to get certain common powers for the good of all vested in the federal structure. The result is a very narrow constitution for 200+ years but only 25 amendments. The ultimate test of trust is enshrined in the US constitution as its second amendment of the right of citizens to bear arms and raise militias. Did you see the reaction of P. Chidambaram at the mere hint of something like this by Baba Ramdev?

I do not want to imply that we blindly copy the US but there are only so many large democracies on earth to compare and contrast with.

It is not the people that need to trust one another for that exists and needs no special innovation or amelioration. There is a need to institutionalize such trust in our polity and laws.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by anmol »

somnath wrote:There are nice entertaining philosophising and "usual"-bashing going on here, but saw one small "exception"..
anmol wrote:Taking NDTV as an example, they and others like Network 18 have MANY subsidiaries located all over the world whose financial details they don't report in India citing retrospective exemptions by Government.
I dont know what you are referring to, but exemptions on publication of subsidiary financials are pretty routine -all large companies have that..For practical reasons - with most companies having tons of subs, the annual report will become an unwieldy document if all of them were to be individually published together...Above all, if these are "subs", then their financials will be fully integrated with the parent company....Ergo, if any of the subs have received mysterious financing, it will show up in the parent company's balance sheet...Further, if anyone's really interested, they can get the financials of the subs from the ROC or its equivalent in most countries....

Is there any proof beyond insinuations on any of the alleged shareholding?
That is exactly what has not happened in the case I cited.. they used Government's exemption as an excuse. As for proof, Sunday Guardian did story on this they even got details from countries that allowed sharing of financial..

So unless you yourself have financial details of all the subsidiaries and details of those firms that invest in such subsidiaries.. don't pretend you know who funds firms like NDTV.

p.s.: This non-disclosure of info on subsidiaries was only a small part of Guardian's expose.. the story also showed many financial irregularities in NDTV such as over-valuation of share value to get bailout from ICICI bank which along with RBI overlooked all this.(at time when bankruptcies were going on in US)
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by somnath »

anmol wrote:So unless you yourself have financial details of all the subsidiaries and details of those firms that invest in such subsidiaries.. don't pretend you know who funds firms like NDTV
Beyond what is disclosed per Indian laws for listed companies, certainly I dont...But then, if you are making an allegation, onus is on you to furnish data, no?
anmol wrote:.s.: This non-disclosure of info on subsidiaries was only a small part of Guardian's expose.. the story also showed many financial irregularities in NDTV such as over-valuation of share value to get bailout from ICICI bank which along with RBI overlooked all this.(at time when bankruptcies were going on in US)
You might be referring to this..
http://www.sunday-guardian.com/investig ... n-responds

It seems the allegations are of hiding losses, non-payment of taxes, enrichment of overseeas shareholders etc...Where does it allege that NDTV is being funded by X-tian evangelists for ulterior purposes?

And BTW, are there similar "exposes" on the other claims as well?
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by anmol »

somnath wrote:You might be referring to this..
http://www.sunday-guardian.com/investig ... n-responds

It seems the allegations are of hiding losses, non-payment of taxes, enrichment of overseeas shareholders etc...Where does it allege that NDTV is being funded by X-tian evangelists for ulterior purposes?
First all those are not allegations when SundayGuradian already have shown proof and NDTV's CEO have accepted some of it & given lame excuses while for the rest NDTV have resorted to filing lawsuit..

Secondly, I did not allege anything like that, except that its not not possible for one to know who funds firms w/o having information on all of the firms subsidiaries - transactions - firms dealing with subsidiaries.

So you are not in position to rule out the allegation that NDTV(or other media houses) may be funded by X-tian orgs..
somnath wrote:And BTW, are there similar "exposes" on the other claims as well?


Yes, please google.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by ManishH »

somnath wrote:ManishH-ji, being sceptical about "solutions" to problems based on vedas does not mean "deriding" vedas themselves...In the same way as deriding Ramdev is not the same as deriding "hinduism"..
Somnathji - I trust your intent, but your words indicated that you hold any solution based on vedic culture as "entertainment solution" by default. Sad is the day when moral foundation of Rgveda - सत्येनोत्तभिता भूमिः ... रतेनादित्यास्तिष्ठन्ति (Truth is the basis of Earth, by Divine Laws is Sun held secure) is underestimated.

Corruption cannot be defeated by the guile/strategy or law and policy making of any government or ruling elite; but when Indian people realize the state of civilizational rot it has caused.

Today in Indian society, there are too many social reward systems for corruption. When the individual realizes that common gain requires sacrificing personal gain, that's when he reaches the highest degree of evolution.

Such collective moral realization can only come if society and education system reinforces morals and values. Let society be it's own Lokpal. Game theories hold that even minutest social engineering that can turn around the social reward into a social punishment will have a cascading effect (eg Readers' Digest lost wallet experiments). Why deride cultural approaches to that social engineering ?

It's also held in vedic belief that Creation was started with Divine Laws (rta) and Truth (satya). Why can't we stress our scriptures to make Indian society realize that with Corruption, we are not following the Truth and therefore it'll lead to Destruction.

P-secs will ofcourse deride cultural approaches as Indian version of "Bible Thumping". Any cultural solution to social problems alarms them so much that they instantly call it impractical and are even ready to preserve status quo. If our post-independence education had stressed Indian cultural morals and education, things would not have come to this pass.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Pranav »

It seems the Government version of the Lokpal bill is meant to shield the corrupt rather than fight corruption:
The statement said before the investigations actually start, the government servant can file a cross complaint against the citizen straight to the special court, without any preliminary enquiry by any agency, that the complaint is false or frivolous.

“The government will provide free advocate to the government servant to file this case. The citizen will have to defend himself on his own. Then there is stiffer punishment for the complainant than the corrupt government servant.

“If the Special Court concludes that the complaint is frivolous or false, the citizen faces a minimum of two years of punishment. But if corruption charges against government servant are proved, there is a minimum of six months of punishment for the corrupt government servant,” it said.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 128768.ece
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by nataraja »

ShauryaT,

Excellent post. A lot I agree with, a lot I disagree. Let me start with the agreement, then get into the disagreement and then end by suggesting a point of agreement on top of which we can build our discussion and perhaps come up with solutions. It is very important for any conversation to continue that somewhere we start with a point of agreement, even if it is at a very basic level.

So, I agree that our constitution and laws as they are setup breed mistrust. I also agree that there certainly was a certain degree of trust in the past that you have mentioned. I also agree that we have to decentralize and reform our entire system.

Where I disagree is here. I dont believe that it is only the bad constitution and bad laws that has caused distrust. I think it distrust exists independent of these bad laws. Here is why I think so. If trust existed among the general populace, our general populace would have been able to fix the bad constitution or the bad laws long time ago. Because mutual trust would have enabled, not only enabled, compelled the general populace to organize into one strong citizen force, which then through voting, citizen's pressure, intellectual discussion and even coming out on the streets if necessary, would have forced the governments to change the laws and even the constitution. The fact that we have'nt been able to do that suggests lack of organization. Lack of organization is solely because of lack of trust, for whatever reason. Regardless of reasons, the fact remains, that we lack trust in each other at this point.

Therefore, bad laws and bad constitution are only a symptom of that lack of trust. Another argument for why it is lack of trust. As much as I am critical of this constitution and set of laws (I in fact think all of it needs to thrown in the trash can and start afresh), but even I and I am sure you can agree that a lot of the laws are good and a lot of what this consitution says is good. But still, it is to be found, that the good laws are the ones violated most by our citizenry. Running a traffic light is an epidemic in India. It is not so, because the overwhelming majority of the 16 year olds who run red lights are consciously thinking that we have a bad constitution and bad set of laws. They do it because they have been conditioned into breaking the law by their parents and the society and the reason this law-breaking strain exists in the society is because of the basic disdain for each other and thereby basic lack of trust. I bet you, the 16 year old who is running the red light is doing it becuase he doesnt trust his friend to also obey the traffic light and he doesnt want to be left behind.

In any case, here is where we can agree. Whether historically we trusted each other or not is an academic topic which we can discuss in another thread. I think we were deficient although not 100% deficient, but you seem to think that we were not deficient at all. It only matters academically, I think. We can agree though, that whether it is due to our own inherent weakness as I think or due to foreign influences as you think, there is a severe trust deficit among citizens right now. We can also agree that this is to be corrected for all kinds of reasons, not the least of which is for the purpose of what you want and even I want, ie., "FOR THE PURPOSE OF EFFECTING THE CHANGES IN THE SYSTEM", which according to you cause the lack of trust and according to me, compound that lack of trust.

Because, without developing this trust at grassroots citizenry level, I dont know how we organize effectively and without organization, I dont know how you change this rotten system. Whether you wish to change it democratically or through a revolution, that basic ground level trust is required, so that we can organize to bring about that change.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Sanku »

nataraja wrote:
Moderators, please take note.

I am new here, but I have noticed that this forum has certain individuals who are mental cases.
Yes I am sure moderators are taking note.
:lol:
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by archan »

phew... indeed.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Manishw »

Sanku wrote:
nataraja wrote:
Moderators, please take note.

I am new here, but I have noticed that this forum has certain individuals who are mental cases.
Yes I am sure moderators are taking note.
:lol:
Sanku Ji,

I guess the newbies are quick to take offense where none is intended.Only thing I can think off is that since I was a lurker here only you, B Ji, Ramanna Ji and Shiv Ji inspired me towards some critical analysis.I can only hope that the newbies stay long enough to understand and benefit from you all in your posts and not take such quick offense.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Sanku »

Muppalla wrote:
Sanku wrote: Sorry for quoting myself but I think though DBG was absolutely right in saying that Anna camp and Kangress were both playing each other for mutual benefit initially, the matter so spiraled out of control that both the sides are now at each others throat. Which is good..
So BRD played knowingly or unknowingly as a catalyst for this to happen.
IMVHO -- knowingly.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Sanku »

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/anoth ... ll/807755/

Another Anna salvo: Ready to face bullets for Lokpal Bill
Hazare, who was on his way to his village Ralegaon in Ahmednagar district, also wondered whether the present Congress party was the same that had links with Mahatma Gandhi and leaders like Kamraj.
Good morning Anna-ji, its a little late in the day, anyway, glad that you realized it.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Sanku »

Marten wrote:Now is the time, but who really has the time when there are mouths to feed? Unless the junta want a truly clean state and is willing to bring this upon at least the local governments, nothing will move. .
True, Marten Saar, in the end it boils down to awareness levels and wishes of Junta. So far no particular hope is seen in terms of behavior through established democratic channels.

However, although I do not know how many WKK types who flocked to AH the first time around will go there again, but BR is DEFINITELY a BIG DEAL in entire north belt. Easily up to Assam from Gujarat. Probably language issues at play here.

Something broke that night. It cant be undone. How it plays out remains to be seen. But something broke.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by ShauryaT »

>>The fact that we have'nt been able to do that suggests lack of organization. Lack of organization is solely because of lack of trust, for whatever reason. Regardless of reasons, the fact remains, that we lack trust in each other at this point.

Nataraja: Please do not take this personally but the above is a cop out. Diagnosis and being accurate on these reasons is critical to understanding what goes on.

The same Indian, who does not follow red lights in India, suddenly starts following it in a land governed, where consequences for such acts are swift and fair, without prejudice and/or favor. The disdain for laws is due to the fact that the laws have not helped the populace enough. It only seeks to control and even exploit them.

Ask the question, where does this mistrust come from, as I have for many years and do not rest till you find some answers. Request you not to simply give up and say it does not matter where it comes from, for it does.

As for how do you go about changing this system is another mother of all questions. I am certain, it shall not be a revolution and this has nothing to do with trust and I am not sure if I have the capacity to explain this statement, at this time. However, if there is one thing above all others that has to happen is a leadership that will affect this change. However, this political change will not occur directly. This system has been built over many generations. It cannot be swept away overnight. There are many steps that are needed and the first among these is reforms - the prime goal of this reform being to take away the powers of the government and to get the government out of the business of business. There are some parties and governments, who understand this better than others.

The NCRWC was to bring in some much needed constitutional reforms, without touching the basic parliamentary structure but even that was rejected by some parties. What gives :(
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Tamang »

Anna Hazare may get 'Ramdev treatment' if he fasts: Digvijay
"If Anna goes on a fast in New Delhi, he will also be meted out the treatment depending upon the prevailing situation at that time," Singh said without mentioning the crackdown on Ramdev's protest at Ramlila grounds recently.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Sushupti »

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by brihaspati »

Manish_Sharma ji,
this will go much further away from the current thread! Some other thread? What is relevant on this thread is cyclic convergence to the issue of BR's supposed anti-homosexualism and supposed cross-dressing and supposed "un"-civil-society-non-draft-non-legal-background approach.

By the way, what happened to discussion and dissection of the uber-concrete draft? There was such sneering prevarication on claims about it - and suppression of the search for personal power by a section of "self-styled civil-society" "uber-legal-background" "beyond all supervision" and supreme-immunity claimants. Moreover after bashing and mocking all "extra-constitutional" attempts at gaining power, the "civil-society" search for super immune power bypassing "elections" - was however found to be alright and unworthy of mocking.

I had raised some pointers about how the civil-society could be weilding significvant power through the backdoor. Or for that matter the special immunity given even within the Lokpal to offenders of "legal background" - who have to be tried by over-representation of uber-human "legal backgrounders" onlee. It seems after those pointers - discussing the draft has gone down the drain of amnesia.

I thought there was loud demand on discussing "concrete" stuff - including the draft. Now it appears only the drum-beat of uber-pompous declarations about how wonderful that draft is, and how pious in its "intent" it is - almost we can start making a new idol of it and build a temple to it!

We have gone back to bashing Hindu gurus "onlee"! If it is such an important issue for the "centre-left" with regards to corruption, should it not be an item in the Lokpal draft?

Those of you who are wondering about the differences between the "centre-left" and the "right" in getting things wrong, please don't! The "centre" had never anything to start with in the first place, it flourishes in a vacuum - that allows complete flexibility of morals, and no need to commit to any logic. The "left" started with what it wanted to "conclude" anyway, so it is a matter of cyclic return to the same harangue and the same starting point - like the non-human apes. The "right" - the "fool" that it is- tries to be human and start out from something to reach a destination. Therefore it makes mistakes.

Now choose what you want to be - the "ape" or progress beyond it, to the human stage.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by ShauryaT »

Sanku wrote: True, Marten Saar, in the end it boils down to awareness levels and wishes of Junta.
Yes and let us face it, the awareness levels are pretty low and the Junta can be alarmingly stupid as well as decisive at times. So, what gives? The change has to be led by a leadership. A determined leadership that understands how to wield power and use that power for the common good. Follow Krishna's advice and not quibble about the fairness of tactics to defeat an evil enemy. Without Krishna, the Pandavas would have been doomed and with it Bharat Varsha. The enemy in our case being, our deracination.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by sanjeevpunj »

What I see happening today in India post Lokpal Bill confrontations is a polarisation of Aam Aadmi. Two poles are diverging constantly from each other, getting further away - the corrupt rulers/ex rulers within or outside the government form one pole, and those wanting to fight, eliminate and destroy corruption and punish corrupt people are the other pole.Eventually the polarisation wil complete itself, and there will be a split of the mass base. This might result in eventually the formation of a two party system in India, it is still a long way off, but it is the natural consequence as democracies mature. Thus we might end up with Pro-corruption old school ideology based party (represented today by Congress and BJP and adherants) and an Anti-corruption new school ideology based party(represented by other parties that get together under this movement).
Whatever names evolve for these, will be evident in the coming days.I see this as the only stable form of Democracy that will work for India, one will keep a constant check on the other.Eventually, due to excesses of corruption, one of these parties will wither out and finally we will have a proper governance in India.How many years to this, I really wonder, but I see this as the only way out of the present mess.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by nataraja »

ShauryaT,

Dont take it personal, but it appears as if you have not read my post in full or you missed that one point. I said in my previous post that if you like, we can discuss where the distrust comes from, in a different thread.

Precisely, because one makes these kinds of genuine mistakes (such as missing reading something), it is best not to get personal. One then has to get embarrassed.

I standby my statement. The fact is that there is mistrust at this point. The solution is only "to remove that mistrust". I am open to a discussion on how you remove that distrust.

Also, when you foreclose a solution, such as revolution and then only want to discuss solutions by putting your own limits as to where the solution should fall into, then I dont have much to say. You are entitled to place conditions on the discussion between you and me. I am entitled to accept those conditions or not accept those conditions. I choose not to accept your conditions. If that means you and I dont have a conversation, so be it. You may be certain it will not be through a revolution. I am certain, it will only be through a revolution. Why ? Because the distance we have to travel between "what is" and "what oughta be" is so large, that we will only survive if we cover it quickly. Any quick travel of that great a distance is by definition, "revolutionary". The nature of the revolution can be either violent or non-violent. Even here, I happen to think it will probably be violent.

Why a person abroad doesnt run a red light is because of the fear of Danda but it also maybe that he trusts his fellow "foreigner" more than he trusts his fellow Indian to obey the law. The key difference is this. Abroad, more than likely, he has not been a part of creation of that system(whether it be laws or constitution). Good laws and system was created for him and it was ready made for him. He simply has to follow the law. In India he first has to be a party to "creating" a new system. Following the law in a place where there is fear of Danda AND trust for your fellow citizens requires far less fortitude than actually attempting to "create a new system"
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by ShauryaT »

Nataraja: You are making the classic mistake of confusing what you want to happen (revolution, violent), with what is likely to happen. Possibility and probability are two separate things. Anything is possible but each possibility has a probability. When it comes to probabilities, they have to be evaluated against available data and evidence. Reasonable people can disagree on the interpretation and meaning of this data but without this data to serve as a backup, our envisioned solutions, only become like wishes - with very low probabilities.

The question is what are the probabilities of a likely violent revolution based on? What can you point to in "our" history that leads you to say this. Also, do lay down a case for successes based on it. Added: Also, I have foreclosed on the matter as I have thought through and contemplated on it along with readings from our history. But, that is my view.

Also, please do lay down for better clarity your view on where this mistrust within the Indian populace comes from, in your view.

We do not have to agree and my style is a little direct, so apologies but no harm meant.
Last edited by ShauryaT on 24 Jun 2011 01:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Manish_Sharma »

brihaspati wrote:Manish_Sharma ji,
this will go much further away from the current thread! Some other thread? What is relevant on this thread is cyclic convergence to the issue of BR's supposed anti-homosexualism and supposed cross-dressing and supposed "un"-civil-society-non-draft-non-legal-background approach.
Right Brihaspati Ji! Touch on this on some other thread and I'll read it.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Muppalla »

ManishH wrote: any solution based on vedic culture as "entertainment solution" by default. Sad is the day when moral foundation of Rgveda - सत्येनोत्तभिता भूमिः ... रतेनादित्यास्तिष्ठन्ति (Truth is the basis of Earth, by Divine Laws is Sun held secure) is underestimated.

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It's also held in vedic belief that Creation was started with Divine Laws (rta) and Truth (satya). Why can't we stress our scriptures to make Indian society realize that with Corruption, we are not following the Truth and therefore it'll lead to Destruction.

P-secs will ofcourse deride cultural approaches as Indian version of "Bible Thumping". Any cultural solution to social problems alarms them so much that they instantly call it impractical and are even ready to preserve status quo. If our post-independence education had stressed Indian cultural morals and education, things would not have come to this pass.
hmm. Which world do you live sir :). People spend a lot of time and do PHDs to rationalize wife swapping and group **** and there are folks who will write reams of pages on such topics. US is planning to introduce gay s-e-x education for 10 year old kids so that they can decide if they are already gays. You also know US systems are like gospels (modern vedas) that drives the world for another thousand years. In such a world and times you ask to find solutions from vedas. It will be truley boring and I don't think it has even entertainmain value.

Move on saheb :wink: :wink:
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by nataraja »

ShauryaT wrote:Nataraja: You are making the classic mistake of confusing what you want to happen (revolution, violent), with what is likely to happen. Possibility and probability are two separate things. Anything is possible but each possibility has a probability. When it comes to probabilities, they have to be evaluated against available data and evidence. Reasonable people can disagree on the interpretation and meaning of this data but without this data to serve as a backup, our envisioned solutions, only become like wishes - with very low probabilities.

The question is what are the probabilities of a likely violent revolution based on? What can you point to in "our" history that leads you to say this. Also, do lay down a case for successes based on it. Added: Also, I have foreclosed on the matter as I have thought through and contemplated on it along with readings from our history. But, that is my view.

Also, please do lay down for better clarity your view on where this mistrust within the Indian populace comes from, in your view.

We do not have to agree and my style is a little direct, so apologies but no harm meant.

First of all, no apolgies necessary. Thanks anyway. You seem to be a civilized person. So, from now on, lets give each other the benefit of the doubt, that both of us are here to explore and find solutions and learn and if we are missing something, its not because either of us have motives. We can clinically break down the logic of each argument and point out flaws.

So here goes.

1. I never said that there is a high probability of a revolution. All I said is this.
a. There is change needed.
b. There are only two options. Either change occurs within the system or via a revolution. (the third option of an externally forced change of the kind that we both agree is required is extremely remote, as no foreign power is going to want to impose on us a Hindu nation)
c. Change of the kind that we both want, is not likely to come from within the current system. (There is zero probability of that, which translates into no possibility). This is my opinion based on various facts that I will be happy to discuss.
d. Change can only come via a revolution. The probability of such a revolution bringing about the change of the kind we want is not very high, but still higher than zero, which is the case of change from within.
e. Therefore, it logically follows that revolution is desirable. Nowhere do I state that it is highly probable. It is not highly probable. BUT IN MY VIEW IT IS MORE PROBABLE, EVEN IF IT IS ONLY A SMALL PROBABILITY, THAN POSITIVE CHANGE FROM WITHIN.
f. Given that, revolution is our only chance. The alternative, which is change within the current system is ZERO.


Now you can quibble with my premises. You can say that in your view, the probability of revolution is close to zero, because of our historical background and so on. I dont agree. But we can discuss it. However, even if you are right, I would prefer to defy history and work towards creating a revolution. The only other alternative is to defy recent history and work towards creating reform within the current system so that through our efforts, we increase the probability. In this case it is a personal preference. I personally have just had it with the current system and dont want to have anything to do with it. And I know thousands of people who think like that. So, I much prefer to work towards a revolution.

As to your question to me, of what in our history and background makes me feel a revolution is possible, this requires a whole new thread. But I am not sure such a thread will be entertained on this forum, because I am afraid, the forum admins and participants may fear discussing revolution on this forum. Thats the reason I may seem a little cagey to you. Because I dont want BRF'ites to get into trouble. I for one would welcome a separate thread to discuss the "pros and cons of a revolution and its probability" in another thead, if everyone is game.

But here is something for you to think about. We are living in a world where many things are happening for the first time in history. Before those bicycle repairmen invented the airplane only about a hundred years ago, on one had ever flown in history. Before Bell invented the telephone, no one had talked long distance. Before the French had their revolution, they never had it before. Before the Americans had their revolution, not only did they not have it before, but no colony had successfully revolted and overthrown their imperial masters. And before Mao's long march, there had never been any revolution in Chinese long history. You know, Shivaji created a martial people out of the Marathas within only a few years. The Marathas had no martial traditon before him. Besides, if Shivaji had looked at the history of heroic Rajput struggle against the muslims, where the Rajputs ended on the losing side, he would never have attempted his own struggle against the muslims and broke their backs. He is a fairly recent example of a successful homegrown revolt, some fruits of which we still enjoy today and we would have enjoyed more fruits, if some of Shivaji's successors had not foolishly indulged in internecine warfare which allowed the English an opportunity to step in.

What happens is not just determined by our history, but also by our present and what people in the present do. People write and rewrite history all the time.

You may not have a preference for a revolution, but that is another story. Forget about the revolution for a while. Explain to me, why you think that there is any hope for positive change within the current system. If you cant explain it or if you yourself are not convinced of it, then by elimination, you only have one option left, right, no matter how far fetched it is?
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by archan »

nataraja wrote: I am new here, but I have noticed that this forum has certain individuals who are mental cases. They have a compulsion to use this forum as an outlet for their fustration resulting not from people's posts, but their own lives outside this forum. I dont write anything personal about anybody.
Sir, you seem to have a problem managing your discussions on BRF. I see trouble in future if this behaviour continues. Simply stop characterising others when you indulge in debates.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by nataraja »

archan wrote:
nataraja wrote: I am new here, but I have noticed that this forum has certain individuals who are mental cases. They have a compulsion to use this forum as an outlet for their fustration resulting not from people's posts, but their own lives outside this forum. I dont write anything personal about anybody.
Sir, you seem to have a problem managing your discussions on BRF. I see trouble in future if this behaviour continues. Simply stop characterising others when you indulge in debates.

Sir,

I was the one who filed a complaint to the admins from which you have quoted above. I find it amazing that the complainant is being locked up and beaten up by the police.

Is it possible that my complaint is against some minister or a remote control within BRF ? Or the local Police Inspector got a phone call from someone "high up" ?
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by Philip »

The problem is not with the Constitution but with the IMPLEMENTATION of it! For examplewe all see a host of traffic violations committed on every Indian road.How many of the offenders are actually hauled up?Will these same worthies behave in similar fashion when living abroad? How many cop shops fail to file FIRs depending upon which party is "more powerful" or has more moolah in its bags! So too with the judiciary at the lower levels especially.

Corruption has saturated Indian society so much that no amount of legislation,new bills passed,etc.,will have any use unless the implementation of them and prosecution of offenders is done.This requires govt. officers and public servants of integrity.There are still many,but the politico-babu-business nexus stifles such individuals and routes the work to be done through the corrupt batalions.The expose of the corrupt and the speedy prosecution of them is what isneeded.For the first time we are seeing scamsters like Raja,Kani,Kalmadi,et al,languising in jail thanks to the relentless media campaign and public action and the highest court in the land whose CJ has sent down a clear message to all,tking the investigating agencies (CBI) by the scruff of its neck and forcing it to do it job without interference!
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by somnath »

ManishH wrote:Today in Indian society, there are too many social reward systems for corruption. When the individual realizes that common gain requires sacrificing personal gain, that's when he reaches the highest degree of evolution.

Such collective moral realization can only come if society and education system reinforces morals and values. Let society be it's own Lokpal. Game theories hold that even minutest social engineering that can turn around the social reward into a social punishment will have a cascading effect (eg Readers' Digest lost wallet experiments). Why deride cultural approaches to that social engineering ?

It's also held in vedic belief that Creation was started with Divine Laws (rta) and Truth (satya). Why can't we stress our scriptures to make Indian society realize that with Corruption, we are not following the Truth and therefore it'll lead to Destruction.
Manish-ji, admirable thoughts...But one problem, there is no way I (or anyone of the 1.2 billion other Indians) can change the existing value systems of the Rajas, and Kanimozhis, and Kalmadis, and Yeddys, and Mainos and the thosands of other nasty little people...As far as I can tell, going by group think consensus here, the India as a "society" "lost" these values about 1000 years back (which is when those nasty muslims came and "colonised" us, isnt it?)..At the very least, there is no way we can convert the decadent Indian society into a "dharmic" model in short time...

Unfortunately, I want everything for me, my family, my kids and my country today - from a better quality of life to India sitting on all high tables - I (and presumably most Indians) want to see that in their lifetimes...Ergo, we need to have solutions that can deliver here, now, within the constraints of our "adharmic" values and ethos...Our politicians will continue to have the likes of Raja - we need to ensure that the system delivers despite them...

Unless Lord Krishna (my favourite God, by a distance) comes down on Earth and waves his magic wand to convert us all to vedic "pristinity", unfortunately I tend to believe that solutions in our case will need to come from within the system....

As for the rest, it still is interesting reading!
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by jaibhim »

Possible line of analysis for a post hazare and 2g scenario?
Please follow weblink---- http://www.chauthiduniya.com/2011/06/ra ... ister.html
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by ShauryaT »

Philip wrote:The problem is not with the Constitution but with the IMPLEMENTATION of it! For examplewe all see a host of traffic violations committed on every Indian road.How many of the offenders are actually hauled up?Will these same worthies behave in similar fashion when living abroad? How many cop shops fail to file FIRs depending upon which party is "more powerful" or has more moolah in its bags! So too with the judiciary at the lower levels especially.

Corruption has saturated Indian society so much that no amount of legislation,new bills passed,etc.,will have any use unless the implementation of them and prosecution of offenders is done.This requires govt. officers and public servants of integrity.There are still many,but the politico-babu-business nexus stifles such individuals and routes the work to be done through the corrupt batalions.The expose of the corrupt and the speedy prosecution of them is what isneeded.For the first time we are seeing scamsters like Raja,Kani,Kalmadi,et al,languising in jail thanks to the relentless media campaign and public action and the highest court in the land whose CJ has sent down a clear message to all,tking the investigating agencies (CBI) by the scruff of its neck and forcing it to do it job without interference!
The court example you have provided is good evidence, why the current constitution does not work. First, it is not the court's job to be on the CBI's a**. That is the job of the executive, who's failings are in turn held to account by a parliament, in a classic system, where separation of powers actually works.

Most constitutional observers would call these acts of the courts as an over reach of its powers, for they have no business to meddle in executive affairs. If you accept this premise, then this over reach of the courts, no matter how well intended points to a structural failure.

I have seen many, many such statements by many esteemed individuals, which proclaim the problem is NOT the constitution but its implementation. But, I have never seen a credible case that actually builds up on the matter and a case for why our constitution is best suited for our country.

No doubt, good and well intentioned individuals can make something that maybe faulty and make it work but that does not mean the underlying structures are efficient. A Modi or a Nitish Kumar do not prove the efficiency of our structures.

On the other hand, waiting for these good people to come and save us, no matter the structure is playing dice with the Indian people, who deserve better. At least that is the view of quite a few of our constitutional experts, led by my favorite, Subhash Kashyap.
Last edited by ShauryaT on 24 Jun 2011 07:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by somnath »

Less interesting maybe, but apparently the govt is expediting electoral reforms due to the AH threat (at least according to HT)!

http://www.hindustantimes.com/To-trump- ... 12999.aspx

this is the most important change..
disallowing candidates charged with criminal offences punishable with a prison term of five years or more from contesting elections
This is something that EC has been advocating for long, since Lyngdoh's days I think...
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Post by shaardula »

i too am uncomfortable with this pristinity seeking business. because every single reverting to a 'purer state' attempt basically rides on rejecting of all evolution and of rejecting existing reality aka satya. it is not naija aka natural.

i'm not as interested in going to back to vedic times as i'm in india people being as free, confident and original as the those in the vedic times. there have been a lot of people around the world. many many prophets around the world. but how many as original and as profound the indic seers of yore? sure, 'science' has matured since, and moved to higher heights, but if you think about it, what was it that so many such indic seers flourished? and what was it in the air that they studied otherwise arcane topics to such great depth, and came up with such original thoughts - that while it is one, it could be perceived differently; that before it, there was neither it or any thing beyond. etc etc. all of us here have all the basic necessities met. how many of us are deeply bothered by these questions.

i think, if we are worthy successors of those who precede us, then we will mirror their genius within the context that we live in. within the context that we live in, we create the new eternal truths and live/write the contemporary mahabharatha.

on the other hand, trying to demolish our context, will not get us back to the genius of those people. what it worse, it is a cheap imitation of the sterile imagination borne out of a huge desert of this world.

within this context, i think it is natural for hindus to exert their political rights/ambitions and as hindus, just as any other religious group. if you cannot accommodate that and moderate it with maturity, then you are asking for trouble.

there is nothing vulgar about being politically ambitious.
Last edited by shaardula on 24 Jun 2011 07:47, edited 1 time in total.
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