The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 24 Jun 2011 07:41

>>You may not have a preference for a revolution, but that is another story. Forget about the revolution for a while. Explain to me, why you think that there is any hope for positive change within the current system. If you cant explain it or if you yourself are not convinced of it, then by elimination, you only have one option left, right, no matter how far fetched it is?

The issue has nothing to do with my preferences but yes my views are a violent peoples revolution in India, on the lines of one's seen in so many other countries, is highly unlikely.

Even the emergency did not see anything like a violent people's revolution. Heck even the British were able to handle the Indian "revolution", which had little direct impact on them. No disrespect to every soul that fought for the mother land.

I saw your examples of Marathas and Rajputs and all I can say is please read up more, lots more. BRF is an excellent place to learn a lot about our true histories, which is yet to be written with formal sanction. Do recommend India Forum for the same also. But also go beyond these boards for there are excellent texts out there.

The current system is a creation of well meaning people, who got it wrong. This has been further exasperated by not so well meaning people, who's greed for power knows no limits.

So, my faith is not in the current system but our people, who remain largely good and the corrupt are few and even those few will dwindle in numbers, once an efficient system is in place. My faith is in the spiritual genius of this land, that understands inner sciences like no other has. Once this veil of ignorance and deracination is swept away from the minds of the elite, nothing will stop her from fulfilling her destiny and gain all there is to gain from a mastery of the outer sciences. India's destiny ought to be to civilize the world with her spiritual message.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 24 Jun 2011 07:48

Philip wrote: Corruption has saturated Indian society so much that no amount of legislation,new bills passed,etc.,will have any use ...

By that logic the RTI Act is useless.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 24 Jun 2011 07:54

ShauryaT wrote:The court example you have provided is good evidence, why the current constitution does not work

"Parts" of the Constitution, you might want to say...The basic tenets of the Constitution - broad principles, are unexceptioanble, IMO...ACtually, that is exactly why the Constitution has been amended so many hundreds of times!

In this specific case, the necessary "amendment" is the Lokpal, which is nothing but CBI without day-to-day political executive intereference and some quasi judicial powers built-in...

shaardula wrote:i think, if we are worthy successors of those who precede us, then we will mirror their genius within the context that we live in. within the context that we live in, we create the new eternal truths and live/write the contemporary mahabharatha.

I think we are not unworthy successors at all...To have created and sustained a democracy within such extreme viariances itself is no mean "mahabharat" feat (the Europeans are failing to maintain even an economic union!)...

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 24 Jun 2011 08:29

ShauryaT wrote:>>You may not have a preference for a revolution, but that is another story. Forget about the revolution for a while. Explain to me, why you think that there is any hope for positive change within the current system. If you cant explain it or if you yourself are not convinced of it, then by elimination, you only have one option left, right, no matter how far fetched it is?

The issue has nothing to do with my preferences but yes my views are a violent peoples revolution in India, on the lines of one's seen in so many other countries, is highly unlikely.

Even the emergency did not see anything like a violent people's revolution. Heck even the British were able to handle the Indian "revolution", which had little direct impact on them. No disrespect to every soul that fought for the mother land.

I saw your examples of Marathas and Rajputs and all I can say is please read up more, lots more. BRF is an excellent place to learn a lot about our true histories, which is yet to be written with formal sanction. Do recommend India Forum for the same also. But also go beyond these boards for there are excellent texts out there.

The current system is a creation of well meaning people, who got it wrong. This has been further exasperated by not so well meaning people, who's greed for power knows no limits.

So, my faith is not in the current system but our people, who remain largely good and the corrupt are few and even those few will dwindle in numbers, once an efficient system is in place. My faith is in the spiritual genius of this land, that understands inner sciences like no other has. Once this veil of ignorance and deracination is swept away from the minds of the elite, nothing will stop her from fulfilling her destiny and gain all there is to gain from a mastery of the outer sciences. India's destiny ought to be to civilize the world with her spiritual message.

Respect your optimism.

But really, you seem to saying, in this post at least (and correct me if I am wrong) that somehow, either God or people will find a way to create the change from within the system, because of "the spiritual genius of this land" and because the "corrupt are few". You then go on to say that "the corrupt will further dwindel in numbers", once an efficient system is in place. Fair enough. Let me address this one by one.

1. I fundamentally agree with you in that I also believe in the "spiritual genius of this land". Only, I will exchange the word "land" with people, although I think you also mean the same thing. I fully understand that our ancient land is completely intertwined with our people. In other words, the when you combine our people with our land, the result is greater than the sum of its parts.

But now about the disagreements. although ever so slight and subtle.

2. Unfortunately, the corrupt are not few. They are a lot. I happen to think they are now the overwhelming majority. Rich, poor, middle class, across all demographics, all religions, all castes, all tribes and all sects.

3. While I also whole heartedly believe and share your optimism, that our people will find a way, you dont seem to specify some of the possible ways. I am just taking your assertion a little further to its logical conclusion by specifying some worldly ways of how our people will accomplish the change. I call it revolution. You would call it revolution too, for, if indeed change comes from within as you prefer, then it will certainly be a revolution bigger than a conventional revolution. Because the current conditions are so bad, that it is much much more difficult to affect change from within than outside.

4. You say, the "corrupt will dwindle in number, once an efficient system is in place". But this is a circular argument. Kind of like the proverbial "chicken or the egg". An efficient system will not be in place unless and until the corrupt dwindle and the corrupt will not dwindle until an efficient system is in place. All the "genius of our land and people" and all your optimism and mine, cannot solve this riddle, this "chicken or the egg" situation. So, I believe the "genius of our land and people" will manifest itself in a revolution.

I would still be interested in some possible scenarios, concrete and practical scenarios, in your view, of how "the genius of our land and people" can conceivably bring about the desired changes from within the current system and without a revolution, given our current sorry state.

And just one request. Please dont tell me that "you dont know enough about history and that you should read some more on certain forums". You will agree that, that is like telling someone that he is ignorant. Was that your intent ? If not, then I would prefer, if you would like to enlighten me, to correct my assertion with a more correct assertion openly and overtly, and then attaching a link, where I can go to read more and where specifically your assertion is supported. If you merely tell me that I dont know without even pointing out where I am not correct, isnt it a bit...........clumsy at the very least ?

ManishH · Post by **ManishH** » 24 Jun 2011 08:51

somnath wrote: Unfortunately, I want everything for me, my family, my kids and my country today - from a better quality of life to India sitting on all high tables

I agree, cultural restoration cannot occur with a right here, right now ETA. But then quick-fix approaches that assume corruption, like any other social vice, can be legislated away aren't going to work either short term or long-term.

Unless Lord Krishna (my favourite God, by a distance) comes down on Earth and waves his magic wand to convert us all to vedic "pristinity", unfortunately I tend to believe that solutions in our case will need to come from within the system....

To clarify, a solution based on Indian cultural values doesen't need divine intervention. It needs the society to reinstate cultural values and remember the moral heritage.

IMHO, Rajas and Kalmadis are a smaller problem. The bigger problem is social acceptance of corruption as practiced by common man. Laws can deal with the former, but fixing the latter needs restoration of cultural values.

@Muppalla your "progressive" vision truly frightened me for a minute

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 24 Jun 2011 08:52

Anna movement will be crushed. In fact it is over estemating its support. Congress rightly caliculated the micro minority of English Tv News viewers need not be feared. Tv stations acting force maltipliers will only work to some extent. When you attack self interest of the Italian Mafia they will not keep quite. Ramdav did that with demanding to bringing back Swiss money ( which mostly belong to Mafia family). Mafia now understands that Anna really do not have any support among masses. Once they have food security bill in place they will create a huge hype to attract people to vote of it in 2014

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 24 Jun 2011 08:53

Government cold to CAG's quest for new powers
- http://www.hindu.com/2011/06/24/stories ... 610100.htm

NEW DELHI: The United Progressive Alliance government may have shown a willingness to draft a new Lokpal Bill, but it is dragging its feet on a proposal to strengthen the public institution that has done so much to expose wrongdoings in public life: the Comptroller and Auditor-General (CAG).

For the past two years, the CAG has been pushing the Finance Ministry — its nodal ministry — for crucial changes in the 1971 Audit Act. The accounting watchdog's concern is that its mandate to summon files and examine the way public monies are spent has not kept pace with new modes of governance that have emerged, especially since liberalisation.

Weekly reminders

In 2010, the CAG sent concrete proposals for amendments to three broad areas, but the government is still mulling over its response. This, despite getting formal reminders on an almost weekly basis. The official silence is not surprising given that audit reports have become something of a political hot potato. The capital was rife with reports of corruption in the telecom sector, for example, but it was only when the CAG report on the 2G spectrum allocation confirmed the scam that the government was forced to act. The latest audit report to set off a political firestorm is on oil and gas production sharing contracts, with the CAG's leaked draft saying Reliance Industries was shown “undue favours” in its KG basin operations.

The KG report is still being finalised, but its long-gestation period — work began in 2006 — and tentative conclusions reflect the weakness of the audit mandate. The Petroleum Ministry dragged its feet in giving documents (despite having asked for the audit in the first place) and private companies refused to share relevant information. The CAG now wants this situation rectified.

The first amendment it is seeking relates to the speed with which government departments respond to audit requests.

Crucial audits get delayed because ministries aren't obliged to respond within a specified time frame.

Just as the Right to Information Act gives ordinary citizens the right to get an answer to their questions within 30 days, the CAG wants a similar deadline for official responses to its queries.

The second change pertains to the mandatory disclosure of finalised audit reports. Governments delay the tabling of reports which are politically inconvenient. The CAG's audit of the Delhi Metro Rail Corporation was not tabled in Parliament for a year. And the Maharashtra government held on to a report for 18 months because it contained adverse comments on Vilasrao Deshmukh, tabling it only when the CAG threatened to have it released through the Governor.

With these examples fresh in its mind, the CAG wants the law to specify that governments must immediately table reports submitted while the legislature is in session, or within the first week of the next session, if submitted in between.

Finally, the CAG wants the 1971 Act to clarify its powers to audit new forms of government economic activity such as public-private partnerships and joint ventures, and new conduits of expenditure not envisaged when the law was first framed — such as the routing of money for the Sarva Shiksha Abhiyan, the National Rural Health Mission and the MNREGA through panchayati raj institutions and non-governmental organisations.

By some estimates, more than Rs. 80,000 crore is spent this way every year, beyond the reach of the CAG's regular audits. Because the CAG doesn't audit this expenditure, Parliament too does not get to review how well this money is being utilised.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 24 Jun 2011 08:54

nataraja wrote: I would still be interested in some possible scenarios, concrete and practical scenarios, in your view, of how "the genius of our land and people" can conceivably bring about the desired changes from within the current system and without a revolution, given our current sorry state.

Is it so difficult for a leader to emerge in this land of 1.2 billion?

The scenarios are endless. New leadership with or without new party. A set of leaders from multiple states that bolt. A split in the INC. A media led campaign for fundamental change and reform. I mean you can devise many ways. None maybe as instantly gratifying as a "revolution" but are in the more probable category.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 24 Jun 2011 09:02

Muppalla wrote: You also know US systems are like gospels (modern vedas) that drives the world for another thousand years. In such a world and times you ask to find solutions from vedas. It will be truley boring and I don't think it has even entertainmain value.

Move on saheb

Pretty lazy analysis of the whole thing.The rot and deracination at it finest eh?

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 24 Jun 2011 09:08

Pranav wrote:
Philip wrote: Corruption has saturated Indian society so much that no amount of legislation,new bills passed,etc.,will have any use ...
By that logic the RTI Act is useless.

The basic crux of Philip's argument IMO is that laws made without implementing them are basically irrelevant.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 24 Jun 2011 09:19

Narayana Rao wrote:Anna movement will be crushed. In fact it is over estemating its support. Congress rightly caliculated the micro minority of English Tv News viewers need not be feared. Tv stations acting force maltipliers will only work to some extent. When you attack self interest of the Italian Mafia they will not keep quite. Ramdav did that with demanding to bringing back Swiss money ( which mostly belong to Mafia family). Mafia now understands that Anna really do not have any support among masses. Once they have food security bill in place they will create a huge hype to attract people to vote of it in 2014

True Narayan Rao Ji,
But this assumes that Anna and Agnivesh were not the strawmen created by the congress in the first place to derail the much hugely popular movement of RD.The biggest donors of this AH movement are some congress big shot businessman as was revealed by Desh Bandhu Gupta and is rumored to be true.
In any case even if I am wrong this movement will go nowhere as you say. Sad Indeed.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 24 Jun 2011 09:28

I must mention an incident that occured in Navadvipa, bengal hundreds of years ago.

Nearly 500 years ago,was born Lord Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, considered today by many as an incarnation of Lord Krishna. He grew up to be a natural leader of congregations, singing and chanting the holy name of Rama and Krishna.This movement was often interrupted by many muslim kings but today this movement is spreading worldwide and has been responsible for wonderful programs such as the Food for Life Program, and congregational chanting-Harinaam Sankirtan.This unites the people in a well knit society that is disciplined and non-violent.In 1966 the great scholar and Viashnava Acharya His Divine Grace Srila A C Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada spread this to the west, conquering the hearts and minds of thousands of derelict hippies, who gradually got rehabilitated into mainstream life by this process.George Harrison,Allen Ginsberg to name a few, contributed strongly to this movement, and George even donated his sprawling Windsor Manor to the movement.

Here is a brief outline of how this movement was threatened by rulers in Orissa and Bengal.

As the movement picked up, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu rapidly acquired many followers, who immediately took up the chanting, sometimes performing it in their homes and sometimes in the streets of Navadvipa,Bengal. The Lord's sankirtana movement immediately threatened the established groups in the social hierarchy-the Muslim rulers of Bengal and the even the hereditary Hindu priestly class, the caste priests who were attempting to artificially monopolize religious leadership (BR and team should take note of this). Members of both groups lodged complaints with the local Muslim ruler, Chand Kazi.

Agreeing that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His followers threatened the established order, the Kazi tried to suppress the growing sankirtana movement. On his order, constables raided the home of one of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's followers and smashed the mridangam drums used in the chanting. The Kazi ordered that the chanting of the holy names of the Lord be immediately stopped and threatened that if it began again in Navadvipa, he would ruthlessly punish those responsible.

When informed of the raid, Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu immediately organized the largest peaceful civil disobedience movement in Indian history up to that time. On a prearranged evening, Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and one hundred thousand of His followers suddenly appeared in the streets of Navadvipa and divided into many well-organized chanting parties. As they danced through the city, the sound of the Hare Krsna maha mantra resounded in a deafening roar. Finally, the chanters converged on the residence of the Kazi, who hid inside.

At Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's invitation, however, the Kazi appeared, and the two began negotiations. Speaking politely, and with great logic and reason, the Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu convinced the Kazi that the complaints against sankirtana were groundless. In a dramatic conversion, the Kazi himself became a follower of Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and actively promoted and protected the sankirtana movement. To this very day, Hindus visit the tomb of this Muslim magistrate to pay their respects. Since the time of the Kazi, the Muslim inhabitants of Navadvipa have never interfered with the public chanting of the Hare Krsna maha mantra, even during the time of the Hindu-Muslim riots.

Not long after this important victory in His native town, Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu began to spread His movement all over India. For six years He traveled the length and breadth of the country, chanting the Hare Krsna mantra and spreading love of God. At many places, crowds of hundreds of thousands of people would join with Him in massive chanting parties.

More can be found at-
http://harekrishna.com/col/books/YM/cbh/ch5.html

Although the current Lok Pal Bill is not going to be as greatly successful as this movement is, its coordinators can learn how to successfully push through a movement by negotiation and peaceful agitation, staying steadfast on one's chose agenda. The Lok Pal Bill movement is definitely in the right direction,and is needed to stop/end corruption over a long period of time its success depends on how its leaders negotiate and lead the movement.Mere fasting will not suffice.One has to actively pursue all avenues of negotiation and make the government believe that it is eventually for the good of the country, its people,and even the government. Only the hardened political criminals who have steeped themselves low in corruption would disagree to this.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 24 Jun 2011 09:36

^^ Good way to galvanize people in Gallis and Mohallas to effect positive change by positive actions at first glance.

SRoy · Post by **SRoy** » 24 Jun 2011 10:09

sanjeevpunj wrote:I must mention an incident that occured in Orissa hundreds of years ago.
.
.
.
in the streets of Navadvipa,Orissa.

But Sir Navadvipa is in Bengal

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 24 Jun 2011 10:11

if you have attended any such event, you would know how wonderful it can get when people walk down the streets singing and chanting.I used to be a part of it in India, we had a fun time in NOIDA, singing and chanting on the streets, followed by a cavalcade of cars! If the Lok Pal movement organisers took some hints,and worked on very peaceful methods of agitation, putting in consistent pressure, but never crossing the line of sanity, the movement would really grow.Mobilising people in gallis and mohallas is not a difficult task, with so much unemployment around.The people should however maintain strict discipline.The other side is always on the lookout for violent protesters and they need a hint to opress it.So strict discipline must be enforced within the protesters.It has to be well coordinated for successful completion.One front should carry on negotiations, another front should carry out peaceful protests, and dont need to centralise the protest in Delhi, it can be organised state-wide, in all states. Eventually after successes in states, the movement could converge on Delhi!

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 24 Jun 2011 10:12

SRoy wrote:
sanjeevpunj wrote:I must mention an incident that occured in Orissa hundreds of years ago.
.
.
.
in the streets of Navadvipa,Orissa.
But Sir Navadvipa is in Bengal

Thanks for the correction! I will change it in the post!

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 24 Jun 2011 10:25

Manishw wrote:Sanku Ji,.

Thank you so very much for the kind words ManishW-ji. Appreciate it.

UBanerjee · Post by **UBanerjee** » 24 Jun 2011 11:05

ManishH wrote:
somnath wrote:ManishH-ji, being sceptical about "solutions" to problems based on vedas does not mean "deriding" vedas themselves...In the same way as deriding Ramdev is not the same as deriding "hinduism"..
Somnathji - I trust your intent, but your words indicated that you hold any solution based on vedic culture as "entertainment solution" by default. Sad is the day when moral foundation of Rgveda - सत्येनोत्तभिता भूमिः ... रतेनादित्यास्तिष्ठन्ति (Truth is the basis of Earth, by Divine Laws is Sun held secure) is underestimated.

Corruption cannot be defeated by the guile/strategy or law and policy making of any government or ruling elite; but when Indian people realize the state of civilizational rot it has caused.

Today in Indian society, there are too many social reward systems for corruption. When the individual realizes that common gain requires sacrificing personal gain, that's when he reaches the highest degree of evolution.

Such collective moral realization can only come if society and education system reinforces morals and values. Let society be it's own Lokpal. Game theories hold that even minutest social engineering that can turn around the social reward into a social punishment will have a cascading effect (eg Readers' Digest lost wallet experiments). Why deride cultural approaches to that social engineering ?

It's also held in vedic belief that Creation was started with Divine Laws (rta) and Truth (satya). Why can't we stress our scriptures to make Indian society realize that with Corruption, we are not following the Truth and therefore it'll lead to Destruction.

P-secs will ofcourse deride cultural approaches as Indian version of "Bible Thumping". Any cultural solution to social problems alarms them so much that they instantly call it impractical and are even ready to preserve status quo. If our post-independence education had stressed Indian cultural morals and education, things would not have come to this pass.

There is a school of thought among others, influenced by Sri Marx, which holds in contempt explanations for socioeconomic progress that are based on culture, piety, religion, and the everyday values of human beings. In these schools, progress and success are largely a matter of economic controls and capital, and that human beings are largely interchangeable inputs; if the right economic environment descends from above, then the system will be a success.

According to this model, it doesn't matter if a nation is devoid of or lacking in ancient cultural institutions and norms governing behavior; the simple arrival of economic inputs will generate the appropriate behaviors among the "rational humans". Thus if there are equal capital inputs, resources, infrastructure, etc. in two disparate nations, the economic progress will be similar regardless of other factors. We can see how miserably this model has failed to explain the world today.

What they have entirely missed is that civilization is something which is built on values and culture that are not universally hard-wired into humans. These values and culture have to be absorbed by humans continuously if they are to function in a civilized environment (i.e. not hunter-gatherer tribal) and if the machine of society is to run smoothly. It is built on thousands of small actions each of us take every day- whether returning a lost wallet, hiring the most qualified candidate for a job instead of a second cousin, or dealing fairly in a transaction.

UBanerjee · Post by **UBanerjee** » 24 Jun 2011 11:27

ShauryaT wrote:
Sanku wrote: True, Marten Saar, in the end it boils down to awareness levels and wishes of Junta.
Yes and let us face it, the awareness levels are pretty low and the Junta can be alarmingly stupid as well as decisive at times.

They have been denied basic education. We are still dealing with very large masses of illiterate and poor voters, you almost wonder if there has been a deliberate perpetuation of their state, to ensure such a mass of malleable voters.

There is something to be said for the idea that democracy functions poorly without a literate society (becoming demagoguery). Sure we may mock the bland nature of US political system and ignorance of American voters, but we have basic governance problems that they do not. And although the American voter is ignorant about many things, he usually doesn't tolerate it when the basic functions of local and federal government have failed completely. Just the very real essential stuff like delivering security, food, clean water, education, power and roads.

Forget the scams, that is a whole 'nother issue. The scams are dramatic talking points but blips on the radar compared to just performing these essential services.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 24 Jun 2011 11:48

UBanerjee wrote:There is a school of thought among others, influenced by Sri Marx.....

Great post and wonderfully expressed.

They have been denied basic education. We are still dealing with very large masses of illiterate and poor voters, you almost wonder if there has been a deliberate perpetuation of their state, to ensure such a mass of malleable voters.

Well the stupidity is not linked to education alone. I find tons of extremely stupid ill informed people who are ostensibly educated, and free thinking less educated people.

It is primarily to do with the effect of social engineering, the channels for educated and uneducated are different but where the social engineering has worked, they have been "dumbified"

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 24 Jun 2011 12:03

UBanerjee wrote:There is something to be said for the idea that democracy functions poorly without a literate society (becoming demagoguery). Sure we may mock the bland nature of US political system and ignorance of American voters, but we have basic governance problems that they do not. And although the American voter is ignorant about many things, he usually doesn't tolerate it when the basic functions of local and federal government have failed completely. Just the very real essential stuff like delivering security, food, clean water, education, power and roads.

Thats a very unfair comment IMO....It will be OT perhaps for the thread, but the Indian voter has consistently shown more maturity, more discretion and greater political savvy than in many other countries...Espeially true in the last 20 odd years...

During a time when governance was really bad, when little happened, governments were knocked out each time they went to vote..Anti incumbency became a pavlovian outcome in the hustings...In the last 10-15 years, when things have visibly improved, "delivering"administrations are being voted back - Narendra Modi, Nitish Kumar, Sheila Dixit, Tarun Gogoi, even Digvijay Singh in MP and Naidu in AP got voted back when their "pluses" seemingly outweighed their "minuses"...

Add to that the increasing participation in politics - voting %s are touching 80%+ levels, unheard of in the democractic world (with "free" voting)..

UBanerjee · Post by **UBanerjee** » 24 Jun 2011 12:30

Sanku wrote:
UBanerjee wrote:There is a school of thought among others, influenced by Sri Marx.....
Great post and wonderfully expressed.

Thank you Sankuji.

Sanku wrote:
They have been denied basic education. We are still dealing with very large masses of illiterate and poor voters, you almost wonder if there has been a deliberate perpetuation of their state, to ensure such a mass of malleable voters.
Well the stupidity is not linked to education alone. I find tons of extremely stupid ill informed people who are ostensibly educated, and free thinking less educated people.

It is primarily to do with the effect of social engineering, the channels for educated and uneducated are different but where the social engineering has worked, they have been "dumbified"

True, there is for sure much intelligence to be found outside of "academia" and "education". However, I do regard literacy as one of the fundamental requirements for a modern industrial society to function properly- one which is transitioning out of "85%+ employed in backbreaking agricultural work" like civilizations of past times, where literacy was not so required (and not encouraged, as it would damage the vast pools of laborers necessary). Without literacy you are cut off from this society for the most part, the exchange of ideas, and the lines of communication. Cross-fertilization is key to developing ideas. Even if bright thinkers exist amongst the population without literacy they are isolated and undeveloped.

Along with the scourge of illiteracy there is also the scourge of malnutrition which is a deficiency peculiar to India (given its culture, history and economy- levels are at subSaharan african numbers). Which stunts the mind along with the body. I'm sure everyone in India has noticed the large numbers of "underclass" who are of very short wiry stature, growth limited by lack of nutrients. However this also affects the brain development which is unseen. This has severe consequences for a modern society esp. in a democracy where they will be voting. Why has this underclass been perpetuated? Lack of education about nutrition and lack of efforts to eradicate this. This is a basic failure of govt. And, I would argue, civil society as a whole.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 24 Jun 2011 12:31

somnath wrote:It will be OT perhaps for the thread, but the Indian voter has consistently shown more maturity, more discretion and greater political savvy than in many other countries...Espeially true in the last 20 odd years...

I have always regarded all such media mentions of Indian electorate showing 'maturity, political savvy' as a bunch of poppycock !! These are highly subjective parameters. The same folks who say that voters have shown maturity will be singing the opposite tune when their favorite party is voted out.

What objective parameters can you identify to measure this supposed 'maturity'? Is economic performance the only criteria? In that case why was Naidu voted out in AP after a sterling performance, why was BJP voted out in '04? I am sure you will come back with some explanations that make nominal sense - but that is only possible with hindsight and is basically a curve-fitting exercise to explain the outcome.

Rather than in typical dork media fashion trying to judge the electorate in terms of the outcome - it would be fat better for the country to focus on the process of decision making. How much is bribing and money-power a factor? How much of open high-quality debate on key issues takes place between candidates and how involved is the electorate in understanding the key issues at stake? How much does the Indian electorate think beyond communitarian, identity -based politics? Why does dynastic politics hold such sway in India ? Does the candidate winning the elections really represent the majority in the constituency?

The answers to all of these questions are deeply troubling. Net net, there are some things Indians need to be highly proud of - their world-beating entrepreneurs, their focus on education that consistently produces the best minds in the world in several fields etc. But in terms of quality of Indian democracy and Indian governance - anybody who claims Indian standards are good is setting the bar shockingly low. India can very much do without the artificial sloganeering at this stage - and instead focus on creating something that is truly world-class that Indians can be proud of.

jaibhim · Post by **jaibhim** » 24 Jun 2011 13:13

Shri Mr.Banerjee,
Even among the so called literate using your word, educated classes what you see in your tv channel is an elite which I have railed against in the past. I would like to say sorry to the moderators if they find it OT, but I am just responding to Mr. Banerjee's post.
You are aware of the unfortunate state of affairs in Indian Universities where one goes from becoming many form of communists in one lifetime and one inhabits its premises for many many years without any appreciable increase in knowledge or insight. The IISc, TIFR, IGDIR and some exceptions and one man armies in some universities who carry many of their students with them who invariably leave abroad at the first opportunity. Try living in one of the central universities, try getting a reference letter to go for higher studies, try changing the tabulation error of 37 to 73 in central college bangalore university without a bribe and you might well go insane. I am sorry to say I know people who put their dodgy snake oil PhD thesis on their resume as a weblink while making invitations to conferences which are any thing but conferences but monologues and lunch and dinner positioning diplomacy.I have been laughing hysterically at a mailing list by misfortune had my name attached, at one such chap, now anointed as a faculty in a government institute, who however after spending 10 plus long years residing in Campus as a PhD scholar cannot write a opening letter with grammatically correct english for a jathra he plans to organise[to complete a bureaucratic requirement] in the capital where such events are held Delhi of the impact socio-cultural factors, lpg the three words and the status of field research in India. Compare this to conference where you burn many a midnight's oil, get to leapfrog your academic knowledge and your head becomes hot like furnace because of all the analysis by the end of the day, where your confidence could be demolished after your presentation for ever and the you are subjected to an interrogation that you wished might have never happened. This is the same country that produced P.R.Bramhananada, Subramanian Chandrashekar and CV Raman two of my near relatives and all in rail parlance base divn, poh and locality in- SBC where we all hail from through the generations.

If there is no crackdown on the number of years taken for research and the quality of output produced at the end is bereft of an uncompromising inquest based on research quality alone and products end up in many of these government bodies many of them for instance are there in Hyderabad to nothing much but have tea and fried stuff mirchi bajji to be precise, gossip, things are very bleak indeed full of coolies who cannot be good engineers or social scientists of great pedigree. In addition some live in past glory of one published paper or being members of a one day seminar in lala land but are full of arrogance and pomp. They could however be bought or fixed. Things have come to such a stage that chinese students who are fast overcoming their impediment on english[to their credit it must be said based on personal empirical observation that they work really hard] are producing razor sharp analytical papers in sociology and economics of unparalleled quality based on academic rigour and hard data that has direct utility not some dodgy tear dripping bhadralok WKK cry such as the voices from naxalbari. The delhi crowd is another crowd full of WKK's who work the system and about which we all know here. Not only that, their output in peer reviewed journals including the social sciences; is increasing manifold. Furthermore the policy of giving funds on a platter for those who are at the MPhil level[other than first generation learners and those who are genuinely underprivileged] might well have backfired because it is one more good opportunity to run side business and do many activities which scholars engage in keeping the hostel room as base The word research scholar used in india a despicable word, after doing a post doc in oxford any russell group uni or even the grandma of engineers UMIST you are still a student; just a student because there is much to learn just to survive in the publish or perish world and arrogance is foolishness.

It is another matter on the other end of the spectrum, that this revolutionary WKK bhadralok class pompous and full of contempt towards others[too difficult to change old habits] of the Jadavpur-JNU route in the UK , Europe and the US allocates its self the role of being Simon De Bevouir and avante grade revolutionaries and maoists.
Please see one such university's webpage--Xi'an Jiaotong Liverpool university, see their staff's quality and I hear that many such universities are coming up in the future, which means that India has a lot of catching up to do, in the pure science,
economics, sociology and political economy based on cold qualitative and quantitative reasoning not syrupy propaganda [more appropriately called anthropology of man and society stage; still stuck in colonial, verrier elwin's times unlike the ILR Cornell or the school of governance at Harvard and you need a Roy Bhaskar who I have met, to get out of India to start the Critical Realism movement,domain the engine room of growth which the Chinese are doing well.

The other extreme is the undernourished and poor who certainly deserve more by learning to fish rather than mere tirumangalam models.

jagbani · Post by **jagbani** » 24 Jun 2011 13:15

The comptroller and auditor general has unearthed a Rs 450-crore scam involving the purchase of Israeli unmanned aerial vehicles by the Hyderabad-based National Technical Research Organisation, a technical arm of the external intelligence agency Research and Analysis Wing.

In the first-ever audit of any intelligence agency in India, it was found that these UAVs were lying as junk. The CAG said that this was a major concern of accountability.

http://www.punjabkesari.in/Punjab/fulls ... 444_122095

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 24 Jun 2011 13:38

somnath wrote:
Add to that the increasing participation in politics - voting %s are touching 80%+ levels, unheard of in the democractic world (with "free" voting)..

Have you seen the voting in rural areas where people vote for one side in order not to be exterminated after some time the elections are over, the pressures can go to as extreme as the one I have written or lower as to be ostracized from the community as a whole.

Have you seen the booze / blankets/ 100 rupee notes circulating in slums in A, B, C cities of India during voting.

Have you seen the Media channels go on overdrive when elections take place and no don't compare it with US where everybody there knows which channel supports whom, here the pretense of being fair is thrust upon the people.

Have you heard the hate filled speeches of the muslim clergy during elections.

Have you seen the Psy-ops of the EJ churches in the tribal areas.

It is free till the monarchy is in power if somebody else were to win there would be cries of fascism, communalism etc, etc. being shouted from everywhere.

Free elections-my foot.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 24 Jun 2011 13:52

Heee heee heee heee

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/team- ... rt/808158/

Team Anna knocks on Advani door for Lokpal support

What happened to no photos of Bharat Mata at rally, no RSS types, all political parties are chor etc, Anna Sahib.

Why dont you write to the clean PM, Shri Man Mohan and his master, Maino devi? Whom you so admired?

Reality check from Kangress?

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 24 Jun 2011 13:59

Arjun wrote:Is economic performance the only criteria? In that case why was Naidu voted out in AP after a sterling performance, why was BJP voted out in '04? I

I am sure economic performance isnt the "only criteria"...And I dont know nearly enough about electoral sociologies (does anyone?) to know what exactly impacts results...What I base my views on are on broad trends on governments that are making a visible difference (some of it of course shows up in the numbers) are getting voted back..One can also broadly see that "efficient" govts that maintain social peace (read, prevents consolidation of certain segments against them) tend to get re-elected (Gujarat in 2002 may have been an excption - but then the social strife enabled consolidation on the other side, but it seems to be an exception)...One might discern that parties focusing exclusively on a communitarian narrative are not making the cut (SP in UP is a classic example)...

Of course, all the above might also be described as "pop psephology", and I have no issues with that...But the increasing particiaption of voters and a discernoible change from pavlovian anti-incumbency to a more nuanced choice makes a case for voter engagement and discretion...

BTW, purely on numbers, the NDA govt averaged the lowest growth rate in the post reforms (1992) era of any govt, including the 2 year old UF govt...CBN got re-elected once, in hindsight purely on the basis of his fresh approach..But in terms of numbers, AP kept lagging behind the other Southern states in his time, and social sector spends actually declined in % of GDP terms...Add to the latter the strife in farming in the last 2 years of his regime...

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 24 Jun 2011 16:34

What happened to the discussion on "draft"? We are now meandering through "electoral" politics and pontification on the maturity of the Indian voter. It has already been mentioned - but not voting for the "proper" party or "group" does have severe consequences for many a electorate, ranging from direct "action" to something less dramatic but more insidious in the form of economic "sanctions" at the minutest local, daily life level.

Urban dhimmis circulating only among "English" smattered local dialect yuppies, do not even have the exposure to the daily lives at the margins of their own urban cocoons. Or they are aware but have to ignore it because of their "class" affiliations which however changes according to whatever appears to be most potent and beneficial political regime. Before independence, it was the "Brit sarkar ma baap", post independence, it is switching overnight to "Congez sarkar ma baap", to "Baam sarkaar ma baap" as and when that became advantageous. Each transition however happens onlee when the urban dhimmi sees the previous "ma baap" collaborating in smiling graciously on the transfer of power to the new "ma baap". The urban dhimmi reads the signals and calculates that his/her financial and other privileges will be secured by making the transition on cue.

This same group had once sung the praise to Brit rule - and cited the absence of popular revolt as a proof popular support for the regime. Then after making the smooth transition to Congrez rule, due turnout and stamping at the booth was cited as popular support. That went for Leftist rule too. Ignore and suppress the reality of electoral choices and how it impacts the daily life of non-urban non-dhimmi multitudes in subtle or not so subtle retaliation and retribution or rewards for that matter. More of retribution actually because the docility does not generate any significant upward mobility of life though!

By the way, this thread long discussed one particular upstart barging into the pure anti-corruption movement, and in particular it was claimed by several that his supposed position on homosexualism or cross-dressing was immensely relevant for discussion - because it supposedly reflects on "intent".

It strikes me that the same analytic tool has not been focused on AH, and his apparent taste for the whip or the belt. That reminds me of the "English vice" or a long connection to European enjoyment of the whip/leather/belt. No psychological exploration of possible "intent" in this doyen of anti-corruption? Is the "anti-corruption" hoopla also a personal manifestation of an inner agony connected to the taste for the "whip"? an extreme devotion to moral crusades is often connected to peculiar psychological deviations. If BR is amenable to such scrutiny why do we miss the elephant in the room for AH then!

I quoted a Tehelka report that talked of Prashant Bhushan allegedly having written a "turgid" sci-fi novel. How "turgid" was it, and in what direction? The typical use of "turgid" in "Queen's English" [for comprehension-emperors] in such a context - novels/literature - indicates a particular slant. Maybe that novel should be searched for and fished out - as to what psychological profile lies behind these crusade leaders!

archan · Post by **archan** » 24 Jun 2011 16:50

nataraja wrote:
archan wrote: Sir,

I was the one who filed a complaint to the admins from which you have quoted above. I find it amazing that the complainant is being locked up and beaten up by the police.

Is it possible that my complaint is against some minister or a remote control within BRF ? Or the local Police Inspector got a phone call from someone "high up" ?

Congratulations, your quota of warnings just opened up. Feel free to make guesses about who called up who etc. etc. but don't derail this thread with that gyan. Dhanyawad.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 24 Jun 2011 17:00

somnath wrote:What I base my views on are on broad trends on governments that are making a visible difference (some of it of course shows up in the numbers) are getting voted back..One can also broadly see that "efficient" govts that maintain social peace (read, prevents consolidation of certain segments against them) tend to get re-elected (Gujarat in 2002 may have been an excption - but then the social strife enabled consolidation on the other side, but it seems to be an exception)...One might discern that parties focusing exclusively on a communitarian narrative are not making the cut (SP in UP is a classic example)...

My point is simple. Any talk of 'maturity of electorate' based on election outcomes reflects classic Indian media dorkishness, the same non-rational dorkishness that results in their pseudo-liberal blather.

I have never heard such terms being used in the US media. Does the fact that Republicans win one election mean that all those who voted Democrats are immature ?

Does the fact that most Indian winning candidates gather less than 50% of votes cast, mean that in an election with 'mature' results the majority of the voters actually voted 'immaturely'? If you voted INC in '99 - or NDA in '04 were you being immature? Is Pavolovian anti-incumbency less mature than pavlovian pro-incumbency?

If the 'maturity' criteria are known upfront and assuming the Indian electorate broadly votes 'maturely' does that mean that most Indian election outcomes can be predicted upfront? If communitarian narrative is an issue does that mean that the UPA with the single biggest communitarian bill going against the Indian constitution will lose the next elections?

Lets bring some intelligence into the analysis, and stop this nonsense of calling the electorate 'mature' based on some trumped up criteria developed on hindsight.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 24 Jun 2011 17:10

^^^^^
With most of the electorate being easy to win over by giving free gifts like gold-earrings and Colour TVs in a particular state, and just a bottle of liqour in some other state, how can we even imagine a "mature" electorate.

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 24 Jun 2011 17:11

ShauryaT wrote:
nataraja wrote: I would still be interested in some possible scenarios, concrete and practical scenarios, in your view, of how "the genius of our land and people" can conceivably bring about the desired changes from within the current system and without a revolution, given our current sorry state.
Is it so difficult for a leader to emerge in this land of 1.2 billion?

The scenarios are endless. New leadership with or without new party. A set of leaders from multiple states that bolt. A split in the INC. A media led campaign for fundamental change and reform. I mean you can devise many ways. None maybe as instantly gratifying as a "revolution" but are in the more probable category.

Read your own post. An objective reading of your own posts will make your realize that it is more a "hope" and a "prayer" than a realistic expectation that something will happen. Your posts give a distinct impression that you are hoping for some kind of "divine" intervention which will make things work within our current system. In fact, I agree with your analysis. Divine intervention is what it will take to make the current system responsive. Of course, all my calculations and logic will then be rendered secondary to that divine intervention.

"Cant a nation of 1.2 billion produce a leader" ? is more a cry from your heart, as it is from mine. It is the same thing as saying "cant a nation of 1.2 billion produce more than one gold medal in the olympics?" or "cant a nation of 1.2 bilion easily retain and reclaim Kashmir, all of it, including POK?" or "cant a nation of 1.2 billion carry enough weight to create a friendly govt in Pak, if not create a donwright puppet govt?" and on and on and on.

You say, "you can create many scenarios". True. But what in our 60 year history, but more importantly in the current behaviour of our citizenry gives you any kind of hope that such scenarios have even 1 to 2% probability. Revolution is for me, not an act of preference. It is only that I dont see another way. I am a very very reluctant revolutionist. I also hope like you, that our Gods, the Trinity, Lord Vishnu, are you listening, this time will be kind to us and after hundreds of years of being misruled by outsiders, will feel some compassion and give us just a little help, just enough to see us through.

We all can hope and pray, though. Which we will, because my heart hurts as much as yours, at our miserable state of affairs.

By the way this is my last post on this forum. The moderators gave me a "warning". I think it is laughable how seriously they take themselves and how small a mind some of them have.

Goodbye and good luck!

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 24 Jun 2011 17:23

archan wrote:
Congratulations, your quota of warnings just opened up. Feel free to make guesses about who called up who etc. etc. but don't derail this thread with that gyan. Dhanyawad.

Congratulations to you Sir.

I will not be participating in "your" forum anymore. When I joined I didnt think this was a private ranting ground of one or two individuals who seem to own this forum and run it like a "Lord of the Flies" farm. For those who have not read Lord of the Flies, it is about a bunch of adolescent children who get stranded on the island and then the group starts functioning as a dysfunctional, almost sick group with some very disturbed kids assuming leadership and using all kinds of oppresive techniques including torture to keep the other kids in line. It was a satire on how some autocratic groups and nations behave, with the people on top having narrow and sadistic minds.

A few days on this forum has convinced me that this forum will not do anything for India, in fact has nothing to do with India. It is all about the "Lords of the flies" themselves and their juvinile egos. In fact, it is doing our nation a great deal of disservice by presenting a very narrow picture of our people and like everything else in India, is treated as a personal fiefdom of certain individuals. This forum owners have the same mentality and come in the same tradition that created the unjust systems within India has always had, which have always kept us behind and which is why we are suffering to this day.

There is no inclusiveness, openness and tolerance for new ideas here and one or two owners of the forum clearly suffer from not only delusions but also grave psychosis.

I have not problem with you Archan, I was refering to certain others. I feel bad for you that you are having to do their dirty work. My advice to you, since I like you, is to get out from under their psychological clutches. I know, it will be very hard for you, though.

There were several posters here, though, who I have developed a great deal of respect for and have had good exchanges with. I do not want to name them as I dont want to taint them with the "owners". But to them, thanks and keep on with the good work. You folks are true patriots. Some of us have already corresponded over email offline and I am sure since I have exchanged emails with several others, we will be corresponding via email in the near future.

Goodl Luck all and good bye.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 24 Jun 2011 17:23

^^^
Ohno! Why are you leaving Nataraja? Everyone of your readers are not thinking the way moderators think,and moderators have to think in a particular way as their job is to moderate.It is sad that a newcomer should leave.I hope you will be back.You see as soon as things get "personal" in BRF moderators must come in and throw some tantrums, it is their duty.Or what happens is personal attacks increase,leading to derailing the actual thread.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 24 Jun 2011 17:30

somnath wrote: Thats a very unfair comment IMO....It will be OT perhaps for the thread, but the Indian voter has consistently shown more maturity, more discretion and greater political savvy than in many other countries...Espeially true in the last 20 odd years...

Great things have happened in the last 20 years heh, then explain this-

Manishw wrote:
RSoami wrote:http://www.theindiasite.com/family-poli ... arliament/

On the state of politics in India today.
From the link:

Family Politics | How nepotistic is the Indian Parliament?

Do young people stand a chance of joining national politics in India? If you are young, the odds are overwhelmingly against you – unless you have a close family member in politics.

-A shocking 100% of Indian MPs under the age of 30 are hereditary
p
-Two-thirds of Indian MPs under the age of 40 are from political families
p
-Less than 10% of MPs over the age of 70 are hereditary
p
-27 MPs are classified as ‘hyperhereditary’, and 19 of them are in the Congress party. By hyperhereditary, we mean that they have multiple family connections, and several family members who have made a career out of politics.

India may indeed be the world’s largest democracy, and everyone has a right to vote – and that is a precious thing. But does everyone really have an opportunity to stand for Parliament? You can vote, but what are the chances you will ever be voted for, given the growing lack of internal democracy in many of the major political parties?

While researching his new book India: A Portrait – published in the USA by Alfred A. Knopf in June 2011 – Patrick French (@PatrickFrench2 on Twitter) conducted a one-of-its kind survey which tried to answer the following question: What does it take to join politics at the national level today? Is it within or out of reach for the many millions of capable Indians who might like to throw a hat in the ring?

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Are these families going to change their ways because of some anti corruption movements?They will keep on finding new ways of looting the public.Only a total overhaul of the political system forced by the common man will change all this.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 24 Jun 2011 17:31

Arjun wrote:Does the fact that Republicans win one election mean that all those who voted Democrats are immature ?

Does the fact that most Indian winning candidates gather less than 50% of votes cast, mean that in an election with 'mature' results the majority of the voters actually voted 'immaturely'? If you voted INC in '99 - or NDA in '04 were you being immature?

This can derail the thread completely, but just two cents...Its a strange logic being imputed..."Maturity" of voter behaviour is being judged only against the touchstone of the primary narrative adopted by whom they support...And motivations for voter behavior...And outcomes decide which narrrative won the day...

If voters only cared for, as many in this forum (and some outside) seem to suggest, for 100 rupees and a sari, for his vote, then surely it is a case for describing the larger voter behaviour as "immature"...However, if that were to be true, there would almost never be any anti incumbency, as mostly no party can realsitically mobilise as much resources as the incumbent...

Further on, if narratives of communitarian and emotive issues ran away with victories all the time, it would classify the larger voting behaviour as "immature"...Again, that clearly isnt the case in India..

US has some of the most developed democratic practices - I am an unabashed admirer of them in that (and many other areas)...But there is a large segment of American population that seems to vote on the basis of "Christian evangelican values" etc - that is immature voter behavior IMO...when that narrative wins the election, then it represents a victory of that narrative over anythign else that others would have ran on...

Ditto for India..The limited point was that victories on the basis of purely communitarian narratives have become scarcer and scarcer...Even an uber communitarian party like BSP (tilak tarazu aur talwar.....) realised that..And had to forge a wider social coalition with a different message (development + new social compact) to win the election....While another party with an original message of a broader social compact (SP - a compact of backward castes and muslims looking to garner a larger share of the economic pie for themselves) lost it when it concentrated its narrative only around a communitarian agenda...

Doesnt mean that everythign's hunky dory - dynastic politics is a problem...Communicatrian politics too seems to pay off now and then....But then "Sarah Palin" represents what is the problem with American politics...So at least I dont buy into this - " we are illiterate, vote on the basis of saris" only logic...

Of course, its a POV, and if someone believes that the Indian voters are only into saris and 100 rupees,and we are compleetly screwed up et al, then well, go ahead! the polemics do make for entertaining reading! But a trifle OT, maybe we should have another thread

People seem to have missed the news report I posted on the new proposed electoral reforms bill - seems to be an AH after effect!

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 24 Jun 2011 17:34

somnath wrote: Further on, if parties harping on communitarian and emotive narratives ran away with victories all the time, it would classify the larger voting behaviour as "immature"...Again, that clearly isnt the case in India..

Ditto for India..The limited point was that victories on the basis of purely communitarian narratives have become scarcer and scarcer...:

Congress is the party whose primary plank is communitarian politics, with a garnish of populism. They continue to win and put jokers like Rajeev Gandhi in the seat when they have options like PVNR etc.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 24 Jun 2011 18:02

I am shamelessly quoting Wiki.

WIKI Says- A revolution (from the Latin revolutio, "a turn around") is a fundamental change in power or organizational structures that takes place in a relatively short period of time. Its use to refer to political change dates from the scientific revolution occasioned by Copernicus' famous De Revolutionibus Orbium Coelestium.

Aristotle described two types of political revolution:
1.Complete change from one constitution to another.
2.Modification of an existing constitution.

Revolutions have occurred through human history and vary widely in terms of methods, duration, and motivating ideology. Their results include major changes in culture, economy, and socio-political institutions.
Scholarly debates about what does and does not constitute a revolution center around several issues. Early studies of revolutions primarily analyzed events in European history from a psychological perspective, but more modern examinations include global events and incorporate perspectives from several social sciences, including sociology and political science. Several generations of scholarly thought on revolutions have generated many competing theories and contributed much to the current understanding of this complex phenomenon.

In India, We have had a revolution starting in 1857 triggered by the Sepoy Mutiny in Meerut, lasting 90 years till we finally got our independence in 1947, and each of the persons involved it in must get credit equally though the press elevated a few to the top.This is the most substantial gain we Indians have ever had on a global level,and it should be always capitalised upon. While the Congress always has assumed its right to capitalise upon this, others who want a change are still simmering to have a share of power.The desire to change the way power corridors functions is stronger than ever before,and has today been represented by the Lok Pal Bill movement.It is still not fit to be called a revolution, it would take another hundred years, to see its impact and call it India's first "anti-corruption revolution" if it takes on speed and motivates the masses.

This particular movement of Lok Pal Bill is intent on changing some parts of the constitution, however they want to do it without violence so it is a clean type of revolution that avoids killing the opposition. It appears more like a game, given the facts that are turning up each day.The acid test would be when the masses actually adopt the anti-corruption stand and take it to fulfillment, without disrupting law and order. Many incomprehensible events can occur, some amongst the masses may take it as a license to attack the rich, which is totally wrong, because the law should not be taken into hands by the public, it always leads to hateful precedents. The enactment of such an instrument is crucial. If the enactment is delayed, or sabotaged,then unwanted hateful precedents would occur and move things in the wrong direction.If the bill is allowed, through peaceful negotiations,then it will have a far reaching effect, and one should not expect miracles, all the corrupt cannot be punished in one day, we are not into a "Judgement Day" style of change that will suddenly change everything.What is needed is the opportunity for a fair exchange of ideas,so that everyone can understand what is going on.Even the chaiwala should know that it will bring good to him,and he won't have to pay hafta to the police to keep his chai stall in place.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 24 Jun 2011 18:11

This is what I wrote

Manishw wrote:
Have you seen the voting in rural areas where people vote for one side in order not to be exterminated after some time the elections are over, the pressures can go to as extreme as the one I have written or lower as to be ostracized from the community as a whole.

Have you seen the booze / blankets/ 100 rupee notes circulating in slums in A, B, C cities of India during voting.

Have you seen the Media channels go on overdrive when elections take place and no don't compare it with US where everybody there knows which channel supports whom, here the pretense of being fair is thrust upon the people.

Have you heard the hate filled speeches of the muslim clergy during elections.

Have you seen the Psy-ops of the EJ churches in the tribal areas.

It is free till the monarchy is in power if somebody else were to win there would be cries of fascism, communalism etc, etc. being shouted from everywhere.

Free elections-my foot.

and u respond with

somnath wrote: Of course, its a POV, and if someone believes that the Indian voters are only into saris and 100 rupees,

Selective quoting , obfuscating, selectively answering etc is a nice game eh?