Mass Rapid Transit in India

Pragadeesh · Post by **Pragadeesh** » 11 Jun 2011 01:56

Theo Ji, your posts are most of the times interesting to read.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 11 Jun 2011 03:52

For those interested here's the wheel and suspension of the Las Vegas monorail. I have ridden this several times.

The week before I got there there had been yet another incident of a door opening in mid air. This has happened occasionally with metro's too but the viaduct makes death less likely. One wonders what AMMA is smoking. Twice she has been kicked out, with force and has not learned her lesson.

More images at the link below.

http://www.monorails.org/tMspages/TPMVItires.html

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 13 Jun 2011 05:59

theo,

as you have pointed out, corbusier model does not work in india. and in any case it is super inefficient and is very resource intensive and wasteful. this has been subverted in a unique way in India, where people have converted their garages to stores, often by paying babus to look the other way. while a lot of people try this, it works only in some areas. this does not work everywhere. there are natural areas within a region and those areas naturally/organically transform into multi-use zones.

the next step is to tie this upto transit.

one fallout of this rejection of corbusier model is that diffusion/blurring of boundaries of net source and sink regions. there is still bulk to and fro transit between regions of a city and this flows through major arteries. but there is also significant within region transit.

inter-region transit happens on the clock and during peak hours. intra region is round the clock and is more or less constant load. (obviously more early morning and late evening traffic.)

the problem is arterial roads double up as access roads. and during peak hour, intra region traffic local traffic accumulates over the constant load of local traffic. in india both intra-region and inter-region traffic is high volume.

metro can only address arterial inter region traffic*. its a bulk carrier for that. inter-region also needs bulk carriers. buses, mono and autos are possible modes. autos as they exist are energy inefficient, but that form factor can be valuable. imagine if properly used, how much parking space they can save. they are the only mode of public transport that can do door-to-door service. and this can be invaluable to folks doing shopping for example.

the i think the autos, given their form factor and reach, can be really leveraged if we solve the 'human resources' part of autos. for example, we could put in the money needed for mono on getting the HR of autos down.

the problem is we are expecting intense morality from auto drivers, without concomitant financial intensives. none of us will take a hit on our paychecks, but we expect autowalas to act like gandhis. there are bad guys in their midst. but even the good guys have no insentive to stay good.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 13 Jun 2011 06:12

buses can be run profitably. for example bmtc runs on profit. i initially imagined that it was because of the head babu. but then i have seen bmtc turn profits over years and across babus. its a monopoly business. if then run it half as decently they will have to turn profits.

there are other related issues. one is we need to revisit IRC rules. which are atleast 30 years old. and totally unrelated to conditions in india. for example, lane width. given the number of 2/3 wheelers we have recommended lane widths are totally irrelevant to local conditions.

imagine if every two wheeler lined up one behind the other on a 12 ft lane. how long is the jam going to be?

another thing is i dont know of any indian city that has properly trained traffic engineers on its rolls. what i have seen is senior traffic constables doubling up as traffic engineers.

another funny stuff is dispersion. one city body owns the roads, another the bus tops that are built on it. really funny stuff this is.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 13 Jun 2011 19:54

is it not important to have a system in the first place, rather keep fighting which is best or better? we can have all corrections attended to, one by one having a good plan. I understand, during planning we get to details of choosing the best one, but if it is not done within a time limit, then it is not a plan at all.

we can't be debating for ever.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 14 Jun 2011 06:18

not debating sai. generally expressing disagreement with what amma did to chennai. mono cannot be the backbone of mass transit for cities of any significant size. i have done a bit of reading and am more than convinced.

i'm also ranting that metro* is not the be all and end of public transit. in addition there is a good case for quazi-public modes like autos and taxis. i take my car to work. while i'm at work, for atleast 8 hours of the day it is occupying premium real estate. at the same time i'm paying top dollar for the land my home sits on.

we cry about lack of order in our roads. but order takes lot of discipline, money and resources. for example, you dont find vehicles parked on roads because in a large number of cities in the US > 50% of the land in a city is used for parking. do we have that kind of space?

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 14 Jun 2011 06:43

actually chennai, being a coastal city, is an ideal candidate for mass transit. any well done system will service a lot of people for a long time. mumbai for example, is longer than it is wider, why?

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 14 Jun 2011 06:57

Well, dredge the darn Cooum river and buckingham canal and move non-critical goods through that ! Benefits far outweigh the costs when you have a water body around. It has been under so many scams that it doesn't look like there is any way its going to happen.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 14 Jun 2011 07:02

i dont know chennai, if what you say is possible then they should consider it. but does any heavy freight move through the city?

in any case its always good to rejuvenate water bodies within any city. waterbodies are natural sinks. topological facts/realities. well flowing waterbodies are a sign of a well designed drains and thus city.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 14 Jun 2011 07:11

^^^^

What is being quoted above is classic modernist city planning, think Levit Town or Garden City. Hierarchies of traffic corridors and organized work/play schedules, etc. Much of Massa land is organized this way.

Indian city population densities are simply 'off scale high' compared to such plans. In massa land the highest density in a city outside the urban core rarely exceeds 5000 persons a SQKM. More likely it is in the 500 persons per sqkm range. Compare that to even a simple urban area such as Annanagar in Chennai where now the density approaches 50,000 per sqkm. Not to mention hyper dense regions such as Dharavi where the density is 400,000 persons per sqkm.

I don't think these 'planners' have any idea what it means to provide transportation for 15 million persons every day. A standard 2+2 lane highway in India transports about 10000 persons per hour both directions included. If just 5 million are working you would need 50 such highways through the city. In dense crush mode of 2500 persons per train (not going to super dense cruch of 3500+) we could do it with 5-6 cross city metro lines. Once we build 10+ lines every part of the city of Chennai will be within 2 km of a metro station. At that point no place is more than a 5-10 minute walk/bike away. This what makes super dense Europe livable. This the only solution for Indian cities. Our density does not allow for any dreams. All else is maya.

Buses are only in addition to metro. Buses are too slow and space consuming compared to metro. It take 2+ hours to cross Chennai by bus in peak hour. Auto's are nothing more than toys on this scale and transport capacity.

When we talk about mass transit guys consider time/velocity. It is the key metric.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 14 Jun 2011 07:30

theo i didnt understand whom the post was addressed to. my reading is biased to BLR and MYS, but once i saw saw the numbers (even if sarkari) i was stunned. as alternatives to IRC, i was initally reading TRB. once i saw the numbers i too moved quickly to TfL.

you have the metrics right on the money. that is why i said chennai is ideal. i only disagree that 2km is walkable. it is not - especially with a couple of bags of grocery or a sack full of books.

also 2km grid is very expensive to achieve. in real practical terms in india, to achieve a 2km network you have to convince a whole lot of people - disaffected land owners, pesky NGOs etc etc. In BLR for example, it took more than 3 years and sa whole lot of visits to the courts to finally put down bunch of vested small business interests.

again, i dont disagree buses are crucial. but there is a demand beyond buses and metros. and you are neglecting that and hoping that it will disappear.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 14 Jun 2011 07:56

Theo,
absolutely agree. For a city like madras, public transport has to be multi-dimensional. There is room for metro, buses, auto, personal transport and more. For the kind of population explosion we see wrt people and hence vehicular, there is no way even the metro will be enough.

A criss-cross network of metro is a must. Not sure if a 2 km-grid is possible either economy-wise or buildability-wise. But walking 2 kms in madras isn't easy

But that is where buses come into picture. A unified transportation system works wonders. Singapore is a prime example.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 14 Jun 2011 11:13

Sharadullahji,

Yes once people take a look at the density numbers in India everyone does a double take.

The average speed of a bus in Chennai is now down to 12 kmph. It doesn't matter if we quadruple the number of buses. Total passenger through put remains abysmal. The only thing that can save the city is a full blown metro network.

WRT walking, walking 2 km is not pleasant, esp. in the heat, but we used to walk a hell of a lot more. I remember walking from Kilpauk to Egmore station regularly to catch the suburban. Chennai has a 'karthari' shop on just about every street and mobile cycle carts come to most streets several times a day. The local reliance fresh is a chore to haul from. Keep in mind the traffic distribution in most Indian cities goes roughly like this. Roughly 30 % of the people walk everywhere already. Another 30% use cycles/TW and another 30 % use the bus. Everything else including auto's, cars, taxi's, limo's, political caravans, etc are the remaining 10%. Most people would not notice if they vanished. Esp auto's. Per studies I've followed since the 1980's here is the present situ in Chennai of the top of my head...

In percentage of trips. Don't hold me to exact numbers.

Buses -----25% (down from 40%)
Train -------5%(down from 15%)
Autos-------3% (Yes that is correct)
TW --------20% (up from about 2% in the 80's)
Car----------3%
Cycle -------10% (down from 15%)
Walk --------35%(up from 20% or so)

Can you see what is happening. People are actually preferring to walk. BTW total trips are about 10 Million right now, daily. Expected to be 20 million by 2020.

Yes a integrated transport network is needed but a metro must do 90% of the lifting. No other mode of transport can achieve that combination of speed+capacity+comfort. I don't agree that Chennai has room for all modes of transport. It is obvious on the streets that it can not support 3000 buses. Putting more buses in has only slowed them all down. It can not support the millions of 2 wheelers either. We have to make choices.

I am very certain that in 20 years once the metros are in place most private vehicles will be banned from the really congested areas such as Mylapore, Triplicane, Vadapalani, Purasawalkam, etc. These will become pedestrian only. Perhaps buses on some specific nodes. We might have to go more underground for the metros as other cities have done.

WRT the cost lets keep in mind the GDP of the city of Chennai is about $40 Billion and will be about $100 Billion by 2020. We just need to invest $1 Billion annually for our 8-10 cross city metro networks.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 14 Jun 2011 11:36

Taking people off the road with a metro will lead to better travel times for the buses. So it wouldn't need an increase in number of buses. Just better buses and greater maintenance will lead to faster travel above ground too.

Not to mention a reduction in air pollution! Thats a prime reason to take people off the road. A 2007 report in the Hindu - http://www.hindu.com/2007/04/13/stories ... 430500.htm

nandakumar · Post by **nandakumar** » 14 Jun 2011 13:02

Theo_Fidel wrote:Sharadullahji,

Yes once people take a look at the density numbers in India everyone does a double take.

The average speed of a bus in Chennai is now down to 12 kmph. It doesn't matter if we quadruple the number of buses. Total passenger through put remains abysmal. The only thing that can save the city is a full blown metro network.

WRT walking, walking 2 km is not pleasant, esp. in the heat, but we used to walk a hell of a lot more. I remember walking from Kilpauk to Egmore station regularly to catch the suburban. Chennai has a 'karthari' shop on just about every street and mobile cycle carts come to most streets several times a day. The local reliance fresh is a chore to haul from. Keep in mind the traffic distribution in most Indian cities goes roughly like this. Roughly 30 % of the people walk everywhere already. Another 30% use cycles/TW and another 30 % use the bus. Everything else including auto's, cars, taxi's, limo's, political caravans, etc are the remaining 10%. Most people would not notice if they vanished. Esp auto's. Per studies I've followed since the 1980's here is the present situ in Chennai of the top of my head...

In percentage of trips. Don't hold me to exact numbers.

Buses -----25% (down from 40%)
Train -------5%(down from 15%)
Autos-------3% (Yes that is correct)
TW --------20% (up from about 2% in the 80's)
Car----------3%
Cycle -------10% (down from 15%)
Walk --------35%(up from 20% or so)

Can you see what is happening. People are actually preferring to walk. BTW total trips are about 10 Million right now, daily. Expected to be 20 million by 2020.

Theo Fidel, the numbers that you have quoted even if they are marginally off here and there what can not be disputed is a declining role of public transport. Two things contributed to it. One of course, is the decline in the quality of public transport service, both rail and bus forcing people to opt for private solutions to their transportation needs. But the equally important reason in so far as chennai is concerned, a city i am familiar with, is the change in urban town planning rules introduced during the MGR regime and one which has been expanded by successive regimes.
Typically cities are zoned primarily as residential and commercial. But then no city lends itself to be categorised so beautifully right across its lenght and breadth. Historically some areas presented a mixture of residential and commercial activities. Even Chandigarh which started out with clear demarcation has over the years began to sprout this characteristic. So for town planning purposes, a new term was coined as 'mixed residential' to denote this hybrid character. MGR permitted a number of areas to be labelled as 'mixed residential' and soon all areas came to be classfied as that.
Even though this is a slight digression. i must share this with fellow members on the forum. The most classic case was the St Mary's Road which also happens to be the place where Mr T.N. Seshan chose to pitch tent on retirement. Now somebody wanted a build a hotel on that road. But the problem was that the place was classified as 'residential'. So it became necessary to change the classification. A public notice was issued inviting the public to register their objection. But then nobody reads these public notices and it is no surprise that Seshan too didn't read it. the place wss duly classfied as 'mixed residential'. But a little thing like the fact that the due process was followed wouldn't deter someone like Mr Seshan. He swung into action mobilised the media against the hotel project etc. For a while the battle raged in the media and the Courts. But in the end the area stayed 'mixed residential' and the hotel too came up in due course.
From a mass transit perspective, the lesson is this. Bulk of peoples' movement is on account of the work that they do. (I am leaving out children who commute to school or college students who similarly commute for higher studies). Now lead distances on official commute began to shrink on account of the fact that the whole city was now mixed residential and office complexes sprouted all across the city. In my school and college days, offices meant ' Parry Corner' at the northern most end of the city. Even Mount Road that came to be renamed as Anna Salai and which practically runs North East - South West for a good 15 KMs could claim that label only for small stretch at the Northern limit- a block of 2 KMs from TVS to Simpson factory. Today, Parry's Corner is a pale shadow of its former glorious self with even the Murugappa group one of whose companies (EID Parry) gave the place its name having chosen to vacate a portion of its vast corporate office instrastructure.
If lead distances are shorter or if commutes are structured along absolutely zig zag lines across the city two things happen. One it is tempting for an individual to resort to private solutions for the flexibility that they offer. Two, it becomes impossible to generate volumes across any section that is large enough to justify investments in transport infrastructure such as Metro Rail.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 14 Jun 2011 13:33

Yup, only problem with this mixed residential thingy I noticed is people in CHormpet paalavaram gets jobs in Thrivotyur- Ennore streach. Ennore, Madhavaram- Ambattur gets job in OMR- Neelankarai etc. Ultimately a large no of people in the city are travelling >20KM to thier work places.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 14 Jun 2011 19:24

Nandakumar,

Good post and observation. Several people have observed the same thing.

Let me point out that commercial & shops are allowed in pure residential as well with limit on area in Chennai. I think it is about 500-1000 sqft right. Need to look up the latest ordinance. In any case as you have noted growth has gone its own way. No one could have predicted Sri Perumbudur 30 years back. Parrys corner died because of a lack of transport. Organizations refused to expand or slowly shut down because it was impossible to get there or find spce to expand, say go vertical. We should have invested in new metros & light rail systems but didn't/couldn't. The bus & auto & TW craze has not fixed this mess.

Let me add a point. If we wanted to live as a sleepy retirement city only about 500,000 people can live in the entire city. Even those old 1.5 ground (3600 sqft, typically 40x90) plots are simply uneconomic inside a city. The land values show this to be true. 1 ground in Annanagar now goes for about Rs 2 Crore! If your property tax is valued at just 2%, this would be Rs 4 lakhs annually. Rs 35,000 per month just in property tax on the land value alone. This is what it costs the city and what the city forgoes in income to indulge these idyllic retirement lifestyles.

Truth is Chennai will be going vertical. We don't have the land to give everyone a sleepy little retirement house. For that matter India doesn't have the land for this as well. By getting there first these retirees are condemning the next generation which is 90% working population to live in inhuman conditions. Yet they subsidize the retirees. A working family with children simply has no place to go in Chennai. Most young folk simply can not even move out of the family home. We restrict the FSI and all it does is that there are now 10 families living in one room each.

Despite our every effort city density in India has always been very high. This is our unique feature that allows Metro's to be successful in India compared to anywhere else. Keep in mind the plan is that by 2030 50%-60% of the population will be traveling in some form of metro. About 12 million trips. More than all the current trips put together. If you look at any Indian street it will be crammed with people, most strolling along. Truth is these people are commuters. They are the reason our street life is so rich. In massaland cities would kill for that kind of life on the street. When the life disappears crime and ghettos start showing up.

The only way to deal with the flexibility of private transport is to make their use difficult. In Europe, parking is impossible to find. People are afraid to drive cos they might lose their spot. Second petrol is expensive. Many areas are permanently designated pedestrian only. Without dealing with the TW's as well buses won't speed up as needed.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 14 Jun 2011 21:38

shaardula wrote:thanks nandakumar. very interesting stuff.

theo but that does not still answer the question. in general why are taxis and autos not that successful in either satisfying the operators or the customers. you have interesting insights in such matters.

start plying auto's on fixed short routes like it is there in kolkata. use of auto's as cheaper versions of 4wheeler taxis is the source of problem. you also achieve a very high coverage density this way. one can go to within a few hundred m's max of any point in the city via the fixed route auto's. and the journey is cheap and you don't have to depend on the autodriver's antics.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 14 Jun 2011 22:30

Meanwhile, AMMA having learned no lessons, What is wrong with our egotistical politicians. Rs 150 crore per km! Someone save us...

http://news.chennaionline.com/newsitem. ... RYNAME=CHN

Tamil Nadu Chief Minister J Jayalalithaa today urged the Centre to extend financial assistance for implementing the Mono Rail Project to improve the overall transportation system in Chennai city.

In a memorandum to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in New Delhi, copies of which were released to the media here, she sought the assistance under the National Urban Transport Policy which seeks to provide an efficient, affordable and sustainable transportation system to Urban India.

''In the first phase, 111 Kms will be covered. Overall 300 kms will be covered under Mono Rail in a phased manner'', she added. Observing Mono Rail was capital intensive but environment-friendly project of the State Government, she said the first phase of 111 Kms would be completed in the next two years at a rough cost of Rs 16,650 crore (at the rate of Rs 150 crore per Km).

She said increasing urban population coupled with economic activities and increased city size have led to a rapid growth in urban travel demand in Chennai. ''The Chennai Metropolitan Area (CMA) is expected to grow into a mega city with a population of more than 10 million people in the next 10 years'', she pointed out.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 14 Jun 2011 22:49

Theo_Fidel wrote:Meanwhile, AMMA having learned no lessons, What is wrong with our egotistical politicians. Rs 150 crore per km! Someone save us...

That is the approximate price for all metros.
For example hyderabad's cost is around 12000 crores for 70 odd kilometres.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 14 Jun 2011 22:56

^^^^
Read carefully. That is the cost for monorail.

nandakumar · Post by **nandakumar** » 15 Jun 2011 18:22

Hope the moderators wouldn't mind the discussion touching upon the larger issue of urban town planning and the role of FSI to increase density along chosen pockets of a city.
I think the town planner shouldn't prescribe a one-size fits all number as FSI. It should be left to market forces. If someone wants to put up a 50 story apartment complex, he may be permitted to do so provided he pays for the additional investment in laying water pipeline/sewer line etc. not just for his apartment complex but for the entire stretch till it joins the main pipeline.
The promoter would do the calculation and if the market for real estate in that area would support a price that makes all the costs worthwhile he would agree to the terms. In time, we would begin to see urban density improving along corridors where market forces see value. I suppose it is stating the obvious. But the fact is mass transit solution is easier when population is concentrated than when it is diffused.
It may be news to some of the members here that the Western and Central Railway suburban railway networks are extremely profitable among all Indian railways' passenger operations. Crush load passenger density is the key. of course I am not suggesting that we must plan for that degree of density even if commuters are put through huge suffering, but I suppose there is a golden mean somewhere in between.

nandakumar · Post by **nandakumar** » 15 Jun 2011 18:33

Aditya_V wrote:Yup, only problem with this mixed residential thingy I noticed is people in CHormpet paalavaram gets jobs in Thrivotyur- Ennore streach. Ennore, Madhavaram- Ambattur gets job in OMR- Neelankarai etc. Ultimately a large no of people in the city are travelling >20KM to thier work places.

True, people do commute long distances still and some fortunately along corridors where a decent mass transport solution exists. For instance in the Chrompet-Tiruvottriyur section it is possible to take a Beach- Sulurpeta local (frequency may be a problem) or even a beach-arakkonam local with inter change at the Royapuram station. Anyway, I was only making a broader point about shrinking commuter lead distances even if the phenomenon of long leads has not been completely eliminated long leads. Hope it clarifies.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 15 Jun 2011 21:33

nandakumar: There already is such a thread that I created a few years ago for the very purpose, but which doesn't have enough active participation. Please feel free to use it:
Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 16 Jun 2011 11:14

Suraj,

The last post in that thread is June 1 2007.

This is fascinating conversation so far. I hope it can continue here.
within limits of course.

-----------------------------------------------------

Once metro's come up it will be necessary to increase the FSI along their routes to help pay off the heavy investment.

My point is that in 2020 alone there will be 20 million individual journeys per day in Chennai. To get 60% to be by mass transit the only practical mode is metro rail. No one is able to show that any other method or combination of methods that can work at this scale. Mono-rail most definitely can not.

Already Jaya AMMA has gone crying to central govt. begging for 250,000 Crore, kid you not. Of which 15,000 crore is to be for monorail. I'm telling you this is all for show.She has no intention of building even a meter of monorail or metro rail more than existing. She did the same thing last time around. Argued endlessly and demanded central money for 4 years till she got booted out.

Profitability of Eastern Western commuter railway is uneven. There have been recent years of losses. You have to keep in mind that they havn't invested in modernizing the system. So they are running a fully amortized system and even then have trouble with profit.

nandakumar · Post by **nandakumar** » 16 Jun 2011 15:10

Suraj wrote:nandakumar: There already is such a thread that I created a few years ago for the very purpose, but which doesn't have enough active participation. Please feel free to use it:
Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Thanks Suraj. It is a shame, isn't it that there is not much of a traction for a dry as a bone theme like Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion? But then we shouldn't be greedy as to want a level of participation comparable to that of L&M Thread in the GDF, isn't it? Perhaps if there is a major news development involving urban development then perhaps forum members' attention would automatically be drawn to the issues of urban development, once again. For now, the present discussion with some latitude may be permitted to continue here, i hope.
I had mentioned in my earlier post, the phenomenon of zoning a city largely as a combination of residential and commercial (mixed residential' as the terminology goes) has resulted in public requirement of transportation atomised to a level that mass transit solutions seem incapable of handling.
I would like to supplement some behavioural aspects to the mix. People's first preference is for a seamless end to end solution that doesn't provide for walking a part of the distance as part of the transportation solution. I have noticed that walking has ceased to be part of the daily routine for most people and not just for the rich. It is a trend that began in the nineties More children sport knock knees now than in the past.
In the 60s, aspiring NCC junior wing cadets had to pass a simple test. The NCC instructor would make the cadet stand with the feet joined at the heels and the toes pointing outwards as in a 'V' shape. If the knees knock each other then the cadet is rejected. Most would clear that test. it is another matter that the school can take only 60 cadets but the number wanting to join would easily three times that- thanks to to the free Poori-Potato Sabji given at the end of the parade session. I wonder how many kids would pass that test now even among the middle class? As they grow into adulthood it is only natural that they should take their lack of a walking habit into their choice of transportation solution for commuting to work.
Nothing exemplifies this penchant than the record of poor patronage for the MRTS line in Chennai connecting Beach and Velachery. True, the traffic alignment is not the most perfect. But criticism in the newspapers about what was wrong with the project focused on an aspect which I thought brought out a behavioural aspect quite starkly. The poor patronage was attributed in news reports on the subject to the fact that the nearest bus connectivity was often quite some distance away. While that may be true, what it failed to explain was that another suburban railway network (connecting Tambaram in south west to Beach in the north) has so many stations with poor bus connectivity (200 to 500 mtrs. from the railway station, if not more) nevertheless enjoyed robust public patronage.
So the moral I draw from this is that people do not visualise 'last mile' (no pun intended) connectivity in a public ttransportion solution as one involving walking!

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 16 Jun 2011 16:32

nandakumar, this is as organic as any thread to discuss townplanning. as this discussion has shown, figuring out the what and the wheres of mass transit is intimately connected to town planning.

in the US, the hoighty toighty oppose mass transit corridors in their neighbourhoods because it brings in ''urban blight''. that is why highways run through poor/minority neighborhoods.

from what i know, market forces donot automatically lead to efficient systems. that is because 'market systems' have local objectives and limited horizons and hence are very local forces.

but cities requires certain levels of global forces to give them cohesiveness. global forces that balance multiple long horizon global objectives are required. such city infrastructure (both hardware and software like laws, people manning them etc.). if a city has certain minimum infrastructure levels then market systems can bring in capital. Directly bringing in market systems will lead to massively suboptimal cities.

i will give you an example, there is trend these days towards intelligent transportation. what this means is using cameras, gps etc to create information about road conditions and pass it on to drivers. then there are two options. a) drivers use that to make decisions and 2) a centralized system uses that information to make decisions.

option (a) works best only for over very small parts of the overall citywide road network. for anything larger than that, say a region of the town, (a) fails miserably and option (b) is always better.

if you are really interested there is a young prof at the madras madrassa who has done some work on this. i can hook you up. he is a good talk and is a good cook too.

ps: and quickly delete your blasphemy on sura-e-nukkad (please be on it) lest you be declared a walid cutlet.

nandakumar · Post by **nandakumar** » 16 Jun 2011 17:38

Shaardula I am with you on the point that market forces cannot work in public transportation solutions in the absence of an appropriate eco system that takes in infrstructure (hardware and software) and people etc. as you have pointed out. Indeed, I am for a strong public sector involvement for a number of reasons which would be another post altogether when I can come around to it. The Public-Private partnership models are a sham and a Trojan Horse for plain real estate speculation at public risk capital by private promoters. Hmm, that again is another story.
I was referring to market forces only in the limited context of the municipal authorities not setting any standard FSI. I argued for forcing the developer to bear the full cost incremental of civic infrastrcuture improvement that whatever built space proposed by him would entail. As a corollary, I had said that this would automatically lead to population density to develop along certain corridors of pricey real estate enclaves as elsewhere apartment owners cannot affford the higher outlay on infrastructure that they would be called upon to fund if they seek a higher FSI. Whether people living in rich pricey neighbourhood would permit or even need mass transport infrastructure in the first place is another story.
I heed your friendly advice. I hope the young and the young-at- heart mujahids frequenting the L&M Thread wouldn't see my remark as a jibe. May Allah grant them all the power and energy to indulge in their pursuits!

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 17 Jun 2011 05:15

Theo: The last post on that thread is in Feb 2011.

Folks, this is the mass rapid transit thread. Please use the urban development and public policy thread for issues specifically related to it, or xpost there.

Vasu · Post by **Vasu** » 21 Jun 2011 16:34

I had no idea such a massive expansion of the Kolkata Metro was announced! When did this happen??

Wheels of Kolkata Metro turn towards massive expansion

Traversing 25 km, connecting Kolkata's northern tip with the extreme south, it serves as a lifeline for around 550,000 commuters daily. Now, with four new projects totalling 85 km, the network is set to cover around 110 km.

"With the completion of three new lines and another announced recently, we will have an operational line of around 110 km," a Metro spokesperson told IANS.

"Two of the projects are likely to be completed within 14-16 months, while it will take 30 months to complete the first phase of the city's longest metro link," the spokesperson added, not wishing to be identified citing official rules.

With the introduction of a Rs.56-crore automatic fare collection (AFC) and new ticketing system, the Kolkata Metro is also going snazzy. Three air-conditioned rakes have been introduced, giving much-needed respite to commuters in the sultry weather.

"There will be interchanging facilities for the passengers from one Metro corridor to another and also from suburban train services of Eastern Railway and South Eastern Railway," the spokesperson said.

"Besides, we have plans to introduce the common ticket system for the commuters who need to avail themselves of different modes of rail transport to reach their destinations," the spokesperson added.

Work is now on along the 5.2 km Dum Dum-Dakshineswar route, which will be further extended 12.5 km to Barrackpore.

Another 18.5-km route from Noapara to Barasat via Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose International Airport has also been sanctioned and construction has started on this stretch.

Construction work has also begun along the 16.72 km-long-metro line from Joka in extreme South Kolkata to BBD Bagh in central Kolkata. The project was inaugurated by President Pratibha Patil.

Another extension project between New Garia and the airport (32 km) via EM Bypass and Salt Lake was inaugurated by then railway minister and now Chief Minister Mamata Banerjee Feb 7.

"A total of Rs.11,000 crore will be spent on the metro extension projects," the spokesperson said.

There used to be some forumers here many moons ago who were very good at drawing Metro alignment maps. Would love to see the Kolkata metro map with all these new routes.

Vasu · Post by **Vasu** » 21 Jun 2011 16:44

And news from the Jaipur Metro. This is from the Tabloid of India, so please pardon all the crassness around the news article.

Metro to use tunnel tech in Walled City

The Delhi Metro Rail Corporation (DMRC) will use "tunnelling method" technology for the construction of Jaipur Metro's Chandpole-Badi Chaupar rail track in the Walled City area.

Under phase-II of the project, an underground tunnel would be dug from Chandpole to Badi Chaupar through the congested areas of the old city.

As the Jaipur Metro's work steadily progresses towards the project's phase-II when the rail route will be laid from Chandpole to Badi Chaupar, the residents' concern for safety and heritage protection appeared growing.

However, the DMRC, the nodal agency for Jaipur Metro, assured that the technique to construct the underground tunnel will not disturb the Walled City's heritage. The date to start phase-II will be finalised once a company is selected to execute the project on a Public Private Partnership (PPP) mode.

Apprehensions in Jaipur thickened after a few fatal accidents at the Metro construction sites since February this year. Most of the line from Mansarovar to Chandpole will be over the ground.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 21 Jun 2011 19:24

Wiki has a map already. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kolkata_metro_map.png

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 Jun 2011 19:55

Vasu ji, quite a long time back. the EW corridor i.e line 2 work is going along steadily and work on line 3 joka(IIM is there) to bbd bag has just re-started after a few hitches.

the map in wiki is no longer accurate. line 3 (purple) will intersect further north at BBD bag from the west, around central. it will not run further north. the stations dakshineswar and other up north will be joined to line 1.
a parallel line to the existing NS line will run from new garia to airport along EM bypass. this is line 4.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 21 Jun 2011 20:20

Rahul_M, thanks for the correction.

Also Line 4 that you mention is missing from the map. But I did see it somewhere and cannot locate it now.

Is there going to be a Line5 in another ten years to replace some sections that will not be connected in the old purple line alignment. That area around jadavpur, Jodhpur park, deshapriya park is super congested too and the latest line4 goes further east along EM bypass.

Vasu · Post by **Vasu** » 22 Jun 2011 15:24

Yes Sirs!

Yes, the Wiki map is unfortunately outdated. I was aware of the Joka Management line but hadn't heard about it in a long time, so wasn't sure. Currently there's a tram line running from Joka to Behala which makes no sense at all other than the vintage and probably emotional value, so I'm assuming that tram line will go, and the tram station space at Joka will probably become the metro yard.

Line 4 was totally new news to me.

Bade, Jodhpur Park is abt 3 km of Tollygunge metro station, and has the local train line running next to it, so my uninformed thought would be that they would not be in favor of a new line there.

The Joka -BBD bagh line will be running more or less parallel to the current Dum-dum Garia line. Even if you look at the incorrect wiki map, the purple line will start at Joka (one station south of Thakurpukur), and from New Alipore, instead of cutting sharply right, will go parallel to the N-S line and end very close to the Esplanade station.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 22 Jun 2011 18:09

Currently there's a tram line running from Joka to Behala which makes no sense at all other than the vintage and probably emotional value, so I'm assuming that tram line will go,

whole line's been ripped off few days back. there is some talk of restarting it after metro is completed but I am not sure if that will happen. having trams for tourist spots is enough IMO.

Bade saar, deshopriyo park is less than a km from kalighat metro station. jadavpur and jodhpur park is not directly served by the NS metro or the new line 4 but it is kind of in the middle of both, 2-2.5 km either way. while availing the NS metro was hampered by the congestion of the connecting roads, the line through EM bypass is better connected to the area. check in google map

ideally line 4 would have passed through these areas but getting land would have been a HUGE bother. also the EM bypass line will be mostly overground so the costs would be lower as well.

there is talk of monorail networks as feeder for the metro network which would address the more congested areas where metro can't reach but there's no sign of it happening in the near future. there was a proposed LRTS project which was to have run along the same routes as metro lines 3 & 4. chances are it will run in the inner city now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolkata_LRTS
http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... le/424004/
__________________________
delay in EW corridor project.
http://content.magicbricks.com/ew-metro ... st-kolkata
EW metro route
http://www.kmrc.in/alignments.html
__________________________
some informative posts at skyscrapercity
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost. ... count=2823

some pics
EW metro
http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/1931 ... kdutta.jpg
http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/7394/image1124.jpg
http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/599/kolkatewmarc.jpg

soil testing for metro line in 1971.

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/5992/k ... onstru.jpg

finally a decent map of the proposed routes.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_lP2m ... enshot.png
NOTE : the map alignment is

Code: Select all

	W
S		N
	E

and a less confusing one
http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/5277 ... ro1big.jpg

a very informative document from KMDA.
http://www.kmdaonline.org/pdf/comprehen ... 122007.pdf

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 22 Jun 2011 19:41

http://content.magicbricks.com/joka-bbd ... nge-course
This one from one of the above links shows the alignment and the recent changes.

The earlier plan of taking metro overhead along Kidderpore Road has also been abandoned. “There were certain security issues running metro along Kidderpore Road, which is adjacent to Eastern Command headquarters, Fort William. So it was decided that the metro will run underground and from Hastings, it would diagonally cross Maidan to meet the north-south metro at Park Street station,” said a metro official.

The change of plan — turning the elevated track into underground metro — has led to massive cost escalation of around Rs 1,600 crore. Now this underground part (7.05 km) of the project needs the approval of the Planning Commission. If the entire alignment would have been elevated, the project would have cost Rs 2,619 crore.

Significantly, after the construction of the east-west metro, BBD Bag will be connected by both east-west and Joka metro. The metro connectivity, railways sources said, would substantially take pressure off road transport.

What can be the security issues there around Kidderpore, the circular railway is there already isn't it ?

Vasu · Post by **Vasu** » 23 Jun 2011 12:10

Rahul, wasn't aware of that! Haven't been down there for over a year now, so had no idea. Chalo, at least i've travelled on it while it lasted. Many thanks for all those links!

That highway is also scheduled to be 4/6 laned as it runs to Diamond Harbour and there were plans to turn the port into a bigger port. So apparently a lot of things planned for that stretch.

Right now the Howrah - Sector V (East West) line is the only one under construction (going on forever), and I believe its still going to run under the Hoogly, so that was a proud claim for the Kolkata Metro!

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 25 Jun 2011 20:55

I know we talked about this earlier but there is a special level of density Indian cities operate at. We should call it the 'Indian Urban Super Crush Density'. This particular bust terminus was planned for the next 50 years in 1990 or so. Back then it was way out in the outskirts of town. It is already completely overloaded.

Keep in mind that what you see in the picture below is one of 5 similar bays, 6 if you include the terminus for local buses. It is obviously not enough. Space for 300+ buses is filled just like that, and trust me the way they park there is often well over 300 there. The terminus now finds itself oddly bang in the middle of town next to the 100 feet road which used to be a ring/bypass road. 3 lakh passengers a day. Even a dedicated Metroline will have trouble with that level of passenger flow.

Yet what do we get, Monorail apparently.

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/channels ... -tizzy-344

The Chennai mofussil bus terminus (CMBT) in Koyambedu, inaugurated in 2002, might be the largest bus terminus in Asia, but it is bursting at the seams as it struggles to handle the heavy movement of buses daily.

On any given day, the terminus is chaotic and cramped with buses and passengers.

The terminus, thought to be an alternative to the erstwhile Broadway bus stand, is no more a luxury and a situation might arise when even this terminus would have to be shifted to some other place.

“Every day one can see buses queuing up at the entry and exit points of CMBT — waiting for the traffic signal. During the recent summer vacation and on festival days, the congestion at Koyambedu bus stand hits the traffic in the entire stretch of the inner ring road starting from Anna nagar to Ekkattuthangal,” laments the driver of a state-owned bus.

He worryingly adds that entering and exiting the terminus has become a tiring job due to the bad roads compounded by increased congestion and encroachments.

Mr R. Sanjai, who got held up in a bus at CMBT during the summer holidays, says, “It took almost half-an-hour to reach the exit point which was quite frustrating.”

The CMBT terminus, with an ISO 9001:2000 certificate for maintenance, is chaotic at the best of times. When it was inaugurated in 2002 it handled around 1,200 buses per day. But, nine years later, the number of buses has increased manifold and around 3 lakh passengers visit the terminus daily.

The stats are awe-inspiring: the terminus covers 36 acres and has 180 bus bays that can simultaneously station 270 buses.

But, all this is not enough to accommodate the 3,000 buses that touch the terminus daily.

“The terminus has outgrown the facilities. Better planning and proper administration are the need of the hour to deal with the increasing congestion at CMBT,” says civic activist K. Ramdoss.

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 28 Jun 2011 03:57

Bhailogs

Can anyone tell me when is the expected launch date for the Mumbai Metro I (Versova - Andheri - Ghatkopar) ?
A hindustan times article from last year was claiming that the services would be initiated from Jun 2011 onwards...

Haven't heard any updates since...any information on that would be appreciated