Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

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tsarkar
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by tsarkar »

rohitvats wrote:The second one for sure talks about significant upgrade in the fighting-potential of BMP-1/2. I was not aware of it.
Austin wrote:How strange or co-incidental the RFP is custom designed to upgrade to BMP-2M standard with Anti-Tank Weapons , 30 MM AGL and EO which is what the pictures and upgrade below mentions http://www.primeportal.net/apc/yuri_pas ... php?Page=3
http://www.interarms.ru/arhiv/n1_2010/k ... vehicles1/
I believe the BMP-2M is already under manufacture at OFB in the recent 275 vehicle order at Medak and Jabalpur. Refer picture here http://ofbindia.nic.in/index.php

The Indian upgrade should use Konkurs-M instead of Kornet.
Austin
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Austin »

tsarkar wrote:I believe the BMP-2M is already under manufacture at OFB in the recent 275 vehicle order at Medak and Jabalpur. Refer picture here http://ofbindia.nic.in/index.php

The Indian upgrade should use Konkurs-M instead of Kornet.
Could be some kind of prototype vehicle , since they do not mention about the M model in their product page which i suppose they would proudly do if they series manufacture it but the vehical quite closely resembles the Russian upgrade offer.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Austin »

I am just wondering what would be the logistic/cost/spares burden of IA/IAF operating many different types of Anti-Tank missile from US,Europe ,French ,Russian and Indian stable , why cant they just buy a single type say pars or javelin or kornet and do a JV with the OEM for portable , tracked and air-launched variant of the same missile so that they can achieve standardisation of ATGM across all services till such time we end up with Nag replacing them in similar multi role/platform version.

The current version of ATGM and future procurement looks to me very insane where each individual requirement like eg man portable requirement is looked upon in the narrowest sense and purpose as possible with little need to standardise on ATGM requirenment , this can also be said about almost all our weapons purchase which end in much duplication of effort
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Surya »

I am just wondering what would be the logistic/cost/spares burden of IA/IAF operating many different types of Anti-Tank missile from US,Europe ,French ,Russian and Indian stable , why cant they just buy a single type say pars or javelin or kornet and do a JV with the OEM for portable , tracked and air-launched variant of the same missile so that they can achieve standardisation of ATGM across all services till such time we end up with Nag replacing them in similar multi role/platform version
if only one could get our wishes although it may not be possible with 1 but defintely with two systems

one for personnel use (Milan\Javelin) and the other vehicle\helo etc
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Singha »

well even sher khan uses javelin, tow2 and hellfire (10 different versions exist).
Austin
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Austin »

Yes but for Sher Khan those are local made system where as in our case it come from 3 or 4 different countries plus one local system but the key point is if you have so many diverse missile then you end up spending more on training , procurement , logistics chain and lic production cost , all in all if you have x amount of money you will get more from the same amount if you standardise and stream line your logistics.

I am quite surprised that the standardisation and logistics issue some how is over looked by defense service as a whole over getting best system for each task.
one for personnel use (Milan\Javelin) and the other vehicle\helo etc


Yes can have a cost effective and expensive category of atgm system which can be operated service wide for different roles , but one need give each system multirole capability so that you have more common in them for eg a manportable , ICV and heli launched Javelin will still have 80-90 % commonality in missile and targetting system. compared to operating 2 different and diverse system like pars and javelin.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

That can come only once we master the seeker-tech. If we can do that, Nag is a prime candidate to serve as test-bed for evolution of current and future ATGMs of varying sizes for Services.
Austin
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Austin »

Test success strengthens MBDA's PARS 3 campaign for India
The Indian army has shortlisted the PARS 3 design among possible weapon systems for its future Hindustan Aeronautics advanced light helicopter fleet, while the infrared-guided type is also being offered by MBDA Deutschland with candidates the Kamov Ka-52 and Mil Mi-28 under a separate attack helicopter requirement. Boeing's AH-64D Apache Longbow is also in contention for the latter deal.

MBDA said a Tiger conducted three test firings in support of the Indian campaign at Sweden's Vidsel test range during April. Two were made against fixed targets from a range of 7km (3.8nm), while the other was a short-range shot at a moving target from 700m.

"All three missiles were equipped with live warheads and all three struck their intended targets at the optimal hit points," the company said.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

rohitvats wrote:That can come only once we master the seeker-tech. If we can do that, Nag is a prime candidate to serve as test-bed for evolution of current and future ATGMs of varying sizes for Services.
That is the key. We have for far too long been stifled on this front - be it Nag, Brahmos, LRSAM etc. "Seeker Technology" needs to be broken out and dedicated labs be created for it - like HEMRL for materials, LRDE for radars etc. This is a complex, fast evolving and expensive area where we need to apply our national will to achieve self reliance. Leaving seeker development as a sub-program under missile development is not going to work any longer.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Shrinivasan »

Prem Kumar wrote:That is the key. We have for far too long been stifled on this front - be it Nag, Brahmos, LRSAM etc. "Seeker Technology" needs to be broken out and dedicated labs be created for it - like HEMRL for materials, LRDE for radars etc.
I agree with you 100%, we need to pool together the knowledge gleaned from different projects, be it screw driver manufacture, licensed production, TOT, JV ityaadi, create a new lab with people pulled from these groups and start a time-bound initiative.
Desh has a good # of Xerox Singhs in Khan land, Uurope and UKistan, they can be secretly roped in too, some amount of tech buying by way off offsets / lolipop deals would also help kickstart. Couple of Big JV with Israel would also help.
Beb, Borrow, steal, we need Seeker technology.

A similar focused initiative is needed for different types of Engines. GTRE budget needs to be doubled to produce a portfolio of engines. JMT.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Shrinivasan »

rohitvats wrote:That can come only once we master the seeker-tech. If we can do that, Nag is a prime candidate to serve as test-bed for evolution of current and future ATGMs of varying sizes for Services.
What are the different classes of missiles needed? Let me make a list...
1) ManPortable ATGM (1 in launcher, 4-5 to be carried per squad by man or machine)
2) Jeep mounted ATGM (1 in launcher, maybe a dozen reloads in Jeep)
3) APC/ICV mounted ATGM (2 launchers, 2 in launcher and couple of dozen reloads in vehicle - tradeoff with troops)
4) NAMICA style dedicated carrier mounted ATGM (4 launchers, and couple of dozen reloads in vehicle)
5) Heli Launched ATGM
6) Ground Attack aircraft launched ATGM

To achieve these, we need to do multiple things...
1) Seeker technology
2) Reduce Weight / Length
3) Increase explosive yield with a smaller warhead ala CL20...
4) improve guidance...
5) integrate launchers-missiles with sources like UAVs, ground designators, GPS co-ord etc

CJ, probably this can be an FI article?
Sagar G
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Sagar G »

Prem Kumar wrote:
rohitvats wrote:That can come only once we master the seeker-tech. If we can do that, Nag is a prime candidate to serve as test-bed for evolution of current and future ATGMs of varying sizes for Services.
That is the key. We have for far too long been stifled on this front - be it Nag, Brahmos, LRSAM etc. "Seeker Technology" needs to be broken out and dedicated labs be created for it - like HEMRL for materials, LRDE for radars etc. This is a complex, fast evolving and expensive area where we need to apply our national will to achieve self reliance. Leaving seeker development as a sub-program under missile development is not going to work any longer.
Not in case of Nag it has an indigenously developed seeker and RCI is leading the seeker development effort IIRC Saraswat had said that we have leaped far at this front in recent years, maybe in a decade we will complete our learning curve regarding this.
Prem Kumar
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Sagar - you are probably right. We used to use a French IIR seeker for the Nag. I did a bit of Googling and found a Broadsword article by Col. Shukla where he clarified that we have indigenized the seeker
Pranav
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Pranav »

Prem Kumar wrote:Sagar - you are probably right. We used to use a French IIR seeker for the Nag. I did a bit of Googling and found a Broadsword article by Col. Shukla where he clarified that we have indigenized the seeker
I believe the optical and infrared seekers are indigenous. But no millimeter wave seeker as yet. That's required to see through bad weather.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Kartik »

DSCA notification on possible sale of 34 MK-54 lightweight torpedoes to India for the P-8I Neptune fleet.

link to DSCA notification pdf
The Government of India has requested a possible sale of 32 MK-54 All-Up-Round Lightweight Torpedoes, 3 recoverable exercise torpedoes, 1 training shape, containers, spare and repair parts, support and test equipment, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, transportation, U.S. Government and contractor representatives’ technical assistance, engineering and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistics support. The estimated cost is $86 million.

India intends to use the torpedoes on its Indian Navy P-8I Neptune maritime patrol aircraft, which will provide enhanced capabilities in effective defense of critical sea lines of communication.
Singha
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Singha »

US is developing a hi-alt release wing kit for the Mk54 torpedo. we should get this too, when its FOCed
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... rpedo.html

The completed weapon would be installed as part of the first package of upgrades planned for the P-8A after 2014.

The USN has been working on the concept for the past few years. Airframe fatigue for the P-8A's ageing predecessor - the Lockheed P-3C Orion - is partly blamed on the need to practise, descending to low-altitude to release torpedoes.

The navy also wants to keep the P-8A at high altitude so the aircrew can continue monitoring the airspace and maritime environment for new threats.
chackojoseph
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by chackojoseph »

Negotiations for this kit was on in 2010 with India.
Rakesh
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

From Livefist --> Agni-II MRBM heading for operational deployment.

Picture uploaded by livefist onto twitter --> 02 Sept 2010.

http://twitpic.com/2km2xr
Austin
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Austin »

Hopefully close to NE
D Roy
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by D Roy »

From Livefist --> Agni-II MRBM heading for operational deployment.

Picture uploaded by livefist onto twitter --> 02 Sept 2010.

http://twitpic.com/2km2xr
Nope.

Once again it's a rather old pic from the Walchand site which has been around for a long time but in 2010 sensationalism found it.

http://www.walchand.com/DIVISION/defense/3.html

see the second pic from the right.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by csharma »

Wiki talks about Agni 6 missile and says the source is a DRDO news letter. I could not find any reference to Agni 6 in the newsletter.

Can someone shed some light on the differences between Agni 5 and Agni 6? Thanks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agni-VI
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by chackojoseph »

csharma wrote:Wiki talks about Agni 6 missile and says the source is a DRDO news letter. I could not find any reference to Agni 6 in the newsletter.

Can someone shed some light on the differences between Agni 5 and Agni 6? Thanks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agni-VI
The DRDO PDF Link is given below there. If you can't find it,Click
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Shrinivasan »

Rakesh wrote:From Livefist --> Agni-II MRBM heading for operational deployment.
Picture uploaded by livefist onto twitter --> 02 Sept 2010.
the 2 pictures of Agni-II MRBM look cool. The one in camo paint scheme clearly shows operational deployment status... this is a road mobile launcher and a shed like structure could be the cover for the launcher. hopefully they build Hardened shelters for these launchers. The one with a semi raised missile is a rail mobile launcher, the missile looks really long (compared to the launch pics seen till now)...my 2 paise...
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

WRT the Agni and rail mobile version in the link posted above, wasn't there some controversy when some over enthusiastic DRDO/DPSU employee had posted pics/you tube video which for the first time showed the complete rail-mobile version set-up? And the line (iirc, youtube) was pulled down in double quick time?

As for camo-paint - well, that means nothing, actually. And in case if one notices the road-mobile carriage, it still reads DRDO. Had that missile being with IA/Services, the chances of that would be very slim.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by D Roy »

I really don't know why people keep discussing that "agni ready heading for deployment" pic.

It is a picture taken off the walchandnagar industries site where it has been for ages, ages. it's an old pic of the road trailer undergoing testing.

As far as the youtube video - it was an agni-2 rail mobility trial video and I am sure some forumites saved it before it was taken down. JCage by the way, had pointed it out.
Last edited by D Roy on 30 Jun 2011 19:40, edited 1 time in total.
Rakesh
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

D Roy: Thanks for the clarification. However I did mention that livefist uploaded the picture onto twitter in Sept 2010 and not that the picture was taken in Sept 2010. Big Difference :)
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by rajanb »

Wiki says that of the Agni Series, only I, II and III are operational?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by nachiket »

rajanb wrote:Wiki says that of the Agni Series, only I, II and III are operational?
Uh, which other misslie of the Agni series is there?
prithvi

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by prithvi »

what will make our missile systems "respected" enough to be given call sign by NATO?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by ramana »

Why do you seek such respect?
prithvi

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by prithvi »

ramana wrote:Why do you seek such respect?
no I am just curious about the process and decision behind nicknaming weapon systems by NATO.. is that a cold war era practice or still being continued today..? and what are the possible reasons behind them...
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

it's not about respect, it's about threat perception.
prithvi

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by prithvi »

Rahul M wrote:it's not about respect, it's about threat perception.
ok... but operationally how does it help.. from military planning standpoint or so.. is it tough to remember weapon system in native language or pure numbers so assign nomenclature which can be easily followed across a geography? [OT]
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

primarily yes, f.e during WW2 US gave its own names to japanese aircraft like betty, george etc.
during cold war the nato reporting names were assigned to primarily communist bloc countries (well no one else did much weapons research outside of nato and com-bloc anyway) to aid easy identification. the WP nations also gave confusing names to throw outsiders off track, so this was a way nato could keep a tab on it. read more http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_reporting_name
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by shiv »

prithvi wrote:
ramana wrote:Why do you seek such respect?
no I am just curious about the process and decision behind nicknaming weapon systems by NATO.. is that a cold war era practice or still being continued today..? and what are the possible reasons behind them...
The Soviets were literally behind an iron curtaon and the West was unable to see development in the USSR but were nevertheless concerned that developments could be a threat. In the 1950s and 60s Russians used to play the same game of hide and seek about weapons development that the Chinese have played more recently. What that meant was that spy planes and telephoto lenses would capture inages in the USSR and a few of them would be recognized as "more than experimental". For example if you look at Jane's photos of the eariest MiG 21s and Su-7s and 9s - they are blurry enlarged images.

The Soviets might refer to a Type "65Strzhny" or type "ZhPrzxght-74ski" and both might be variants of the same aircraft. To reduce confusion among NATO forces - once a type was identified it was given a code name where the first letter of the name indicated what type it was. For example

F for fighter - Fishbed (Mig 21) , Fitter (Su-9), Flanker (Su-27)
B for bomber Badger (Tu-16), Blinder (Tu-22)
C for transport/civil Cub (An-12), Candid (IL 76), Tu 104 (Camel)
A for AAMs Atoll (K-13), Adder, Aphid etc (can't recall the designations)
S for SSMs - such as Styx

The nomenclature was an attempt to reduce confusing terminology and not a title of "respect". India, like the west has openly indicated what it is developing and has given names that people can use - and so code names are not needed. Also India uses Indic names that are easily written in English and are more easily pronounceable than Russian names by Western sources. So the need for code names does not arise.

Piskologically only Indians "respect" everyone else. Others either fear or mock. No respect shespect.
prithvi

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by prithvi »

Thanks both Shivji and Rahulji...
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

nitpick, SS for SSMs, SA for SAMs.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by shiv »

Rahul M wrote:nitpick, SS for SSMs, SA for SAMs.
The names Rahul, the names, not the codes. Atoll not AAtoll, Styx, not SStyx, Adder, Aphid, Sunburn etc for AAMs and SSMs

SAMs had names starting with G - like Gainful (SA-7), Gecko and Grail (SA-7). ASMs had names staring with K- like "Kent", "Kitchen", "Kangaroo", "Ketch" etc.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

oopsie !
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by rajanb »

nachiket wrote:
rajanb wrote:Wiki says that of the Agni Series, only I, II and III are operational?
Uh, which other misslie of the Agni series is there?
There are Agni II Prime, IV, V and VI.
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