Indian Naval Discussion

John · Post by **John** » 28 Jun 2011 21:34

Kersi D wrote:
John wrote: Philip it doesn't make any sense for a submarine to carry anti submarine missiles, submarine has to get to about 50 meters to fire those missiles and launch it self will be detected by most sonars dozens of nm away. Not to mention make it extremely vulnerable to any AsuW platform.
No way !

Set a thief to catch a thief

Most of the navies in the world think (perhaps rightly so) that the submarine is perhaps the best ASW platform. I perosnally think that a sub with a Mk 48 ADCAP xyzw weapon is a vwey potent if not the best answer to a marauding sub.

K

My comment is regarding SUBROC like missile not sure what Mk 48 has to do with it.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 29 Jun 2011 01:01

Philip wrote:This gives an insight why we should acelerate our planned excursion/picnic into the Indo-Chinese sea! If the region is known worldwide as "Indo-China" then why is the sea falsely labelled as the SChina Sea?

I suggest that from now on all BRites describe the sea off the Vietnamese coast as the Indo-Chinese Sea!

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/18368/chin ... w-of-force

Perfect:

1. So called "South China Sea" = Indo-Chinese Sea

2. So called "Tibet" = Northern Arunachal Pradesh

I think we all on BRF should start using these terms and also while posting comments on different articles in different sites should mention these terms, so it starts catching people's eye!

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 29 Jun 2011 02:55

Manish_Sharma wrote:[1. So called "South China Sea" = Indo-Chinese Sea
2!

USA is already calling it Indo-Pacific region and this avoids bringing "China" in such equation.

UBanerjee · Post by **UBanerjee** » 29 Jun 2011 03:44

Yea- Indo-Pacific is even better than Indo-Chinese. Although the US analysts use Indo-Pacific to refer to entire West Pacific through Indian Ocean region.

Or we can use South East Asian Sea like some of the smaller asian countries there are doing. Names have power.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 29 Jun 2011 05:35

Prem wrote:
Manish_Sharma wrote:[1. So called "South China Sea" = Indo-Chinese Sea
2!
USA is already calling it Indo-Pacific region and this avoids bringing "China" in such equation.

US di Balle Balle! Guess we should place an order of 18 more Hercules as a puruskaar for being ahead of curve.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 29 Jun 2011 05:38

Bulava Aaya Hai.
deleted

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 29 Jun 2011 09:14

John wrote:
Kersi D wrote: Philip it doesn't make any sense for a submarine to carry anti submarine missiles, submarine has to get to about 50 meters to fire those missiles and launch it self will be detected by most sonars dozens of nm away. Not to mention make it extremely vulnerable to any AsuW platform.

No way !

Set a thief to catch a thief

Most of the navies in the world think (perhaps rightly so) that the submarine is perhaps the best ASW platform. I perosnally think that a sub with a Mk 48 ADCAP xyzw weapon is a vwey potent if not the best answer to a marauding sub.

K
My comment is regarding SUBROC like missile not sure what Mk 48 has to do with it.

SORRY. I over read missiles & torpedoes.

The Klub family also has a sub launched anti-sub missiles 91 RE1 but I do not know if we have it. The range of 91 RE 1 is 50 km. Looks like you mis spelt it as 50 m instead of 50 km. To the best of my knowledge even the Subroc had a range of something like 30 - 50 km

Anything that a sub launches will reveal its position. I suppose there is no option but for the sub to make a high speed dash away form danger

Kersi

bmallick · Post by **bmallick** » 29 Jun 2011 09:26

Kersi D wrote: The Klub family also has a sub launched anti-sub missiles 91 RE1 but I do not know if we have it. The range of 91 RE 1 is 50 km. Looks like you mis spelt it as 50 m instead of 50 km. To the best of my knowledge even the Subroc had a range of something like 30 - 50 km
Anything that a sub launches will reveal its position. I suppose there is no option but for the sub to make a high speed dash away form danger

What John meant was that submarines would have to come to a depth of 50 m for launching a missile, more than that is not feasible with current tech levels. Where as a Torpedo can be launched from any depth. More over with modern swim out torpedo's or water ram tech, torpedo launches are far far quieter than a missile launch. Also some of the heavy torpedoes do have 50 km + range and good speed.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 29 Jun 2011 10:40

bmallick wrote:
Kersi D wrote: The Klub family also has a sub launched anti-sub missiles 91 RE1 but I do not know if we have it. The range of 91 RE 1 is 50 km. Looks like you mis spelt it as 50 m instead of 50 km. To the best of my knowledge even the Subroc had a range of something like 30 - 50 km
Anything that a sub launches will reveal its position. I suppose there is no option but for the sub to make a high speed dash away form danger
What John meant was that submarines would have to come to a depth of 50 m for launching a missile, more than that is not feasible with current tech levels. Where as a Torpedo can be launched from any depth. More over with modern swim out torpedo's or water ram tech, torpedo launches are far far quieter than a missile launch. Also some of the heavy torpedoes do have 50 km + range and good speed.

I "read" range instaed of depth.

Even a torpedo is launched form as shallow depth as possible. Greater the depth, greater the amount of compressed air required to launch the torpedo. I do not know if swim out type torpedoes have the same constraints.

The range of a torpedo, at various speeds, is something that no navy would reveal. But Mk 48 ADCAPS are credited with a range of "several tens of kms".

Kersi

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 29 Jun 2011 17:07

More than range and speed it is endurance of an anti-sub torpedo that matters.The Europeans,French I think ,are developing a torpedo that has several hours of endurance so that even if countermeasures trick it,it circles again and again for hours until a hit is finally achieved.Ranges of 40-50km for anti-sub torpedos has been often mentioned.The advantage of the Klub anti-sub missile,is that it can be tube-launched undetected out of range of an enemy sub's sonar and the missile once it surfaces and is airborne, will release its warhead,a lt.-weight torpedo, at very close range's to the target giving it less time to react than an approaching torpedo launched from a sub at long range.The same Klub ASW missile can also be launched from tubes on a surface ship like our Rajputs or Delhis.
They key factor of course is sonar capability and which sub detects the other first.With NCW,an enemy sub could be detected by a different asset,say a SOSUS grid,real-time data sent to a sub through sat/VLF/whatever,which would then launch a Klub missile.

Sub-launched Brahmos is meant for use against surface ships and land targets.Its speed again gives the enemy little time to react.Some contemporary western anti-missile radar systems supposedly have a range of detection of 30km for supersonic missiles (Sunburn?) and 20km for sea-skimming subsonic missiles.The kinetic power of the missile makes it even more lethal than any subsonic misssile.Decades ago,US studies showed that one required about 2-3 hits of a Harpoon missile to sink a Kashin class DDG.Smaller warships could be disabled with just 1-2 missiles,but several hits were required to sink or disable a carrier.True,just one torpedo below the keel could sink a warship,but a 300+km range missile is far more lethal than a 40km range torpedo travelling at 50kts+.Equipped also with Klubs and anti-sub torpedos,a 2500-3000t+ conventional AIP sub would be a very dangerous adversary.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 29 Jun 2011 17:16

Kiwi Prime Minister visits Naval Dockyard in Mumbai

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Jun 2011 17:34

part of the issue is that france has developed a surface launched turbojet MM40 block3 exocet (18ft 6in) but nothing comparable for the much shorter ranged AM39 exocet which our scorpene will be armed with. you can see the diff in size here. accomodating a MM40 sized weapon in a weapons room designed for 6m long torpedoes is easy, but the sub launched versions is AWOL MIA.

http://www.vectorsite.net/twbomb_10_08.png

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 29 Jun 2011 17:42

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Jun 2011 17:45

well?

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 29 Jun 2011 18:21

Gd check the pic that I think is an IN 29K carrying the newer model kh38s with folded wings those are in development for pak fa internal carriage didn't know the k's had them.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 30 Jun 2011 06:49

Indian navy considering Northrop's MQ-4C BAMS

Northrop Grumman is pitching its MQ-4C Broad Area Maritime Surveillance (BAMS) unmanned aircraft system to the Indian navy.

Earlier this year the company responded to an Indian request for information for a high-altitude, long-endurance UAS issued in October 2010, said an industry source.

In US Navy service BAMS is planned to work closely with the Boeing P-8A Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft. At a seminar about BAMS hosted by Northrop for members of the Indian military, possible co-operation between BAMS and the Indian navy's future P-8I aircraft was a point of discussion.

India's first of eight P-8Is recently entered final assembly at Boeing's Renton factory. The company has also proposed a variant of the 737-based P-8I for India's medium-range maritime reconnaissance aircraft requirement.

New Delhi is increasingly turning to unmanned systems to patrol its vast ocean frontiers, which include the Arabian Sea, Indian Ocean and Bay of Bengal. In January the Indian navy stood up its second UAS squadron, which will operate Israel Aerospace Industries-supplied Herons and Searcher IIs over the northern Arabian Sea.

In March, Israeli sources told Flightglobal that India's navy has operational requirements for additional systems made by IAI, potentially including improved Heron or Heron TP systems carrying maritime sensor payloads. Evaluations using some systems have already been carried out.

Northrop plans to roll out the first MQ-4C in early 2012, with the first flight to occur around the middle of the same year.

One stumbling block in a potential BAMS sale to India could be the international Missile Technology Control Regime, although India is not a signatory.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 30 Jun 2011 08:53

chackojoseph wrote:Kiwi Prime Minister visits Naval Dockyard in Mumbai

Bet Adm. Verma (Retd.) had a big role to play here.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 30 Jun 2011 09:19

Nikhil T wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:Kiwi Prime Minister visits Naval Dockyard in Mumbai
Bet Adm. Verma (Retd.) had a big role to play here.

Yeah,

The Western and Southern Command are in the thick of Piracy control.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 30 Jun 2011 09:49

Westland, Sikorsky join navy’s copter bid

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 30 Jun 2011 15:37

India to get anti-submarine torpedoes from US

NEW DELHI: India will get lightweight anti-submarines torpedoes to arm the eight P-8I maritime patrol aircraft it is buying from the US, with the Obama administration notifying the potential sale to the US Congress on Tuesday.

The news was welcomed by the US embassy in New Delhi, which said the sale of Mk-54 torpedoes reflects the mutual benefits of the India-US security relationship.

The Pentagon has "officially notified" the potential sale of Mk-54 lightweight torpedoes to the Indian Navy.

The Mk-54 is the most advanced lightweight torpedo in the US Navy inventory and is intended to be employed with the P-8I maritime patrol aircraft, eight of which are currently under construction for India by US aerospace major Boeing.

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 01 Jul 2011 06:50

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 057089.cms

NEW DELHI: With Russia holding that the crash of a MiG-29K in Astrakhan region on June 23, which killed two pilots, was not due to any technical defect, India does not plan to ground its fleet of these naval fighters.

"We have got feedback from Russia (MiG Corporation) that the crash was due to 'pilot error'," said Navy chief Admiral Nirmal Verma.

The Russian pilots were apparently taking the MiG-29K, which was a twin-seater trainer version of the fighter, through some high-speed intricate combat manoeuvres at a height much lower than what was needed and could not pull out of a dive in time.

The Navy has already inducted 11 of the 45 MiG-29K fighters ordered from Russia for over $2 billion, with pilots beginning training on them at Goa ahead of the delivery of the 44,570-tonne INS Vikramaditya or the refitted Admiral Gorshkov in early-2013.

Question is, do all the serial production fighter jets go through a standard test procedure before delivery or it is pretty much up to the pilots to "play" with the toy?

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 01 Jul 2011 07:02

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 057275.cms

NEW DELHI: India will procure 80 fast-interception craft (FICs) or high-speed patrol boats from a Sri Lanka-based ship manufacturer to equip the new Sagar Prahari Bal (SPB) being raised by Navy in the aftermath of the 26/11 terror attacks in Mumbai.

Defence ministry officials on Thursday said the Sri Lanka-based SOLAS Marine has been selected after a global tender and the around Rs 300-crore contract will be inked soon. "The delivery of the FICs should be completed in three years," said an official. ...

Jhingos are making noise on purchasing it from Lanka..... but I believe it is a sound decision to make SL a key regional ally ..

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 01 Jul 2011 07:18

prithvi wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 057089.cms

The Navy has already inducted 11 of the 45 MiG-29K fighters ordered from Russia

Fact?

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 01 Jul 2011 08:15

prithvi wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 057089.cms

NEW DELHI: With Russia holding that the crash of a MiG-29K in Astrakhan region on June 23, which killed two pilots, was not due to any technical defect, India does not plan to ground its fleet of these naval fighters.

"We have got feedback from Russia (MiG Corporation) that the crash was due to 'pilot error'," said Navy chief Admiral Nirmal Verma.

The Russian pilots were apparently taking the MiG-29K, which was a twin-seater trainer version of the fighter, through some high-speed intricate combat manoeuvres at a height much lower than what was needed and could not pull out of a dive in time.

The Navy has already inducted 11 of the 45 MiG-29K fighters ordered from Russia for over $2 billion, with pilots beginning training on them at Goa ahead of the delivery of the 44,570-tonne INS Vikramaditya or the refitted Admiral Gorshkov in early-2013.

Question is, do all the serial production fighter jets go through a standard test procedure before delivery or it is pretty much up to the pilots to "play" with the toy?

Prithvi, The a/c have to go through standard tests first and then they may play around with them before delivery.

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 01 Jul 2011 08:19

rajanb wrote:
prithvi wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 057089.cms

NEW DELHI: With Russia holding that the crash of a MiG-29K in Astrakhan region on June 23, which killed two pilots, was not due to any technical defect, India does not plan to ground its fleet of these naval fighters.

"We have got feedback from Russia (MiG Corporation) that the crash was due to 'pilot error'," said Navy chief Admiral Nirmal Verma.

The Russian pilots were apparently taking the MiG-29K, which was a twin-seater trainer version of the fighter, through some high-speed intricate combat manoeuvres at a height much lower than what was needed and could not pull out of a dive in time.

The Navy has already inducted 11 of the 45 MiG-29K fighters ordered from Russia for over $2 billion, with pilots beginning training on them at Goa ahead of the delivery of the 44,570-tonne INS Vikramaditya or the refitted Admiral Gorshkov in early-2013.

Question is, do all the serial production fighter jets go through a standard test procedure before delivery or it is pretty much up to the pilots to "play" with the toy?
Prithvi, The a/c have to go through standard tests first and then they may play around with them before delivery.

why should the test pilots subject the aircraft to unnecessary risky maneuvers before delivery? seems incredible...

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 01 Jul 2011 08:42

prithvi wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 057275.cms

Jhingos are making noise on purchasing it from Lanka..... but I believe it is a sound decision to make SL a key regional ally ..

These are not excatly high tech and Indian yards need to work on critical projects. There is not enough space for such activities.

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 01 Jul 2011 08:45

chackojoseph wrote:
prithvi wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 057275.cms

Jhingos are making noise on purchasing it from Lanka..... but I believe it is a sound decision to make SL a key regional ally ..
These are not excatly high tech and Indian yards need to work on critical projects. There is not enough space for such activities.

100% in agreement..

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Jul 2011 09:40

good idea. co-opt the industrial and trading elites of all neighbour states into our economic growth. similar orders should be given to BD as well if opportunity is there - for example they are strong in textiles. we could source textiles from them in part.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Jul 2011 09:58

prithvi wrote:why should the test pilots subject the aircraft to unnecessary risky maneuvers before delivery? seems incredible...

Thats their job , they are test pilot.

aniket · Post by **aniket** » 01 Jul 2011 10:28

Is it true that INS Jalashwa cannot be used in the event of a war ?
According to this site and supposedly the CAG the Indian Navy can only use this ship for humanitarian purposes.Are these rumors true ?
Can anyone shed any light on this ?
http://brutegorilla.blogspot.com/search ... 20Jalashva

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 01 Jul 2011 10:30

Singha wrote:good idea. co-opt the industrial and trading elites of all neighbour states into our economic growth. similar orders should be given to BD as well if opportunity is there - for example they are strong in textiles. we could source textiles from them in part.

Actually we should import many items from our neighboring countries, make them more dependent on Desh. their elite should made to realise the importance of maintaining a close relationship with us, else all their orders will be cancelled and their Assets in Desh frozen. Friendly face and a big stick above all a fat checkbook.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 01 Jul 2011 10:52

aniket wrote:Is it true that INS Jalashwa cannot be used in the event of a war ?
According to this site and supposedly the CAG the Indian Navy can only use this ship for humanitarian purposes.Are these rumors true ?
Can anyone shed any light on this ?
http://brutegorilla.blogspot.com/search ... 20Jalashva

You should ask the BruteGorilla

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Jul 2011 11:19

dr jeykl and mr hyde ?

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 01 Jul 2011 12:23

aniket wrote:Is it true that INS Jalashwa cannot be used in the event of a war ?
Can anyone shed any light on this ?

I don't think this is true, Desh agreed to some EUMA provisions at that time but nothing about "not to be used in war". If khan did not want us to use this for offensive use, why will they have sold USS Trenton with FOUR LCM-8 mechanized landing Crafts?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Jul 2011 12:35

http://www.thalesgroup.com/integratedmast/

thales-netherland (formerly signaal) has a long history with IN. they have this interesting concept of a single integrated mast housing all sensors that are tested together to check out interference and any other issue . they say are willing not just to use thales sensors but any third-party kit given by customer , install them and test them out.

sounds like what the doctor ordered for all our future IN ships, unless we have already worked out something from the P15A onwards.

ofcourse the large 3D search radar on rear mast is still likely to be there in IN ships , we (and EU) have not chosen to eliminate that unlike the usn.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 01 Jul 2011 12:58

^^^^ IMO, IN perfected this art already and that too with Russian + western + Indian kits.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 01 Jul 2011 13:25

Prithvi, The a/c have to go through standard tests first and then they may play around with them before delivery.

why should the test pilots subject the aircraft to unnecessary risky maneuvers before delivery? seems incredible..

Prithvi. Risky is a relative term. They have to test the a/c to its limits. That way they know that the assembly/manufacture/overhaul/upgrade is upto standards accepted for that a/c. Rather than have a combat pilot(s) face problems.

That is a test pilots job.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Jul 2011 14:04

India to get Russian Nerpa submarine by yearend

Russia will transfer the K-152 Nerpa attack submarine to India on a 10-year lease by the end of 2011, Navy commander Adm. Vladimir Vysotsky said on Friday.

"We will hand this submarine to the client by the year's end," Vysotsky said and emphasized that the Indian crew is completely trained to operate the submarine.

The lease contract, estimated at some $900 million, was drawn up after an agreement between Moscow and New Delhi in January 2004, in which India agreed to fund part of the Nerpa's construction.

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 01 Jul 2011 14:07

prithvi wrote: 100% in agreement..

If we do it our self,we can generate more employment at our end

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 01 Jul 2011 15:08

Pilots can't resist the thrill of doing some stunt flying.We've seen several crashes at air shows,the superb performance of a Russian zero-zero ejector seat at Paris a few years ago (!) and even a few decades ago,the unfortunate crash and death of the pilot,a WC if I'm not mistaken at the IAF's air show,flying an M-2000 bcause he performed a manouevre flying too low.The best example is that of Sanjay Gandhi and his Pitts aircraft.I was reading a recent AWST about flying displays in the US ,where the finest stunt flyers take part and the tragic deaths of some of them ,soem at these very air shows.