Indian Army: News & Discussion

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 06 Jul 2011 10:25

rohitvats wrote:
Shrinivasan wrote: <SNIP> Rohit, Are you sure. Isn't the formation sign of the 41st Arty an Eagle? agree that Blue BG is used for Arty though. This doesn't looks like Corps sign or an Army HQ sign. Could it be an independent Arty Brigade?
These are the only two formations signs for arty formations that I'm aware of. In case you've link to the 'Eagle' thing that you refer to, please share. As for formation sign of (I) Arty Brigade, well, AFAIK, only (I) Armored Brigades have unique formation signs. Other formations like (I) Infantry/Arty brigades take the formation sign of their respective controlling HQ - most often, the Corps formation sign.

i am sending you a mail @ your google mail

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 06 Jul 2011 10:52

Cross post from the "Police investigations" thread...
^^^ One this shooting case. Looks like the Army authorities may have to answer some tough questions.
Boy's death: CB-CID closing in on suspect
Parrying questions whether the agency had narrowed down on a senior Army official, he said all possible angles would be thoroughly investigated and any conclusion would be made based on indisputable evidence.

Meanwhile, the Army authorities in a statement issued here on Tuesday said all Army personnel in the vicinity (of the firing) and Civilian Security Guard on duty in the compound on Sunday were made available for joint investigation. The General Officer Commanding, Chennai Area, said “no guilty person will be shielded”.
Boy's death: PIL petition seeks action against accused
And there is immense pressure on the police to make an arrest quickly.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 06 Jul 2011 11:17

The proof will be in the evidence presented. And there is no question of "tough questions" for the army authorities to answer. The army is fully assisting TN Police in the probe, and the TN Police CB-CID chief has said as much.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 06 Jul 2011 12:20

Not your grand patron in chief, President tells ex-servicemen

this is what happens when the eligibility criteria for the high office is to have been a roti maker for rajmatas MIL

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 06 Jul 2011 16:34

rohit
you missed the point

IA is not giving explanations for all and sundry. Its members know what the details are.

Its forum members who do not know and whether they need to know is what I am questioning

All I am asking is why have detailed discussion on the lines of this is x div belonging to Corp etc???

case in point

Shrinivasan wrote:Please ID the formation Please?
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/308484/Wally/Ar ... aka-07.jpg
I thought it might be 40th Arty, but looks different? is it a Regimental sign?
Thanks In Advance!!!
IMO, 41st Arty Division. The blue background is unique to arty divisions as yellow is to armored divisions/(I) armored brigades.

40th Arty Division formation sign is in the pic below:

http://www.armyrecognition.com/images/s ... my_001.jpg

No need for asking whether its 40 or 41 and no need to explain if one knows whether its 40\41 or 51.

If a open source (and that does not cover restricted circulation mags) has it - fine but no need to explain the details.

Yeah orbat.com can do it but then it's boss is persona non grata and for a very good reason

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 06 Jul 2011 17:06

^^^Surya, a detailed discussion on the arty divisions (especiall, after 41st was raised) exists with in BR Forum archives....forget about orbat.com.

All I'm saying is that there are certain things even the services don't bother about. For example, when the 9 Corps was raised, there was pic of the GoC-in-C with flags of various formations under him in the background. And there was a debate to id the formations on BRF....was that some sensitive information? No, or the good Army Commander wouldn't have got himself photographed in front of those flags. Take another example - the Livefist even went to extent of identifying the Rocket Regiment which show cased Pinaka system in last RD/Army Day Parade; the MC during RD Parade regularly give details like "X contingent from Y Regiment from Z formation".

The issue is simple - we have complete lack of information about Services in public domain and consequently, when something gets discussed, we're not sure if it is OK or otherwise. There is an atmosphere of paranoia. My suggestion is, let the posters decide on what is kosher and what is not - and what to answer and what not. If the IA itself is not trying something, I don't think we need to be paranoid about it. However, I will take the advise that discretion should be used each time something like this comes up.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 06 Jul 2011 17:19

AdityaM wrote:Not your grand patron in chief, President tells ex-servicemen

this is what happens when the eligibility criteria for the high office is to have been a roti maker for rajmatas MIL

Sickening.

We have a titular head. Oops sorry......the head is missing.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 06 Jul 2011 17:50

rohit

The IA has folks who themselves do not understand sometimes how data can be mined.

There was a public link, tangentially related to the army on this forum which allowed one to build a deployment map of many Brigades- ( Rupak and I came across it). I sent it to my sources (scared the crap out of them because I figured out their deployment) and it landed with appropriate people and caused justified backlash.

If in doubt - better to be cautious

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 06 Jul 2011 18:20

Surya wrote:rohit

The IA has folks who themselves do not understand sometimes how data can be mined.

There was a public link, tangentially related to the army on this forum which allowed one to build a deployment map of many Brigades- ( Rupak and I came across it). I sent it to my sources (scared the crap out of them because I figured out their deployment) and it landed with appropriate people and caused justified backlash.

If in doubt - better to be cautious

Advise on caution taken, thanks.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 06 Jul 2011 18:21

To all you Gurus, a question please?

Do the Indian Armed Forces have good strategists? For e.g in the 60s Lt. Gen. Harbaksh Singh was reputed to be the best tank battle strategist after WWII.

Thanks in advance

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 06 Jul 2011 18:22

Surya wrote: <SNIP> If in doubt - better to be cautious

Point taken, chief.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 06 Jul 2011 18:26

rajanb wrote:To all you Gurus, a question please?

Do the Indian Armed Forces have good strategists? For e.g in the 60s Lt. Gen. Harbaksh Singh was reputed to be the best tank battle strategist after WWII.

Thanks in advance

Everybody seems to be focusing on the strategic aspect onlee ---- on how each one can knock the others out of his way and become the Chief.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 06 Jul 2011 18:33

chetak wrote:
rajanb wrote:To all you Gurus, a question please?

Do the Indian Armed Forces have good strategists? For e.g in the 60s Lt. Gen. Harbaksh Singh was reputed to be the best tank battle strategist after WWII.

Thanks in advance
Everybody seems to be focusing on the strategic aspect onlee ---- on how each one can knock the others out of his way and become the Chief.

That is the impression I had too. The advent of politics....sheesh. It hurt us badly in '62.

But on a brighter note, wouldn't some of the Corp Commanders or their staff officers be innovative and good? The guys who were involved in Cold Start?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 06 Jul 2011 19:33

From here: http://www.dailypioneer.com/312885/Indi ... power.html

In an effort to meet the challenge of growing military might of China, the Government has given the nod to some key projects, including creation of a new artillery division, a special forces unit and purchase of three aircraft for long-range reconnaissance.

The raising of a new artillery division (each division has more than 200 long-range guns) will be completed by the end of 2011 while the special forces unit, also to be raised and trained in the same time span, will aim to perform strategic role behind enemy lines in case of hostility. The three reconnaissance aircraft will be acquired, most probably from Israel, by the National Technical Research Organisation (NTRO), sources said.

The nod for these crucial steps came two weeks back, sources said, adding that the artillery division and the special forces unit will work alongside two mountain divisions which were created last year. Each division has 10,000 soldiers and they are specially trained for mountain warfare on the eastern front<SNIP>.

Question: Which long range a/c could these be? These:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... sahvit.jpg

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 06 Jul 2011 19:37

rohit

on this line one of my wishes would be to sit with Kapil vij and find out how he did certain things

If only the yanks had not latched on to him

but it was still a brown pants moment across the border.

regarding new SF unit etc

Thank god the new SF unit is MOD sanctioned -

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 06 Jul 2011 19:42

Shrinivasan wrote:
Surya wrote:why do people need to know exact unit, symbol etc???
Surya, that formation sign looks new... hence my doubt if this is from a new formation!!! am not going into this further...

From here: http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories483.htm It is dated Feb 2010:

While the acquisition of 145 Howitzers would be sufficient only to equip seven artillery regiments after catering for General staff reserves and would fill existing voids or provide replacements for mountain artillery units to be converted to 155 mm caliber as part of FARP, additional requirements have also arisen because of the governments decision to raise two mountain divisions and a fourth artillery division to support operations in the mountainous areas.

So, if the good author is correct about the number of arty divisions in IA, and being a retired Brigadier, I guess he would know his numbers, then we have three, and not two, arty divisions in existense. The GOI just sanctioned the fourth one for NE. And what a coincidence that the author of this article wrote about government decision for new arty division in 2010. So, may be, in principal approval was there in 2010, final nod has come about now.

Shrinivasan - If the info about three arty divisions is correct, it solves the mystery of the formation sign (which I admit I wrongly ascribed to 41st).

Added Later:

Another article talking about three arty divisions and fourth one planned.

The Diplomant - http://the-diplomat.com/flashpoints-blo ... -strategy/ (Dated Feb 2011)

A fourth Artillery Division could be introduced to support the new Mountain Strike Corps.

Out of 13 Corps’, 10 are defensive, while three are Strike Corps. The three Strike Corps consist of three Armoured, four Infantry, five Mechanised and three Artillery Divisions

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 06 Jul 2011 20:17

rajanb wrote:Do the Indian Armed Forces have good strategists? For e.g in the 60s Lt. Gen. Harbaksh Singh was reputed to be the best tank battle strategist after WWII.

First off, employing a mechanized formation is an operational art -- not in the realm of strategy. Strategy would be to employ this formation, plus air, plus sea, plus diplomatic, plus other assets to achieve a political objective. In India this is invariably a civilian responsibility, with the armed forces leadership providing their specialized professional advice. And, yes, India has had some good strategists (mostly civilian, some from the armed forces).

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 06 Jul 2011 20:38

rajanb wrote: Do the Indian Armed Forces have good strategists? For e.g in the 60s Lt. Gen. Harbaksh Singh was reputed to be the best tank battle strategist after WWII.

You forgot Gen. Krishnaswamy Sundarji

sum · Post by **sum** » 06 Jul 2011 21:43

The raising of a new artillery division (each division has more than 200 long-range guns) will be completed by the end of 2011

Where are the guns to equip this new division? IIRC, not a single new piece has been inducted since eons ( other than few being upgunned from 130 to 155 mm)

The three reconnaissance aircraft will be acquired, most probably from Israel, by the National Technical Research Organisation (NTRO), sources said.

Just 3 new ARC planes for entire Chinese border?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 06 Jul 2011 22:49

rajanb wrote:
Do the Indian Armed Forces have good strategists? For e.g in the 60s Lt. Gen. Harbaksh Singh was reputed to be the best tank battle strategist after WWII.

Based on what????

Its not like we had huge tank battles won everything in sight

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 07 Jul 2011 02:52

nachiket wrote:
rajanb wrote: Do the Indian Armed Forces have good strategists? For e.g in the 60s Lt. Gen. Harbaksh Singh was reputed to be the best tank battle strategist after WWII.
You forgot Gen. Krishnaswamy Sundarji

Lt Gen Vijay Oberoi would be another good strategist? why is curiosity of "good strategist" Google uncle might help. BR COAS page could be another reference.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 07 Jul 2011 06:12

Court martial likely against 27 serving Army officers

Army sources said the Court of Inquiry against the 27 serving officers was completed a few weeks ago, followed by the summary of evidence which too is now over. Based on the summary of evidence, military's legal experts are studying the next course of action. The legal opinion is veering around to convening court-martial against the accused officers, sources said.
:
The unprecedented action comes after almost four years of investigations, prompted by a PIL in Rajasthan high court by an advocate alleging that non-service pattern (NSP) weapons, bought by the officers for personal use, was being sold off to dubious characters. He had alleged that the NSP weapons obtained from Central Ordnance Depot, Jabalpur were being sold to civilians by Army and government officials in violation of Arms Act. The Supreme Court is presently hearing the case.

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 07 Jul 2011 06:41

Auto cos,L&T vie for Army's $10 bn combat vehicle order

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 07 Jul 2011 08:45

Indian Army Looks Overseas for Acquiring Variety of Ammunition

http://idrw.org/?p=2872

India has also invited bids for acquiring 122mm Howitzer as well as 33,700 numbers of 122mm Reduce charge are required. The shelf life of the Howitzer ammunition should be 15 years under sheltered conditions during peace time. The ammunition should be compatible with the 122MM howitzer gun.

Who sells 122mm Howitzers these days ??

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 07 Jul 2011 08:58

Gurneesh wrote:Indian Army Looks Overseas for Acquiring Variety of Ammunition

http://idrw.org/?p=2872

India has also invited bids for acquiring 122mm Howitzer as well as 33,700 numbers of 122mm Reduce charge are required. The shelf life of the Howitzer ammunition should be 15 years under sheltered conditions during peace time. The ammunition should be compatible with the 122MM howitzer gun.
Who sells 122mm Howitzers these days ??

While I don't know about the howitzers, the ammunition could be for our D-30 guns.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Jul 2011 10:29

>> Who sells 122mm Howitzers these days ??

NORINCO and North Korea for sure. my guess is could be laying the paper trail for acquiring a large lot of mothballed howitzers from russian army stocks cheaply...Rus and Israel are known NEVER to throw away anything useful. in the second chechen war they were using bombs stashed away in some cave post WW2

likewise israel is legendary for its old tank and APC mods.

these old-but-unused kit would supplement the M777.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 07 Jul 2011 10:51

rohitvats wrote:So, if the good author is correct about the number of arty divisions in IA, and being a retired Brigadier, I guess he would know his numbers, then we have three, and not two, arty divisions in existense. The GOI just sanctioned the fourth one for NE. And what a coincidence that the author of this article wrote about government decision for new arty division in 2010. So, may be, in principal approval was there in 2010, final nod has come about now.
Shrinivasan - If the info about three arty divisions is correct, it solves the mystery of the formation sign

The existence of the Third Artillery Division (i think 30th Artillery Div) was discussed sometime back based on some statements and formation signs... but then gurus said 30th was redesignated as 40th. Now that gap in division numbering would be filled. I think this is based out of Ambala Cant. The new Artillery div approved for North-East is a great news... I presume some existing indep Arty Brigade is getting converted into a full-fledged division in the N-E. What would bolster the strength of all Arty Divs and Brigades (/Regiments) is an infusion of SP and Towed Arty. Preferably in the 155mm segment. A tedy infusion of MBRLs would also help.
Rohit: did we add any arty in the recent past apart from the 105mm OFB field guns?

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 07 Jul 2011 10:56

Artillery Div's ORBAT consists of the following;
2 Gun Brigades (3 Regiments each)
1 155mm tracked SPHs
2 motorised 155mm SPHs
3 155mm towed howitzers
1 Regiment of 122mm BM-21 Grad MBRLs
1 Brahmos I Cruise Missile Regiment
1 Prithvi SS-150 Missile Group
1 Composite Brigade comprising
1 Prithvi SS-150 Missile Group
1 Pinaka MBRL Regiment (18 launchers)
1 Smerch-M MBRLs Regiment (12 launchers)
1 RSTA Group comprising six Searcher II/Heron II UAVs
2 TPQ-37 Firefinder counterbattery radars (need confirmation)
4 Medium-range, BEL-built Stentor battlefield surveillance radars

If we added the third Arty division, either they have thinned out existing div or upgunned more of these 130mm which we are not aware of. Is there a possibility, Desh would have quitely bought additional 155mm Howitzers?

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 07 Jul 2011 13:48

A Sharma wrote:Auto cos,L&T vie for Army's $10 bn combat vehicle order

To me ALL and L&T are the most credible. Tata Motors would be last on my list at least in this case (FICV).

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 07 Jul 2011 17:55

People,

Do not forget that the Polish Bumar group had announced the sale of some 100 Polish 122 mm Gvozdikas to the Indian Army not so long ago.

For those who came late, the Gvozdika is essentially a self-propelled D-30 mounted on the venerable MT-LB.

yes the Poles still make it.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 07 Jul 2011 19:08

D Roy wrote:Do not forget that the Polish Bumar group had announced the sale of some 100 Polish 122 mm Gvozdikas to the Indian Army not so long ago.
For those who came late, the Gvozdika is essentially a self-propelled D-30 mounted on the venerable MT-LB.
yes the Poles still make it.

Did this sale actually happen? or just waiting for Summer/winter/Spring/high alt / Low Alt /Rain forest / Andaman Trials..

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 Jul 2011 19:15

OT : it is trials, not trails.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 07 Jul 2011 19:22

on the topic of "best since so and so", why is it we always go in for these descriptors? i keep hearing stuff like "mumbai police 2nd best after scotland yard", "blah blah best after blue blue" and also above?
firstly why are we comparing?
secondly what are we comparing against?
i think its been some time since the london metropolitan police (based in new scotland yard and not scotland yard anymore) has laid any claims to being the best...
OT

jai · Post by **jai** » 07 Jul 2011 19:22

http://www.financialexpress.com/news/au ... r/813925/1

Expected to be a half track ? is that superior to fully tracked ?? One thought half tracks died after second world war as full tracks were found to be better in terms of better mobility and ground pressure..

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 07 Jul 2011 19:36

I am not sure if the WW2 era half tracks had optionally deploy-able half tracks. IMO if it is half tracked and the tracked wheels/tracks can be hydraullically deployed at will then it will provide very good cross-country performance and good economy on metalled/semi-metalled roads(ofcourse i am an armchair sipaahi)

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 07 Jul 2011 19:55

It could be DDM, I think it meant, half the order for tracked and half the order to be wheeled

My thoughts..

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 08 Jul 2011 01:42

Rahul M wrote:OT : it is trials, not trails.

i used trails pejoratively... not a misspelling.. anyway.. fixed it

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 08 Jul 2011 01:57

please don't, it might catch on. I am already tired of reading so many 'dassault rafaels'.

symontk wrote:It could be DDM, I think it meant, half the order for tracked and half the order to be wheeled

My thoughts..

huma siddiqui ain't no DDM. it doesn't mean half-track but what you wrote.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 08 Jul 2011 03:58

Rahul M wrote:please don't, it might catch on. I am already tired of reading so many 'dassault rafaels'.

agreed, point noted... typed it laaaate last night...

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 08 Jul 2011 06:58

The forgotten history of Indian troops in China