Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Jul 2011 00:09

Shrinivasan wrote:Jamwal, please drop the saar please...
If the controls panels are like what is shown in the picture, it should offer phenomenal use handling... this is afterall meant to be a division level asset and hence offer phenomenal firepower. I think more details will tumble out soon..
I would imagine there would be plenty of commonality with Brahmos launcher (even though Prahaar launcher looks larger). I am still researching this further today!!!
BTB, i have posted another picture which is sharper!!!

Holding will be Corps level and higher...not Division level.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 04 Jul 2011 00:19

I just noticed an interesting point in Shri Saraswat's statement

The road-mobile system could be pulled out for quick deployment with each launcher carrying six missiles. “With different types of warheads, you can have different types of missiles from the same launcher” he added.

Having different missiles or even different warheads in one launcher would be a great force-multiplier. I wonder how reloads would be accomplished for such a missile system?

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 04 Jul 2011 00:23

rohitvats wrote:
Shrinivasan wrote:...this is afterall meant to be a division level asset and hence offer phenomenal firepower.
Holding will be Corps level and higher...not Division level.

Rohit,
Currently Brahmos is a Division level Asset, held by both 40th Arty and 41st Arty (originally inducted into the HQ Command) - This I figured out from the formation sign on Brahmos Launchers in RD Parade and elsewhere (Public Domain knowledge). Hence i figured out a lower range, tactical missile would also be at divisional level!!!
I would like your opinion on this though?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Jul 2011 00:47

Shrinivasan wrote: Rohit,
Currently Brahmos is a Division level Asset, held by both 40th Arty and 41st Arty (originally inducted into the HQ Command) - This I figured out from the formation sign on Brahmos Launchers in RD Parade and elsewhere (Public Domain knowledge). Hence i figured out a lower range, tactical missile would also be at divisional level!!!
I would like your opinion on this though?

Division level asset would mean that the missile/any other weapon system is deployed and used at the discretion of Division in support of its objectives. Here, what I mean by a Division is an Infantry/Armored Division. A system with 40th/41st Arty Division will be deployed as per overall objectives of their respective Corps HQ. Also, missile regiments/groups with these Arty Divisions may well be repository for the respective Command HQ..makes organization and administration easier. So, Corps HQ may not have control over all the assets... some of them may be deployed as per Command HQ directive to support other formations under the Command (apart from Corps HQ controlling these Arty Divisions).

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 04 Jul 2011 02:12

Shrinivasan wrote:
Karan M wrote:I think this started before that as a separate pinaka-follow on project. The AAD land strike version was mentioned in some reports as ashwin?
Karan M, dunno what is MR Chorgupta's Takleef with you and me, he has singled out our name in his Prahaar article about us saying something about Nirbhay? do you know what it is? i think, he is not exactly happy about me calling him Chorgupta?!?

Because he is a joker, fooling people with his claims and predictions, all based on coming to internet forums which he combines with publicity materials from trade shows to make impressive sounding bunkum articles.

Most of us can see it is bunkum (when I have time, I will show how exactly he makes up stuff) and laugh at him.

So all the poor fellow can do is gnash his dentures at us on his blog, the only place on the internet where he can delete all the comments that laugh at him or poke holes in his absurd claims. Also, he is a total chor. Taking other people's pictures, materials, passing it as his own and then at last moment, saying ok i give you credit.

Most absurd statements of Sengupta total upto never ending list, I just remember a few from past few discussions on the net, where everyone was laughing at him..

- LCA MK1 has 2052 AESA (it does not, it has mechanical MMR)
- T-90 in Indian service is full of secret Merkava technology plus this gizmo, that gizmo (it isnt)
- DRDO AEW&C uses modified L Band Rajendra radar (idiot copied L band from Phalcon, thought ESA = AESA, when Rajendra is passive) and later quickly changed it to some other copy paste stuff from other AESAs later to pretend otherwise
- Su-30 MKI has TIDLS (actually Gripen has it), it can share ESM info from radar etc (this is copied word to word from Bill Sweetmans work on radar samvarkan -data sharing from a SAAB talk which he surmised may be present one day on Gripen), then he said it has Fiber Optics bus, sharing high speed data blah blah for PGM etc - actually this was copied from F/A-18 E/F article on growth map.

Chor Gupta is a joker. Its very hard to take his "con"-clusions seriously and without laughing. He lies so much and all the time, just to gain some attention. He could be much better if he stopped pretending to know everything, did not make up stuff and just stuck to limited amounts he finds out. But in his desire for popularity, he becomes a big joker

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Jul 2011 02:32

^^^And he has this irritating tendency to mention/drop important sounding acronyms and then give couple of lines of explanation on it and the full form....also, tends to fly tangentially on every topic he is writing on with, imo, express intent to show how much he knows! His article in F-Mag are quite irritating.....most of the times, they have more jargon then the actual content or analysis.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 04 Jul 2011 02:48

Its all a method to pretend that he is very aware and understands the technical stuff very well. He also name drops when people, even the poor guys who believe some of what he says, start asking questions which he cannot logically answer. The exact aim is as you note "express intent to show how much he knows" - as versus sharing informative information or doing analysis. His articles in F-Mag are full of fibs and jargon - analysis would actually have him try to understand the topic instead of copy paste.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Jul 2011 03:40

Good news.One was worried about the PRC's unguided MBRL with a range greater than Smerch,well over 100km,which could also find its way eventually into Paki hands.Our new tactical counter is on the other hand a missile, with far greater accuracy than an MBRL round.The interesting note is that it will be a three-service missile.One looks forward to seeing details of the variants in the future.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Jul 2011 05:31

jamwal wrote:
And now that you've come forward and rightfully claimed the photo-credit, it is hereby humbly acknowledged and appreciated.

And the thief said - now that you have shown that what I stole is yours I suddenly come over all humble and all.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 04 Jul 2011 07:23

rohitvats wrote: Division level asset would mean that the missile/any other weapon system is deployed and used at the discretion of Division in support of its objectives. Here, what I mean by a Division is an Infantry/Armored Division. A system with 40th/41st Arty Division will be deployed as per overall objectives of their respective Corps HQ. Also, missile regiments/groups with these Arty Divisions may well be repository for the respective Command HQ..makes organization and administration easier. So, Corps HQ may not have control over all the assets... some of them may be deployed as per Command HQ directive to support other formations under the Command (apart from Corps HQ controlling these Arty Divisions).

Rohit, you are the master... I have to bow to your superior knowledge... Prahaar and Brahmos might be held at division level but controlled from Corps HQ or higher echelons.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 04 Jul 2011 07:32

Guys, it looks like the picture posted by my Chor might not be Prahaar!?! The picture (if seen from different angles) shows only 3 tubes and not six as claimed by Shri Sarasvat. The three tubes might mean a launcher for Nirbhay or some other missile (this is the same format used by Bhrahmos launcher which is also developed by L&T).
There are two missile in the lower level (when in horizontal posn) and one above (in between the 2 missiles below) in sort of a triangular configuration.
seen from one angle it looks like there are 3 missiles in row and hence extrapolated as six missiles, but if seen from another angles,
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_8gXQngrI7x8/S ... 010807.jpg
it is not the case.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 04 Jul 2011 08:19

Once upon a time moi went to def expo 2010. Moi did not miss that particular stall naturally nor that particular display. Moi was told it is a GLCMmmmmm laaaaancher ( laaang range) and that birdieeees have been told naaat to talk much about it.

By the way fellow birathers, L&T is set to get a huge order from the military for MBRLs and such like.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Jul 2011 08:56

the TEL in the pic is not a high-mobility tatra type thing. its more like the A2 or old DF31 vehicles - which is fine for them given their long range but not so fine for a 150km weapon.

I hope they use the brahmos 8x8 which BEML already assembles under license. these tatras can go just about anywhere as youtube videos show.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Jul 2011 09:18

Shrinivasan wrote: <SNIP>Rohit, you are the master... I have to bow to your superior knowledge... Prahaar and Brahmos might be held at division level but controlled from Corps HQ or higher echelons.

Please, not to be embarrasing this abdul by these statements...

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Jul 2011 09:27

Thanks shrini.. nice pics.. anymore info on the missile system?
- guidance type
- cruise speed
- payload
tia

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 04 Jul 2011 09:50

The drivers area kind of looks weird looking , or is it attached to the rear part before launching?

vishnu.nv · Post by **vishnu.nv** » 04 Jul 2011 10:03

Prediction: Slim, short, made from Shourya technology, Non Nuclear Mijjile.....

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Jul 2011 10:13

Dr. Saraswat said that at present the services did not have a weapon such as Prahaar. The missile would be equipped with omni-directional warheads and could be used for hitting both tactical and strategic targets. The road-mobile system could be pulled out for quick deployment with each launcher carrying six missiles. “With different types of warheads, you can have different types of missiles from the same launcher,” he added.

now we have to tune [ears] our radars for all the types.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Jul 2011 10:15

comparing to diameter of truck tire the weapon is around 25ft long. maybe there will be two weapons from same tube of 150km and 300km differing in propulsion section only. the warhead will be quite meaty imo arnd 1t and voluminous for holding large nos of light submunitions.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Jul 2011 10:27

how about multiple guided warheads in a single prahaar? so, a factor 6 launches of it could neutralize a squadron of al-tanks. Also, thinking if multiple top attack nag warheads can be packed into them..?

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 04 Jul 2011 10:31

How useful will this new 150 Km missile be in the China context?

vishnu.nv · Post by **vishnu.nv** » 04 Jul 2011 10:50

csharma wrote:How useful will this new 150 Km missile be in the China context?

Quite use full in the sense it would be a battle field missile which can be used to take out their artillery and command nodes with precision. Launching prithvi's may require the approval from higher authorities even if it is conventional. Prahar being a short ranged missile can be used in abundance. In short, Prahar will in fact do the work of a cheap short range supersonic cruise missile.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 04 Jul 2011 10:58

Now we need the Prahaar to be configured in air-to-ground and air-to-ship roles.

Russia is unlikely to cooperate vis-a-vis Brahmos air launch. In any case Brahmos is rather large and heavy.

Another priority is an MMW seeker, needed for operations in bad weather conditions.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 04 Jul 2011 11:47

From the initial info on range , it seems to be positioned right between Pinaka and Brahmos and that should give a good idea about it's purpose. Brahmos is a missile used to target high value targets like Ships, oil depots, ammunition depots or specific residential area among a clutter , perhaps Prahar is a more conventional and cheaper ground pounder as Brahmos unit is very expensive to use against ALG's, terror camps, local command HQ , advancing armour etc.

Since Brahmos is not a viable weapon system for used against a variety of ground targets in large numbers , so maybe that task will be handed over Prahar (short range) and Nirbhay (long range). Of course, we'll have to wait until the actual test to find out several other aspects such as the it's trajectory (terrain hugging V/s high altitude) , Speed ( Mach ???) etc before getting to know it's battlefield purpose.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 04 Jul 2011 12:28

D Roy wrote:Once upon a time moi went to def expo 2010. Moi did not miss that particular stall naturally nor that particular display. Moi was told it is a GLCMmmmmm laaaaancher ( laaang range) and that birdieeees have been told naaat to talk much about it.
By the way fellow birathers, L&T is set to get a huge order from the military for MBRLs and such like.

So do you think that picture could be the Prahaar TEL? i think this is not the Prahaar TEL and it should be something similar to the Brahmos TEL.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 04 Jul 2011 12:41

No I don't think so.

The post clearly notes that moi was told that it is meant to serve as a carrier for a future ground launched cruise missile (long range).

The size and nature of the TEL vehicle certainly seems to support that view.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 04 Jul 2011 12:46

D Roy wrote:No I don't think so.

So you think it is not for Prahaar? Correct?

D Roy wrote: The post clearly notes that moi was told that it is meant to serve as a carrier for a future ground launched cruise missile (long range).
The size and nature of the TEL vehicle certainly seems to support that view.

This TEL is probably for launching a Nirbhay type LR Cruise Missile, correct?

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 04 Jul 2011 13:34

No I don't think so.

So you think it is not for Prahaar? Correct?

I do not think it is for Prahaar.

This TEL is probably for launching a Nirbhay type LR Cruise Missile, correct?

It is meant for a future LR-GLCM. beyond that draw your own conclusions.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 04 Jul 2011 13:35

D Roy wrote:It is meant for a future LR-GLCM. beyond that draw your own conclusions.

Shukriya...thanks for the confirmation...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Jul 2011 15:06

what we can expect is something modelled on the now-retired Tomahawk GLCM launcher. the BGM109A was 18ft long and 1.7ft diameter ... about 4 feet longer than the SLCM version.

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/cru ... nd-air.jpg
http://6wsq5oy.devhub.com/img/upload/tokjh.jpg
http://steeljawscribe.com/wordpress/wp- ... glcm_5.jpg

there are benefits to having a common vehicle and tubes for prahaar, prahaar-300, prahaar-500 and nirbhay .. not just in easier logisitics but making it hard for the enemy to guess through photos and spies which unit is tactical and which strategic or the exact matrix of each unit. each unit should be hybrid that can fire anything.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 04 Jul 2011 15:19

by the way the Gryphon was very much a high mobility system. and it brought the soviets to the negotiating table on the Pioneer.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 04 Jul 2011 16:14

BrahMos air variant to be tested before 2012 end: Pillai

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Jul 2011 18:37

Yes,there seems to be a strong need for a tactical missile other than the SR version of Prithvi that can be launched in quick salvoes in a fast moving battlefront,especially against armoured formations that could be used by a divisional commander as Shrini said,not requiring prior Corps approval.The assets with Corps HQ could well include tactical missiles with N-warheads,especially as Pak has shaken in our faces its latest Hatf missile.The current Paki doctrine is to use short-ranged tactical N-missiles like Hatf to stop any deep Indian thrust into Paki territory,threatening to cut the country into two.This would be one level below a full-scale nuclear attack against Indian military bases and major cities.Pak hopes that it can thus save the situ by limiting the use of N-weapons to the battlefield only.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Jul 2011 18:47

to achieve the shakinah effect in tactical sense we have to budget for 500 missiles launched at logistical, C3I and armour concentration targets within first 6 hrs of a conflict. against Pak, probably through in another 500 at industrial (power , steel) and OFB/base wkshop targets since Indo-Pak wars tend to be short...might as well launch a devastating 100 hour strike and then talk and resume the tea ceremony....put them back by 10 yrs and then appear magnanimous and occupy moral high ground by offering talks.

so the only way is cheap x quantity.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 04 Jul 2011 19:08

The good thing about India missile program is it's comprehensive portfolio of products with much overlap and the will to tinker with ideas to create new and innovative products. Much like what the USA and soviet union did with aircrafts during 1950s/60s/70s i.e. nurturing a multitude of projects and then letting the fittest survive. It would be awesome if we could repeat the same with aircraft development.

Cheers....

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Jul 2011 19:21

shukla wrote:BrahMos air variant to be tested before 2012 end: Pillai

it would be nice to have the hypersonic version of reusable missile systems, but I think UCAVs take more precedence than this. no?

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 04 Jul 2011 23:09

Shrinivasan wrote: So do you think that picture could be the Prahaar TEL? i think this is not the Prahaar TEL and it should be something similar to the Brahmos TEL.

Another reason (besides the 3 missiles, as opposed to 6) is that this TEL does not have a design which looks capable of launching 6 missiles with a 2 - 4 minute response time (as mentioned by Shri Saraswat). My guess is that the TEL will have an Akash or Pinaka look, with missiles in an inclined launcher and ready to fire mode. In a vertical launch TEL, it will take several minutes to just get the missiles in the right position for firing. Plus it will not be able to do so from any terrain (slopes etc), while an inclined launcher on a moving platform can stop and fire within a few minutes.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 05 Jul 2011 00:44

Prem Kumar wrote:Another reason (besides the 3 missiles, as opposed to 6) is that this TEL does not have a design which looks capable of launching 6 missiles with a 2 - 4 minute response time (as mentioned by Shri Saraswat).

Six Missiles per TEL would pack a lot of punch, quick reloads would be the icing on the cake.

Prem Kumar wrote: My guess is that the TEL will have an Akash or Pinaka look, with missiles in an inclined launcher and ready to fire mode. In a vertical launch TEL, it will take several minutes to just get the missiles in the right position for firing. Plus it will not be able to do so from any terrain (slopes etc), while an inclined launcher on a moving platform can stop and fire within a few minutes.

VL cannister based missiles can come to firing posn pretty quickly, Desh would have identified hundreds of pre-prepared locations to be used as launch sites... Take a look at coordinates 20°7'9.7532''N 73°44'16.4818''E, this is Radar Stn at Borghad near Nashik, there is also a Missile detachment nearby, see how many prepared sites are there in just one road. VL TELs can be quickly brought to bear in a prepared site and missiles launched. Reloads are also quick with cannisterized missiles. Akash style launches are good for small missiles, even for this DRDO would move to a cannisterised version with VL like in SPYDER system.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 05 Jul 2011 02:39

might have missed it but is there any news of the Short Range SAM, Maitri, being developed with French collaboration?

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 05 Jul 2011 05:39

Chaiwallah info on Prahaar.

8 pahiye ki gaadi jisme CTIS hain. Mijjile kanastari dibbe mai hai, Pinakha jaise hi bharat petroleum lubricant (servo) se track hoti hai, par dibba pura seedha bhi ho sakta hai. 150 ki naaminal raange hai jo uske udne ke kon aur disha se nirdharit hoti hai. Mijjile bahut sasti hai aur banane ki kshamata kaafi jyada hogi. loading system puri tarah swayam chaalit hogi.