India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

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Indranil
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Indranil »

MarcH wrote:Well, for one you don't deal with 4 countries, you deal with Eurofighter GmbH.

Next thing is (here I'm repeating myself) how a company with one production line (producing 11 airframes a year) can quickly wind up production, train up Indian workers and supervise
the setup of HAL's production line.

Then we have Eurofighter, a multinational programme with 4 production lines producing around 50 airframes a year. Quite a bit simpler for them to wind up production or derive 18 airframes for India and train up HAL employess at the same time.

Nethertheless, from everything I have seen so far Rafale is between 5-10% cheaper to buy and to run compared to EF. If it is strictly about L1, Rafale should win.
Marc, this production rate argument is not the best IMHO. I am pretty sure you know the reason behind the 11 plane per year is economics and not capability. In fact wherever you see, you will notice the rate is only limited by economics. It is either a matter of maximizing profits (for EF) or sustenance(for Rafale).

Production rates are very rarely derived from capability ... duplication of capability is the smallest of headaches for any company if it makes economic sense ... why do you think the rate of production of EFs is 50 per year?

I leave you with one more example ... look at the LCA Tejas production rates ... The Chairman of HAL is on record that they can produce Tejas at 20 aircrafts per year (nearly twice than the planned rate of production) provided that there were adequate orders from the IAF.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by SaiK »

so, why there no higher production rate for Rafale? :twisted:
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Indranil »

SaiK wrote:so, why there no higher production rate for Rafale? :twisted:
Because France can at most pay for Rafales arriving at that rate.
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... 032009.xml
Rafale Production Drop Confirmed
Mar 20, 2009
<SNIP>
But Chairman and CEO Charles Edelstenne said March 19 that the current rate of Rafale production, 1.2 aircraft per month, is headed for a sharp drop. The rate will decline from 14 this year to 11 annually starting in 2010 and will remain at this level -- the minimum considered viable (to keep the assembly line running, same as the situation for Tejas MK I ) -- even if one of several export deals in negotiation now leads to a breakthrough on the international market. Export sales, Edelstenne said, will simply allow French forces to stretch out their own deliveries further.

Despite the production rollback, the French government still intends to keep ordering new Rafales, at least for now. Last year, it converted eight options that had been created to help fund improvements to the aircraft to make it more attractive for export customers to firm up buys. The government has confirmed that it will purchase another batch of 60 aircraft this year.
<SNIP>
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by NRao »

US, China and India seem to be the only players that have a need and the funds. There are some who have a need and no funds, other funds but no need and yet others no funds, no need.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by SaiK »

Still.. that does not answer why Rafale sales are poor outside Fr. /pl note my evil icon.

It is interesting to point that India's needs may be perhaps more realistic than china and the khans, where the politics are entirely different, where as ours is a case where the needs are purely requirements in terms what we need in the a/c and ToT, especially when we consider these aspects

1. logistics risks - sanctions, and other international choke pressure, hence local production
2. maintenance - serviceability - local
3. availability - spares, etc
4. upgrades - easily done without any major changes [open standards]
5. deployments - example: the forces can't wait till some 2020 take an a/c for immediate A-G role.

I guess in all of the above, the most priority is the #1 local production units., where EADS has installed production facilities spanning multiple countries, and this is what I am trying to highlight.

I know, Fr is much capable, and perhaps would do equal or even better than EADS in terms of production engineering and setup, but just taking stats here alone.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Indranil »

^^^ Well, I don't know why they are not selling ... it is difficult to sell such expensive planes in first place ... Outside the 4 nations of Eurofighter GmbH, EF has only been sold to Austria (not surprisingly) and Saudi Arabia (a rich country), in spite of being one of the best planes around! Su-27/3x on the other hand has found many more buyers.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by arthuro »

There are some confusions here. It must be reminded that the 11 rafale production rate is due to french budget constraints...Not industrial ones. The production rate can be double our treble as said by dassault. That leaves a lot of flexibility to increase the production and even more considering the export deliveries have the priority over french ones.

As for exports it must be reminded that the rafale toped the technical evaluation almost all the time (Korea, Singapore, Dutch (N°2 after the F35), Brazil and now shortlisted in India) but lost to political reasons. Besides many exports campaign are simple state to state deals like the rafale in UAE or the Typhoon in austria and Saudi Arabia or the SH in Australia etc...
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by nitinr »

MarcH wrote:Well, for one you don't deal with 4 countries, you deal with Eurofighter GmbH.
I beg to differ on that. It is like boeing / LM saying they can provide the latest provided necessary approvals from the US gov.
Its more of the state technology controls rather than what a company can do, otherwise all european companies will be selling to china.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by nitinr »

Manish_Sharma wrote: No SaiK, the german govt. refused to sell guns sighting gujarat and kashmir in indian army, but for Typhoon they are in full force to sell.
Sorry. It was never a denial for army. It was denial to sell guns directly to certain states. Then it was planned to import guns through NSG and re distribute to these states.

Just posting the link because this argument had been stated on every page of this thread.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=14431
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by NRao »

Still.. that does not answer why Rafale sales are poor outside Fr
My statement was a generic one.

But to answer your specific question: competing vendor governments had more clout + some clients do make decisions based on strategic needs - some have to.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Philip »

AWST May 16th issue has a report on the OZ dilemma about replacements for their legacy F-18s.OZ experiencing a somewhat similar problem that the IAF has had with depleting numbers. Oz has placed orders for the JSF in 2002 expecting the JSF to arrive in 2011.AS AWST says, "2011 is here",but that worthy bird,still in "deep development", will only see IOC in 2018 according to latest official US statements.The OZ air froce feels that the aircraft will not be in service before 2020 and are faced with a hard choice to make up numbers which will deplete,of older F-18s,with additional F-18 SHs.This however is what the OZ air force does NOT want! SO why is the US so p*ssed off with India for rejecting F-18SHs ,when its own pet "kangaroo" does not want ithe same 30+ yr. old lady with excessive make-up?

Two OZ think tanks reportedly have come up with solutions.Further upgrades of already upgraded F-18s,more SHs,or evn a lease of SHs,until the JSF arrives. The OZ disease is similarly being felt by other US allies,who only plump for US aircraft and are contemplating mostly US options,like F-15SEs,the JSF,perhaps the EF,like SOKO and Japan.In that respect India has proved to be far wiser spreading the risk and while placing its cutting-edge bets on Russia with Flankers and the FGFA,is making up numbers through upgrades,the desi LCA and Europe for the MMRCA.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Avid »

^^ The reason Australia does not want SH is not because it is old.

SH is their Bofors, the first round deal got so much bad press and for so long, no politician in Australia would like to go that route again even if SH has been stellar for their airforce and wanted.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Avid »

Also Eurofighter is a single product company as far as a fighter aircraft is concerned. There are no other products (except perhaps evolution of the same) planned or expected even on few decade horizon.

The firm was created to support a single program. Now what happens when that program winds down and nothing is on the horizon? Also, for all the people who believe we will get the expertise - I would like to remind them of the Intel and long lost company called Digital/DEC. Intel acquired the publicly traded company hoping to acquire the expertise. Digital/DEC transferred all the assets to Intel, and left with the manpower (the true expertise).

Dassault on the other hand is a deeply entrenched firm with continued long-term viability in range of product markets, and deeper expertise in product development, management. For HAL to learn, it would be better to learn from Dassault which is similarly diversified on civilian/military sides than Eurofighter.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Lalmohan »

eurofighter is a marketing company. the real work is done by the consortium members - BAe, DASA/EADS, CASA, Alenia and all the various pyramid of suppliers. therefore, once the typhoon is done, the "eurofighter" company will be wound up and the tiny number of people who work directly for it will go do something else
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by rajanb »

Avid, no offense meant, but a correction.
I would like to remind them of the Intel and long lost company called Digital/DEC. Intel acquired the publicly traded company hoping to acquire the expertise. Digital/DEC transferred all the assets to Intel, and left with the manpower (the true expertise).
Compaq, which was bought over later by HP, took over Digital/DEC. In India, everything was merged with Compaq, except the SW export house which retained its Digital name and manpower, but under the control of Compaq and the public equity holding .

In a lot of company selloffs/mergeres/takeovers or even winding down, unless management walks on egg shells, a lot of the really skilled manpower leaves.

I agree with you if that is what you are conveying, being involved in two massive mergers of multi-billion $ companies, spanning the globe.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Aditya_V »

rajanb wrote:Avid, no offense meant, but a correction.
I would like to remind them of the Intel and long lost company called Digital/DEC. Intel acquired the publicly traded company hoping to acquire the expertise. Digital/DEC transferred all the assets to Intel, and left with the manpower (the true expertise).
Compaq, which was bought over later by HP, took over Digital/DEC. In India, everything was merged with Compaq, except the SW export house which retained its Digital name and manpower, but under the control of Compaq and the public equity holding .

In a lot of company selloffs/mergeres/takeovers or even winding down, unless management walks on egg shells, a lot of the really skilled manpower leaves.

I agree with you if that is what you are conveying, being involved in two massive mergers of multi-billion $ companies, spanning the globe.
You should know- OT but do you work for a Big 4 M&A by any chance.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by rajanb »

Aditya:
You should know- OT but do you work for a Big 4 M&A by any chance.
I don't work for one of the 4. But everytime I joined a good MNC, the value of the company went up and someone bought it. :((
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by JTull »

Today, there are no Big 4 in M&A. Rankings change a lot depending upon the sector and the geography.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Avid »

rajanb wrote:Avid, no offense meant, but a correction.
I would like to remind them of the Intel and long lost company called Digital/DEC. Intel acquired the publicly traded company hoping to acquire the expertise. Digital/DEC transferred all the assets to Intel, and left with the manpower (the true expertise).
Compaq, which was bought over later by HP, took over Digital/DEC. In India, everything was merged with Compaq, except the SW export house which retained its Digital name and manpower, but under the control of Compaq and the public equity holding .

In a lot of company selloffs/mergeres/takeovers or even winding down, unless management walks on egg shells, a lot of the really skilled manpower leaves.

I agree with you if that is what you are conveying, being involved in two massive mergers of multi-billion $ companies, spanning the globe.
Thanks for the correction. Compaq did buy DEC, and some parts were sold to Intel. I remember huge controversy and lawsuits that followed because the R&D staff of DEC (which was what Intel was after) did not move with the sale. This was at a time when Intel was still trying to crack 500MHz processor without melting, and DEC was running 64-bit 600 MHz processors.

I will try to find you more details.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by rajanb »

Yes Avid, you are correct.

That was US specific. DEC had a killer chip though "proprietary" which powered a lot of their gear. I do remember that INTEL took it as COMPAQ was keen to only do the manufacturing, sales, marketing and support.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by shukla »

THE INDIAN FIGHTER COMPETITION AND THE FUTURE OF EUROFIGHTER
Second Line of Defense
SLD: In analyzing the Indian decision with regard to which fighter aircraft to downselect, we have written that the Indians are focusing on selecting an aircraft, which forms the basis for a 30-year franchise.  From this point of view, they are interested not just in buying a platform, but an engagement in the evolution of that aircraft.  Is this your view as well?

Wells: Absolutely.

SLD: Could you describe the current approach to upgrading the aircraft?

Wells: With the four partner nations – UK, Germany, Italy, and Spain – it’s all managed on the customer side through a management agency called NETMA, or the NATO Eurofighter and Tornado Management Agency. And they act on behalf of the Four Nations to harmonize their four sets of operational requirements.  We then act on behalf of the four partner companies on the industry side: BAE Systems in the UK, Alenia in Italy and Cassidian in Germany and Spain, to get a harmonized view from industry side.It’s really a four-into-one approach on each side of the fence – the industry side and the customer side. The agencies on both sides are responsible for the upgrade path.

SLD: NETMA provides a forum then within which harmonization of the requirements is sorted out so that the contributions of upgrades generated by any of the member nations can shape an upgrade path?

Wells: That’s right.  We get the customer agency’s future requirements and then we act on behalf of the partners on the industry side through the various contracts.  The content of those requirements can come from one, two, three or four nations, depending on the funding routes, who’s in custody of the upgrade and what and when they require it, we will then propose packages of upgrades that will accommodate all of those requirements as far into the future as is required. We don’t develop single products individually across the four nations, but shape a common approach.  And now we’ve got five and six nations with Austria and Saudi Arabia. The approach is to try to have a common approach for Eurofighter upgrades regardless of customer. We focus on generating high-tech solutions, help to develop new technologies across the Eurofighter partners and suppliers and develop an important economic impact to the partner nations.

SLD: India would then come in as a new partner, with a new assembly line, and their requirements would shape new funding and new opportunities for upgrading the aircraft, and adding new industrial possibilities?

Wells: Exactly.  If they’ve got money on the table to say we need this capability and this number of aircraft in this time frame, then those requirements would be dealt with, together with those of the existing partner nations.

SLD: Could you describe the immediate impact from Indian participation as a Eurofighter nation on the upgrade approach?

Wells: The immediate impact is that we will have a large set of operational requirements that we would need to fulfill in a pretty short time span. Currently, the only official future upgrade that is currently being funded is Meteor. There are indications that there will be additional new weapons, but funding is a problem. The list of requirements on the Indian RFP is considerable.  And they would need to be worked through to this upgrade program.  I think it’s fair to say that the proposal that we’ve made into India in terms of providing a Typhoon with the required capabilities is arguably 80 percent Indian requirements, 20 percent European requirements.  So they would influence considerably the future direction of the Eurofighter program.

SLD: So it is in Eurofighter’s interest to bring Indian industry up to speed on the program as rapidly as possible so that they can participate effectively in the overall upgrade process moving forward with the evolution of the aircraft?

Wells: We would see it from both sides, both from the customer side with extended operations on the ground and also from the industry side with fulfilling our obligations in a timely manner. Part of the technology transfer options that we’ve made into India are just that to bring the Indian industry up to speed, if you like, with the European industry as far as developing the aircraft is concerned.

SLD: If Eurofighter succeeds in the downselect, and India becomes a full participant, India could drive the evolution of the Eurofighter for Europe itself.  It becomes a two way street for the future of the aircraft.

Wells: I agree. If you look at Eurofighter as having a potential life of 40-50 years, it is still in development and only in service from end 2003.The overall ergonomics of the flight control system, the hydraulics, the electrics, all of the general systems are now mature, and relatively fixed.  Meeting the requirement of building an aircraft with an unstable aerodynamic configuration has been a challenging learning curve for us. But that is the sort of technology transfer we could hand over to the Indians so that they can learn how to, if they wish, develop a son of Typhoon or a future combat aircraft with unstable ergonomic capabilities.

They can as well help in the ongoing enhancements where the aircraft is undergoing continuous evolution. This includes areas such as sensors, range extension, new weapons, etc. Those are the kinds of enhancements that we’re now building into Eurofighter where it will physically look the same and it will physically fly the same.  But it will always have new technology as far as detection, tracking and exploitation of weapons is concerned. And again, that’s something that the Indian industry could get into relatively quickly.  So, we would see them as key participants in the process of enhancing the sensors, the weapons and so on over the short to medium term.

And then in the longer term, they could start to evaluate what it is that we need to do to build the next batch of fighters – perhaps enhancing the agility whilst maintaining carefree handling, etc. We can be doing real term development over the next decade or so. But we can also learn from what we’ve already done and learned the hard way in the past. And a combination of the two should give them a pretty good platform to develop their own aircraft from whenever they’re looking for over the next 20 to 30 years onwards.

Whether it is manned or unmanned, that’s another discussion, I guess.  But, the way we see it is we’ve spent a considerable sum baselining the aircraft to give it maximum potential for the future.  Now it’s a case of enhancing it with new sensor technology and new weapons technology – new roles in some cases, whether strike or reconnaissance. Again, it’s usually through sensor enhancement via RF or optic upgrades where the pilot’s receiving more information, better information, to enhance his decision-making ability. We’ve got a mature baseline system.  We’re willing to hand over the lessons learned from that development program,.  But we’re also continuing to develop the aircraft today for another 20 or more years. For the Indian industry to come in at this stage is good for India and good for the future evolution of Eurofighter. We have resolved the initial challenges experienced in the development and operation of the aircraft.  It’s now a combat proven aircraft.  But it’s still got a lot of growth left in it.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Lalmohan »

^^^ Typhoon MKI by the sound of things...
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by arthuro »

"Wells: Exactly. If they’ve got money on the table to say we need this capability and this number of aircraft in this time frame, then those requirements would be dealt with, together with those of the existing partner nations."
Anyone who comes with money and a development requirement will get what it wants. That's absolutely not specific to the Typhoon program.
"Wells: The immediate impact is that we will have a large set of operational requirements that we would need to fulfill in a pretty short time span. Currently, the only official future upgrade that is currently being funded is Meteor. There are indications that there will be additional new weapons, but funding is a problem."
It looks than behind the marketed partnership it is a way to pass the upgrade bill to the indians....
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Lalmohan »

^^^ oh yes, the bill will be passed tot eh IAF, just like Sukhoi did
and no doubt just as Dassault will
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Singha »

but the dassault bill will have lesser line items.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Viv S »

arthuro wrote:Anyone who comes with money and a development requirement will get what it wants. That's absolutely not specific to the Typhoon program.
The money is shared across multiple participants. That's the reason why the Rafale program has cost France 50% more than the EF cost UK.
"Wells: The immediate impact is that we will have a large set of operational requirements that we would need to fulfill in a pretty short time span. Currently, the only official future upgrade that is currently being funded is Meteor. There are indications that there will be additional new weapons, but funding is a problem."
It looks than behind the marketed partnership it is a way to pass the upgrade bill to the indians....
There are only two essential upgrades that really need funding - AESA and CFTs. The consortium members are now committed to reimbursing the industry for the AESA's development since the signing of the LoI, a week back. The RAF and Luftwaffe Tranche 3 Eurofighters are being built to carry CFTs - so its inevitable CFT development will be sanctioned.

Regarding the overall issue of cost - its not that the EF members are unwilling to spend on upgrades. The RAF has in the past been the most proactive air force in Europe with regard to upgrades (maybe even more so than the USAF). RAF Jaguars went through multiple upgrades including a re-engining while the AdlA soldiered on with older variants. The Harrier F2 & the GR7/9 had both been through fresh upgrades before they were prematurely retired. The same goes for the Tornado ADVs.

The problem is the economy - budgets are being cut across the board and things aren't expected to look up for the next three to four years. France hasn't been immune to that either - the AdlA can afford to add only 11 aircraft annually. Unfortunately, the EF contracts were drawn up in manner than precluded the option of putting off deliveries. But once the pressure of paying for new deliveries eases by 2015 - upgrades are very much on the cards. The Luftwaffe and EdA aren't a part of the F-35 program. Once the Tornados start retiring in 2013 (IIRC) the EF will remain the only asset in strike roles. The same applies to the RAF - the Tornados start retiring in 2015 while the F-35 deliveries won't happen till 2020. That's a large stock of Storm Shadows and Brimstones that's going to be mothballed. Commitment to the EF program isn't optional its a necessity for both the UK and Germany.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Lalmohan »

^^^ and the only way to sustain their aerospace engineering industries
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by SaiK »

There is no big future for both Rf and Ef without MRCA order. The loser would immediately start sales pitch to china and pakistan with 50% discount. :twisted:
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by rajanb »

SaiK wrote:There is no big future for both Rf and Ef without MRCA order. The loser would immediately start sales pitch to china and pakistan with 50% discount. :twisted:
The question then is: If Rafale wins the MMRCA, would they still sell to China? They have made the right noises about not selling "critical" items to the Pakis.

If the answer to this question is no, then I feel fairly confident that Unkil will not allow EF to be sold to either of these two?
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by SaiK »

Sorry for that evil post.. even if Rafale sells to china and pakistan (quite plausible in the game of things based on history data) , I doubt there would be something that we need to worry about, especially the niche technology aspect where we are seeking few components to be on the upper side.

Now, the what iffs.. china and pakistan gets AESA and BVR weapons from every place on the planet, and there must be something unique and niche that IAF has to over power.. this would be the net-centric interface, GAGAN++ and other sat system interfaces, AWACs integration, and local tweaking of software for mission roles that is exactly what IAF wants [like in LCA].

As of now, we are in the right direction of the game.. just being careful and aware is always good.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by rajanb »

Agree Saik.

And so far the Military leadership has shown tremendous skill in tactics during '65 and '71.

In '65, they used Vampires from JTW Hakimpet as bait, on the Western sector. And when the Vamps turned and ran, with Pakis gleefully chasing them and licking their chops, the Gnats descended and changed their wet dreams into a nightmare.

The point is what we integrate into these a/c (like MKI), the men behind them, the tactics and strategy are equally important.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Lalmohan »

why is unkil so good at winning big showpiece wars when most of the hardware is on a par with what others make or slightly better?

1. C^4ISTAR is awesome
2. Logistics and supply chain is phenomenal

with these two things, unkil has usually won before he has entered the field
which is why only asymmetric warfare has any chance of surviving unkil's wrath
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by SaiK »

sure.. we are in no comparison to unkill in terms of logistics. But, on a scale we are in with our enemies, we should be more than unkill's plan because our belligerent enemies are unlike what unkill himself has faced so far. For example a war against chippanda even by unkill forces, would bring down the super power status after the war, by logistics alone. The number theory wins at some point.

So, 126+75odd later more advanced versions can help,but still way behind on chippanda numbers we are talking. Unless, there is a huge order on LCA Mk2 and 3 versions coming to about at least 500 of them in 10-15 years in time.

I am envisioning a swarm of J17s and J20s, along with chippanda Sukhois in formation. I can't think off anything else other than spraying steel pellets from space.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by NRao »

All that is getting old. "Uncle" has moved on. As an example Uncle is ready to place laser on platforms to even deal with things like mortar and art shells. He has already dealt with swarm of fast boats. Not to mention locating IDEs.
ramana
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by ramana »

Lalmohan wrote:why is unkil so good at winning big showpiece wars when most of the hardware is on a par with what others make or slightly better?

1. C^4ISTAR is awesome
2. Logistics and supply chain is phenomenal

with these two things, unkil has usually won before he has entered the field
which is why only asymmetric warfare has any chance of surviving unkil's wrath

And very firmly believe in killing the target dead with one shot. So much so they emphasise on ordnance delivered at the target. While Europe limits to 450 kg (1000 lbs) the US standard dumb bomb is 1000 Kg (2000 lbs). This comes form the years of study of the WWII bombing campaign and so on.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by NRao »

^^^

While that is very true is the generic or standard ops way, the US has reacted to the asymmetric nature of the current war. They have a 13 lb, micro-UAV portable bomb too. Point being the US has reacted very well to the ground realities.

Also, there is an entire area that is not in the public prevue that supports the open-source effort.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by SaiK »

Nope... unkill has failed on many aspects.. His anti IeD is all based on low tech now-a-days, and the billions have been wasted.. all c/o thank you sniffing dog!.

That laser weapon is not matured yet. unkill has to get low tech on few things too. /OT
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by nachiket »

Lalmohan wrote:why is unkil so good at winning big showpiece wars when most of the hardware is on a par with what others make or slightly better?
Yes, but they have many times more of the hardware than anyone else.
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Lalmohan »

they do, but they way they deploy C4I is really very deep and sophisticated
many other militaries just don't get this
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Re: India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Par

Post by Surya »

He has already dealt with swarm of fast boats. Not to mention locating IDEs.

Has had minimal success with IEDs -
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