The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 29 Jun 2011 22:33

Quoting excerpts from the livemint link above:

In the anti-corruption debate that saturates the media today, everyone has their favourite fix. The Jan Lokpal supporters believe that the answer lies in creating a strong Lokpal with wide powers to detect, investigate, prosecute and punish the corrupt.

Then we have the lamenters, who burrow into history to extract stories of perfidy and intrigue, of deserting armies and spies bought over, to justify their case that Indians are incurably corrupt. If we are to believe these purveyors of the eugenics of corruption, then surely we have a pro-corruption gene lurking somewhere in our South Asian DNA.

Yet, studies across the world show that many countries have been able to drastically reduce corruption, so fast that we cannot attribute its demise to a sudden improvement in morals and ethics. They did this mostly through a series of system improvements and simultaneous crackdowns on the corrupt.

There are several rigorous theses that have been built around a “systems” view of corruption. One respected model is by Robert Klitgaard, who presents an understanding of corruption in a simple yet powerful formula, C=M+D–A, corruption equals monopoly plus discretion, minus accountability. Wherever these conditions exist, be it the public or private sector, corruption tends to happen.

The solution to corruption is self-evident in the formula. If we reduce monopolies, reduce discretion and increase accountability, corruption can come down dramatically.

Klitgaard’s approach to reducing corruption makes sense because it does not look upon corruption through the lens of morality, as the lamenters do. He terms corruption as a crime of calculation, not one of passion. Nobody is born corrupt. However, as long as people anywhere find that rewards are high and punishments are unlikely, they will continue to drift into corruption.

Those who support a Lokpal must realize that this institution alone cannot reduce corruption.

the Lokpal’s effect will be multiplied only if it goes hand in hand with systemic reform that simplifies procedures, reduces discretion and demonopolizes whatever can be demonopolized

The lamenters do play a useful role, though. Their depressing dirges about the corrupt culture of Indians may hurt national pride enough, to spark an upsurge of societal disapproval of corruption.

What we need not waste our time on is in wishing that morals will improve or waiting for messiahs to rid India magically off corruption. Nobody is going to descend from heaven and banish corruption by waving a magic wand.

We cannot outsource our anti-corruption initiatives to agitations and hunger strikes either..

A systemic approach to reducing corruption

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 29 Jun 2011 22:45

I am sorry but this article appears slightly silly....

harbans wrote:
Those who support a Lokpal must realize that this institution alone cannot reduce corruption.
.

No one, even the execrable jhollawalla has ever said that Lokpal was going to be the silver bullet which will cure corruption. People always ask for this as one leg of many needed steps (one step would be total electoral decimation of corrupt) by the society as a whole.

What is the tendency of some folks to show superiority by knocking down straw men?

The only person who does not understand that everybody around him is clued on more than the author himself, is the author. He needs to figure out what is the role HE wants to do.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 29 Jun 2011 22:48

Manishw wrote:
http://www.theindiasite.com/family-poli ... arliament/

On the state of politics in India today.

From the link:

Family Politics | How nepotistic is the Indian Parliament?

Do young people stand a chance of joining national politics in India? If you are young, the odds are overwhelmingly against you – unless you have a close family member in politics.

-A shocking 100% of Indian MPs under the age of 30 are hereditary
p
-Two-thirds of Indian MPs under the age of 40 are from political families
p
-Less than 10% of MPs over the age of 70 are hereditary
p
-27 MPs are classified as ‘hyperhereditary’, and 19 of them are in the Congress party. By hyperhereditary, we mean that they have multiple family connections, and several family members who have made a career out of politics.

India may indeed be the world’s largest democracy, and everyone has a right to vote – and that is a precious thing. But does everyone really have an opportunity to stand for Parliament? You can vote, but what are the chances you will ever be voted for, given the growing lack of internal democracy in many of the major political parties?

While researching his new book India: A Portrait – published in the USA by Alfred A. Knopf in June 2011 – Patrick French (@PatrickFrench2 on Twitter) conducted a one-of-its kind survey which tried to answer the following question: What does it take to join politics at the national level today? Is it within or out of reach for the many millions of capable Indians who might like to throw a hat in the ring?

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Are these families going to change their ways because of some anti corruption movements?They will keep on finding new ways of looting the public.No amount of systemic changes is going to change anything and as soon as the spotlight is off they will go on to their merry corrupted hindu bashing ways.They have insured that the current political system benefits not only themselves but their kith and kin as well.Only a total overhaul of the political system forced by the common man will change all this.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 29 Jun 2011 22:52

Sanku wrote:I am sorry but this article appears slightly silly....

harbans wrote:
Those who support a Lokpal must realize that this institution alone cannot reduce corruption.
.
No one, even the execrable jhollawalla has ever said that Lokpal was going to be the silver bullet which will cure corruption. People always ask for this as one leg of many needed steps (one step would be total electoral decimation of corrupt) by the society as a whole.

What is the tendency of some folks to show superiority by knocking down straw men?

The only person who does not understand that everybody around him is clued on more than the author himself, is the author. He needs to figure out what is the role HE wants to do.

Sanku Ji,
Some people relish on playing defenders to the corrupt system and its obfuscating advocates on this forum but sometimes they loose their plot and get confused so acting intellectually superior by creating straw men etc. is only what they can think off.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 29 Jun 2011 22:59

Some people relish on playing defenders to the corrupt system and its advocates on this forum

Manish WTF is wrong with you? I just posted a sensible article that accepts the role of the LP as a leg in the stool. Do you have any thing apart from personal attacks to offer? Where the F have i DEFENDED Corruption you retarded arsehole? You call mne a defender of Corruption i call you that.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 29 Jun 2011 23:01

Frustration is going to somebody's head and the smoke from the backside is now unstoppable.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 29 Jun 2011 23:03

So explain to me..you said that i have defended corruption. If that's not personal what is?

Only a retard of the highest level would say that here. You are one to have said that.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 29 Jun 2011 23:13

No one, even the execrable jhollawalla has ever said that Lokpal was going to be the silver bullet which will cure corruption. People always ask for this as one leg of many needed steps (one step would be total electoral decimation of corrupt) by the society as a whole.

What is the tendency of some folks to show superiority by knocking down straw men?

Sanku Ji, if you just read the first par of the article, you'd have realized that he said it has it's uses:

They are right, too. India’s oversight of higher level government, including high-level politicians, bureaucrats and judges, is weak and fragmented. The result—few of them have lost jobs or faced criminal action for corruption.

The solution to corruption is self-evident in the formula. If we reduce monopolies, reduce discretion and increase accountability, corruption can come down dramatically. Demonopolization of the telephony sector shows how corruption has been eliminated in retail telephony services. The filing of e-returns for income tax, automatic assessments and sending of tax refunds directly to assessee bank accounts is an example of reducing corruption through the elimination of human discretion. Seen through the filter of this formula, the positioning of a strong Lokpal within an overarching anti-corruption system is in increasing accountability.

The above 2 paragraphs are in support of the leg that the LP may provide as quoted in the article. So whats the beef with it wrt what you said?

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 29 Jun 2011 23:14

harbans wrote:I am posting this for only one reason: Defending Somnath ji and his POV. ( Though i am sure he does not require this defense)

Need I say more?You foul mouthed mongrel.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 29 Jun 2011 23:32

Manish you truly are retarded. Somnath Ji's views have not been contradicted here. He too is talking systemic reform. Not defending corruption one bit. You are truly a retard if you take it any other way. So in your retarded view defending Somnath ji's views on systemic reform == defending corruption?

Better not say you are on the side of Indics. Such improper conclusions and delusions belong to Paki deff and dumb type fora. You give a bad name really to what you claim to defend. Honestly.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 29 Jun 2011 23:35

harbans wrote: So whats the beef with it wrt what you said?

Sure Harbans-ji, thats why I said the article was slightly silly and not wholly silly.

I issue with the article is that it tends to view the other talking about corruption as dumb. "Lamenters have their uses" -- it says -- I am sorry WHAT?

This does not show the author in good light, trying as he is to run down those who care as dumb folks who are not on his "elite level" -- I have had enough of this "holier than thou" business and speaking about others. Why cant folks restrict to speaking their version!!

But for this flaw, I do not find the article wrong. But this sense of eliteness MUST be replaced by one of inclusion. That is sorely needed in India today.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 29 Jun 2011 23:40

Archan Ji, fair enough. I just posted an article. Nothing more. To be called a defender of corruption by a poster who doesn't understand the nuances, rather basics behind what the article implies is a bit too much for anyone. I detest corruption and obviously have written pages to provide solutions.

I trust you agree falsely accusing others of defending corruption goes too far..i only called him retarded to come to such a sorry and drastically personal conclusion on the basis of an article posted by a person who has been on corruption now for some time.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 29 Jun 2011 23:40

VinayB wrote: 1. AH is a conspiracy. Like candles following 26/11 and 'not politicize terrorism' chant that confused a section of people. But such CTs may not work all the time, and will not work with rural foliks if they dont turn into undie tv. After Nira tapes and given the line up in Tihar, it will not work as well as it did before.
2. BRD is a conspiracy. This can actually be pretty bad for main opposition. A new political party that has Hindu icons + anti-corruption. That is like about a hundred MNS
3. BRD is a nationalist campaign with chanakyas behind. A few days back there was a report in Hindu from a congress beat journo naming names.
4. AH is also part of this nationalist campaign. I personally like this possibility. If it is a nationalist campaign, this idea looks brilliant.

My gut feel is that AH is a nationalist. However he was handpicked by vested interests to play certain game, similar to MKG. I see the cat and mouse game between him and his handlers. He gives in here and there so he is in the lime light for the sake of the cause.

BRD's vision, IMHO, is for a Dharmic Bharat. He envisions to transform in all aspects of the nation hood.

For lack of better example: AH is happy with a corruption free India, even if it means India is [sic] secularized. BR is happy with a SD Bharat, even if there remains some corruption.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 29 Jun 2011 23:47

I issue with the article is that it tends to view the other talking about corruption as dumb. "Lamenters have their uses" -- it says -- I am sorry WHAT?

Sanku Ji, if one only laments on corruption or one aspect that of policing..it is a lament. The solutions however much one may decry do lie in systemic reform as i have been stressing on. If people harping on systemic reform are labelled as defenders of corruption, i can only say with sorrow, how far we really are from fighting corruption. Then it becomes only lament. Nothing else. So i do agree with the person who wrote the article in that respect. Lamenting alone will not help, neither subjective calls for revolution. Hard headed changes in policy alone along with better accountability will ensure we are out of this mess. To dismiss the systemic point of view regarding reducing corruption is just perpetuating it.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 29 Jun 2011 23:47

Somnath ji and Brihaspati ji are two of the sanest members here,I respect their posts. It is not in good taste if anyone is getting personal just because of what others write. BRF should have a filter that automatically stars ***** all the expletives.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 29 Jun 2011 23:49

RamaY wrote: For lack of better example: AH is happy with a corruption free India, even if it means India is [sic] secularized. BR is happy with a SD Bharat, even if there remains some corruption.

RamaY-ji, I do not think AH is remotely "secular" as per the Mainovadi definition of term secular. He has been invoking the terms "Bharat Ma", "Shivaji" etc all too freely. Especially in his earlier days of the movement.

I do not think a 74 year old, retired Army man, known for strong views would have changed is deep beliefs just to get along. Can not happen.

Of course he has let his movement be "secularized". The million Ruppee question is why. Many options exist (he is naive and is being played, he is not strong enough and being carried by the current, he is uber chankian) -- full spectrum actually.

I am not sure whats up here though -- the only saving grace is neither does congress seems to have a clue.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 29 Jun 2011 23:52

harbans wrote:
I issue with the article is that it tends to view the other talking about corruption as dumb. "Lamenters have their uses" -- it says -- I am sorry WHAT?
Sanku Ji, if one only laments on corruption or one aspect that of policing..it is a lament..

I do not think the author has any remote authority of making such judgment about people at large. He is not god. He does not fully understand what people do or do not do 100%

This tendency IS NOT acceptable.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 30 Jun 2011 00:01

Sanku maharaj,

AH is walking in MKG's foot steps. At personal level he is Indic. But he doesn't mind a [sic] secular India if it were to be corruption free.

Long time ago I summarized it as some one believing India's transformation/journey (Vedic > Buddhist > Vedic > Islamic invasions > Colonization > Partition > [sic] secularism > Cronyism > EJism) to be Bharat. The other view is true Bharat is absolute, the transformation is just a transformation.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 30 Jun 2011 00:14

harbans wrote:Archan Ji, fair enough. I just posted an article. Nothing more. To be called a defender of corruption by a poster who doesn't understand the nuances, rather basics behind what the article implies is a bit too much for anyone. I detest corruption and obviously have written pages to provide solutions.

I trust you agree falsely accusing others of defending corruption goes too far..i only called him retarded to come to such a sorry and drastically personal conclusion on the basis of an article posted by a person who has been on corruption now for some time.

Ah , The superiority complex of the brainless and their right to abuse.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Jun 2011 00:54

ramana wrote:I think the INC folks are putting in place structures to continue to rule by proxy even is they are thrown out of office. The INC-Hazare version of Lokpal, the NAC drafted communal law all are tools to keep the levers of governance in their hands.

I stand by this earlier post. The INC is using AH to include the PM in Lokpal purview to use it as a future lever when they are out of pwoer.

AH is suggesitng to SG to persuade MMS to agree to that requirement.

Its the other way around to control future govts even when out of power.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 30 Jun 2011 00:55

harbans wrote:Archan Ji, fair enough. I just posted an article. Nothing more. To be called a defender of corruption by a poster who doesn't understand the nuances, rather basics behind what the article implies is a bit too much for anyone. I detest corruption and obviously have written pages to provide solutions.

I trust you agree falsely accusing others of defending corruption goes too far..i only called him retarded to come to such a sorry and drastically personal conclusion on the basis of an article posted by a person who has been on corruption now for some time.

Is this not an personnel attack especially after advising him to chill and does the polemic style of his has to impress everybody as it does him.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 30 Jun 2011 00:59

ramana wrote:
ramana wrote:I think the INC folks are putting in place structures to continue to rule by proxy even is they are thrown out of office. The INC-Hazare version of Lokpal, the NAC drafted communal law all are tools to keep the levers of governance in their hands.
I stand by this earlier post. The INC is using AH to include the PM in Lokpal purview to use it as a future lever when they are out of pwoer.
AH is suggesitng to SG to persuade MMS to agree to that requirement.
Its the other way around to control future govts even when out of power.

Highly probable and scary proposition. How does one remove/change LP?

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 30 Jun 2011 01:11

My govt is being termed most corrupt ever: PM
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 044146.cms

Indian PM Manmohan Singh denies 'lame duck' charge
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13954348

This PM begins to defend and hide these things with his speeches and discussions. Power can blind even uncorrupt man like MMS.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 30 Jun 2011 01:20

^ MMS's statement throws trash on everyone who is defending INC leadership's (SG and MMS) clean image.

I wish MMS speaks more clearly on the fact that his administration is an INC administration and not an MMS administration and given SG's political control on portfolio selection and policy control thru NAC.

Otherwise he will become the fall guy for INC as they would twist the propaganda machine to claim that only a family member can offer clean governance and the experiment of having non-family leadership failed both times on corruption charges (PVNR and MMS).

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 30 Jun 2011 01:27

somnath wrote:
Or maybe, just maybe, the good Baba is attempting a live demonstration of how to bring transparency through a process of ambiguity and obfuscation and glib rustic talk! In the same vein as his live demostration to the differently oriented on specific asanas to cure the "disease" (I mean I assume he did his yoga while being cross dressed)

Interesting piece on the BR phenomenon by Dipankar Gupta...
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/story ... 40882.html

Since I cant accept all this bashing and people like Sanjeevpunj decrying his posts as the greatest and the obvious tilt towards harbans by archan for his fully retarded and polemical posts supported by archan here , I guess its time for me to say goodbye.Thanks for all that I have learnt and special thanks to Brihaspati Ji, Rammana Ji, Sanku Ji and shiv Ji.Banning etc are good tools to show who is in charge here but archan you need not bother since this is my last post and visit here.

archan · Post by **archan** » 30 Jun 2011 01:45

BRF (and internet debate in general) is not for everyone. Good luck in your future endeavours.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 30 Jun 2011 02:09

joshvajohn wrote:My govt is being termed most corrupt ever: PM
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 044146.cms

Can someone identify all these "preferred editors" of MMS from the photographs in that link.

Shekhar gupta has already proved to be more loyal than the king with his statements

An elected government has been hijacked by intellectual charlatans, former babu busybodies, has-beens and wannabes, even some assorted nutcases and loonies

I want to know what is the constitutuency which MMS wanted to talk to, to cover up his govt doings. I will also look for sudden increases in the govt ads for these papers. These news papers will be the preferred route for pushing new nonsense from the congress.

Edit: wrong identification of Shekhar gupta
continued on
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 9#p1119599

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 30 Jun 2011 02:57

If we knew who are these five editors (kalyuga pandavas) MMS met, we would know which part of media to ignore.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 30 Jun 2011 06:18

nikkap wrote:
symontk wrote:You are welcome to take that step. Taking away consent means you are no longer an Indian citizen, which only means you need a VISA to stay longer in India

Even if you are US citizen, you have to follow traffic rules in India, no way out sir
yes you are missing one thing when you are not CITIZEN then you are one of the people of india in soverign capacity & nobody can revoke that. following traffic rules is somerhing different.Do you think if i deregister myvehicle & surrender my license does that give me an authority to jump red light & speeding no it doesn't. in common law it boils down to liability.all i am saying is that they have no jurisdiction over me to issue me tickets/impose their taxes force me to pollution certificate , buy insurance every year,wear selt belt etc. india has a two tier system ( republic under common law democracy under statue law) as you previously said earlier DEMOCRACTIC REPUBLIC.

Please, I dont understand the point of discussion. pollution certificate , buying vehicle insurance every year, wearing selt belt all comes under traffic or traffic related rules

How does these laws change if you change the method of governance? I am not able to understand that part. Are you saying that communist, religious or dictator countries dont have these traffic laws?

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 30 Jun 2011 07:56

Manmohan rants against the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG): http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 044146.cms

He hit out at the Comptroller and Auditor General whose reports on 2G and alleged favors to oil firms have embarrassed the government for overstepping its constitutional mandate. "It has never been in the past that the CAG has held a press conference as the present CAG (Vinod Rai) has done. Never in the past has the CAG decided to comment on a policy issue. It should limit the office to the role defined in the Constitution".

One wonders how Mainovadis ever allowed an upright individual to ever become the CAG??

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 30 Jun 2011 08:45

Op-ed article by Kapil Sibal..

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Up-the-ga ... 15385.aspx

Some valid points, some not so...

The most valid one is this..

The Jan Lokpal Bill provides an alternative wherein 11 unelected wise men will have the sole authority to prosecute a member of the higher judiciary. The consequences are worse when you consider that the Jan Lokpal Bill will have independent investigating and prosecuting agencies. No judge will ever dare to differ with the views of a prosecutor of the lokpal since he might face prosecution himself if his orders are misunderstood

Its a fair point - an investigator/prosecutor more "powerful" than the judge whose court he is arguing in?!

There is a separate Judicial Accountability Bill that is in the works, which aims to correct a lot of the excesses in the current judicial appointment processes and gaps in prosecuting corrupt judges..

The most disingeneuous is this..On PM..

None of us is being more loyal than the king when we seek to protect, not the individual, but the office of the PM. Given the nature of our polity, quick-fire unsubstantiated allegations made for political mileage are likely to paralyse institutions. The office of the PM is the lynchpin of our parliamentary democracy. An independent, non-angelic jan lokpal could well destabilise the entire system and investigate a PM only to find out that the allegations were not true.

In our current system, there is no limit on any accusations against the PM at all...And the worst thing is that those accusations mostly just hang out in the air, without any resolution...Result? Many simply assume that they are true...In a Lokpal scenario, given the defined timelines on investigation and adjudication, the acusation will need to be disposed off, in time...It will only enhance the reputation of the PM...In terms of "disuption", no more or less than it is today, with sundry people throwing myriad ones at him....

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 30 Jun 2011 08:57

somnath wrote:
The Jan Lokpal Bill provides an alternative wherein 11 unelected wise men will have the sole authority to prosecute a member of the higher judiciary. The consequences are worse when you consider that the Jan Lokpal Bill will have independent investigating and prosecuting agencies. No judge will ever dare to differ with the views of a prosecutor of the lokpal since he might face prosecution himself if his orders are misunderstood
Its a fair point - an investigator/prosecutor more "powerful" than the judge whose court he is arguing in?!

There is a separate Judicial Accountability Bill that is in the works, which aims to correct a lot of the excesses in the current judicial appointment processes and gaps in prosecuting corrupt judges..

Even if the Lokpal prosecutes one judge, there will be another judge who will rule on the case. And that is nothing different from the system that exists today.

A separate body for acting against corruption in the Judiciary may be ok, but one will have to look at all the fine print before endorsing anything.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 30 Jun 2011 08:59

Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi on Wednesday ridiculed the Centre's decision to put 25 paise coins out of circulation and wondered whether this was the Congress government's “strong step” to unearth black money.

He said when the people joined their voice with the yoga expert Baba Ramdev for the demonetisation of thousand rupee notes, which was the only way to unearth black money, the Centre responded by stopping 25 paise coins. This reflected, he said, the Centre's lack of desire to fight against black money.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 145401.ece

Also from the same story:

Attacking the Centre for the “overnight” reduction in Gujarat's quota of kerosene in fair price shops, he said it was one of the many instances of the Centre's step-motherly treatment to the State. “Are the people of Gujarat not the citizens of India and don't they deserve some fair treatment from the Centre?” He said he would continue to stand “firm” between the injudicious Centre and the poor people of the State.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 30 Jun 2011 09:55

Manishw wrote: Since I cant accept all this bashing and people like Sanjeevpunj decrying his posts as the greatest and the obvious tilt towards harbans by archan for his fully retarded and polemical posts supported by archan here , I guess its time for me to say goodbye.Thanks for all that I have learnt and special thanks to Brihaspati Ji, Rammana Ji, Sanku Ji and shiv Ji.Banning etc are good tools to show who is in charge here but archan you need not bother since this is my last post and visit here.

Manishw I did not say greatest, I just said I respect their posts.That doesnt mean I do not respect other people's posts. I am surprised you give up so easily and go, instead of placing your own points quietly, and sitting calm. We are a "discussion" forum surely and not a "fight it out in real" forum.The conclusions we arrive at in here might be of use to someone in the world outside, that is the point of having such forums, so that people gather different viewpoints, see things from all angles, and then act in their lives.I wish you all the best wherever you go, but mutual respect alone is the best policy in BRF as well as any other forums, and in the real world outside.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 30 Jun 2011 12:16

Pranav wrote:Even if the Lokpal prosecutes one judge, there will be another judge who will rule on the case. And that is nothing different from the system that exists today.

That isnt right..Today, allegations against judges are examined and adjudicated upon by a collegium (of SC judges)...Impeachment of course is through a 2/3rd majority in Parliament..

In the Lokpal case, the Lokpal, in case it has judicial powers over judges, is also a designated policeman..Ergo, he is the investigator, prosecutor and judge - all rolled into one...

The current process is eggregious enough, but Lokpal would be a worse solution...A spearate instittuion needs to be setup, that looks into the whole process - appointment to dismissal - The Judicial Accountability Bill attempts exactly that..

nikkap · Post by **nikkap** » 30 Jun 2011 13:37

symontk wrote:[Please, I dont understand the point of discussion. pollution certificate , buying vehicle insurance every year, wearing selt belt all comes under traffic or traffic related rules

How does these laws change if you change the method of governance? I am not able to understand that part. Are you saying that communist, religious or dictator countries dont have these traffic laws?

All of These comes under MOTOR VEHICLE ACT. these are designed to extract money from you that’s it.A study was conducted by insurance co that at an average a person met with an accident in an average of once in 28 years then insurance co tag up with our officials to launch a scam called motor vehicle insurance act india now every year you have to caugh up your money to buy insurance whether you need it or not. calculate no of vehicle x premium received – damages claimed (remember once in 28 years )= NET PROFIT (IMAGINE THIS FIGURE EVERY YEAR).govt gets a cut in this & thru traffic police govt make sure that you buy policy every year & if u don’t bingo a challan another monetary gain for govt & traffic police makes sure that you wear seatbelt follow their rules so that damages if any occur should be minimum so that insurance co. have to pay minimum amount all this goes on in the name of YOUR SAFETY like patriotic act of America.

Now under common law remember I told you about liability. you are fully liable for your action like LAW OF KARMA if I broke your glass I am fully liable to pay for it so when you drive under common law not statue law your responsibility increases manifold i.e why I told you that doesn’t give me an authority to jump red light & speeding but under common law their authority over you is finished in nutshell they cannot extract money from your pocket this is what I called stop feeding the beast.yes can do all that lawfully then govt will realize who is incharge. Remember before every court case start why they make you swear on GITA/BIBLE because that is your remedy under common law.brother I am on your side I am not the enemy everything I say is backed by evidence & court case I need help to study law in depth coz I cannot study every ACT & found the remedy within.this govt have crossed all the limits of decency & good governance we have to show them that we are incharge not them. "When injustice becomes law, peaceful rebellion becomes duty"

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 30 Jun 2011 13:45

The full interview of the PM..

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... gh/441021/

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 30 Jun 2011 13:48

somnath wrote:The Judicial Accountability Bill attempts exactly that

Draft of the Bill..

http://164.100.24.167/newcommittee/pres ... 202010.pdf

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 30 Jun 2011 14:12

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 30 Jun 2011 15:06

somnath wrote:
Pranav wrote:Even if the Lokpal prosecutes one judge, there will be another judge who will rule on the case. And that is nothing different from the system that exists today.
That isnt right..Today, allegations against judges are examined and adjudicated upon by a collegium (of SC judges)...Impeachment of course is through a 2/3rd majority in Parliament..

In the Lokpal case, the Lokpal, in case it has judicial powers over judges, is also a designated policeman..Ergo, he is the investigator, prosecutor and judge - all rolled into one...

The current process is eggregious enough, but Lokpal would be a worse solution...A spearate instittuion needs to be setup, that looks into the whole process - appointment to dismissal - The Judicial Accountability Bill attempts exactly that..

In today's system, allegations of corruption by a judge are investigated by a police inspector. There is no law which exempts judges from the normal criminal justice machinery.