Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

[UBanerjee]

^^ Its true the jury is out on some of those, but one can't help but notice a pattern.

Let no one denigrate the army in the slightest for the service & duty they perform, each and everyone is certainly doing more than all of us combined. At the same time, the army should realize that part of bharat rakshak is heavy indigenization regardless of having the latest & greatest, and should work with the govt. to move more aggressively on that front. Willingness to nurture domestic MIC even if it comes at a cost, instead of treating it as "just another MIC whose products are to be objectively valuated".

There's certainly nothing technically wrong with claiming this is not their responsibility. But that is a little disappointing.

[rohitvats]

^^ Its true the jury is out on some of those, but one can't help but notice a pattern.

Can you help me understand this pattern with examples? One that I know of is that of Arjun and another is that of mortar we bought from Israel (though it is not a open and shut case like Arjun). Which else? And I'm sure, since you, and many others seem to talk about this "pattern", there will quite many examples for a pattern to actualy emerge.

At the same time, the army should realize that part of bharat rakshak is heavy indigenization and should work with the govt. to move more aggressively on that front.

Quite right. And as I asked the poster before you, can you, or for that anyone else for that matter, tell me the items which the DPSUs have projected and which have been rejected off-hand for imports? It is nice and dandy to talk about the indigenization - but what about the ability of the local DPSU or private companies to produce the same?

But that is a little disappointing

And translate that disappointment into name calling? Or, rather than treating each case on its own merit, paint the whole IA/Services with one brush?

[Rahul M]

You are missing the fact that Nag is ready and is still not being inducted...

And you're missing a small fact that PARS3-LR and Nag are not in the same league...

sorry, I am not sure in what way they are dissimilar.

edit: ah saw it, you are saying pars3lr == helina, fair enough. plz ignore this post.

although, I might add that if helina is indeed available in 2013, why this pars-lr competition now ? there's no way it will come before 2013.

p.p.s and I strongly disagree with the characterization.

[Gurneesh]

And my argument was especially with respect to the PARS3-LR and HELINA. By bringing in the Nag argument, you're shifting the goal post. In fact, you replied with "Nag being delayed" argument to a specific comment on PARS3 and HELINA by indranilroy. This is what he said:

And my post followed after the above post from you. Can you tell me, how is your reply related to comment/question asked by the poster whose post I have quoted?

I get it. But i think after Chako's initial post, there were two sets of concerns that arose: those who were worried that PARS will kill or atleast undermine HELINA and those who were angry at last minute delay in Nag Induction (when chako said "IA will not induct Nag"). I reflected the second sentiment in that reply but yes it may not be that related to the previous post. But the posts by nachiket and Rahul M after mine were direct answer to the said post reflecting the first sentiment.

While IA does have mud on its hand - can you list for my benefit how many domestic products, which were offered, the IA has refused to induct? Let me give you a hint - try and visit some of the websites of the labs under DRDO, check what all they make, and how many of them have been inducted in IA/Services. Let me know the %age of products listed which IA/Services may have rejected. And, may be then, you can call the IA as against "desi stuff".

Indian Defense industry is peculiar. They were tasked at making their first tank as the best in world, their first missiles as best in world all that on a budget that any other defense establishment will laugh at.

So, when a product comes up that is markedly superior than anything that the army has or is procuring, any hesitation or delay by the army to induct it will be demoralizing to say the least. The stuff in question is not relatively low tech products but the bigger budget high tech products like tanks, missiles etc. The so called crown jewels or to say that involve a lot of money. The type of projects that can save a mil complex (t90 etc.). The type of projects that can also give a lot of confidence to the developer if accepted and inducted in numbers. Talk about Arjun, Tank-EX, IA's desire to get a new AR not related to INSAS, now the Nag Induction delay. The names may be few but they are big enough to create a big impact.

Infact ALH Dhruv is the only big name project that army seems to have inducted but then can any other heli boast of supporting Siachin in a way that ALH can.

[Pratyush]

If the PAARS 3 is selected by the IA and the intended platforms are the LCH and WSI Dhruv along with Helos in contention for the assault helo platforms. Then the question in why have the a euro missile on a potentially Russian / US platform. Will the non euro vender accept the task of integration of a non proprietary weapon. Also the LCH will need another 3 to 4 years of testing before it can enter service.

That being the case the NEED for the PAARs 3 is not that urgent. The IA and the IAF can wait for the HELINA for the LCH.

But by getting the PAARS 3 now. The IA is acting in a premptive manner to close the door on the HELINA.

[akimalik]

There is nary a word on the status of Helina, or on exact status on this air-launched ATGM business and yet,

There is news on the HELINA, however, it seems that the IA chooses to be blind-sighted.

http://frontierindia.net/helina-missile ... k-realised

Rohit you may chose to defend the IA no end ... and frankly thats your call.

But can someone explain to me why the DRDO must be shackled to a user who finds "greener" pastures elsewhere?

Why must the Indian taxpayer be paying for R&D that the chaps in IA refuse to accept. Let us accept that the IA is its infinite (read unfathomable) wisdom has made its choice/recommendation. In that case, let us accept the verdict (as we expect the MMRCA contenders to do) but why stop the DRDO from realizing the potential of their products?

Maybe DRDO should be permitted to sell these weapon systems to other countries. Why should it be captive developer when the buyer isn't interested?

And if we argue that DRDO is India-specific .... then why not the IA?

[chackojoseph]

And you're missing a small fact that PARS3-LR and Nag are not in the same league...

Rohitvats,

See, the problem is that "other missle" IA is trying to use as a scuttle for NAG is also not the same league. However, its being done. Another of the point that is emerging is "this class not required" argument. Hopefully, you will hear it this sooner or later on the print.

The outcome of this was the DRDO Chief's address and "there has been silence from the Army." Army has not denied this.

I remember, lst time, DRDO had said something on forces to measure up, army went into press to show its displeasure. This is avaliable if you search.


There is a small order quantity which was issued in 2009 (?). Now, the missile is ready (2010) and then DRDO Chief has issues the statement (June 2011).

IMO, Helina will survive "only if IAF" retains the attack helio fleet.

[vic]

Nobody is denigrating the Jawan who are used as a pretext for (corrupt) Service Brass to further their own agenda. What was that phrase? Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel?? I would say well being of the Jawan and reference to their sacrifices is the "only" refuge of the corrupt, incompetent and morons.

[chackojoseph]

I just want to emphasize, this is the latest stuff I am talking about. I don't know how this will end up in future. Especially, after Arjun Tank comeback, anything can heppen.

[Singha]

imo here is the situation:

WSI dhruv has completed or about to complete its cannon and rocket trials and is production ready.

the Helina has not had a single test so far . nobody knows how much change the basic Nag needs for helina. charitably one can say it will take 3 more yrs to complete tests and 1 more yr to be production ready after post-test changes and retests.

WSI dhruv production cannot be held up for another 4-5 years because in Leh/Tawang apart from lumbering Mi17v with vikhr rockets we do not have any ATGM equipped gunship helis. the Mi35 cannot operate there due to performance shortfall.

so PARS (if ready) or Vikhr or Hellfire is only option to get moving and start full production after integration test.

Helina is hence not even in contention for WSI dhruv
---

LCH production might also start 4-5 yrs now by which time Helina should be ready - someone will have to take a call whether Helina vs hellfire/pars then - desi maal vs commonality with WSI dhruv. the helina could also be retrofitted into WSI dhruv then.
the IA top brass will have to make the call *then*

--
whether we go buy AH64D or Mi28N its a given they will come with their own atgm hellfire or ataka - neither will integrate their missile with the others helicopter. PARS could be done on AH64 at extra cost if needed and so can Helina if the IA wants it.

--

now the fault if any lies in whoever ran the Helina proj in not anticipating the increased specs needed (8km range) to match the latest crop of ATGMs and working on it sooner .... the basic Nag having issues with its guidance for a long time might have led to them focussing on getting the base model working first. WSI dhruv also got into high gear only in last couple of years.

the bar is constantly moving and the $20 bil giants of mil-ind worldwide are able to churn out multiple products quickly because they have the building blocks and old test data already in place plus good nos of high level manpower. we are constantly having to play catch up in a situation where IA can import anything from anywhere incl best of breed stuff.

[rohitvats]

I get it. But i think after Chako's initial post, there were two sets of concerns that arose: those who were worried that PARS will kill or atleast undermine HELINA and those who were angry at last minute delay in Nag Induction (when chako said "IA will not induct Nag"). <SNIP>

Last minute request for changes in Nag, or NAMICA to be precise, is an old story which has been already discussed. As I said in my post, IMO, the jury is still out on this one. And I'll believe that IA is out to scuttle the deal when I see the news and not form an opinion on nudge-nudge-wink-wink post by CJ.

Indian Defense industry is peculiar. They were tasked at making their first tank as the best in world, their first missiles as best in world all that on a budget that any other defense establishment will laugh at.

I see you've clearly side stepped the question that I'd asked - that is, of all the products from DRDO stable, please let me know the percentage of systems rejected by IA. But then, we'll see the if the label of "phoren maal" pasand holds.

As for the issue of 1st tank/missile to be the best and all that - well, it takes two to tango. The DRDO could have refused to accept the GSQR for the missile or the MBT. IA was foolish to ask for the moon as far as Arjun was concerned and DRDO was idiotic enough to accept that they'll do it - and that too, in the required timeframe. There is enough material on this story on BR Archives itself. You might want to help yourself on it. Same goes for Nag ATGM. Which brings me to a question - what was the rationale to develop Nag in the first place? Common sense tells me that IA should have asked for 4th Gen man-portable ATGM. But why such a specialized piece of equipment? If anyone has answers, please let me know.

<SNIP>Infact ALH Dhruv is the only big name project that army seems to have inducted but then can any other heli boast of supporting Siachin in a way that ALH can

So, if the IA accepts something from DRDO stable, it is because it had no choice but if it rejects, something will be sure fishy. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. How about a simple case of a product meeting the requirements of the IA (Dhruv in this case) and hence, the large scale induction? Pinaka is another example of that. Or, are you telling me products need to be inducted just because DRDO made/attempted to made them?

As for the big ticket items - is that all the what the IA or Services are made of? Are you going to use the same set of examples to point fingers at the army the moment you hear some news and with out bothering to check the facts? That is what gets my goat. Because IA did not induct the Arjun in large numbers, it is not going to induct system XYZ from DRDO and scuttle it. Please treat each case on its own merit rather than calling IA names.

[rohitvats]

Nobody is denigrating the Jawan who are used as a pretext for (corrupt) Service Brass to further their own agenda. What was that phrase? Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel?? I would say well being of the Jawan and reference to their sacrifices is the "only" refuge of the corrupt, incompetent and morons.

And I guess, a post like above is sure indication of somebody needing quick access to a psychiatrist!

[chackojoseph]

And I'll believe that IA is out to scuttle the deal when I see the news and not form an opinion on nudge-nudge-wink-wink post by CJ.

I have also quoted the DRDO Chief. It's not excatly nudge.

If you remember, I had said this even before the Swarswat spoke that in the scientist award function.

[rohitvats]

<SNIP> There is news on the HELINA, however, it seems that the IA chooses to be blind-sighted.

http://frontierindia.net/helina-missile ... k-realised

Rohit you may chose to defend the IA no end ... and frankly thats your call.

Thank you very much for quoting that link.

Now, please tell me this: When is the user trial of HELINA planned? How long after the user trials will the system be inducted and mated to respective platform? And what happens to WSI Dhruv till then? Singha has a nice and long post on the topic...you might want to refer to that.

As for defending the IA - there is subtle difference between passing slur on the Army as an organization and criticising "some" of its actions. Please be my guest and criticise the IA for asking last minute changes to NAMICA when the system was infront of them all these years or the delay in Arjun;there is ample case for both of these. But please don't expect me to accept name calling on the IA as a whole or pass ungratuitous remarks like the one by ramana. For all it warts and pimples, it still does more Bharat-Rakshak than the internet warriors like myself or other BRFites. The least one can do while criticizing the IA for its decisions is to show respect which has been earned with sweat and blood. Actions or comments of few indivisuals (like the DGMF on Arjun) does not give license to anyone to pain the whole organization with same brush. That is all I ask.

[rohitvats]

imo here is the situation:

WSI dhruv has completed or about to complete its cannon and rocket trials and is production ready.

the Helina has not had a single test so far . nobody knows how much change the basic Nag needs for helina. charitably one can say it will take 3 more yrs to complete tests and 1 more yr to be production ready after post-test changes and retests.

WSI dhruv production cannot be held up for another 4-5 years because in Leh/Tawang apart from lumbering Mi17v with vikhr rockets we do not have any ATGM equipped gunship helis. the Mi35 cannot operate there due to performance shortfall.

so PARS (if ready) or Vikhr or Hellfire is only option to get moving and start full production after integration test.

Helina is hence not even in contention for WSI dhruv
---

LCH production might also start 4-5 yrs now by which time Helina should be ready - someone will have to take a call whether Helina vs hellfire/pars then - desi maal vs commonality with WSI dhruv. the helina could also be retrofitted into WSI dhruv then.
the IA top brass will have to make the call *then*

--
whether we go buy AH64D or Mi28N its a given they will come with their own atgm hellfire or ataka - neither will integrate their missile with the others helicopter. PARS could be done on AH64 at extra cost if needed and so can Helina if the IA wants it.

--

now the fault if any lies in whoever ran the Helina proj in not anticipating the increased specs needed (8km range) to match the latest crop of ATGMs and working on it sooner .... the basic Nag having issues with its guidance for a long time might have led to them focussing on getting the base model working first. WSI dhruv also got into high gear only in last couple of years.

the bar is constantly moving and the $20 bil giants of mil-ind worldwide are able to churn out multiple products quickly because they have the building blocks and old test data already in place plus good nos of high level manpower. we are constantly having to play catch up in a situation where IA can import anything from anywhere incl best of breed stuff.

Thank you for taking the effort to post the above on the topic.

[akimalik]

And I'll believe that IA is out to scuttle the deal when I see the news and not form an opinion on nudge-nudge-wink-wink post by CJ.

I believe the IA will place an grand order of 124+124 Helinas as well to ensure that we will never come across such a news item.
They will not reject it, they will simple not accept it .
Thus they shall remain, spotlessly clean living by the "argumentum ad ignorantiam".

IA was foolish to ask for the moon as far as Arjun was concerned and DRDO was idiotic enough to accept that they'll do it - and that too, in the required timeframe.

Well, by that measure idiotic once, idiotic twice.... and so the story (arithmetic progression) goes.

p.s. : No more rants from me.

[rohitvats]

Rohitvats,

See, the problem is that "other missle" IA is trying to use as a scuttle for NAG is also not the same league. However, its being done. Another of the point that is emerging is "this class not required" argument. Hopefully, you will hear it this sooner or later on the print.

Are you refering to purchase of Javelin?

IMO, Helina will survive "only if IAF" retains the attack helio fleet.

You might want to see the post from Singha on the timeline for induction of WSI Dhruv and shed some light if you information to that line of thought.

[rohitvats]

<SNIP> p.s. : No more rants from me.

This is the issue - rants and ill-infomed opinions pass of as serious debating points on various issues...if some one ends up insluting the Services, what goes my father! Brilliant indeed.

[chackojoseph]

Are you refering to purchase of Javelin?

IMO, Helina will survive "only if IAF" retains the attack helio fleet.

You might want to see the post from Singha on the timeline for induction of WSI Dhruv and shed some light if you information to that line of thought.

DRDO has given the date 2013. Its been arrived at with concents. The quoted helio's like Dhruv varient, KA-52 and Mi-28 are not there with IA either. I am not expecting them to be with IA for a forseable future like say 2015.

I see, IAF working on Helina for the time being.

[pragnya]

rohitvats,

can you clear it for me the confusion of so many ATGMs being talked about here -

1. Javelin (under consideration) - man portable. this is clear but what will it replace?? Milans??

2. Spike (supposedly ordered) - to be installed on BMP 2s - to replace konkurs and Milans.

3. NAG - again on BMP - 2(?) NAMICAS?? to replace again Konkurs and Milans??

4. Pars (shortlisted) - stopgap (?) for HELINA??

a link - Indian Army goes for Israeli Spike ATGM and Homemade NAG ATGM, Contemplates Javelin from U.S

isn't it better to have a commonality atleast wrt BMP - 2 installed ATGMs??

TIA.

[rohitvats]

rohitvats,

can you clear it for me the confusion of so many ATGMs being talked about here -

1. Javelin (under consideration) - man portable. this is clear but what will it replace?? Milans??

2. Spike (supposedly ordered) - to be installed on BMP 2s - to replace konkurs and Milans.

3. NAG - again on BMP - 2(?) NAMICAS?? to replace again Konkurs and Milans??

4. Pars (shortlisted) - stopgap (?) for HELINA??

a link - Indian Army goes for Israeli Spike ATGM and Homemade NAG ATGM, Contemplates Javelin from U.S

isn't it better to have a commonality atleast wrt BMP - 2 installed ATGMs??

TIA.

(1) Javelin - Man-portable 3rd gen Fire and Forget ATGM. These will replace the Milan ATGM versions in the IA Service. IIRC, some ~9000 missiles of the type will be ordered.
(2) Spike - not ordered. IIRC, it had failed some tests in the country. As it is, I don't think IA has planned any upgrades for BMP-I/II. Another point one needs to remember is that the dimensions of ATGM from other countries might not be compatible for storage/fitting on BMP-I/II.
(3) Nag - it has no comparison in the IA service or even around the world. A class of its own - and IMO, a real potent system and a game changer. In the same league as Hellfire - though, Hellfire has no ground launched version that I'm aware of.
(4) PARS3-LR - Yes, seems like "one" of the A2G ATGM which has been short-listed. But I don't have information as to when was such an RFP floated and why?

Javelin will complement the Tandem Warhead version of Milan ordered (...or shoved down the throat of IA). Some 15,000 Konkurs were ordered for the BMP-I/II in IA service. Considering the number of BMP-I/II in IA service, that is some 6 missiles per BMP. It has been alleged that we're short of the authorized holding numbers of ATGMs.

The next challenge is to develop a domestic manportable version of Nag/3rd gen F&F ATGM. Them Javelins are expensive piece of equipments.

[Pratyush]

The concern that exists is that once a foreign weapon has entered service with the IA. It will reduce the incentive of the IA to choose the domestic equivalent of that weapon for the IA.

Second WRT, the Javelin purchase. I have seen reports of up to 25000 weapons planned in the Inventory of the IA. With full TOT and domestic manufacture of the weapon. This was seen in the discussion for the Javelin last year when the news of the potential purchase came out.

If I am not mistaken the Spike is in the same category as the Javelin. With the Gill being the heavy category weapon (TOW replacement ).

At the same time, the MP NAG that was announced in 2004/5 has not seen a single test flight (To the best of my knowledge). Yet the Javelin had become an urgent requirement for the IA. Subsequent to it being showcased to the IA during the 2009 war games by the US army and can be understood to an extent that the MP nag did not enter the test flight programme. The reasons for the same are not clear.


The fear is that the IA will do exactly what it did with the Arjun and then end up shifting the goal posts. As they have already delayed the induction for the Nag by calling for the changes in the launcher. After god knows how many years of having tested the NAMICA. Lets hope that the IA accepts the NAG and they dont call for for a Future ATGM with the future ATGM carriers.

[pragnya]

As it is, I don't think IA has planned any upgrades for BMP-I/II. Another point one needs to remember is that the dimensions of ATGM from other countries might not be compatible for storage/fitting on BMP-I/II.

rohitvats thanks.

wrt the bolded - there were RFIs for upgrades to BMP 2/2K TO BMP-2M.

http://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/ ... 180110.pdf

http://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/ ... 131109.pdf

however i am not well versed with these. may be you can infer better.

[rajanb]

Thanks Rohit.

[jai]

Helina is still years away from production and induction. DRDO is currently projecting a 2013 completion, and there is no guarantee that the date will hold, it may extend by another three years for all we know. its a research project and evolving and creating technology takes time so its ok for DRDO to put in the time required. Its not OK for services to not have equipment for years because DRDO is still developing it.

WSI Dhruv is ready now, and needs the best missiles it can carry. If army feels PARS is the right missile for it for now, they should get sufficient numbers to cover the next 4-5 years for the numbers of platforms they are going to induct. IMO, it would be criminal to keep WSI Dhruvs without missiles and delay weapon testing of LCH just because Helina is not ready.


Helina can be inducted once it is ready and gradually numbers can be built up.

DRDO and other govt owned defence agencies are notorious for their time and cost overruns, that's why IAF is asking for an Air Marshall to now head HAL.

As there is no clear RFP right now, for all we know, this may be a tactic to pressurize DRDO to complete Helina work quicker.

Or, it may be a part of the deal to get some technology from MBDA which could some day support Helina as well, we can only guess right now as motives are seldom expressed, specially by the Army who are quieter than their sister services when it comes to press announcements, Gen Singh included.

If not, I am happy that Dhruv will get a good missile - if MOD lets Army buy it.

I also believe Nag is a completely different system, and the PARS order may not have anything to do with NAG. Helina yes, Nag no. For all we know, NAG may see the required induction.

Point also is, right now, we do have Milans and Konkurs, so inducting NAG a year or two later does not make an earth shattering difference, whereas we currently do not have any missile systems inducted for WSI Dhruv, so the need is different IMO, which may be driving Army's prioritization of induction of different systems. As they will never announce this in public, we can wait and watch and hope for the best.......which in any case is all we can do

[rohitvats]

As it is, I don't think IA has planned any upgrades for BMP-I/II. Another point one needs to remember is that the dimensions of ATGM from other countries might not be compatible for storage/fitting on BMP-I/II.

rohitvats thanks.

wrt the bolded - there were RFIs for upgrades to BMP 2/2K TO BMP-2M.

http://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/ ... 180110.pdf

http://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/ ... 131109.pdf

however i am not well versed with these. may be you can infer better.

Thanks for those links.

The second one for sure talks about significant upgrade in the fighting-potential of BMP-1/2. I was not aware of it.

And it talks of new F&F ATGM for these vehicles along with improved electro-optronics. But then, I have heard nothing on this front so far.

Added later:

There is an AW&ST article dated 2010 on LCH which says that HELINA is supposed to be the main ATGM for LCH but IAF is looking at PARS-3LR, Spike and Hellfire as interim measure.

[nikhilarora]

With all due respect to everyone and hurting no one's feelings, would like to make a point here. During my SSC exams for the IAF, we had to go for our medicals, there some soldiers had been brought from siachen with sever frost bite in their fingers. We couldn't see them but the other officers were speaking of it and they said that it was because of the sub-standard gloves procured from foriegn countries at exorbitant prices. The jawans who actually are defending us in such horrid conditions have to suffer so much, they are not the decision makers and on most occasions they have no say, it is left to the superior officers (sitting in their plush HQs and MODs) to take honest decisions who thrust such things at them. And they have to accept them. There are several instances as such. No one is denigrating the army here, they are the best things that could happen to a country like ours. But people are susceptible to corruption specially people at top. Lets not get into such stories. Would like to end this in one note "in the Arjun MBT trails video, the jawan has happily praised the ARJUN as his protector and how much trust he had in the system, its a trust that he does with his life". Just says it all.

[Gaur]

Something really interesting which Hari Nair Sir had said some time back:

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... na#p927147

Helina is in DRDO's domain. We perhaps, need to have an amenable DRDO scientist logging in to our forum to answer questions on specific timelines! You mentioned 'alternate ATGMs' - we would then be assuming Helina to be the default ATGM missile for the LCH, which may not be the case.

[Austin]

http://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/ ... 131109.pdf

however i am not well versed with these. may be you can infer better.

How strange or co-incidental the RFP is custom designed to upgrade to BMP-2M standard with Anti-Tank Weapons , 30 MM AGL and EO which is what the pictures and upgrade below mentions

http://www.primeportal.net/apc/yuri_pas ... php?Page=3
http://www.interarms.ru/arhiv/n1_2010/k ... vehicles1/

[Singha]

the IA is probably desperate to get itself some anti tank helicopter power to cover against chinese armour units in north sikkim and ladakh. WSI dhruv and LCH are the only things able to operate at those levels with any useful payload (maybe reduced number of missiles vs operating in the plains). LCH will take 5 yrs to get production ready, WSI is almost production ready and they would likely want some units operational asap rather than wait for helina to be ready in 4-5 yrs.

the big lizard has his own schedule, which does not necessarily dovetail with when our best shots are ready. from his pov, its best to lash out when india is underprepared.

Mi17v does fire vikhr atgms...but its too large a target to be survivable against any form of mobile AA/SAM accompanying the armour columns..and vikhr unlike their hermes concept is not overly blessed with standoff ranges (not that we have the EO/radar to exploit it either on the Mi17v).

IA needs to be ready to fight a war tomorrow if need be, and GOI doesnt accept any excuses. so they are going in for whats available - though I think the laser guided Hellfire2 would be a more proven and cheaper option per round.

[pragnya]

http://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/ ... 131109.pdf

however i am not well versed with these. may be you can infer better.

How strange or co-incidental the RFP is custom designed to upgrade to BMP-2M standard with Anti-Tank Weapons , 30 MM AGL and EO which is what the pictures and upgrade below mentions

http://www.primeportal.net/apc/yuri_pas ... php?Page=3
http://www.interarms.ru/arhiv/n1_2010/k ... vehicles1/

neither strange nor co-incidental. seems the RFI is written around and for that!!

[Austin]

neither strange nor co-incidental. seems the RFI is written around and for that!!

This is for another thread but the upgrades 2M standard if done is much better platform to fight with compared to the 2K we operate , they should upgrade it since they have not done any thing significant on it since they rolled out from SU factory in early 80's

[gakakkad]

@ rohit I get your point of view now. We were premature in commenting. The Army has a short fall of close to 40000 units. it plans to order huge number of javelins.

heres an old news item (aug 2010)

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... -anti-tank

so finally could some1 summarise what are we buying ?

It was not possible for drdo to fulfil the requirements quickly . As per some source they could only make 100 atgms a month. We need 40000 odd atgms .

[rohitvats]

http://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/ ... 131109.pdf

however i am not well versed with these. may be you can infer better.

How strange or co-incidental the RFP is custom designed to upgrade to BMP-2M standard with Anti-Tank Weapons , 30 MM AGL and EO which is what the pictures and upgrade below mentions

http://www.primeportal.net/apc/yuri_pas ... php?Page=3
http://www.interarms.ru/arhiv/n1_2010/k ... vehicles1/

He he he...guess, the little secret is out!

That aside, if the BMP-II in IA service can reach the same standard as the one in the link above, it would represent a great increment in the firepower. As it is, with the planned induction if FICV by the end of this decade, BMP-II will need to soldier on for another decade at least.

[vic]

(1) Javelin - Man-portable 3rd gen Fire and Forget ATGM. These will replace the Milan ATGM versions in the IA Service. IIRC, some ~9000 missiles of the type will be ordered.

It is the most advanced missile in its category in the world due to its “sensor” which is better than spike/gill series. But the import will only be justified if we get technology to manufacture the “sensor”

Though I thought that we have also imported Kornets and Israel is pushing laser guided missiles through DRDO, what was it called CLGMs? and it also has portable/man portable versions

(2) Spike - not ordered. IIRC, it had failed some tests in the country. As it is, I don't think IA has planned any upgrades for BMP-I/II. Another point one needs to remember is that the dimensions of ATGM from other countries might not be compatible for storage/fitting on BMP-I/II.

I thought advanced Konkors were ordered IIRC 15,000 and Israel is pushing laser guided missiles through DRDO, what was it called CLGMs? and it also has versions

(3) Nag - it has no comparison in the IA service or even around the world. A class of its own - and IMO, a real potent system and a game changer. In the same league as Hellfire - though, Hellfire has no ground launched version that I'm aware of.

Wonder how many Nags will be ordered? And whether it will be adapted to other versions like firing from light trucks for rapid response teams etc? Hellfire does have ground launched version if anybody wants it.

(4) PARS3-LR - Yes, seems like "one" of the A2G ATGM which has been short-listed. But I don't have information as to when was such an RFP floated and why?

Israel – spike, Europe PARS and US- Hellfire are all competing. Knowing our Services, everybody will get a piece

The next challenge is to develop a domestic manportable version of Nag/3rd gen F&F ATGM. Them Javelins are expensive piece of equipments.

We first heard about it many years back, including its weight of 14kg but no further reports. The issue is whether we can make thermal/IR sensors for missiles? Average price of Javelin will come out at around Rs 1 crore, no way 9000 will be ordered

[Pratyush]

^^^

The IAs decision WRT the NAMICA was a mystery till now. No more after seeing the images of the upgrade for the BMP.

It in a way makes a lot of sense. Just add NAG to the package and you have one of the most potent ICV on the planet.

JMT

[Gaur]

^^
What has one got to do with other?

[Pratyush]

^^^

Look at it from the POV of the changes that have been suggested for the NAMICA by the IA. Secondly the possibility exists that the ATGM may be replaced with the NAG. Thereby eliminating the need for the NAMICA all together.

[Rahul M]

both the assumptions are dubious IMHO.

[UBanerjee]

Old article with some photos

Javelin at Yudh Abhyas 09