Indian Army: News & Discussion

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Jun 2011 11:53

a lot of the IA's budget though looking majority % on paper goes into pay and pensions I think.

one should compare the amt for capex between IA:IAF:IN to get the real meat of the matter, not total finmin budget allocation %

IN has the smallest serving and retired manpower. so their bang:buck ratio will be higher than the budgetary % indicates, and to a lesser extent true for IAF also.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 21 Jun 2011 19:35

chandanus wrote:TATRA trucks are chai-biscoot stuff for any army..no big deal .....waht i am asking is..are they plannning to get some premium wine like stuff ....

800 TATRA trucks is not Chai-biskoot for the Indian Army, neither is the 2 Regiments of Akash. orders for Pinaka Rackets also sucks up money. IA is manpower intensive, hence their CapEx would be dwarfed by Opex. Also COIN taken up funding too. Only when they order big fishes like Artillery would you see CapEx spending from Army.. till then it is only a trickle, BUT A STEADY TRICKLE.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 21 Jun 2011 21:01

one should compare the amt for capex between IA:IAF:IN to get the real meat of the matter, not total finmin budget allocation %

The IAF dominates the other two ( share of Capex >> 40 percent). Airpower is a frightfully capital intensive business.

At the moment Army gets more than the Navy but that's changing at a modest pace, but definitely changing.

Whichever way you look at it, the Army will become DRDO's best buddy in the years to come, just like the Navy is chums with it at the moment.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 21 Jun 2011 21:08

chackojoseph wrote:Actually, Only tac nukes can be launched in pakistan Punjab. Strategic nukes (means fat ladies) is counter productive. We need to nuke only the paki Punjab.

That is not exactly correct, IMO. It is the clear separation of the type of assets and its positioning that demarcates strategic from tactical. Usually a doctrine which indicates non use of nuclear assets in battlefield weapons such as short range missiles, artillery, fighters, cruise missiles and the use of nuclear war heads almost exclusively in other types of systems such as long range bombers, IRBM, SLBM. The theory again being nuclear war fighting in a battle field is not viable and hence restriction of nuclear assets to certain classes of delivery assets and its relative positioning in the order of the battle field provides a degree of predictability.

The theory is a clear separation of these type of delivery assets promotes stability - and hence strategic, as some asset types can be used freely without escalation by themselves.

India will seek to move down this path of stabilization and separation of strategic from tactical to enable this stabilization, TSP on the other hand will seek to be ambivalent as stability is not in their interest, as they see it - even if they are in no position to move to a nuclear war fighting doctrine from ANY angle.

Expect India to move towards Agni as the primary land based deterrent and give up its reliance on the Prithvi, in due course. Non use of nuclear war heads in cruise missiles, restriction of air assets and type of air launched weapons to certain classes and maybe locations and SLBM's reserved for its sea based deterrent. Now, some type of short range missiles may still be retained but expect some type of clear demarcation.

It is a secondary matter that because nuclear war heads are reserved for dooms day scenarios and excluded from war fighting, it makes sense to mate them to heavier type of assets with larger pay loads. Punjab of TSP is fine landing ground for the same.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Jun 2011 01:34

D Roy wrote:
one should compare the amt for capex between IA:IAF:IN to get the real meat of the matter, not total finmin budget allocation %
The IAF dominates the other two ( share of Capex >> 40 percent). Airpower is a frightfully capital intensive business.

At the moment Army gets more than the Navy but that's changing at a modest pace, but definitely changing.

Whichever way you look at it, the Army will become DRDO's best buddy in the years to come, just like the Navy is chums with it at the moment.

Well Army procurement works at its own pace.

Indian industry will get some good orders from the Army in coming days, months, years.
The Army has some 5 mega C3I projects going on - CIDSS (Corps Level Information System), BMS, TCS (Tactical Communications System - to complement/supplant AREN), ADCRS (Air Defense Control and Reporting system). Then there is F-INSAS, with its own IT component. In all of these, Indian industry will play a role, even if a foreign vendor is involved.

Also, the Army has gone ahead and indicated its support for the DRDO plan to work on 155mm gun with private and public partners. Its Director General Artillery has hailed it as a welcome step (surprise surprise). Looks like the protracted 155mm saga has made them realize the value of a local solution. One hopes so.

There is also the FICV plan for which private industry has been tapped. HAL says it will get many more LCH orders. LUH will bring more business to HAL also. Offsets will also come into play benefiting local industry.

Its also been stated that the two regiments of Akash will be followed by more orders of Akash, or even MRSAM once it is ready, provided a mobile version can be developed.On a not so positive note, some sections in Army are also keen to replace INSAS with a newer rifle - imported and then license manufactured by OFB. A wasteful decision if it occurs, IMO.

Army yet to decide on T-72 Fire Control system but the modernization plan, many thousands of crores worth, is now cleared. Many items from DRDO, local industry but FCS, some items may need import and then TOT for production.

Also talk of ordering more Night vision devices - thermal imagers and PNVGs. Many Israeli & French sets (some license assembled by BEL) in service for troops at border but more required for bulk of army.

Hopefully these orders will be open tendered to private industry and BEL, not just BEL. May best vendor win.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 23 Jun 2011 03:57

No Infiltration Across LoC This Year: Army
Glass half full or half empty?

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 23 Jun 2011 09:53

Craig Alpert wrote:No Infiltration Across LoC This Year: Army

A very good news indeed, I wonder if the General is only talking about the valley? I heard that Sopore is not exactly peaceful, meaning there are militants controlling pockets of influence. which would lead one to beleive that they are getting guns, supplies and fresh blood from across the border. One thing to note is the SHEER ABSENCE OF LOCAL KASHMIRIS AMONG THE TERRORIST. Either they have all been culled or lying low or that the Pukes don't trust them anymore to wage Jihaad on behalf of the Pakjaabis.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 23 Jun 2011 10:15

ShauryaT wrote:
Actually, Only tac nukes can be launched in pakistan Punjab. Strategic nukes (means fat ladies) is counter productive. We need to nuke only the paki Punjab.[/quote wrote:That is not exactly correct, IMO. It is the clear separation of the type of assets and its positioning that demarcates strategic from tactical. Usually a doctrine which indicates non use of nuclear assets.. war heads are reserved for dooms day scenarios and excluded from war fighting, it makes sense to mate them to heavier type of assets with larger pay loads. Punjab of TSP is fine landing ground for the same.
ShauryaT,

What you said is bit complicated. Paki land is just 350 kms depth or less from Indian border. Out of that, Balochistan is is a huge landmass and need not be nuked. Those folks are friendly and given such situation, its counter productive.

then there is Sindh, Waziristan etc.

Paki nukable area is jut "paki Punjab (so called)" and it has a depth of may 150 kms (hypothetical). if you explode a fat lady in this area, the radiation will travel back to Food bowl Punjab (I don't mind the politicians in New Delhi), and other heavily industrially dominant area.

When India blasted Shakti's, they had two sub kilo's. This is paki specific. They are successfull and we have a deterent against the Pukes.

The other 3 blasts, I don't want to touch (like hydrogen bomb etc), as it will complicate this discussion.

We need more smaller nukes to take out specific knee bending targets in paki Punjab (or out side , where i said we need not do it).

Agni is not a weapon of choice in this case due to time takn from the distance travelled. You need shorter range, cruise type with brahmos land version type seeker. or aircraft.

IMHO

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 23 Jun 2011 11:48

chackojoseph wrote:When India blasted Shakti's, they had two sub kilo's. This is paki specific. They are successfull and we have a deterent against the Pukes.
Agni is not a weapon of choice in this case due to time takn from the distance travelled. You need shorter range, cruise type with brahmos land version type seeker. or aircraft.

India would be fielding a lot of smaller bums, sub-kiloton or otherwise.. at the same time they will threaten with larger bums if the shit hits the roof.
Agni variants are for Cheena. SRBMs like Prithvi and Danush (which is just a naval variant with some additional bells&whistles) is for the pukes. I always thought Brahmos would be used to deliver a smaller Bum, it looks like Brahmos is exclusively meant for conventional warheads, but who know what will happen tomorrow.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 23 Jun 2011 16:50

chackojoseph ji: Apologies for not keeping it more simplified but nuclear war is a complicated matter. I differ in your rationales and your views of targets and assets to be used and it would be OT to explain in this thread. Maybe some other time in deterrence or an appropriate thread. Thanks.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 23 Jun 2011 19:19

ST,

please guide me to the thread, I would like to read whats in your mind.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 27 Jun 2011 08:28

Indian Army Chief will have to retire in 2012

Indian Army raising new special forces battalion

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 27 Jun 2011 09:04

With respect to the Gen. VK Singh's DOB, I guess this is the final revenge from Lt. General Avadesh Prakash. IMO, he has been trying to raise question mark on the appoint of VK Singh as COAS from the day it became clear that he would be COAS designate.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 27 Jun 2011 10:22

I dont understand how Vahnavatiji can stick to the prior DOB, when LawMin, and two eminent retired SC judges have given the opinion that the later date is correct. If the Chief chooses to go to court, he will win.

Most likely, for the image of the service he will not do so. Govt will also probably offer him a sop like a gubernatorial appt post retirement.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 28 Jun 2011 11:37

Time for a new Army Chief

Be that as it may, by lobbying for his extension and taking the help of retired justices in the process, General Singh has crossed the Lakshman Rekha. I am convinced that his intentions have never been strictly military; these have been loaded with elements of self-promotion. This is dangerous for the Army and the country. Defence Minister Antony must display the guts to show the General the door. India needs a new Army Chief.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 28 Jun 2011 11:44

ASPuar wrote:I dont understand how Vahnavatiji can stick to the prior DOB, when LawMin, and two eminent retired SC judges have given the opinion that the later date is correct. If the Chief chooses to go to court, he will win.

Most likely, for the image of the service he will not do so. Govt will also probably offer him a sop like a gubernatorial appt post retirement.

What is the relevance of the two retired SC judges?

And what is their locus standi in this matter?

Anybody can shoot their mouth's off.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 29 Jun 2011 05:37

Army to fill all vacancies in training academies

This year, the vacancies of around 2,300 officers would be filled in training academies including the Indian Military Academy (IMA) in Dehradun and in Chennai, senior Army officials said here.

The Army is facing a shortage of 12,349 officers against its sanctioned strength of around 46,500 officers and is also looking to increase the number of officers to meet the new security requirements on both fronts. The Army has a total strength of 1.3 million.

wig · Post by **wig** » 30 Jun 2011 08:44

Army may be left with just seven firing ranges in 3 yrs

While over 60 per cent of the Army’s field firing ranges (FFRs) remain non-operational for training purposes due to non-notification by state governments, the number of such ranges is forecast to dwindle down to just seven in the next three years.

According to official documents, there are 92 notified FFRs in the country, out of which notification for 57 ranges has expired. This figure was 54 two years ago. Non-availability of ranges has an adverse impact on training and operational preparedness as it restricts mechanised manoeuvres under simulated battle conditions as well as prevents live firing by tanks and artillery that is vital for battle inoculation of troops and testing equipment. This raised serious concerns in several quarters as it has a direct impact on national security.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2011/20110630/nation.htm#11

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 01 Jul 2011 12:03

Can anyone ID the Mechanized / Armoured Regiment garrisoned at Kapurthala? Thanks. there is significant Armour here and can't ID it. Only PUBLIC domain information please.

I figured this out, it is 12th Armoured Regiment with T90S MBTs. As per Sainik Samachar!!!

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 02 Jul 2011 05:00

Army jawans to get as much meat as officers

This comes after a similar increase in the scale of fruits and eggs for JCOs (junior commissioned officers) and other ranks was approved to bring it on par with the officers, who number just about 35,000 in the 1.13-million strong Army. "JCOs and jawans, for instance, now get two eggs every day just like officers," he said.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 03 Jul 2011 20:23

Boy dies after alleged firing by army jawans
http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/tam ... 156170.ece

A 13-year-old boy on Sunday died of bullet injuries, after being allegedly shot by army personnel while trespassing into their premises, triggering protests from locals.

The Army, however, denied the allegation that its personnel shot at Dilshan when he tried to pluck some fruits from the residential quarters in the premises.

Mystery shrouded the teenager’s death as an Army spokesperson said there was no armed guard inside the Island Ground colony near Tamil Nadu secretariat, virtually ruling out the force’s hand in the firing.

A case has been registered and the city police as well as the Military Police are investigating the incident, army sources said.

Irate residents staged a protest demanding action against those responsible for the incident after the family of the boy alleged that he had been shot in the head.
Meanwhile, Chief Minister Jayalalithaa alleged army personnel’s role in the boy’s death and announced Rs. 5 lakh compensation to his family.
"This is not acceptable," she said, adding her government has written to the General Officer Commanding here to hand over the guilty jawan to the state police for further investigation.

The army termed the incident as “very unfortunate,” and said it would not allow the guilty to go scot free.

“We have constituted a board of officers to carry out a proper search of the area including the houses adjoining the scene of the incident. The process of search is going on in detail,” Brigadier (Administration) Sashi Nair told reporters.

He said sniffer dogs have been deployed and officials from the forensic department were already on the job.

“In our colony here and in fact in all our colonies we don’t have any armed guard. Even if you see now at the main gate, we have outsourced (the security) to civilians. They have only a stick in their hand. There is no weapon that is authorised to come into any of these colonies,” he said, dismissing allegations by the boy’s relatives that the army had opened fire at him.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Jul 2011 20:36

The contradictions in the news report is bewildering! one can expect fire arms with police and armed forces zones, and one can't rule that out. What did the boy say before he died, anyone had asked?

May be this is a cover by after the insane killing or it could be the boy is a young gang rowdy chased by his rival, trying to get a safe zone inside IA zone., could be another story angle.

Nevertheless, IA and India in general must start thinking about having CCTV in various places, as this is a very cheap setup now-a-days.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 03 Jul 2011 20:37

^^

If the boy was shot by military authorities, they should just admit it, and point out the fact that trespass was in progress. There is no question of "handing over the "guilty" jawan", for doing what is only his duty. The law of the land attaches no guilt to a soldier who opens fire on an intruder. Its a very sad case, but there is no doubt that he was in defence land, unauthorisedly.

However, by the immediate statement of the station commander as to search and investigation, and cooperation, it is also possible he was in fact injured in some other way. Time will tell whether the injury was even a bullet wound, or is it just a rumour which was spread? Did he fall and hit his head? Was he, as SaiK points out above, injured by someone outside, and then succumbed within the compound?

It is true that defence residential zones these days have only private security guards....

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 03 Jul 2011 20:51

^^
I highly doubt that the boy was shot by Army Jawan and I am sure that the truth will come out in a few days. I say this because the Brigadier is not lying when he says that security of Officer's residential colonies is handled by private security agencies. This is also the case in some other big cantts including Pune. And the security guards are indeed armed with just lathis.
If the boy was trespassing some other Military installation then I could have digested the story. However, I see no way how this could have happened when the boy was in a residential area.
Also, Jayalalita is doing a pretty sickening but predictable job of fanning the flames. While her own state police has only just started investigating the matter, she has gone on to proclaim the Army as guilty.

Anyway, if the bullet is found then the matter will be cleared very swiftly.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Jul 2011 21:11

Gaur wrote:Boy dies after alleged firing by army jawans
http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/tam ... 156170.ece

A few days after 26/11 a young an was shot while trespassing into an army establishment on high alert in Bangalore. I have observed more security after PNS Mehran and the public announcement that security would be beefed up. The boy was trespassing it appears (stealing mangoes?) Unfortunately a trespass is a trespass.

ManjaM · Post by **ManjaM** » 03 Jul 2011 21:53

Col Vasanth's book Launch. Facebook page

A video in memorium.

Col Vasanth was a cousin of my BIL. People who can are requested to attend the book launch.

jimmy_moh · Post by **jimmy_moh** » 03 Jul 2011 22:20

Its brutal murder. He has to be punished in accordance with the law

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 03 Jul 2011 22:33

jimmy_moh wrote:Its brutal murder. He has to be punished in accordance with the law

Erm, can we wait till the investigation is over? It's not confirmed that the army personnel shot the kid.

jimmy_moh · Post by **jimmy_moh** » 03 Jul 2011 22:38

he is a kid for gods sake.......
and the situation is quite different especially in south.

Chennai is a vibrant town and is not a conflict zone. Though restricted the army-man should have warned him instead of showering bullets.

The situation would have been different in any other army areas , for example in Jammu or North east, but this is Chennai, there are no security threat and a single boy stealing mangoes is not a security issue.

PS:i didnt mean any security laps should happen in south but he is just a 13 year old kid

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 03 Jul 2011 22:49

^^
Did you even read what Sriman said?

jimmy_moh · Post by **jimmy_moh** » 03 Jul 2011 22:55

^^ it was nothing against his comment... let the investigation complete..........

anjan · Post by **anjan** » 03 Jul 2011 22:57

jimmy_moh wrote:he is a kid for gods sake.......
and the situation is quite different especially in south.

Chennai is a vibrant town and is not a conflict zone. Though restricted the army-man should have warned him instead of showering bullets.

The situation would have been different in any other army areas , for example in Jammu or North east, but this is Chennai, there are no security threat and a single boy stealing mangoes is not a security issue.

PS:i didnt mean any security laps should happen in south but he is just a 13 year old kid

Maybe you know if soldiers are actually equipped with live fire in residential compound? I know for a fact that civilian 'guards' with lathis are all the security that place has. Perhaps you know differently? Who is this mythical "army-man" whose actions you seem to know so much about? And how?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Jul 2011 23:00

you don't even know what happened and you are passing judgement ("it was a brutal murder" !) ?
and then "He has to be punished in accordance with the law" (as if anyone said he shouldn't be)

there should be a law against stupidity like this.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 03 Jul 2011 23:12

ah such stupidity

13 yr old have shot, blown etc many a soldier - so keep your histronics to yourself

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 03 Jul 2011 23:15

"Jimmy Moh", the Army has clearly said that it doesnt have armed sentries in residential areas, so the question of an army man shooting the kid seems a bit dubious. Such comments without complete information are highly unnecessary.

Whoever killed the boy (if anyone did at all, and it wasnt just some sort of accident), will be found out only after proper investigation. Until then, it is highly unnecessary to jump to hasty conclusions.

I will add, that sentries in military installations are authorised to use deadly force, and cannot be prosecuted for executing their sovereign duty as instructed.

Also, sentries ALWAYS warn intruders (challenge) before escalating force. It is part of their training and ID procedure.

And as Surya above says, there have been many a soldier and policeman in more disturbed parts of the nation who have killed by youngsters even younger than this boy. Mere age is no guarantee of innocence, and no protection against the lawful challenge of a sentry, whose duty it is to ensure that no unauth persons enter military areas.

jimmy_moh · Post by **jimmy_moh** » 03 Jul 2011 23:20

am sorry for my ignorance in my previous posts... but when i heard abt a kid killed by an army jawan am kind of disturbed thats all......

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 03 Jul 2011 23:21

manjaM - I would suggest you open a seperate thread for the Colonel's book launch so that it does not get lost here.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 03 Jul 2011 23:32

I have personally been to the area in question, of course, a few months back.. There was not a single armed soldier on sentry duty that day.. The guards had the old fashioned lathis, not even the new plastic fibers one..

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 03 Jul 2011 23:36

But the media is playing its usual negative role, and inciting even more passions. Worse, what if the act was committed by some antinational element, to fan negative sentiment about the services?

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 03 Jul 2011 23:37

jimmy_moh wrote:he is a kid for gods sake.......and the situation is quite different especially in south.

Chennai is a vibrant town and is not a conflict zone. Though restricted the army-man should have warned him instead of showering bullets.

The situation would have been different in any other army areas , for example in Jammu or North east, but this is Chennai, there are no security threat and a single boy stealing mangoes is not a security issue.

PS:i didnt mean any security laps should happen in south but he is just a 13 year old kid

I don't agree with your reasoning at all... here is why
We don't know if an Army Jawan shot him.
Assuming some Army Jawan shot the boy... couple of questions
1) How will a sentry know if the intruder is a 13 year old boy or a Jehadi
2) How will a sentry know if the intruder is a biy to pluck mango or explode a suicide vest
3) It does not matter if it is Chennai or ANC or Bangalore or Kochi, security is security... there would have been a SOP for handling any sitn,
4) forget conflict zone, after PNS Mehran... every base / defence colony is going to be protected...
5) How will you have reacted, if this ninja went into Dr J's house and her security shot him, what ill the security guards in TN assembly do? pack him a dozen mangos... they would have strung him by his balls.
6)Puke are using 8 yr old girls as duicide bombers, 13 yr old biy is fair game if here is tresspassing inside a defence area?

BTB, how do you know he was out to pluck mango and not scoping out a hit????