>> Why are we so obsessed with fighting PLAN in their backyard
because it always better to fight in the enemy's backyard than our own. once the PLAN builds up adequate nos of 093 and 094 subs they are going to be prowling all over the IOR (the bottom half of the IOR is a deep and wide ocean with few islands and represents a ideal SSBN patrol area compared to the "green water" and 1000s of islands in the west pacific) and 093 Shang SSNs will be calling in on karachi and gwader just to prove a point and make us dhoti shiver.
we need to send submarines into the south and east china seas (just as the americans developed the long haul gato and balao class subs in WW2 and took the war into japanese home waters), we need to make friendly calls and do passage exercises with vietnam, taiwan and japan - SSN/SSK-new sailing with surface groups for exercises there. we need to map every sq inch of those oceans and surge in for the fight if the chinese hit us on the tibet front. a few missiles to start with fired at the hainan naval base for instance will have the dolittle kind of raid psyops impact and force them to shorten and tighten their defence lines rather than go on all out offense in the bay of bengal. likewise Brahmos/Nirbhay fired on a few coastal large power stations will hurt them where it hurts most - their mainland economy. they would not really care about damage inflicted in tibet because the media can be kept away from it - but a flaming power plant on the coast cannot be hidden - massive loss of face.
Indian Naval Discussion
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
China has nuclear submarine lead of 3 decades over us , so they have a much mature industry that can develop subs and newer design.
Right now and in foreseeable future IN submarine asset are bare minimal to protect it own asset and IN does not have assets that can support long ASW warfare in enemy turf backed by sufficient number of qualitatively and quantitatively better platform , worst IN gets under 15 % of total defense expenditure.
The best we can hope for is 24 conventional sub by 2030 as Naval Office has planned.
One cant compare the rise of PLAN and its state defense budget to that of IN , and ex Navy Chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta mentioned that we wont be able to match china on that front and he was speaking the truth.
So the best option with smaller assets is to protect its own turf and make sure PLAN sub prowling in IOR do not hunt us down and if they try it they are given a bloody response.
As far as exercises goes these are fine every country does with every other country these days to hone their skill and develop mutual understanding that can be useful in mission like pirate hunting , disaster management , rescue etc
Right now and in foreseeable future IN submarine asset are bare minimal to protect it own asset and IN does not have assets that can support long ASW warfare in enemy turf backed by sufficient number of qualitatively and quantitatively better platform , worst IN gets under 15 % of total defense expenditure.
The best we can hope for is 24 conventional sub by 2030 as Naval Office has planned.
One cant compare the rise of PLAN and its state defense budget to that of IN , and ex Navy Chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta mentioned that we wont be able to match china on that front and he was speaking the truth.
So the best option with smaller assets is to protect its own turf and make sure PLAN sub prowling in IOR do not hunt us down and if they try it they are given a bloody response.
As far as exercises goes these are fine every country does with every other country these days to hone their skill and develop mutual understanding that can be useful in mission like pirate hunting , disaster management , rescue etc
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
I looked at the depths of the various straits around Indonesia. The rough data is as follows.
Strait, location, average depth (m), Width ( Km), Approx distance from Port Blair ( Km)
1. Mallacca, North & East of Sumatra, 25 5 - 300, 600 northern end --- 1400 southern
2. Sunda, Between Sumatra & Java, 18, 3-4, 2400
3. Lombok, South of Java, between Bali & lombok, 250 - 350, 10-15, 3400
4. Ombai, North-West of East Timor, Very Deep Sections 3250, 10-100, 5000
5. Timor Passage, South of East Timor & North Of Australia, 200 (avg) Timor Trough 3300, Wide sea, 5200
Apart from these there are quite a few straits between Lombok & Ombai, which can be used for movement. Also the Sunda trench, which has a maximum depth of 7200 m ( avg > 1000m), is 2600 km long, runs the entire length of Indonesian Island chain, almost parallel to it. Is 200-300 km away from the Indonesian coast. In the north it reaches into the Andaman Sea. Moreover these Straits are part of what is called the Indonesian Throughflow, which is the flow of Warm, Less saline Pacific waters into the Colder, Saline Indian Ocean. Hence good Thermoclines, difficult for ASW.
From the above data, it is clear that both PLAN & IN would need to go through these gates to move into each others area. Now any movement of Surface ship flotilla would be immediately known and counter can be prepared. The other option is to pre-base flotilla in each others backyard. But that too would be a known quantity and hence planned for to counter. In this regard PLAN is better placed, as South China is a closed sea, hence any IN flotilla based there can be located by air assets. However in case of PLAN basing in Gwadar, etc. the Arabian Sea is open and provides direct open access to Indian Ocean, hence greater difficulty for IN to search for them.
So the better option is Submarine. But the very low depth of Mallacca & Sunda Strait means that Subs would have difficulty in using them to break out. Can this be done, of course, but difficult to keep hidden in these narrow & shallow straits. Hence the other straits become more important. But the huge distance involved for these means that diesel electrics would lack the lungs to go, cross them and move into the suoth china sea, or vice-versa into the Indian Ocean. Hence the importance of SSN or very Large SSK.
For PLAN Subs, once they cross the straits, 200 km away is deep waters of Sunda Trench, which they simply follow to move into the Andaman Sea. Also once they cross the straits they can head out to open Indian Ocean. But for IN subs, once they cross the straits and move into the Southern part of the South china sea, the sea is generally shallow at 50-60 m. Its the northern part of the South china sea which is deep with avg depth > 4000 m. So IN subs once they cross straits, would have to further move 1400- 2500 km ( depending on route taken ) to reach deep waters. Moreover unlike the Arabian Sea, Bay of Bengal & Northern Indian ocean, the South china sea is dotted with Islands, which PLAN can use to augment its ASW efforts.
I hope this information would help us in further debating on how to use our assets in offense & what possible options we have to counter PLAN.
Strait, location, average depth (m), Width ( Km), Approx distance from Port Blair ( Km)
1. Mallacca, North & East of Sumatra, 25 5 - 300, 600 northern end --- 1400 southern
2. Sunda, Between Sumatra & Java, 18, 3-4, 2400
3. Lombok, South of Java, between Bali & lombok, 250 - 350, 10-15, 3400
4. Ombai, North-West of East Timor, Very Deep Sections 3250, 10-100, 5000
5. Timor Passage, South of East Timor & North Of Australia, 200 (avg) Timor Trough 3300, Wide sea, 5200
Apart from these there are quite a few straits between Lombok & Ombai, which can be used for movement. Also the Sunda trench, which has a maximum depth of 7200 m ( avg > 1000m), is 2600 km long, runs the entire length of Indonesian Island chain, almost parallel to it. Is 200-300 km away from the Indonesian coast. In the north it reaches into the Andaman Sea. Moreover these Straits are part of what is called the Indonesian Throughflow, which is the flow of Warm, Less saline Pacific waters into the Colder, Saline Indian Ocean. Hence good Thermoclines, difficult for ASW.
From the above data, it is clear that both PLAN & IN would need to go through these gates to move into each others area. Now any movement of Surface ship flotilla would be immediately known and counter can be prepared. The other option is to pre-base flotilla in each others backyard. But that too would be a known quantity and hence planned for to counter. In this regard PLAN is better placed, as South China is a closed sea, hence any IN flotilla based there can be located by air assets. However in case of PLAN basing in Gwadar, etc. the Arabian Sea is open and provides direct open access to Indian Ocean, hence greater difficulty for IN to search for them.
So the better option is Submarine. But the very low depth of Mallacca & Sunda Strait means that Subs would have difficulty in using them to break out. Can this be done, of course, but difficult to keep hidden in these narrow & shallow straits. Hence the other straits become more important. But the huge distance involved for these means that diesel electrics would lack the lungs to go, cross them and move into the suoth china sea, or vice-versa into the Indian Ocean. Hence the importance of SSN or very Large SSK.
For PLAN Subs, once they cross the straits, 200 km away is deep waters of Sunda Trench, which they simply follow to move into the Andaman Sea. Also once they cross the straits they can head out to open Indian Ocean. But for IN subs, once they cross the straits and move into the Southern part of the South china sea, the sea is generally shallow at 50-60 m. Its the northern part of the South china sea which is deep with avg depth > 4000 m. So IN subs once they cross straits, would have to further move 1400- 2500 km ( depending on route taken ) to reach deep waters. Moreover unlike the Arabian Sea, Bay of Bengal & Northern Indian ocean, the South china sea is dotted with Islands, which PLAN can use to augment its ASW efforts.
I hope this information would help us in further debating on how to use our assets in offense & what possible options we have to counter PLAN.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
PLAN would no doubt place SOSUS type arrays in necklaces and rings around vital areas. they might even put some at the northern and southern outlets of each of these IOR-pacific openings to record and analyze what is passing below the waves...that sounds like something USN would done already using its dedicated special ops submarines like "parche" or jimmy carter seawolf.
likewise we need to get in there and atleast wire up the southern outlets, with feed running to port blair CINC room. the need for large submarine and LRMP base in nicobar islands is paramount as it helps shorten the transit one way by 1500km compared to staging out of vizag or tambaram or rameswaram. the submarine base can be for replenishment (food, fuel, weapons, fresh crews), minor repairs only, major base would in vizag.
offense is the best defence. there are way too many soft spots to defend adequately, and the enemy just needs to get successful once or twice to score major victories. impose the same thing on him and increase his risk...else he is comfortable with his backyard unmolested and free to pinprick and run rings in our own backyard at will.
likewise we need to get in there and atleast wire up the southern outlets, with feed running to port blair CINC room. the need for large submarine and LRMP base in nicobar islands is paramount as it helps shorten the transit one way by 1500km compared to staging out of vizag or tambaram or rameswaram. the submarine base can be for replenishment (food, fuel, weapons, fresh crews), minor repairs only, major base would in vizag.
offense is the best defence. there are way too many soft spots to defend adequately, and the enemy just needs to get successful once or twice to score major victories. impose the same thing on him and increase his risk...else he is comfortable with his backyard unmolested and free to pinprick and run rings in our own backyard at will.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Good point and that is the reason i say its not easy for submarine conventional or nuclear to fight a lonely battle in their backyard which besides the advantage of depth and small island will have surface ships , ASW aircraft and land based asset that a lone sub will have to deal with.bmallick wrote:For PLAN Subs, once they cross the straits, 200 km away is deep waters of Sunda Trench, which they simply follow to move into the Andaman Sea. Also once they cross the straits they can head out to open Indian Ocean. But for IN subs, once they cross the straits and move into the Southern part of the South china sea, the sea is generally shallow at 50-60 m. Its the northern part of the South china sea which is deep with avg depth > 4000 m. So IN subs once they cross straits, would have to further move 1400- 2500 km ( depending on route taken ) to reach deep waters. Moreover unlike the Arabian Sea, Bay of Bengal & Northern Indian ocean, the South china sea is dotted with Islands, which PLAN can use to augment its ASW efforts.
I hope this information would help us in further debating on how to use our assets in offense & what possible options we have to counter PLAN.
You will have to assist the sub with other assets to fight its way out if required something which we cannot really do or sustain and we will have to fight our way out , we cant expect NATO/US/ASEAN to back us up in military conflict with china the best we can hope for some pro-UN resolution if at all and some peace talks.
At best a lone sub or two might be lucky to achieve some spectacular strikes at key PLAN assets and at worst we might just loose good sub and her crew before she can achieve her task and sprint away , the balance in those areas heavily favor PLAN.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Wonder how the Germans goofed up so big with regards to the U214's. The Germans are supposed to be the best when it comes to conventional subramines keeping in mind their long experience.Marut wrote:Singha,
wrt to Greek U214s, there were some fundamental issues with AIP and also the surface sea-keeping abilities and such things, the sub couldn't maintain its level or rolled excessively, etc. These things took a long time to be sorted out by germans over many rounds of back & forth with the greeks.
A full review of the design by our own experts, IN DND & others, should be a pre-requisite before we even think of acquiring them. ThyseenKrupp should provide all the drawings and design data for this effort. If TKM acts smart, they can go fish somewhere else. I don't want us to be saddled with something that was flawed to begin with and has been corrected with innumerable band aids. The long term consequences will be very detrimental with such an approach to design.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
the baltic sea has pretty hostile weather in winter...the footage I have seen of FFG/CG type in winter there is pretty scary. looking into the issue, it seems the U212 (which germans kept for themselves with best kit) and export U214 are very different beasts both in internal layout and hull shape incl tailfins. the U214 is a upscaled and modernized U209 in form and shape, the U212 is a different beast.
so no wonder it runs without reported stability issues while U214 got the shaft through incomplete testing.
a huge comparison image here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mateus27_2 ... otostream/
just compare - the U212 is way more tfta looking and SSNish/Kiloish shape compared to the U214/U209 which have 70s era shapes only seen in the british SSNs these days.
those siemens PEM fuel cells are allegedly the best AIP tech at present and it was alleged IN wants them not MESMA hence didnt take that aip option on scorpene deal, navantia for S80A claims to be working on another tech per the scribd link I posted yesterday.
so no wonder it runs without reported stability issues while U214 got the shaft through incomplete testing.
a huge comparison image here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mateus27_2 ... otostream/
just compare - the U212 is way more tfta looking and SSNish/Kiloish shape compared to the U214/U209 which have 70s era shapes only seen in the british SSNs these days.
those siemens PEM fuel cells are allegedly the best AIP tech at present and it was alleged IN wants them not MESMA hence didnt take that aip option on scorpene deal, navantia for S80A claims to be working on another tech per the scribd link I posted yesterday.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Putting Sosus type array around the outlets for PLAN is difficult and problamatic, because most of these straits and outlets are fortunately for us with-in the territorial waters of countries other than China. Hence, PLAN placing arrays there is out of question. Even placing a surface ship or flotilla there is out of question. PLANs best option is to put a submarine near the straits if they want to block our movement. Also because of the distance involved & the territorial integrity of other countries, PLAN cannot move its MPA in the straits. If I were PLAN, I would rather patrol the Southern part of South China sea, which is shallow and IN subs have to go through to reach anywhere near my shores. Also patrolling Souther South China sea would also mean I am operating out of anybodies territorial waters.
I agree with Austin, sending lone subs or couple of subs in South China sea would be froth with unwarranted risk. A sub is not like a small SF detachment operating behind enemy lines. Its one thing for a group of 4-8 people to hide and entirely different to hide a sub when it is shallow waters of 50-60 m .
If you want to fight in South China sea, you need a big flotilla around a carrier, with a really long logistics chain, running through narrow gateways. Once PLAN knows about the flotilla in the South China sea, it would definitely sends its subs to choke the straits, to block the logistics, the arteries feeding the flotilla. Once the supply dries up even if for a few days, the flotilla would have to start conserving fuel, ammunition etc. If it runs of something game over. So this means once we send the flotilla in south china sea, we would have to send forces to defend the straits actively and ensure it is not blocked. PLAN sub need not sink a Indian Supply ship to stop logistics. One or two large merchant ships sunk in the narrow, shallow Mallacca strait would mean the channel if not blocked would become treacherous to navigate. You would have a traffic jam in one of the busiest sea lanes of the world. So what does this mean? It means that we would have to defend the strait on the other side of us, in the straits opening in the south china sea it self.
Thus for any significant operation in South China sea, we need a big flotilla in the sea to fight and quite a few smaller flotillas to defend the straits and keep them open.
It would be better to have a base itself in the South China sea. Cam rann Bay has been pointed out by quite a few posters here. However as I have pointed out in an earlier post of mine, it would be really difficult option for Vietnam to provide us base, because when we are confronting china in south china sea, the specter of PLA invasion on Vietnam's norther borders would always be hanging over their head. Hence better option is Singapore. Even better option is to have deep Defense relation & agreements with Indonesia. A base in Indonesia would provide us access to South China sea, also all the straits for movement of PLAN & Chinese shipping are Indonesian Territorial waters.
I agree with Austin, sending lone subs or couple of subs in South China sea would be froth with unwarranted risk. A sub is not like a small SF detachment operating behind enemy lines. Its one thing for a group of 4-8 people to hide and entirely different to hide a sub when it is shallow waters of 50-60 m .
If you want to fight in South China sea, you need a big flotilla around a carrier, with a really long logistics chain, running through narrow gateways. Once PLAN knows about the flotilla in the South China sea, it would definitely sends its subs to choke the straits, to block the logistics, the arteries feeding the flotilla. Once the supply dries up even if for a few days, the flotilla would have to start conserving fuel, ammunition etc. If it runs of something game over. So this means once we send the flotilla in south china sea, we would have to send forces to defend the straits actively and ensure it is not blocked. PLAN sub need not sink a Indian Supply ship to stop logistics. One or two large merchant ships sunk in the narrow, shallow Mallacca strait would mean the channel if not blocked would become treacherous to navigate. You would have a traffic jam in one of the busiest sea lanes of the world. So what does this mean? It means that we would have to defend the strait on the other side of us, in the straits opening in the south china sea it self.
Thus for any significant operation in South China sea, we need a big flotilla in the sea to fight and quite a few smaller flotillas to defend the straits and keep them open.
It would be better to have a base itself in the South China sea. Cam rann Bay has been pointed out by quite a few posters here. However as I have pointed out in an earlier post of mine, it would be really difficult option for Vietnam to provide us base, because when we are confronting china in south china sea, the specter of PLA invasion on Vietnam's norther borders would always be hanging over their head. Hence better option is Singapore. Even better option is to have deep Defense relation & agreements with Indonesia. A base in Indonesia would provide us access to South China sea, also all the straits for movement of PLAN & Chinese shipping are Indonesian Territorial waters.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
in some respects the indonesian archipelago is to indo-chinese naval strategies the analogy of the himalayas for army strategies... a state of ugly deterrence exists whereby it is too costly for either side to up the ante to dominate the other over these geographical barriers
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
PLAN slapping around all the south china sea claimants in a show of force would ease our entry into mutual-defence aggreements..but they are playing the game smartly, giving lots of trade to these countries, while threatening them in parallel.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
symontk wrote:Just a thought
I am visualizing a scenario where India has Aircraft carrier, supply ship & Submarine tender which are nuke powered. Also we have some patrol subs running on AIP with backup diesel generators. In this scenario, can the subs battery recharged by connecting to AC or Supply Ship or Submarine tender? By this, subs need not use the diesel generators at all and need not be nuke powered and thus increasing safety and stealth
We can have separte nuke subs for strategic purposes
Is this possible?
Yes, the subs batteries can be fully charged using the DC generators on the tender.
Any supply ship or even a carrier is quite unlikely to carry the required and very specialized charging equipment.
These generators are really big mothers, capable of charging batteries with capacities from from 30,000 AH onwards.
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chackojoseph
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion
The Greek complaints were finally discovered to be mostly bogus and concealed the fact that Greece was bankrupt and couldn't pay for them! The sub's design could be easily stiudied and if found fit acquired.Don't forget that the Koreans also operate the same subs in large number.Their performance with AIP has been lauded by many experts.Since we already operate 4 U-209s and are to upgrade them,is would be a sensible decision to acquire more U-boats of advanced design,as we did build/assemble them in the '80s. The Scorpenes and U-boats are smaller than the Kilos and are better suited for littoral warfare as hunter-killers.MD could easily build them in a second line,while the Brahmos armed larger subs of 3000t+ could be an Indo-Russian-Italian-whatever design meant for trans-ocean operations.Oz is also planning to build larger subs than their Collins class for the same purpose,greater range,longer endurance and increased weaponry.This line could also carry Nirbhay in larger tubes (like Israeli Dolphins) and be built in a private shipyard.We also need two simultaneous lines of indigenous N-subs.both SSBNs and SSGNs .L&T could build the SSGN line and the larger AIP/B'Mos conventional sub.China is to have 100 subs including 24 N-subs by 2025 according to latest intelligence! We need between 36-48 at least to deter both China and Pak.
Was this posted?
India to spend Rs 10,000 cr on Karwar naval base expansion
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 932342.cms
Was this posted?
India to spend Rs 10,000 cr on Karwar naval base expansion
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 932342.cms
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
French firm eyes Indian market for Gowind
The company plans to pitch its Mistral class – two of which it sold to Russia on Friday – when Indian Navy floats the tender even as it hopes to make headway in securing contract for the second line of six Scorpene submarines and 6 ships under project 17A.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
more than cargo, the need for ASW sea control helicopter ships is important - something like a fast 32knot downsized Wasp class with airwing of 20 NH90/S-92 helis tasked for ASW and limited anti-ship strike would be a good accompaniment to surface action groups.
mistral can do this role, but a leaner more warlike beast like wasp class would be imo more suited?
mistral can do this role, but a leaner more warlike beast like wasp class would be imo more suited?
Last edited by Singha on 23 Jun 2011 15:18, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Thursday, June 23, 2011
Vikramaditya new photo
http://igorrgroup.blogspot.com/2011/06/ ... photo.html
Vikramaditya new photo
http://igorrgroup.blogspot.com/2011/06/ ... photo.html
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
http://pics.livejournal.com/kuleshovoleg/pic/00031h43/
New picture of INS Vikramaditya
Sorry if posted earlier
New picture of INS Vikramaditya
Sorry if posted earlier
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chackojoseph
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Is the Navy sure that the boat will not have another 6 month delay.karan_mc wrote:India to get Nerpa Akula-II N-submarine this year: Official
If it is the nerpa that we are getting then she was undergoing sea trials in November 2008 when she had the fire that killed 20 people and injured 41 others.
Since then the proposed in service date with the IN will be Oct 2011. That is almost 3 years of trials and training for the IN crew.
Lets hope that the IN has trained enough people and developed the doctrine for her effective employment.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
As Singha already pointed out, U214 is very different from U212. The 214s being export model were downgraded quite a bit in systems & technology as well as structural shape. This basically meant it was a new sub! Greeks were the very first customers of the U214. The first sub built was essentially a prototype, which basically proved the design calculation, simulations etc. to be not so accurate! Hence the fracas between Greece and Germany.Will wrote:Wonder how the Germans goofed up so big with regards to the U214's. The Germans are supposed to be the best when it comes to conventional subramines keeping in mind their long experience.Marut wrote:Singha,
wrt to Greek U214s, there were some fundamental issues with AIP and also the surface sea-keeping abilities and such things, the sub couldn't maintain its level or rolled excessively, etc. These things took a long time to be sorted out by germans over many rounds of back & forth with the greeks.
A full review of the design by our own experts, IN DND & others, should be a pre-requisite before we even think of acquiring them. ThyseenKrupp should provide all the drawings and design data for this effort. If TKM acts smart, they can go fish somewhere else. I don't want us to be saddled with something that was flawed to begin with and has been corrected with innumerable band aids. The long term consequences will be very detrimental with such an approach to design.
IMO, it holds a lesson for us to not buy any such mil hardware which may end up being a prototype without having the design data evaluated by us and factoring in the time & cost of proofing the design before the batch production begins.
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putnanja
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Ship-borne MiG-29KUB jet for Indian Navy crashes in Russia
Moscow, Jun 23 (PTI)
A ship-borne MiG-29KUB fighter/ trainer, which was for the Indian Navy as part of the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier deal, crashed in south Russian Astrakhan region today, killing its two-member crew, a media report said.
The Russian Defence Ministry has grounded the entire MiG-29 fleet till the probe is over, its official spokesman Colonel Igor Konashenkov told reporters.
The MiG-29KUB fighter/trainer was for the Indian Navy as part of the Gorshkov aircraft carrier deal, Interfax news agency quoted MiG Corporation sources as saying.
According to MiG spokesperson Elena Fyodorova, who confirmed that the ill-fated fighter belonged to the plant, said a team headed by its General Director is rushing to Astrakhan region to assist the military in probe.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
mig-29kub meant for vik crashes in russia during testing, killing both pilots.
http://translate.google.com/translate?j ... gupal.html
btw,
http://translate.google.com/translate?j ... gupal.html
btw,
According to the project retrofitting an aircraft carrier, which must be passed to India in late 2012, on his deck, you can simultaneously accommodate 34 aircraft - 21 MiG-29K fighters and 13 helicopters.
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putnanja
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion
^^^Deccan herald is carrying that story, posted it two mins before you did 
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
^^^^Here we go
Ship-borne MiG-29KUB jet for Indian Navy crashes in Russia
Ship-borne MiG-29KUB jet for Indian Navy crashes in Russia
From Vinay Shukla Moscow, Jun 23 (PTI) A ship-borne MiG-29KUB fighter/ trainer, which was for the Indian Navy as part of the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier deal, crashed in south Russian Astrakhan region today, killing its two-member crew, a media report said.The Russian Defence Ministry has grounded the entire MiG-29 fleet till the probe is over, its official spokesman Colonel Igor Konashenkov told reporters.The MiG-29KUB fighter/trainer was for the Indian Navy as part of the Gorshkov aircraft carrier deal, Interfax news agency quoted MiG Corporation sources as saying.According to MiG spokesperson Elena Fyodorova, who confirmed that the ill-fated fighter belonged to the plant, said a team headed by its General Director is rushing to Astrakhan region to assist the military in probe.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
I hope that none of the Crew killed was Indian.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Article may be same, but the emphasis is not.putnanja wrote:^^^Deccan herald is carrying that story, posted it two mins before you did
Please refer to the specifics highlighted by Rahul
That is quite a bit of air power and asw complement of heli.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
got a good look at a U212 via discovery channel baltic coasts program. its quite a small sub though fatter in diameter compared to older kit of similar length. the door at base of sail opens facing forward and is like a clamshell door of hatchback car. there is a enclosed observation deck.
the crew is only 28. the interior is good looking but quite cramped vs the footage one sees of american SSN control room in movies. crew being small they multitask - the sonar operator was also bolting on some deck plate over a recess housing the mooring peg.
and I didnt see evidence of rubber anechoic tiles. maybe the baltic and north sea doesnt need those or maybe to save cost and opex.
bottomline - completely useless even to sortie from vizag and fight off the south coast of indonesia.
the crew is only 28. the interior is good looking but quite cramped vs the footage one sees of american SSN control room in movies. crew being small they multitask - the sonar operator was also bolting on some deck plate over a recess housing the mooring peg.
and I didnt see evidence of rubber anechoic tiles. maybe the baltic and north sea doesnt need those or maybe to save cost and opex.
bottomline - completely useless even to sortie from vizag and fight off the south coast of indonesia.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
none were but still a sad news. the crew was quite an experienced one.Pratyush wrote:I hope that none of the Crew killed was Indian.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
putnanja wrote:Ship-borne MiG-29KUB jet for Indian Navy crashes in Russia
Moscow, Jun 23 (PTI)
A ship-borne MiG-29KUB fighter/ trainer, which was for the Indian Navy as part of the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier deal, crashed in south Russian Astrakhan region today, killing its two-member crew, a media report said.
The Russian Defence Ministry has grounded the entire MiG-29 fleet till the probe is over, its official spokesman Colonel Igor Konashenkov told reporters.
The MiG-29KUB fighter/trainer was for the Indian Navy as part of the Gorshkov aircraft carrier deal, Interfax news agency quoted MiG Corporation sources as saying.
According to MiG spokesperson Elena Fyodorova, who confirmed that the ill-fated fighter belonged to the plant, said a team headed by its General Director is rushing to Astrakhan region to assist the military in probe.
What is the chance that its ia fake story released in media...so as to further delay the handover of MiG 29 nw ...as the russians will be looking for ways to avenge the MMRCA rejection... also ...what is the proof that mishap happened onboard NEPRA
??Re: Indian Naval Discussion
it'd be more than just ridiculous to fake the crash of a frontline fighter aircraft- as well as being incredibly humiliating if found out. Please leave the sillier CTs out of it...
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
people died in these incidents, what juvenile conspiracy theory is this ? let's not emulate our western neighbours.chandanus wrote: What is the chance that its ia fake story released in media...so as to further delay the handover of MiG 29 nw ...as the russians will be looking for ways to avenge the MMRCA rejection... also ...what is the proof that mishap happened onboard NEPRA
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Regardless of the nationality, my sympathies to the pilots' families.
Related question, what happens to the order in these cases? Does the order reduce by one or do we pay extra money or do the Russians absorb the loss?
Related question, what happens to the order in these cases? Does the order reduce by one or do we pay extra money or do the Russians absorb the loss?
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
since the aircraft wasn't delivered to us yet I think they will have to absorb the loss.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
nope... the aircraft is owned by the plant until its delivered to respective armed forces.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
I dunno how it works with russia, they might very well request/ask/force us to pay extra
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
Unless the dilivery has taken place. The liability for any loss to the Item has to be born by the manufacturer.
However, we will have to see what the terms of thr contracts were and how they covered the loss of the merchandise during the pre delivery testing phase.
However, we will have to see what the terms of thr contracts were and how they covered the loss of the merchandise during the pre delivery testing phase.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
I would think the same but knowing their recent actions, they might 'request' us to absorb it. Since the order is relatively small and the K's are only for India, it seems like we'll hear more about this issue soon.Rahul M wrote:since the aircraft wasn't delivered to us yet I think they will have to absorb the loss.
Re: Indian Naval Discussion
even russians have ordered the Mig 29Ks. iirc some 20-24.Nikhil T wrote:Since the order is relatively small and the K's are only for India, it seems like we'll hear more about this issue soon.
added later : http://rusnavy.com/news/navy/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=7697