Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 06 Jul 2011 09:16

So, the final count is 248-MK1 and 248-MK2. Good. That is ~8 Regiments.....not bad at all. Time to have 3 Arjun only Armored Brigades!!!

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 06 Jul 2011 09:20

rajanb wrote:A question for the gurus, please.

With the Arjun being a heavyweight, would the T72's be our mainstay in the mountains facing China?

Of the two sectors facing China, the issue with the northern one is only to get the tank into the sector and final operating area. Otherwise, the whole thing is flat as a pancake. T-72 or Arjun would not make any difference. With C-17 and upgraded ALG at Nyoma, I don't see what could prevent an Arjun from being inducted into the area. In fact, Arjun can serve the same role as western heavies against Soviet armored hordes....hunker down and use superior armor and EO to take out the PLA.

nikhilarora · Post by **nikhilarora** » 06 Jul 2011 09:24

Hi,

Heres a bit more informative news article for the 248 Arjun Mk II orders placed.

http://worldofdefense.blogspot.com/2011 ... dable.html

Its interesting to note that "The defence research establishment expects to get the new orders from the end user - the Army - once the current trials conclude". A bit sooner, but LUNGI Dance, yippeeeeee....

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 06 Jul 2011 09:36

time is not yet ripe for lifting our lungis, this seems to be DRDO officials wishlist kind of thing(though the directive to OFB is signs of light), it is not coming from the IA. We can lift it up whne the announcement comes from the IA or the RMantralay

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 06 Jul 2011 09:38

--DELETED--

srai · Post by **srai** » 06 Jul 2011 10:22

rohitvats wrote:So, the final count is 248-MK1 and 248-MK2. Good. That is ~8 Regiments.....not bad at all. Time to have 3 Arjun only Armored Brigades!!!

I think it's 124 MK1 + 372 MK2 (124 MK2 + 248 MK2) = 496 Arjun MBTs. Apparently according to Chacko J, the second order of 124MK1 were converted into MK2 as the order was placed too late (i.e. requires a lead time of 2.5 years before production can begin delivering new tanks) and the MK2 would be ready by then.

Now with the second order of 248 MK2 imminent it is likely production capacity will be increased at HVF. I would think the production capacity would be doubled progressively to around 100 units/year from the current 50 units/year.

IMO, another 248+ Arjun MK3 order will be likely around 2018 timeframe before FMBT completes R&D post 2020 (with FMBT's service entry date around 2025 at the earliest).

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 06 Jul 2011 10:43

rohitvats wrote:So, the final count is 248-MK1 and 248-MK2. Good. That is ~8 Regiments.....not bad at all. Time to have 3 Arjun only Armored Brigades!!!

Mooh Meh Shakkar... Arjuns in the Desert would be a Phenomenal force Multiplier vis-a-vis the Pukes... If we are inducting this many Arjuns and positioning them very near the border, we might even make Cold Start Redundant... what the heck... Cold Start has browed so many shalwars... let us keep that tooo apart from Sundarji's doctrine of cutting open the pigs at their belly!!!

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 06 Jul 2011 10:46

suryag wrote:time is not yet ripe for lifting our lungis, this seems to be DRDO officials wishlist kind of thing(though the directive to OFB is signs of light), it is not coming from the IA. We can lift it up whne the announcement comes from the IA or the RMantralay

Directive has come from the Raksha Matralay onlee... not an order though.. see statement below

The Ordnance Factory Board has been instructed by the ministry of defence to initiate action for the procurement of the Mark-II version," P. Sivakumar, director, Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment, told the Economic Times.

Where is the lungi dance icon?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Jul 2011 11:08

I am happy, but I am keeping my fingers crossed for soon not to hear:

Army to replace all the T72 tanks with 3000 T95s++ tanks.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jul 2011 11:25

by hook or crook all arjun regiments must operate in ladakhi desert and north sikkim as part of the new formations being raised. rather than limited areas of the Thar desert, these cold high deserts are ideal for large scale war of movement and armour...zero population density, so no issues with urban fighting....very few if any major rivers to obstruct movement (certainly nothing big like the punjab rivers)...we better test the thing in 0C - minus 30C conditions though rather than this constant fetish with 45C desert trials.

the t90/t72 is enough for pak frontier.

putting arjun on pak frontier is like wasting best asset on yesterday's threat...

I am thinking one full mech div for nubra-DBG region, one mech div for pangong tso area, and one for demchok region and likewise 2 mech divs for north sikkim, all with arjun and every missile , IFV and tube gun we can gather.

stop at the tsangpo but not before.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 06 Jul 2011 12:08

Singha wrote:by hook or crook all arjun regiments must operate in ladakhi desert and north sikkim as part of the new formations being raised.
I am thinking one full mech div for nubra-DBG region, one mech div for pangong tso area, and one for demchok region and likewise 2 mech divs for north sikkim, all with arjun and every missile , IFV and tube gun we can gather.

Ladakh would be a good place to deploy an Arjun Brigade. I think they can be driven thru the newly widened road. I am not sure if a heavy tank like Arjun would be suitable for Sikkim sector?
We SDREs should learn to dream big...Singha is leading the way. We have added 2 mountain division in quick-time, may Singha's wishes come true for a mech division.

I would think, couple CI Ajeya regiments would also be based in the north east!!!

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 06 Jul 2011 13:45

Singha wrote:<SNIP> I am thinking one full mech div for nubra-DBG region, one mech div for pangong tso area, and one for demchok region and likewise 2 mech divs for north sikkim, all with arjun and every missile , IFV and tube gun we can gather.

stop at the tsangpo but not before.

DBO sector will not have enough space to park all the assets of a mech div, let along sustain it

. I doubt you can even move a squadron of tanks into the area. It is not tank country.But having some assets might be useful to strike out towards east.

IMO, Nubra can see deployment of Squadron+ level of armored/Mechanized assets.

Same for Pangon Tso.....though we did deploy tanks in this area in 1962. Though, a regiment worth will be handy to take on any PLA assault and any treat of armor/breakout from the Spanggur Gap area.

Demchok can do with (I) Armored Brigade. This is one area which is likely to be major axis of assault from PLA along the Indus. We need to move the other way as the shooting match starts.

Another thing - Mechanized Divisions are of use if their is scope of fast moving maneuver battle led by Armored Divisions. I don't think you have the space for maneuver here. The mountainous terrain means that the axis of advance from both parties will be limited and fighting will be concentrated in these area.....and Dhemchok sits at the mouth of one such funnel.....infact, IMO, the widest of all. IMO, what one will need is steel beasts of Arjun type.....blast anything the PLA throws to smithereens.

And this is where the vertical component becomes extremely important - just imagine if PLA land a battalion sized force on Chang La pass...the main route from Leh to Chusul/Pangong So is gone and an entire sector becomes cut-off. Or, what if they make a play for Khardung La and Thoise? The TSPA can put pressure on Siachen and Turtok from West and forces to east in DBO Complex comes under pressure from PLA. As it is, the logistic lines to DBO Complex from Leh are tenous. The whole of Ladakh Sector needs to be made into fortress. My biggest worry is about vertical envelopment......and I want to see proliferation of MANPADs like bird-seeds in the IA.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jul 2011 14:11

oerlikon skyshield AA. and a Spyder in each such vulnerable choke point.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jul 2011 15:19

btw rohit - we should be figuring out lay of land on chinese side of line and how they can or cannot hold on to that, not just trying to save what little we have or maintain status quo...we need to grab territory and not give it back - aksai chin is ours by right if not more.

this needs serious offensive power and lots of POL / aircover not just a well planned defense posture.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 06 Jul 2011 16:21

Singha wrote:btw rohit - we should be figuring out lay of land on chinese side of line and how they can or cannot hold on to that, not just trying to save what little we have or maintain status quo...we need to grab territory and not give it back - aksai chin is ours by right if not more.

this needs serious offensive power and lots of POL / aircover not just a well planned defense posture.

Do they have any center of gravity on their side? I don't think so.

The road that connects Xinjiang to Tibet is one artery which can be intercepted at two to three nodes and used to lateral movement...but apart from C3I Centers which will be set up by forward elements of controlling HQs....I don't think they have anything we equivalent of Leh.

That aside.....what we need to do is clearly define an objective. Preventing a PLA breakthrough and limited counter-attacks to throw PLA off-balance and achieve limited set of objectives could be one strategy. Other could be to define a line of advance which we can aim at and which we can defend comfortabily keeping the logistics issue in mind. This could be the borders as we define it with +/- to cater for favorable geography. The force structure will need to be accordingly catered.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jul 2011 16:47

> Do they have any center of gravity on their side? I don't think so.

thats better - their side is mostly 'open' with the karakoram highway running through it. they have few if any passes or funnels to channelize. we can move on wide fronts and many places. lacking any center of gravity they can only guess where we want to attack first.

imo our goal has to be take back the entire Aksai chin. as this is an area which was accepted by the UN under India formally until the chinese captured in 1962, there is no dharmic legal objection. one pincer can start moving north from demchok.

they have constructed the karakoram highway across this area, firmly believing it was theirs in perpetuity but we must change that.

new defensive fortifications, ALGs and lines can be constructed after their forces are routed and kicked out of our land.

likewise in the east, the dagger shaped portion of tibet wedged between sikkim and bhutan down to nathu-la should be captured and incorporated into sikkim to rationalize our defensive lines and remove this threat to the chicken neck area.

a limited airborne offensive from DBG area as launchpad should help the land offensive by targeting the highway N-S from Kashgar that moves into POK.
this would be a limited and temporary move just to cause mayhem and kick the pakis in the rear, before withdrawing in good order to link up with land columns in proper aksai chin at the halt of the war
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/SRR/Volum ... jiang1.jpg

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Jul 2011 16:53

We need easily air transportable light tanks too apart from MBTs.These will be able to traverse difficult terrain much better than heavy tanks.The logistic problem of maintaining tanks at that alt. needs to be carefully examined,especially as the PRC has the advantage of the superior terrain of the Tibetan plateau to establish bases and repair/depot facilities.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 06 Jul 2011 17:00

I am sure that the Rusi light tank will fit the bill.

Whats more the ammo will be common with the Tin cans.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jul 2011 17:04

well the BMP2s are light tankish and already in that region per natgeo mission army videos.

but we need heavy armour and missile / mlrs in quantity and supportive logistical tail to take on head to head PLA's finest in a meeting engagement.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 06 Jul 2011 17:06

I was talking of Sprut D

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 06 Jul 2011 17:14

Hey how did this development slip through.........

Tarmour

More importantly does it has the IAs approval. It it does then the IA is serious about heavy APC for the mounted Infantry.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Jul 2011 17:25

If one Arjun can equal 2 light weight tanks in all aspects of the war, then Arjun is the lightest tank in the world. Just take care of well keeping and logistical supply for this maha baby.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 06 Jul 2011 17:26

Might be some Tank-ex kind of exp

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Jul 2011 17:33

I think Arjun Mk2 will answer if you consider chor gupta stories to be true... But then if one thinks Aksai Chin is a terrain that Chinese have mastered with their tanks, then Arjun can beat the hell outta them.

nikhilarora · Post by **nikhilarora** » 06 Jul 2011 18:05

Singha wrote:> Do they have any center of gravity on their side? I don't think so.

thats better - their side is mostly 'open' with the karakoram highway running through it. they have few if any passes or funnels to channelize. we can move on wide fronts and many places. lacking any center of gravity they can only guess where we want to attack first.

imo our goal has to be take back the entire Aksai chin. as this is an area which was accepted by the UN under India formally until the chinese captured in 1962, there is no dharmic legal objection. one pincer can start moving north from demchok.

they have constructed the karakoram highway across this area, firmly believing it was theirs in perpetuity but we must change that.

new defensive fortifications, ALGs and lines can be constructed after their forces are routed and kicked out of our land.

likewise in the east, the dagger shaped portion of tibet wedged between sikkim and bhutan down to nathu-la should be captured and incorporated into sikkim to rationalize our defensive lines and remove this threat to the chicken neck area.

a limited airborne offensive from DBG area as launchpad should help the land offensive by targeting the highway N-S from Kashgar that moves into POK.
this would be a limited and temporary move just to cause mayhem and kick the pakis in the rear, before withdrawing in good order to link up with land columns in proper aksai chin at the halt of the war
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/SRR/Volum ... jiang1.jpg

Singha Sir,

Alas! I wish our dhoti shivering babus were listening to you. Sigh!

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 06 Jul 2011 18:16

Please look at the terrain of Aksai Chin using the terrain map feature of wikimapia before anyone thinks about doing a Manstein the area.

This will give you birds eye-view of Aksai-Chin:
http://wikimapia.org/#lat=35.3728147&lo ... beg%20oldi

Coordinated for Daulat Beg Oldi (DBO) - just south of Karakoram Pass:
http://wikimapia.org/#lat=35.3728147&lo ... beg%20oldi

See the area to west and east of DBO Complex; Shyok and glaciers (from where it originates) are to its west. The relatively flat areas are to its east across a belt of mountanous zone - a zone which is with Chinese. So, if the idea is to take Aksai Chin, not only first we will need to drive them back upto this belt but dislodge them from this belt - which commands all the valleys/flat areas between these mountains connecting western half with east. If we can do that, we can break out into flatter area and threaten G219: http://wikimapia.org/#lat=34.9602463&lo ... beg%20oldi

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 06 Jul 2011 20:00

Singha wrote: imo our goal has to be take back the entire Aksai chin. as this is an area which was accepted by the UN under India formally until the chinese captured in 1962, there is no dharmic legal objection. one pincer can start moving north from demchok.

they have constructed the karakoram highway across this area, firmly believing it was theirs in perpetuity but we must change that.

new defensive fortifications, ALGs and lines can be constructed after their forces are routed and kicked out of our land.

likewise in the east, the dagger shaped portion of tibet wedged between sikkim and bhutan down to nathu-la should be captured and incorporated into sikkim to rationalize our defensive lines and remove this threat to the chicken neck area.

a limited airborne offensive from DBG area as launchpad should help the land offensive by targeting the highway N-S from Kashgar that moves into POK.
this would be a limited and temporary move just to cause mayhem and kick the pakis in the rear, before withdrawing in good order to link up with land columns in proper aksai chin at the halt of the war
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/SRR/Volum ... jiang1.jpg

Singha: I wish I could vote you in as the Raksha Mantri

I am not sure we have, will have or plan to have the capacity to take on China in this manner. Many, many other things have to be in place before an offensive into Tibet is taken up - even if the military capacity has been built.

I believe any opportunity we get should be focused on one national goal. It is to reincorporate POK and Northern Areas back into India. This is one region that will be a fitting answer to both PRC and TSP and also solve many a geo-political issues for India.

One of my critiques of the IA is that its war machine is most optimized for a war in the plains, when our real opportunities and threats are in the mountains. Kargil was a missed opportunity in this regard.

So, If China attacks - defend the LAC and attack NA. If there is a Kargil like misadventure then do the same thing. If taking on the NA is too much then do it in parts, like attack Skardu and cut off the Karakoram. But an unwavering national goal with a clear purpose. I would like to go and see the K2 in my life time

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jul 2011 20:29

well I shall rant no further on this topic except to claim unscientifically that even though these terrain looks forbidding and hilly on paper (100,000ft view), being bone-dry, sandy or gravelly (not muddy) and no major rivers to ford, there would always be dried-up wadis and valleys for lines of armour and mech infantry to pour through and enter open country for the OMG phase of the campaign.

the operational details I shall leave to budding guderians, rommels and pattons - the lightning war of the north african desert and the sweeping campaigns of the russian steppe hold lessons in leadership , improvisation and daring that would no doubt have been studied, as also modern campaigns like the left hook in GW1 and the march through karbala gap in GW2 at night by american armour divs.

finally here is a map of the Beda fomm battle - a little village south of benghazi, wherein a daring mixed group of british and indians used goat tracks through the desert to take a shortcut and head off the retreating italians in operation compass. while the main road was blocked by light arty and infantry, mobile armoured car and matilta units crept up on the flanks of the italians strung out on the coast road through dry wadis. it is one of my favourite campaigns for study...you dont always need the heaviest stick to get the job done.
http://www.btinternet.com/~ian.a.paters ... le_map.jpg

to get our teeth into the soft steamed rice bun that is Tibet we need to build up the mountain strike corps into the frightening levels of Orbat a gentleman posted here for a american armour div and also retool and retask one of the 3 existing strike corps into a mountain strike corps based out either north sikkim or leh (a 2-3 yr process minimum from the go-ahead).

the chinese did a takiya over 2 decades and declared peace n tranquility in tibet to build their infra and we drew down our forces and forgot about the LAC. they pumped up pakis conventionally and nuclearly and encouraged terrorist rampage. being ready, now they nibble.
with pak in doldrums with Unkil using a cattle-prod cum toilet plunger daily on its rear orifice and uber-sikular chai biskoot peace and tranquility on Pak frontier, its time we turned the tables and confronted the lizard eye to eye - and looks like we are finally doing that.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 06 Jul 2011 21:30

btw, T-72 will have serious problems at that height because of engine power loss. I remember RayC telling me once how high alt adversely affected engine power, given that T-72 already has low PWR it will be worse off than T-90/arjun.

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 06 Jul 2011 22:23

If this news is true, it is wonderful. As I recall, the Arjun needs a production run of at least 500 tanks for the DRDO to financially break even on the project (in terms of all the investments made in the design/production). It's fantastic to see so many projects succeed or be on the verge of succeeding (Tejas, Arjun, Akash, Rohini, Arihant, etc.)

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 06 Jul 2011 22:47

Rahul M wrote:btw, T-72 will have serious problems at that height because of engine power loss. I remember RayC telling me once how high alt adversely affected engine power, given that T-72 already has low PWR it will be worse off than T-90/arjun.

Where is RarC????

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 06 Jul 2011 23:10

Rahul M wrote:btw, T-72 will have serious problems at that height because of engine power loss. I remember RayC telling me once how high alt adversely affected engine power, given that T-72 already has low PWR it will be worse off than T-90/arjun.

Please educate me on how T-72 would be affected more than 90/Arjun. The engines are almost similar right. I can understand from a level of protection though?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 06 Jul 2011 23:14

Shrinivasan wrote: Please educate me on how T-72 would be affected more than 90/Arjun. The engines are almost similar right. I can understand from a level of protection though?

The T-72 has a 780hp engine compared to the 1000hp engine of the T-90 and 1400hp of the Arjun. The Arjun has the highest p/w ratio of all three (despite being the heaviest). The T-72 has the lowest p/w ratio. The Arjun has lower ground pressure than the T-90 as well.
So any talk of "Arjun being not suitable" in Ladakh and other areas is only true so far as aerial mobility is concerned, since the Il-76 cannot carry it. (AFAIK, the Il-76 cannot carry the T-90 either, only the T-72). This will be rectified when we get the C-17s which are curiously hated on this forum by the T-90 lovers. Wonder why.

As far as ground transportation is concerned, I believe the Arjun can be deployed in any place where the T-72/90 can.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 07 Jul 2011 00:22

Sorry for posing a question in chackoji's corner. My question is why not produce the Tank-ex instead of trying to piecemeal upgrade the T-72? If the Mig-21 is a widowmaker wonder what a useless bucket of bolts like the T-72 should be named?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Jul 2011 02:36

Whatever type we induct in the mountains,the key to their success will be the logistic support.If tanks are to be permaently based there (lLadakh),then it would require permanent support too! One can't be flying them up and down on joyrides everytime there is a technical problem!

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 07 Jul 2011 04:22

nachiket wrote:
Shrinivasan wrote: Please educate me on how T-72 would be affected more than 90/Arjun. The engines are almost similar right. I can understand from a level of protection though?
The T-72 has a 780hp engine compared to the 1000hp engine of the T-90 and 1400hp of the Arjun. The Arjun has the highest p/w ratio of all three (despite being the heaviest). The T-72 has the lowest p/w ratio. The Arjun has lower ground pressure than the T-90 as well.

Nachiket, I am aware of the p/w ratio...I was enquiring about the "power loss" part... Actually Arjun can be driven all the way to Leh (on rail and truck based flat bed carriers)

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 Jul 2011 05:26

engine power decreases due to lack of oxygen, while this affects all engines, the performance of vehicles with low PWR will be affected the most.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 07 Jul 2011 05:53

Rahul M wrote:engine power decreases due to lack of oxygen, while this affects all engines, the performance of vehicles with low PWR will be affected the most.

Got it thanks... which is probably they widened the road to Leh to be able to transport MBTs. With CI Ajeya sporting a higher powered engine, make a difference in performance.

vina · Post by **vina** » 07 Jul 2011 05:57

Rahul M wrote:btw, T-72 will have serious problems at that height because of engine power loss. I remember RayC telling me once how high alt adversely affected engine power, given that T-72 already has low PWR it will be worse off than T-90/arjun.

I had already commented on this particular bit long ago. Actually not true. Most diesels in this day and age are turbocharged and high power tank diesels definitely so. With turbocharging,the loss of power with altitude , unlike in a normally aspirated engine doesn't happen.

In fact, turbochargers (and superchargers) were introduced initially to improve the high altitude performance of piston driven aero engines!

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 Jul 2011 06:00

SHrini sahab, CIA doesn't have higher powered engines, the recent T-72upg announced might.

tejas ji, tank-ex V t-72 upg is not as cut and dried as arjun V T-90. tank-ex carries lesser number of rounds for one (has to since it has one more crew member) and the complexities of t-72 ising the arjun turret is not trivial.
_________________

vina ji, when t-series engines can't deliver promised power in the plains should we take its capability at high-alt at face value ? I am told derating does happen to the T-72.