Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Jun 2011 08:38

er No. composites do not react very well to being under fire as a tank certainly will be.

chandanus · Post by **chandanus** » 24 Jun 2011 08:55

Kersi D wrote:
cheenum wrote:..... Russia has suggested that it can make T-90S fire the Brahmos if we make some changes. it has suggested two changes which are both cheap and easily doable.

1) Reduce the weight of Brahmos to 3Kilos from 3 tonnes and makes its diameter 295mm (to be as per MTCR regulations)
2) Modify T-90s main gun barrel to a 300mm barrel.

AND

pay a few million / billion $$$$$s

And as usual.... with Full ToT

!!!!

wig · Post by **wig** » 27 Jun 2011 12:15

More power, fire for T-72

After getting some add-on features to boost its fighting capability, the T-72 tank, which forms the backbone of the Army’s mechanised forces, will be getting more fire and power not only just to drive into battle, but also to engage the enemy in combat.

According to the General Officer Commanding, Kharga Corps, Lt Gen Amarjeet Singh Chabbewal, the T-72 fleet is being refurbished with a more powerful engine and a state-of-the-art fire control system to its armaments’ day and night capability.

At present, the T-72 has a 780 horsepower (hp) engine as compared to the 1,000 hp engine for the T-90 and 1,500 hp of the Arjun. Armoured corps officers are of the view that at least a 1,000 hp engine is required for the T-72.

“Only a specific number of the T-72s, which formed part of later inductions, are being upgraded,” General Chabbewal said.

“The older series would simply be phased out at the end of their stipulated service lifespan,” he added.

Ambala-based Kharga Corps, one of the Army’s three-strike formations, had last month conducted a massive exercise in the desert aimed at validating concepts of rapid mobilisation and incisive assaults in a joint air-land battle environment.

General Chabbewal, who was Commandant of the Armoured School and Center before assuming command of Kharga Corps, said that so far there was no plan to modernise the recently-acquired T-90 tanks. “Any move to upgrade the T-90s would be initiated after a few years,” he said.

The Army has over 40 armoured regiments equipped with 1,600 T-72 tanks and 14 regiments equipped with the T-90. The Army had started inducting the T-72, also called Ajeya, in the 80s.

The Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment, a DRDO laboratory, had earlier initiated the Combat Improved Ajeya Tank project. This involved features like explosive reactive armour for enhancing the tanks’ protection against warheads, global positioning system, integrated fire detection and suppression system and smoke grenade launchers.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2011/20110627/nation.htm#7

Rahul.ka · Post by **Rahul.ka** » 27 Jun 2011 12:17

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/5835/39536497.jpg

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Jun 2011 12:24

very interesting. so weight reduction, elbit kit and cummins engine and french transmission...very interesting indeed.

the "in development for 37 years" is the obligatory western psyops. in that sense the F-16 has also been in dev for 40 years as they keep coming up with new changes

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 27 Jun 2011 12:25

3-4 ton weight reduction is a lot

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Jun 2011 12:28

the transmission is still renk. SESM is a french subsidiary of renk and ESM500 powers the leclerc
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3914.html

cummins qsk38 family seems to be well known in mining, railways and such heavy duty 24x7 applications
http://www.cumminsgdrive.com/?contentID ... egoryID=55
http://cumminsengines.com/every/applica ... _mine.page?

does not seem to be in any MBT yet.

vina · Post by **vina** » 27 Jun 2011 12:45

Singha wrote:cummins qsk38 family seems to be well known in mining, railways and such heavy duty 24x7 applications
http://www.cumminsgdrive.com/?contentID ... egoryID=55
http://cumminsengines.com/every/applica ... _mine.page?

does not seem to be in any MBT yet.

Good if true. That will be one hell of a proven rock solid reliable engine. You cant have it f**k around in heavy duty 24*7 apps . I am not sure though. Specialized tank engines last for 10K kms or so and then are replaced. They sacrifice life for form factor and those engines are not continous rated. This engine is ! I wonder if the form factor will allow it to fit into a tank engine bay.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Jun 2011 12:50

this photo feature seems to indicate its ok, so long as that metal frame supporting block at the bottom is taken out.
http://www.haig-brown.com/hottips/hotip535.htm

some stuff might need squeezing or relocation on the exterior.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Jun 2011 12:55

I wonder why would they change to engine mid way just to get additional 100 HP and not work with MTU to uprate the proven engine and lic produce it , its much simpler and does not add any additional logistics constrains.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Jun 2011 13:24

the arjun engine is out of production isnt it? and the europack someone had posted MTU is only interested if we order 250 or more.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Jun 2011 13:46

Singha wrote:the arjun engine is out of production isnt it? and the europack someone had posted MTU is only interested if we order 250 or more.

It may be out of production there but we can still build it here or lic manf it , like we do for aircraft and engines that are no longer in production in host country.

If the MTU news is true does that mean we wont see series production of Mk2 and it will be restricted to 128 tanks ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Jun 2011 13:57

..or talks could have broken down on cost/TOT issues. maybe cummins is ok with having cummins(india) make this engine, while mtu wants to do it all in germany.
this issue is shrouded in mystery.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Jun 2011 14:09

http://trishul-trident.blogspot.com/201 ... erges.html

Work on developing the Arjun Mk2 began in the second half of 2007 soon after joint R & D contracts were inked between the CVRDE and the consortium of IMI and Elbit Systems. On October 31 that year, the CVRDE floated domestic and global expressions of interest for the co-development of a 1,500hp compact high specific power output diesel engine incorporating a state-of-the-art direct fuel injection system, digital electronic controls, turbo-charging, charge air cooling, safety controls and a pressurised multi-stage air-cleaning system; and for a hydro-kinetic automatic transmission with four forward and two reverse gears. Respondents to the CVRDE included Finland-based Wartsila (offering its V8X-1500 1,500hp hyperbar diesel engine coupled with either SESM of France’s ESM-500 transmission or US-based Detroit Diesel Allison’s X-1100-3B transmission), US-based General Dynamics Land Systems offering the EuroPowerPack comprising MTU of Germany's MT-883 engine along with RENK's HSWL-295TM transmission, UK-based Perkins proposing its CV12 Condor diesel engine coupled to the ESM-500 transmission, and US-based Cummins offering a customised QSK-38 liquid-cooled, direct-injection engine coupled to the ESM-500. In late 2009, a combination of the QSK-38/ESM-500 powerpack was selected as the winner, following which Cummins India began customising this powerpack design. The ESM-500 automatic transmission, with five forward and two reverse gears, contains a planetary gearbox with shifting, steering and braking systems. It is also equipped with a hydrodynamic steering system, which allows different turning radii depending on engine speed and selected gear. The braking system contains of two stages. As a parking brake and for a speed of up to 35kph air cooled disk brakes are used. At higher speeds a retarder is used. In addition, the transmission is equipped with a power takeoff for the cooling fans of the powerpack. Also, a hydrokinetic retarder can slow the MBT down at a decelleration rate of 7 metres/square second (0.7g), which can be very useful at the last moment before it could be hit. Supplementing this powerpack will be an indigenously developed auxiliary power unit (APU), which will provide power when the MBT is on ‘silent watch’ for battery recharging and night observation, with full systems operating while the main engine is shut down.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Jun 2011 14:12

we have taken engine change calls before. the IJT flew with Larzac engine. and though Larzac was offered with a higher thrust version, we selected the AL55 engine which was still in development.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 27 Jun 2011 14:18

FI Tank Archives

I got this compiled. Can copy and paste the codes in BR too if its ok. Ramana can tell.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 27 Jun 2011 15:26

Singha wrote:http://trishul-trident.blogspot.com/201 ... erges.html
Respondents to the CVRDE included Finland-based Wartsila (offering its V8X-1500 1,500hp hyperbar diesel engine coupled with either SESM of France’s ESM-500 transmission or US-based Detroit Diesel Allison’s X-1100-3B transmission), US-based General Dynamics Land Systems offering the EuroPowerPack comprising MTU of Germany's MT-883 engine along with RENK's HSWL-295TM transmission, UK-based Perkins proposing its CV12 Condor diesel engine coupled to the ESM-500 transmission, and US-based Cummins offering a customised QSK-38 liquid-cooled, direct-injection engine coupled to the ESM-500. In late 2009, a combination of the QSK-38/ESM-500 powerpack was selected as the winner, following which Cummins India began customising this powerpack design.

Of all these companies, Cummins has by-far the best local supplier chain in India thanks to it's joint venture with Tata et al. So, there should be a good percentage of local components in the engine in addition to the fact that the engine will be manufactured here. Whether the Mark-2 undergoing trails actually has the Cummins engine is not clear from the article.

Also, all other contenders had their engines running on an MBT except Cummins. So, CVRDE should have had some concrete reasons for selecting it.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 27 Jun 2011 15:52

KrishG wrote: Also, all other contenders had their engines running on an MBT except Cummins. So, CVRDE should have had some concrete reasons for selecting it.

Let's hope that it's not another CBI investigatable reason

It will kill the program for good.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 27 Jun 2011 16:13

IIRC, Kirloskar Cummings was considered long back too. it had certain issues (i cannot recollect). Some one remembers it from late 1990's?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Jun 2011 16:18

it could be as simple as generating the most work for CVRDE vs other more finished products

not a bad thing if it builds expertise and delivers a working soln....and start scaling down from 1500hp to smaller engines for other applications.

vic · Post by **vic** » 27 Jun 2011 16:23

I think Trishul articles have been usually bulls1t. MTU may see reason if we offer JV for new engine considering that its chances of massive orders from US for 883 * 893 series have died

vic · Post by **vic** » 27 Jun 2011 16:26

Rahul.ka wrote:http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/5835/39536497.jpg

Frankly I cannot digest this articles, seems bunkum

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 27 Jun 2011 17:11

pandyan wrote:Another aspect that DRDO needs to focus on is visual changes to create an illusion of compactness.

Umm why would that be useful on a tank?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Jun 2011 17:40

vic wrote:Frankly I cannot digest this articles, seems bunkum

Are you saying you don't know Rahul Bedi?

And.. that trishul website is from Prasun Sengupta.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Jun 2011 19:14

oncd in a while even people you dont trust tell the absolute truth

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 27 Jun 2011 19:18

rahul bedi and prasun are 2 sides of the same coin.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Jun 2011 19:54

Singha, that would be nice from a perspective of wishful thinking.. however, we shall keep our finger's crossed till we here more on the other awesome things he says - about the kanchan composite armor weight reduction.. that is amazing or too good to be true, whatever that means in terms of tonnage-

have developed multi-layered multi-functional fibre-reinforced polymer (FRP) composite hull/turret sub-structures at much lower weights in comparison with metallic counterparts. More than 40 per cent weight savings over steel hull structures have been achieved.more than 40 per cent weight savings over steel hull structures have been achieved.

sandwiching composite panels (ceramic, alumina, fibre-glass and nickel-alloy) between rolled homogenous armour (RHA) plates to defeat APFDS or HEAT rounds.

Also developed for the Arjun Mk2 is co-cured composites integral armour (CIA), which comprises ceramic tiles and rubber sandwiched between two FRP composites layers. While the outer FRP composite layer acts as a cover and provides confinement, the ceramic layer provides primary protection against ballistic impact, and the inner FRP composite layer acts as the structural part as well as secondary energy absorbing mechanism. The rubber layer isolates stiff and brittle ceramic tiles from structural member.

these are awesome to read!!!

all the t-XX types of enemy tanks must be chippindi shivering.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Jun 2011 21:43

Record purchase of 44 tanks, 2 helicopters for Bangladesh army

The Main Battle Tanks (MBT-2000) and the ARVs will be bought from China, and the helicopters from France through government-to-government deals, which were recently signed. Besides, a process is on to buy 18 brand new cannons.

The purchases would be done from the budgetary allocations for the army, said government sources.

The government increased the allocation for the armed forces.

"The tanks will be bought through a government to government deal ensuring maximum transparency," Master General of Ordnance (MGO) of Bangladesh Army Maj Gen Abdul Matin told The Daily Star yesterday (June 26).

"The purchase is being done as a part of modernisation of the Bangladesh Army," he said adding that the tanks will be delivered in phases over a span of 27 months. In the first phase 24 tanks will come within 20 months, and the rest will come in the second phase over the next 7 months.

The payment for the purchase will be made in phases over the next eight years, said the major general.

Maj Gen (retd) Amin Ahmed Chowdhury told The Daily Star that through this purchase, the military of the country will definitely get a boost.

"If the authorities concerned that would supply the tanks share transfer of technologies then it would work."

Mag Gen Abdul Matin however said the Chinese government will provide training to technicians of Bangladesh Army in China and in Bangladesh for a good period of time so that the tanks and ARVs could be maintained properly. The training will be free of charge, he said adding that the China would also give adequate spare parts of the tanks.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Jun 2011 21:51

yeah... so, what can we do about it? only way is to do a counter sale to possible anti-china, or pro India countries.

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 27 Jun 2011 23:32

Who cares? They will just serve as target practice for IA. Unless BA procures tanks in large numbers, they will end up being target practice and Bangladesh continues to waste money on procuring weapon systems that practically does nothing for its defenses. They would have been better off by buying better surveillance equipment or more jeeps or all terrain COIN vehicles.

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 28 Jun 2011 00:10

Isn't Bangladesh pro-India or atleast on friendly terms ?

I guess if we had a comparable tank to sell (I am talking about cheaper, low tech stuff that BA would want not Arjun class) then I guess we could have sold then to BA. If HAL can ramp up ALH production, then we could atleast sell some helis to them, or we could sell stuff like that BMP based 105mm SPH that OFB created. (just saying) If we cannot make Bangladesh comfortable about being friendly, then there are some serious flaws in our foreign policy.

P.S. We could have diverted some of t-90's (stripped down versions) to BA and ordered more Arjuns. This way tin can lovers can save ruskies would be kept happy and Arjun could get much needed orders.

UBanerjee · Post by **UBanerjee** » 28 Jun 2011 01:40

Around any large dog, there are small jackals hanging around nipping at its heels

Around India there are all these small jackals and BD is one of them, esp. as it has after all a civilizational divide due to Religion of Peace

There are plenty of small jackals around China & US & Russia as well, although the US has controlled its neighborhood from the start due to hemispheric advantage.

disha · Post by **disha** » 28 Jun 2011 07:51

Austin wrote:Record purchase of 44 tanks, 2 helicopters for Bangladesh army

Great! Now injuns can have a lookie-lookie at those tanks. Maybe even have one with comparable trials with Arjun.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Jun 2011 08:45

BD army is on friendly terms with India now. dozens of rascal terrorists incl ulfa leaders have been handed over in last 5 years . so nothing much to worry - ofcourse it would be better we sold them their equipment - we can certainly supply helicopters and divert some upgraded T72 or T90 from our own production line...same for 105mm guns. CG vessels are another area.

things like ground surveillance radar, night vision kits and SIGINT gear could be useful for them to protect the border.

but I think delhi has some wierd policy not to sell arms to BD, which gives the chinese a needless foothold.

we did sell arms and training to nepal, maldives and bhutan, but SL and BD seem to be governed by a different set of rules in delhi.

its time we integrated them deeply into indian economy and heavily armed them as the guardians of our eastern and southern doors. suppose if BD were to open its bases to our use in a Indo-China conflict, the strategic value of being able to fly across BD airspace and use their airbases would be immense.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 28 Jun 2011 09:21

India transferred nice little T-55s and 105 mm to Myanmar, not so long ago.

BD tanks are essentially meant to show the BD army as being better equipped and more prestigious than any 'paramilitary'. we all know the recent history of army-paramilitary relationships in BD.

from af'stan to Darfur we have also seen that tanks have proved rather useful for quashing internal 'dissent' when the rules of engagement are not so tight. Not to mention Chicom's imaginative use of tanks in 1989.

Also, there is the BD-Myanmar military balance. Chicom's doing most of that right now.

From Chicom angle - they need to show their 'export' strength and that means getting some allies to buy tanks and planes while paying them off for the same via some infrastructure project.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 28 Jun 2011 09:28

^^ Same for Burma. Thailand and Indonesia have slipped away already. In the context of a border, Thailand and Indonesia share a sea border with India. Our look east should have had Thailand, the Malay peninsula and Indonesia in our grips, but Delhi is sleeping.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Jun 2011 09:53

we have cordial relations now with myanmar,thailand,malaysia and indonesia. not military allies by any means but reasonably ok and tied to with the ASEAN FTA - this benefits thailand and malaysia the most. they also host a lot of indian tourists which is a growing market - earlier the australians used to be quite prominent but india is 100x larger potential in footfalls.

hopefully the PRC will slap around ASEAN on the south china sea issue and drive them closer to our tent

UBanerjee · Post by **UBanerjee** » 28 Jun 2011 10:47

Singha wrote:
its time we integrated them deeply into indian economy and heavily armed them as the guardians of our eastern and southern doors. suppose if BD were to open its bases to our use in a Indo-China conflict, the strategic value of being able to fly across BD airspace and use their airbases would be immense.

Doesn't this get a bit worrying though between Chittagong and arms sales from Chini

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 29 Jun 2011 15:35

As I see in some program invites I get, Arjun Tank has begun becoming the poster boy of armour in India. Looks awesome in brochures etc. Just an OT comment.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Jun 2011 16:07

hopefully with a slanted turret and hebrew lettering in Mk2 will look even more tfta. so what if a elta technician just stencilled in "yakov loves ramona"