The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

[nikkap]

OK, I read that judgment, what it has to do with what you are saying and what indeed you are trying to say is totally unclear to me. I do understand sovereignity and common law...(does not mean God's law). In our system of governance, courts are not allowed to make their laws for that is the preserve of Parliament. But, I seriously fail to understand your point. Sorry.

Citizens =/ people, thats what I also mentioned. But my point was that once constitution is created, its for the citizens and people of India became its citizens. Specific provisions of citizen act came later. I dont think it complicates anything

Overall I dont disagree with you on the non caps ones. But for that, saying that its a corporation is a bit stretch (capped ones)

Seems what he is trying to convey is that we the people, as "citizens" of India, are actually "bonded" to the government, through legalese concoctions within/defining the preamble/constitution, and in reality do not have inalienable rights and democratic freedoms. Aka., we are in deep poop!

sumishi, symontk,ShauryaT

sumishi you are pretty close to what i am trying to say but i have to start from scartch lay the foundation so that i can explain everything in detail.

Let me explain this in simple words your driving license,registration of property,marrige & vehicle etc are all contracts these are called adhesion contract.Has anyone one of you ever read motor vehicle act before applying to license? when you apply for license they tell you that you MUST APPLY & SUMBIT your application .you know what these words means in legal terms ( the word MUST is a tricky word eg:- i in vite you to my party but if you want to attend my party you MUST come by back door. does it mean that you are bound to come to my party? no it's your freewill whether you want to come or not. my invitation is just an offer you can accept it or reject it but if you want to come you must come from back door.APPLY means beg legally means when you are begging you are not coerced/forced you know what you are begging for & you know grantor can reject or aceept plea & then you SUBMIT means you willfully give up all you rights) & on top of that when you REGISTER your vehicle with your state govt you give up all of your rights to automobile (to whom to state govt) number plate on front & back is evidence of that.it is no longer your property you are not the owner any more that is why they tell you that you cannot drive their car without seatbelt.if it is your car you can drive without seatbelt it is your freewill but no dear they can tow it,impound it do whatever they can coz it's their property.you can argue that your R.C is in your name but read clearly certificate of title is not the title means you have equitable title but govt has legal title.
As a rule of thumb whenever your name is spelled in ALL CAPITAL LETTERS you are under contract in which you willfully gave up all your rights.
TAXPAYER,HOMEOWNER,CITIZEN,DRIVER,CARDHOLDER your name will be spelled in ALL CAPS check out your bank statement,license etc.Time and again i am telling you guys it is not english that they are using it is legalese which is designed to enslave you.eg:- if a judge/documents states "Do you understand?" it is not english what's implied meaning do you stand-under my jurisdiction.they should teach us these things in schools/colleges but they don't why because their whole deception will fade away.

PLEASE READ THIS CAREFULLY

I reckon the matter of contracts and Contract Law is very significant to becoming “free” and sovereign. I believe it is the key to becoming free and sovereign.

There is, however, a significant difference between law and Law, which if you don’t know about already I hope to explain further. I’m mostly using the word ‘govt’ although you may prefer another term, such as Nanny State, the System, the Corporation, Banksters, Them… but one term you should not substitute it for is ‘society’ (as in us, everyone, all the people together) because the “govt” etc, is rather the thing that controls society (i.e. us) through the use of contracts, as I hope to explain. Society doesn’t require the govt contractor but the govt certainly requires society…


And, for anyone who thinks some of my suggestions are “wrong” or that I should feel “guilty”, keep this in mind: if I was a greedy contractor, such as the govt is, and if I offered my services to someone in a contract but they decided to use another contractor then I, too, might try and convince them that what they are doing is “wrong”, that they would get a better result if they contract with me, that the other contractor is a bad man, does bad work… been to jail a few times… Or, I might somehow try and make them feel “guilty” about using the other contractor… For some greedy contractors it’s all about getting the job whatever it takes!

So, wha‘d ya reckon? D’ya wanna come contracting?

So, what does it mean: the contract makes the law? What “law” does it make?

Well, the law that it makes, is the one you have to abide by. If you have a contract with a power company to pay 23/kw then by law you will have to pay 23/kw. And if I have a contract with the same power company for 13/kw, then by law that will be the amount I’m obliged to pay. You don‘t get to pay 13/kw just because that’s what my law says I must pay. If you try that, you’ll end up in Court on the losing side.

He who makes the terms of the contract is he who makes the laws. He who makes the law is sovereign. The contractor is sovereign.

So, that’s the power company contract and the law... Have you got any other contracts, are there any other laws that you’re obliged to obey, any other terms and conditions that might land you in Court if you don‘t abide by them? What’s that, you say? Only about 60,000+ [thanks, ditti] of the govt’s statutory laws, rules and regulations, you say?

Yeah, well, guess what? Those are the terms and conditions of the contract you have with the govt. If you have to obey a law it’s because you’re in a contract.

Are you in a contract with the govt?

The only way for a contract to become valid and binding (alive) is if someone accepts a benefit that has been offered with a condition.

For example, here’s what doesn’t make a contract binding or come alive.

You don't accept the benefits being offered - no contract exists.

You are coerced/forced into accepting the benefit (i.e. someone concretes over your driveway up to your garage [forcing you to drive over/use/benefit from, the new concrete to park your car] without you ever asking them and they now expect to be paid) - no contract exists.

One of the parties does not honour their part (or any of their part) of the contract - the contract is void, it dies.

Consider these scenarios... It’s a hot day, and I’m selling iceblocks for 10RSas my sign clearly states. Someone comes along who, for some reason, doesn’t notice the sign - although all my other customers did - and thinking my iceblocks are free, takes one and starts eating it… Does he get it for free because he didn’t notice the sign?

Or… What if the person was from foreign parts and mistakes my 10RSsymbols to mean “for free”? Does he get my iceblock for free after he started eating it because he was under the illusion it was free?

No, in both cases he has to pay me 10RSfor accepting and using the benefit I was offering even if he didn’t notice the sign (the terms) and even if he didn’t comprehend the terms. However, if I snuck over and popped one of my iceblocks into his mouth without him asking for one, I couldn’t then demand he pay me 10 RS even if he was blind and from Timbuktu!

Are you accepting govt benefits, and have you ever objected to using those benefits? Are you like the fellow who didn’t notice my 10RSsign? Or, are you like the fellow who didn’t comprehend what it meant? Either way, if you’re accepting the benefits you’ll have to meet the obligations.



Remember that most people are quite happy with the contract they have with the govt and are quite content to live under the terms and conditions of legislation, and there’s really only a few of us who believe we don’t need Nanny looking after us.

Before considering the benefit’s the govt is offering and the obligations it demands in exchange, consider the contract I have with my dog…

In exchange for me providing the dog with a warm, dry bed and food, the dog has to guard my place and must allow me access to, and control of almost every aspect of its life, and it must do what it’s told immediately or it’ll end up in the dogbox! The dog doesn’t seem to mind this contract and actually seems very content.

Would the dog be better off if he stopped accepting my benefits and was free and wild? He’s only a little dog and he might starve to death or die of the cold or get shot… I think he would be “wrong” to make that decision to not accept my benefits. And what if my place got robbed because he made a decision to be free and wild? “Dog, wouldn’t you feel “guilty” if that happened?” But then, I would say that, wouldn’t I, because I’m the contractor and I want the dog under my laws.

The question is: what sort of dog do you want to be? The one that gets fed and housed and looked after by Nanny but with many obligations attached that might land you in the dogbox if you don’t abide by them? Or, do you want to be wild and free, dog?

So, what benefits does the govt offer that you’ve unexpectedly been accepting and enjoying?

First, it offers you the opportunity to play in its great and magnificent Game of Commerce. You get to play with its money which you can use to buy and sell its trinkets and tokens and baubles. If the Game of Commerce is a Monopoly board, then the govt is the owner of it and can fold it all up and go home with the lot - money, trinkets, tokens, baubles - if it wanted.

Wanna play?

If you do decide to play in the govt’s Game of Commerce you have to use the govt’s PAN number so you can give it to your boss in the govt's Commercial workplace. This so the govt knows how much benefit you’re getting from its Game for taxation purposes.

In the workplace environment, the govt offers further benefits in the form of statutory protection from unscrupulous contractors (your boss!) who might make you toil in a dangerous environment for brutally long hours and for a pittance. The govt offers a safe working environment, 40 hour weeks, sick leave, paid holidays, maternity leave, the pension, insurance… They’re all benefits of a contract and they’re all there in the terms and conditions, in statutory law, along with all the obligations of the contract.

If you’re accepting and enjoying any of those benefits means you’re in a contract with the govt, means you're enjoying the govt’s commercial benefits. And if you’re accepting commercial benefits all the time then you’re in commerce all the time in which case you’ll require a “drivers” licence to get around on the roads… all the time. That’s one of the obligations of the contract.

Pretty mean, eh, some of those obligations? Taxes and taking away your right to travel freely… Hang on! That’s a God-given right! Can the govt do that? Can the govt, or anyone, take away one of your God-given rights with a contract?

Yep, it sure can! And so can I… if you’d like to contract with me.

Consider an employment contract you might have with me in which you agree not to reveal certain business information in exchange for getting a wage off me. If you agree to the contract and start collecting a wage you can’t then claim your God-given right to free speech to publicly reveal my business information. If you did reveal my information within the terms of the contract I’d take you to Court and get back all the wages I’d given to you from within the contract, and all your bleating from the Tort about your “right to free speech“ would fall on the Judges deaf ears. Yes, you do have that right, but you don’t have it in the contract - and that’s where the Judge will be ruling the case - in Contract Law. And in Contract Law only the terms and conditions of the contract can apply… that’s why I can only claim back the wages I gave you from within the contract rather than try to claim everything you own and ask the Judge to send you to jail.

[Sanku]

More persecution, gleefully reported by a ever fawning and helpful media (this is ndtv)

http://www.ndtv.com/article/cities/how- ... bed-115302

Burkha Dutts Channel trying to win more padmshri's

[sumishi]

More persecution, gleefully reported by a ever fawning and helpful media (this is ndtv)

http://www.ndtv.com/article/cities/how- ... bed-115302

Burkha Dutts Channel trying to win more padmshri's

And some good anti INC comments too. Here's one :

RajeshTheFIRE
• Hello Enforcement Directorate (ED), you have started very good job after 63 years of independence. If you have time, also check why Sonia and family visit to SWISS and what happened to Bofors and so many other scams money done during Congress rule. FYI-Britishers were able to rule on India because of GADDARS. In modern India time-Some Govt. Agencies are doing that role. • Question is not why Ramdev is being probed. Point is why this probing can't be done according to the priority based on time and magnitude involved. Why can't this ED probe Black Money and Corruption Issues effectively, in spite of Supreme Court asking and Indians are demanding? Answer is simple, Corrupt Congress wants to suppress such voices raising against them. CBI and ED like agencies are playing on Sonia's fingers rather than doing un-biased probe themselves. Of course, let Ramdev be checked but will ED probe Corrupt Congress Nexus after it? Do this ED has will power or soul to do such Patriotic tasks. I have big doubt about it?

[anmol]

This is a good move by Yadyurappa to counter the nonsensical and non-stop accusations from Kumarasamy and INC. The opposition in K'taka is making new accusations everyday stalling the govt functions

Not sure that tha accusations are all "nonsensical"...The BJP itself has been constrained to declare that Yeddy's actions were "only imoral, not illegal"(!), whatever that means...

It means what the words clearly imply, that his actions weren't illegal as law were passed to give such a right to CMs and he exercised those rights, but certainly exercising that constitutional right was immoral. This is not different from perks one get because of one's Caste or Religion in this country.

[nikkap]

I do understand sovereignity and common law...(does not mean God's law). In our system of governance, courts are not allowed to make their laws for that is the preserve of Parliament. But, I seriously fail to understand your point. Sorry.

Custom and usage since time immemorial" is generally what is behind the definition of common law. There is no singular source of the common law as one would expect with statutes made by a legislature.

Having said that, consider also that law follows physical power.

Let's pretend that you reset your brain almost to zero--you have no knowledge but your natural knowledge of good and evil, your natural intelligence, and a language with which to communicate with others. You are in your sovereign capacity, accountable to no higher authority, but acknowledging the sovereignty of others and that you may not diminish the sovereignty of others. You are at peace.

Along comes another being like you who causes you pain for which you want fair compensation.

At this point you have a choice: you can do immediate battle, or you can round up other like beings (we suggest 12 of them, a jury) and ask them to join you in battle. If you can get all of them to agree that you have a just cause, then it would be you and them against the accused (you+them=13 against 1).

They, not having been present at the time of the crime, being fair minded, demand that you justify your request (provide the rule and prove your facts).

You make your presentation, and the accused makes his counter-presentation. After the presentations (the trial) the jury retires to cogitate over two questions.

The first question: Is the rule valid? If, in the opinion of the jury your rule is not valid (jury nullification), then they will refuse to join you (a not-guilty verdict). But, if they, in their independent sovereign judgment agree with your rule, then they move on to the second question.

The second question: Did the actions of the accused violate the rule. If, in the opinion of the jury he did not, then they will refuse to join you (a not-guilty verdict). But, if they, in their independent sovereign judgment agree that your rule was violated, then they will join you (a guilty verdict).

If the jury's decision is split, the issue remains unresolved, and a new trial may be needed with a new jury.

If the jury's decision is unanimous, whether "guilty" or "not guilty", the question is decided, and you now have 13 vs. 1. Depending on the verdict, the "1" would be either the accuser or the accused.

Whoever lost the case would be foolish to do physical battle against 13 opponents. Thus, through this process, we bring peace to the realm.

An accuser always has jurisdiction to accuse. The accused always has jurisdiction to defend. And, either one may grant jurisdiction to a jury to intervene.

That is the bare essence of the common law.

Anything more than that is an attempt to "improve" the process. However, so-called "improvements" often are imperfect.

Although there is no singular authoritative source of common law, much has been written over the past thousand years. Many have come to respect the thoughts and opinions of those who preceded them. Having respect does not mean to quit thinking. Education is the process of learning about prior conclusions. Those conclusions are a valuable guide to use to arrive at our own conclusions.

In true common law, there are no obligatory rules or precedents. A common law court (a court of record) has unlimited jurisdiction and is independent of government. All external factors are, at best, advisory, not obligatory.

court of record under commonlaw once you establish this in our indian courts then you cannot imagine the power vested in you.you can vacate any order of the judge & hold him/her in contempt if he/she tries to make judgement.i know this is difficult to even imagine but bare with me i will explain everything.

This writer concludes, from the definitions below, that a
court of record is a court which must meet the following
criteria:

1. generally has a seal
2. power to fine or imprison for contempt
3. keeps a record of the proceedings
4. proceeding according to the common law (not statutes or codes)
5. the tribunal is independent of the magistrate (judge)

Note that a judge is a magistrate and is not the tribunal.
The tribunal is either the sovereign himself, or a fully
empowered jury (not paid by the government)

Black's Law Dictionary, 4th Ed., 425, 426 COURT. ... INTERNATIONAL LAW The person and suite of the sovereign; the place where the sovereign sojourns with his regal retinue, wherever that may be. .... CLASSIFICATION Courts may be classified and divided according to several methods, the following being the more usual: COURTS OF RECORD and COURTS NOT OF RECORD. The former being those whose acts and judicial proceedings are enrolled, or recorded, for a perpetual memory and testimony, and which have power to fine or imprison for contempt. Error lies to their judgments, and they generally possess a seal. Courts not of record are those of inferior dignity, which have no power to fine or imprison, and in which the proceedings are not enrolled or recorded.

[symontk]

So nikkap, why are you saying all these? Did you land in any trouble with government? Are you against any form of government?

These things should be clear to anyone. In the example you quoted above about car, I will add one more thing. If the Dist. Collector of your dist decides that all cars in the dist is required for national duty, he/she can do with that a simple signature of his/hers. You need drop your car (whether its a BMW or Maruthi) near the next police station

[anmol]

The nauseating campaign against Baba Ramdev
2011-06-28 05:30:00
The recent controversy over Baba Ramdev and the conduct of the Indian media on the issue has been confounding and rather nauseating.

The people of this country were very much aware about his following and the support system (agriculture and commercial) he has created to sustain his yogic and ayurvedic missions.

The Baba has neither claimed to possess divine powers nor do people treat him as a divine being.

His personal lifestyle has not betrayed any hint of indulgence or opulence.

The moot questions therefore were whether or not there is transparency about the organisational assets of the Baba and the purpose it is used for.

Baba Ramdev’s yoga sessions were purely voluntary and there was no coercion or even persuasion to buy his ayurvedic formulations.

The media not only began to question the assets of the Baba, but also ascribed political ambitions to him.

Ironically, some of these foremost media organizations are controlled and funded by Church organizations. The details are easily accessible on the internet.

We Indians have been hardly mindful of people taking the criminal, financial and dynastic route to political power. But we have generally disfavoured a purely religious route to politics.

Therefore, if Baba Ramdev was to use his yogic and curative abilities for gaining political power, the people of this country, I am sure, would have dumped him.

There can be little doubt that Ramdev simplified Yoga and took it to the masses, to the extent that some countries began to declare yoga as repugnant and blasphemous to their dominant religious beliefs.

Ramdev’s yoga and his yogic message endeared him to the people.

This author has met scores of people, both educated and un-educated, who had benefited immensely from his prescribed yogic exercises.

No Indian ever tried to create the halo of ‘godliness’ around the Baba. The discerning and educated people ignored those claims of his that they thought were inadequate and unempirical and focused on his strengths, which he has in plenty.

Baba Ramdev exuded a deep patriotic fervour and pride in India’s past, its ancient wisdom to include yoga, ayurvedic therapy and way of life. His sense of nationalism can be debated, but not denied.

He has spoken of unity and stressed on transcending caste and communal divide.

Significantly, Ramdev, born in a Yadav family, has also proved that caste in India is superficial and that Indians do not distinguish based on merits of birth when it comes to accepting someone as Guru.

He has validated the ancient Indian saying “Jat na poochiye sadhu ki, pooch lijye gyan” (Never ask the caste of a sadhu, concern yourself with his wisdom).

What is more important the message or the messenger?

If the messenger is more important, then every parent or teacher forfeits the right to enjoin upon children or students the need to outperform them, or fall prey to habits, which they would regret and find difficult to kick.

If the message was correct, then why has the media gone to abysmal levels in vilifying the Baba in what is clearly a motivated campaign.

There have been bizarre comments from some politicians that the Baba should continue with his primary profession of being a ‘yoga guru’ and keep away from politics and matters of national interests.

If this comment is applied to the political class, then many of them should have continued being barristers at the time of independence and post independence being lawyers, doctors, gangsters, criminals, police inspectors, waiters and waitresses. Unlike politicians in power, at least the people of this country have a choice with regard to their Babas.

There is much ado about the scientific basis of various forms of medicine prescribed by Ramdev.

It may be remembered in this context that of the around thousand primary allopathic drugs, only around 40-50 are based on empirical studies. The rest have evolved on the basis of trials.

Some of the biggest names in various disciplines of medicine in India, I know have been seeking treatment from Baba Ramdev for ailments that they have spent a lifetime studying. If nothing else, the Babas and the spiritual gurus are the Indian version of psychotherapists.

Baba Ramdev’s campaign against corruption, particularly Indian money stashed in Swiss bank, has been on for three years.

He did not pull the agenda from out of thin air. He only stepped in to ride the rising anger over unprecedented and unbridled corruption that is consuming the country.

The haggling and deals for portfolios by politicians and coalition partners was not lost on the people. The intransigence of the DMK over certain portfolios during the formation of the current government was a clear indication that the party was going to go for the kill right from the outset.

The 2G scam therefore did not come as surprise. What angered people was the dithering and denials.

People do have the simple intelligence to figure out that when a politician roots for a particular portfolio, it is not merely for power but money as well.

Neither are the people blind to the role of money in electoral manipulations and the high life of politicians and their cronies including those who have ceased to be legislators.

People are also not unaware about the politician-bureaucrat nexus.

Today most bureaucrats and judges do not retire. There is hardly any retired DGP of police who does not have half a dozen serving policemen as domestic help.

Public sector enterprises have become the personal fiefdom of politicians and bureaucrats. Indians having money in Swiss bank is not a new phenomenon but what has outraged people is its magnitude and government indifference.

The common man has to contend with the state apparatus every day. Their frustration has acquired explosive levels because the very institutions they relied to reform the system themselves became corrupt or abettors of corruption.

They began to view national security threats and terrorism from the prism of corruption. They began to construe cases of corruption as acts of anti-nationals.

It is in this environment that Ramdev emerged.

Corruption affects one and all. Its greatest and ultimate victim is government.

Corruption alienates, derides and brutalises the very people politicians claim to represent.

The symbiosis between corruption, crime, communalism and terrorism is becoming increasingly intricate.

The government and all other political parties should have been therefore part of the anti-corruption campaign. The people of India were yearning for that kind of response.

Instead, the government adopted an adversarial attitude. For some reasons it looked vulnerable, uncomfortable and defensive right from the outset.

It then resorted to dirty tricks. It tried to neutralise Ramdev’s campaign by foisting Anna Hazare on unsuspecting Indian people.

The sudden emergence of Anna Hazare and his team of so-called ‘Civil Society’ representatives till today remains a mystery.

Anna Hazare’s fast was preceded by a very well orchestrated campaign to rally public support. This author was flooded with e-mails.

Many people who came in support of Anna’s campaign at the Jantar Mantar were members of NGOs and organizations. Even school children in uniform could be seen. The spontaneity factor in the support level was low.

No sooner was there a crackdown on Ramdev’s campaign than the e-mail campaign in favour of Anna again gained momentum.

One such e-mail was received by this author some 15 days ago, wherein a retired Army Officer, father of a Kargil martyr, after his meeting with Anna Hazare almost deified him.

The conduct of this officer on many occasions in the past has not done honour to his great son. To this particular e-mail I replied:

“Sorry to say I have no respect for either of them. At the behest of the government, Anna trivialized the very serious and pervasive issue of corruption to Lokpal. All this criticism from some Congress leaders is drama, just to show that they are not selective in opposition to Ramdev. Future Prognosis — draft of Lokpal bill will be made public — some provisions will remain excluded out of design — Anna will then go on fast — the government will act tough — then meet his demands — a little girl will offer a glass of juice — Anna will drink the whole glass — draft then will be presented in parliament — if it is not passed, opposition will be blamed — in any case Congress and Sonia wins — Anna will portrayed as Gandhi and Sonia as Bharat Mata. Anna will get lot of space on English media. The issue of black money in Swiss Banks will be killed. The new Gandhi Anna will start giving opinion on everything i.e. whenever Congress party twists his arm. It is another matter Anna has no clue about Lokpal. He has left that to crooks, Maoists and publicity hungry self-appointed representatives of the Civil Society. One Maoist has been asked to maintain visibility to fill the saffron component in Anna’s favour.”

It is intriguing that such mails on the web started flying thick and fast just when Anna is going to undertake another publicity stunt. This was clearly absent before or during Ramdev campaign.

While the government staged a fixed match with Anna, it adopted a two pronged attack to deal with Ramdev.

As per my sources, there was one government team, which implored him to call off his agitation. The request was tempered with veiled threat to him and his organisation.

There was another senior minister, who used the filthiest of vernacular abuses and warned him of dire physical consequences. They finally asked him to choose between immediate arrest or give an undertaking stipulating the time period of his sit-in at Ramleela. Thinking discretion was the better part of valour, Ramdev agreed.

As the deadline approached, the frequency and vulgarity of threats from the Government increased.

Ramdev calculated that come morning, it would not be possible for the government to use force to disperse the very large gathering expected to have congregated by then. The very next morning, he was to press the government to release the names of the list of Indians having money in Swiss Banks, reportedly sent by Germany.

Then there was the crackdown and vilification campaign against Ramdev by third-rate politicians and a section of the subverted media.

We have come to a stage where being nationalist or patriotic has become disqualification or blasphemy.

God save India and Indian Democracy.

RSN Singh is a former military intelligence officer who later served in the Research and Analysis Wing, or R&AW. The author of two books: Asian Strategic and Military Perspective and Military Factor in Pakistan, he is also Associate Editor, Indian Defence Review.

[hulaku]

His personal lifestyle has not betrayed any hint of indulgence or opulence.

From the above post.

Couldnt help it.

A couple of months back saw Baba along with some women followers buying Lingerie at Debenhams at the Ambience Mall in Gurgaon. Saw it with my own two eyes.

Just another Baba I had thought

[shaardula]

regarding yeddiyurappa. that was a selfish move and unnecessary dragged dharmasthala's name into his battles with kumaraswamy.

in KA, every community has its own matha. but dharmasthala is named so for a reason. it is widely regarded all across the state and is revered by people of all communities in the state. the temple hosts manjunatheshwara, priests are madhvas, and the temple itself is headed(dharmadhikari) by a jain family. the temple sits on the edge of mountains and is mainly run by people of the coast. but it has wide followers amongst those who live on the plateau (in the rest of the state).

more importantly, dharmasthala runs a whole family of progressive and positive social initiatives locally and across the state, things like RUDSETI and mass marriages, initiatives in sustainability, environment, local knowledge etc., beyond the usual things (annadaana, colleges etc) done by temples and mathas in KA. its message is progressive and positive, even when its core deeply is rooted in tradition.

in short it is more than a big temple. and supports a holistic fulfillment of peoples lives not just their faiths. it is not centered around any personalities either.

it is a good positive place a force for social development and betterment, and important to the people of the state. it is not a place to settle the personal squabbles of politicians.

[SRoy]

His personal lifestyle has not betrayed any hint of indulgence or opulence.

From the above post.

Couldnt help it.

A couple of months back saw Baba along with some women followers buying Lingerie at Debenhams at the Ambience Mall in Gurgaon. Saw it with my own two eyes.

Just another Baba I had thought

So women followers buying lingerie for themselves is opulence?
You mean all those facility management staff barely eking out a living are now living in luxury since they are inside the mall almost 16 hrs a day?
Or is it that the Baba and his followers stepped into the Amby Mall (that itself is land grabbed by real estate goons) which causes your angst? Surely a mall is out of bound for the masses!

[ShauryaT]

So nikkap, why are you saying all these? Did you land in any trouble with government? Are you against any form of government?

These things should be clear to anyone. In the example you quoted above about car, I will add one more thing. If the Dist. Collector of your dist decides that all cars in the dist is required for national duty, he/she can do with that a simple signature of his/hers. You need drop your car (whether its a BMW or Maruthi) near the next police station

Same here, I still do not get his point though on what he is actually saying. If his primary premise is that the people are sovereign and not any representative (government) and that the people have a right to agree/disagree to a "contract" then I have no fundamental disagreement.

However, by way of a democratic constitution and polity, the people have agreed to constitute for themselves a republic. Moreover, the right to change the nature of this democratic republic is always there. Not only that, the means through which this right is to be exercised is there too. The case for a violent overthrow collapses due to these broad rights with the people to change as they see fit.

Now, one may argue based on the fact that the original representation of the constituent assembly was not through democratic means and hence the enforcement of this constitution on the people is illegal is another argument that goes to the heart of the debate on a unitary versus federal structure. The Indian constitution wants to be federal but retains all unitary powers. A unitary structure, as inherited through the colonial construct of 1935 does not require such an endorsement of its states. This is the reason, why the central government retains all rights to redraw state borders and split states, which are there only for administrative purposes - in the eyes of the current constitution.

The argument to change this unitary construct to a federal structure is legitimate. The argument to somehow deny that this constitution and its laws does not apply to the "people" and/or "society" is like closing our eyes and saying, I was born today and hence start from scratch. This is not practical. The concept of sovereignty in the modern sense of the term is tied to a certain land area, on which an authority has exclusive domain rights. What the poster is saying is possible only through a violent revolution - to what end, I do not know but I will not support it and is highly UNLIKELY in India.

The word Dharma is rooted in the word "stability" or to hold firm. A violent revolution is its anti thesis, unless it is against Dharma. The Indian civilization is a mature and humane civilization that one can find on earth. Violent revolutions are for people, who do not know, who they are and what they are here for and what is their destiny. India works as a democracy because of its Hindu ethos. Take these ethos out and then all bets are off. A solution to our structural issues, have to comply to this ethos anything else and the Indian people will reject it.

[RamaY]

Ramay ji, i am interested in how this 'Truth test' works. How is it supposed to be convincing and stop the sort of accusations being made? I always assumed it was common even in courts for people making statements or witnesses to swear on some Holy Book that what they say is true.

But accountability was always to the court and prosecution on perjury above any swearing in taken into account. But here you are recommending a way above any court function. How does it work? Could we have it introduced in the Lok Pal for instance. Why all the fuss then? Lets get Kalmadi and Raja do the Truth Test, right? Why has Gadkari himself rejected that?

harbansji,

This 'truth test' will do the following IMO.

- It will establish in public-mind that Yeddi is god-fearing (whichever god he believes in) and doesn't mind standing in front of god and tell the truth (if he lies in front of god the belief is that he and his entire lineage will pay the price).
- It will also establish (assuming that kumarasamy too takes the test) that both the parties are serious about their claims and people have to wait till courts make a decision based on investigation and evidence. People then will not have to be emotional about it in the upcoming elections
- If kumarasamy doesn't take the test, then it will permanently destroy his credibility and hopefully reflect in next elections.

Yeddi is not sidelining the process or overstepping the constitution as some think. The law will take its course and Yeddi (or any other person) cannot do anything about it. The Lokpal or K'taka Governor (former central law minister) or CBI or central govt couldnt do anything to Yeddi as of today. What Yeddi fighting with this truth-test is the public opinion and the charade of kumarasamy's accusations.

Rajas, Kalmadis, and even SG too can take the test if they wish and believe that it makes a difference in their political constituency. But that wouldn't make them immune from the law and justice of land. Same goes with Yeddi.

If people cannot see the difference, only god can save them. Only a stupid mind would understand and believe that Yeddi will be let go by the courts and systems of the land once he takes this truth-test.

[Sanku]

The nauseating campaign against Baba Ramdev
2011-06-28 05:30:00


RSN Singh is a former military intelligence officer who later served in the Research and Analysis Wing, or R&AW. The author of two books: Asian Strategic and Military Perspective and Military Factor in Pakistan, he is also Associate Editor, Indian Defence Review.

Interesting, another fool I guess.

[Hari Seldon]

Nicely articulated, RamaY garu. However, those who don't want to see will find a way to not see only. As usual.

[harbans]

Rajas, Kalmadis, and even SG too can take the test if they wish and believe that it makes a difference in their political constituency. But that wouldn't make them immune from the law and justice of land. Same goes with Yeddi.

Thanks Ramay Ji, i think this has been blown over by the media and on this board too. I think what you said above suffices well. The word that got most here worked up was 'Obscurantism' wrt Yeddi, from Wiki:

The obscurantist can be personally a scientist,a philosopher, a truly faithful person, a naturalist, or just agnostic, but, as one member of the society, believes that religion among the populace serves the aim of social control. To that effect, the obscurant limits the publication, extension, and dissemination of knowledge, of evidence countering the common-belief status quo with which the nation are ruled

Fact is simply put, just as in court swearing to tell the truth by putting hands on the Bible, HK or BG does not mean it is the truth, similarly a truth test taken in front of a Deity does not imply Truth is being served. If it were being made out as such it would fit in the Enlightenment philosophers description of 'obscurantism'.

[harbans]

The issue is not just corruption, but a problem in governance as a whole and hence the need for revolution. There are multiple systemic problems of governance and corruption is just one of them. If you want to wait a lifetime then sure argue for piecemeal policy changes. If you want to fix governance in 10 years time, then argue for a revolution. I favor the latter.

Dhiman Ji, i am in complete agreement with the bolded portion of what you have written above. Our differences in approach are in defining the latter i feel.

I don't want it fixed in a life time or 10 years, i want it done by the weekend. Most of the reforms suggested for various ministries are already on the table. It would take a few hours in Parliament to push them through maximum. I agree most of our politico's are old and have risen on the basis of status quo'ist positions. That rankles a lot of people as they feel changes don't come fast enough. That is completely true and even i am intrigued by the lack of pace of pushing policy reforms in.

However i notice you want a change in Governance..and i assumed you imply 'revolution' in those terms. I too would like a change in Governance, but i am saying that happens through Reforms/ Policy changes. I assumed good governance == good policy reforms being pushed in. How is your position then different from mine, unless you define 'revolution' very different from what i imply here.

[joshvajohn]

Govt is 'silent' on root cause of corruption: Ashok Leyland
http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busine ... 60600.html

In the corridors of power in New Delhi, India's top civil servants are feeling besieged. Everywhere they look, officers of the Indian Administrative Service (IAS) see corruption scandals erupting and the Central Bureau of Investigation ( CBI) lurking.

http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... -secretary

[ShauryaT]

The issue is not just corruption, but a problem in governance as a whole and hence the need for revolution. There are multiple systemic problems of governance and corruption is just one of them. If you want to wait a lifetime then sure argue for piecemeal policy changes. If you want to fix governance in 10 years time, then argue for a revolution. I favor the latter.

Dhiman Ji, i am in complete agreement with the bolded portion of what you have written above. Our differences in approach are in defining the latter i feel.

I don't want it fixed in a life time or 10 years, i want it done by the weekend. Most of the reforms suggested for various ministries are already on the table. It would take a few hours in Parliament to push them through maximum. I agree most of our politico's are old and have risen on the basis of status quo'ist positions. That rankles a lot of people as they feel changes don't come fast enough. That is completely true and even i am intrigued by the lack of pace of pushing policy reforms in.

However i notice you want a change in Governance..and i assumed you imply 'revolution' in those terms. I too would like a change in Governance, but i am saying that happens through Reforms/ Policy changes. I assumed good governance == good policy reforms being pushed in. How is your position then different from mine, unless you define 'revolution' very different from what i imply here.

A revolution could mean a drastic change, which I believe is what all of us want and could mean a violent overthrow and everything in between. If we discard the other extreme then most of us will quickly agree. Damn the English language

[hulaku]

So women followers buying lingerie for themselves is opulence?
You mean all those facility management staff barely eking out a living are now living in luxury since they are inside the mall almost 16 hrs a day?
Or is it that the Baba and his followers stepped into the Amby Mall (that itself is land grabbed by real estate goons) which causes your angst? Surely a mall is out of bound for the masses!

You are trying to tell me that the masses buy lingerie from Debenhams ? Do you have any idea of the prices over there ?

And why does the great Baba himself have to be with them and suggest what they buy ?

And then I assume for you flying in chartered planes and staying at the Claridges is also some thing the masses can afford right ?

He has just conveniently latched on to Anna's campaign as a springboard to launch his own political career. And I find it absolutely disgusting when people compare him to a real hero like Anna sahib.

Just my 2p

[Virupaksha]

He has just conveniently latched on to Anna's campaign as a springboard to launch his own political career. And I find it absolutely disgusting when people compare him to a real hero like Anna sahib.

Just my 2p

see Baba's speeches and meetings last year to see who latched onto whom.

Vishwabandhu gupta's/Ramdev's speeches can be found from last year all in RD's meetings. There are recordings of the meetings around feb & march first week from one such large meeting.

Until Anna Hazare suddenly announced in April 1st week that he was going on fast and the media latched on to it, no one even knew that he was fighting for corruption (on India scale).

[anmol]

He has just conveniently latched on to Anna's campaign as a springboard to launch his own political career. And I find it absolutely disgusting when people compare him to a real hero like Anna sahib.

Just my 2p

see Baba's speeches and meetings last year to see who latched onto whom.

Vishwabandhu gupta's speeches can be found from last year all in RD's meetings.

Baba for the last three years has been giving yoga lessons along with education on Corruption in the country, every day starting from 4 am in the morning. He has travelled ONE LAKH kms and met almost crore people before coming to Ram Lila Maidan.

Anna cropped up few months back in one of RAMDEV's really..

And you think Ramdev used Anna's campaign as springboard ? Can Anna gather more than few hundred people on his own ?

[anmol]

So women followers buying lingerie for themselves is opulence?
You mean all those facility management staff barely eking out a living are now living in luxury since they are inside the mall almost 16 hrs a day?
Or is it that the Baba and his followers stepped into the Amby Mall (that itself is land grabbed by real estate goons) which causes your angst? Surely a mall is out of bound for the masses!

You are trying to tell me that the masses buy lingerie from Debenhams ? Do you have any idea of the prices over there ?

And why does the great Baba himself have to be with them and suggest what they buy ?

And then I assume for you flying in chartered planes and staying at the Claridges is also some thing the masses can afford right ?

He has just conveniently latched on to Anna's campaign as a springboard to launch his own political career. And I find it absolutely disgusting when people compare him to a real hero like Anna sahib.

Just my 2p

Are you talking about Ramdev or some other Baba ?

[Bruce]

Mayawati asks PM to roll back fuel price hike
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 027973.cms

In her letter, Maya has drawn attention of the prime minister towards the excuse taken by the union petroleum minister for increasing prices. She said that minister has claimed that the public sector oil companies will suffer Rs 1.7 lakh crore in 2011-12 and to compensate the loss, Rs 21,000 crore is being realised through increase in fuel prices and Rs 49,000 crore by reducing taxes. Maya has written that entire government can generate Rs 21,000 crore by further reducing the taxation on oil and there will be no need of increasing the fuel prices.

She has also written in her letter that while increasing fuel prices, union petroleum minister claimed that crude oil prices in international market has increased by 113 US dollars. However, she said, the fact is that crude oil prices have shown a decline in international market in recent months and a day before the decision taken by the empowered group of ministers to increase fuel prices, the international crude oil prices had come down by 5%. In such a situation, she has said, the increase in fuel prices do not appear to be appropriate.

Further, Mayawati has written that from 2005-06 to 2010-11, the Central government has given Rs 21 lakh crore of tax concessions to corporate world. In 2010-11, she said, concession of Rs 4.61 lakh crore has been given. This amount, she added, could have been used to meet the oil deficit and there was no need to put burden of fuel price hike on the common man. She has also said that in 2011-12 budget, Rs 1.44 lakh crore money has been shown as non-receipt. Even a part of the said amount, if realised by the Central government, could have been used to meet losses to the public sector oil companies.

[Bruce]

In UPA II of scams, 'silent' PM to concentrate more on PR
http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news ... PR/809916/

New Delhi With only two press conferences with editors in the last several years, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has earned the dubious sobriquet of being the 'silent PM' in these politically noisy days.

Keeping that in mind, and with the clamour growing for direct bytes from the top man himself, there is likely to be a complete makeover of Singh's media strategy -- with results showing as early as tomorrow.

He is expected to speak on major issues to a group of senior editors on Wednesday.

“I am hoping this will become the preferred format for regular interactions between editors and the Prime Minister," Media Advisor to the Prime Minister Harish Khare said.

Singh's interaction tomorrow morning will be the second with senior editors. The Prime Minister had met editors of TV channels in February this year and his last interaction with newspaper editors was in September last.

The transcript of the interaction will be available on the Prime Minister's official website.

With his government facing several burning questions on corruption, the Prime Minister's office now feels the need to project Singh on the forefront, to field questions from the media more often, so that the nation gets a sense of how he is going about tackling these issues.

Apart from the constant carping by the Opposition, who have often demanded explanations from the Prime Minister, civil society activists too have recently become vociferous on his decision to largely remain incommunicado.

The controversy over the Lokpal Bill, which pushed temperatures higher this summer, has left many wondering what the Prime Minister himself thinks about the proposed ombudsman who will check corruption.

Activists led by Anna Hazare have repeatedly said they don't understand the Prime Minister's silence on the Lokpal matter.

Opposition parties feel Singh needs to explain the 'governance deficit' they say has crippled the UPA coalition, reports said.

In an exclusive interview to NDTV earlier this week, Home Minister P Chidambaram had accepted, “Yes, I acknowledge that lots of people would like the Prime Minister to step up to the plate, so as to say, and speak more often. But that is the style of the person.”

[SRoy]

You are trying to tell me that the masses buy lingerie from Debenhams ? Do you have any idea of the prices over there ?

So masses cannot buy from Debenhams? Does the Constitution of India say so ? Idea about price...what makes you think I have no idea?

And why does the great Baba himself have to be with them and suggest what they buy ?

So you were with the Baba and you heard him selecting the colour and cut of garments in question?

And then I assume for you flying in chartered planes and staying at the Claridges is also some thing the masses can afford right ?

Strawman argument. Buying garments from a international store is not same thing as flying around in jets or dining in 5 star. In fact I should ask do you even know the price of the above three and how do they compare? Your madrassa had 5th grade arithmetic or it didn't?

He has just conveniently latched on to Anna's campaign as a springboard to launch his own political career. And I find it absolutely disgusting when people compare him to a real hero like Anna sahib.

Other way round. FYI, BR started his movement long ago. WTF is a Sahib BTW, since when AH became a Sahib?

[Sanku]

Just my 2p

More like two phooti kaudi.

I know people closely associated with him and who I will vouch for, who are with nearly 24x7.

Kindly cease and desist on mindless slander.

[Manishw]

His personal lifestyle has not betrayed any hint of indulgence or opulence.

From the above post.

Couldnt help it.

A couple of months back saw Baba along with some women followers buying Lingerie at Debenhams at the Ambience Mall in Gurgaon. Saw it with my own two eyes.

Just another Baba I had thought

Anything else apart from your eyes which do not seem to be working properly with the Mainovadi specs and all.

[Manishw]

So women followers buying lingerie for themselves is opulence?
You mean all those facility management staff barely eking out a living are now living in luxury since they are inside the mall almost 16 hrs a day?
Or is it that the Baba and his followers stepped into the Amby Mall (that itself is land grabbed by real estate goons) which causes your angst? Surely a mall is out of bound for the masses!

You are trying to tell me that the masses buy lingerie from Debenhams ? Do you have any idea of the prices over there ?

And why does the great Baba himself have to be with them and suggest what they buy ?

And then I assume for you flying in chartered planes and staying at the Claridges is also some thing the masses can afford right ?

He has just conveniently latched on to Anna's campaign as a springboard to launch his own political career. And I find it absolutely disgusting when people compare him to a real hero like Anna sahib.

Just my 2p

Aha the Mainovadi agenda to bash hindus is apparent now- carry on

[Manishw]

Recent lecture by Swamy in Chandigarh:

[Manishw]

Priyanka Gandhi's husband in pact with DLF for realty foray

http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busine ... 29321.html

[nikkap]

So nikkap, why are you saying all these? Did you land in any trouble with government? Are you against any form of government?

These things should be clear to anyone. In the example you quoted above about car, I will add one more thing. If the Dist. Collector of your dist decides that all cars in the dist is required for national duty, he/she can do with that a simple signature of his/hers. You need drop your car (whether its a BMW or Maruthi) near the next police station

NO dear I am not in any kind of trouble & I am not against republic form of govt but I am against democratic form of govt.our forefathers gave us a beautiful system in which minority rights are not suppressed. They want to save us from tyranny & oppression of majority. Minority have rights but in case of democracy 51% trumps 49% period it doesn’t matter how poorly intended that statue/regulation that is passed can harm the citizens it doesn’t matter there are no minority rights except civil rights.EG:- Republic is one dedicated to "liberty and justice for all." Minority individual rights are the priority. The people have natural rights instead of civil rights. The people are protected by the Bill of Rights from the majority. One vote in a jury can stop all of the majority from depriving any one of the people of his rights; this would not be so if india were a democracy.

[nikkap]

What the poster is saying is possible only through a violent revolution - to what end, I do not know but I will not support it and is highly UNLIKELY in India.

The word Dharma is rooted in the word "stability" or to hold firm. A violent revolution is its anti thesis, unless it is against Dharma. The Indian civilization is a mature and humane civilization that one can find on earth. Violent revolutions are for people, who do not know, who they are and what they are here for and what is their destiny. India works as a democracy because of its Hindu ethos. Take these ethos out and then all bets are off. A solution to our structural issues, have to comply to this ethos anything else and the Indian people will reject it.

before i respond to that you have to clarify that where in all my posts i suggest that we do violent revolution.

[harbans]

A revolution could mean a drastic change, which I believe is what all of us want and could mean a violent overthrow and everything in between. If we discard the other extreme then most of us will quickly agree. Damn the English language

I'm not so sure Shaurya Ji, there are people who don't know exactly what means to get what they are clamoring for. Removing Gaddaffi or Mubarak may be a very big effort in the ME. Removing Sonia and party may not be so here. Every elections we have what they call a 'revolution' in the ME. Indeed the word 'revolution' is quite subjective, but many here, and of course including members of the Civil society too are not looking at pressurizing the set up to do the needful. All this extra big brother lookout organizations may achieve is stalling at the status quo.

Decision making may come to a virtual halt for fear. Worse is people with fascist leanings becoming power centers by the next elections. B Raman sort of hints at the unpredictable outcome if this is not handled well. I see everyone accepting that corruption should end and good governance should be there. I think no one in their right mind denies that. But i see lots of divide in how it is to be accomplished and what is to be accomplished.

[ShauryaT]

So nikkap, why are you saying all these? Did you land in any trouble with government? Are you against any form of government?

These things should be clear to anyone. In the example you quoted above about car, I will add one more thing. If the Dist. Collector of your dist decides that all cars in the dist is required for national duty, he/she can do with that a simple signature of his/hers. You need drop your car (whether its a BMW or Maruthi) near the next police station

NO dear I am not in any kind of trouble & I am not against republic form of govt but I am against democratic form of govt.our forefathers gave us a beautiful system in which minority rights are not suppressed. They want to save us from tyranny & oppression of majority. Minority have rights but in case of democracy 51% trumps 49% period it doesn’t matter how poorly intended that statue/regulation that is passed can harm the citizens it doesn’t matter there are no minority rights except civil rights.EG:- Republic is one dedicated to "liberty and justice for all." Minority individual rights are the priority. The people have natural rights instead of civil rights. The people are protected by the Bill of Rights from the majority. One vote in a jury can stop all of the majority from depriving any one of the people of his rights; this would not be so if india were a democracy.

That is why it is a a democratic republic - from day 1. The SC has been zealous about protecting fundamental rights and actively denies Parliament this prerogative, such as done during Emergency. Lately, it has even denied Parliament the scheme to put it into a section (i forget the number) which is exempt from judicial review, due to over use/abuse of this provision. We have many, many examples on this. What is the issue?

[ShauryaT]

What the poster is saying is possible only through a violent revolution - to what end, I do not know but I will not support it and is highly UNLIKELY in India.

The word Dharma is rooted in the word "stability" or to hold firm. A violent revolution is its anti thesis, unless it is against Dharma. The Indian civilization is a mature and humane civilization that one can find on earth. Violent revolutions are for people, who do not know, who they are and what they are here for and what is their destiny. India works as a democracy because of its Hindu ethos. Take these ethos out and then all bets are off. A solution to our structural issues, have to comply to this ethos anything else and the Indian people will reject it.

before i respond to that you have to clarify that where in all my posts i suggest that we do violent revolution.

I am not saying you did, but it was my interpretation of the implications of what I could determine, you were implying. Quite frankly, I still am not getting your point. Maybe, I am too dense. So I will stop responding to your posts on these lines for now.

[sanjeevpunj]

This thread is accursed by Kal Sarpa Yoga .The twists and turns supposedly leading to the truth are so baffling, with all the personal attacks, presumptions,clarifications, the focus is totally gone.

[IndraD]

this thread is slowly getting hijacked by congressy ideology 'play in mud' , 'hit & run, it seems dig vijay singh is here.

[hulaku]

Just ruffled a lot of feathers here it seems.

And a lot of people here to be really sensitive about a crorepati Baba. Been called a Madrassa student, a mainovadi, an anti-Hindu in the matter of two posts. Keep going on.

[anmol]

Through the third eye
28 JUN, 2011, 06.21AM IST,ET BUREAU

Intriguing Interest

Government officials are abuzz with seemingly strange requests for information on the activities of Sonia Gandhi's son-in-law Robert Vadra by an advisor to a powerful cabinet minister. It seems the advisor has sought information on several occasions as well as given oral instructions that if anything crops up in the course of any probe linked to Vadra then the advisor should be informed right away. The reasons given to officials for such an avid interest in Vadra's activities is that the advisor can do some damage control in case of any link-ups that could embarrass the Gandhi family. However, no one seems to be buying that line given the frequency of such requests for information. Bureaucrats also wonder why the information is being sought since it seems highly unlikely that authorisation for it came from the Congress high command.

[Sanku]

Just ruffled a lot of feathers here it seems.

And a lot of people here to be really sensitive about a crorepati Baba. Been called a Madrassa student, a mainovadi, an anti-Hindu in the matter of two posts. Keep going on.

You dont normally troll, at least so brazenly.