The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Jul 2011 20:43

ShauryaT, The Parlimentray system of the majority party being in government and thus over the exectuive is the norm for Westminister system. In US the President gets to appoint his cabinet who get confirmed by the elected Congress. Since Cabinet members/Executive are not elected this step was chosen.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Jul 2011 20:50

ShauryaT wrote:Let me add to my post to provide an example, for which I will probably be skinned alive on the forum.

One of the reasons, I respect PRC of today (but painful how they got here) is they are not so emanored by western systems - names and sound bites notwithstanding. They seem to have found a balance, between the form and role of government their society is comfortable with. This balance is not perfect but is a study of its own in terms of how and why their society accepts their current form of governance. Once we go past the criticisms borne from the deracinated mind and see Chinese society for what they always were and the role that governments played in this society, you will start to appreciate their situation.

What we have to do is to come to the same balance. A balance borne out of values and principles and forms of governance that will work best for OUR society, in light of our own history and lessons thereof.

The ruling elites of PRC dont need to look for outside support to rule in PRC. hence the national interests develop automatically. In India the ruling elites are deracinated or separated from the local people ethos hance they need outside approval for their accpetability to the locals. Hence there are no national interests but individual or party interests that prevail...

I suggested many times to let the govt have a fixed term of elected duration and see how the IB manipulation, the fixing of Parlimentary votes for survival etc will get reduced. First 15 years this was the norm due to the monopoly of INC politicial power . JLN and the Constitiuion writers neven envisaged a fractured polity after the heady days of post Independence.

After 1962, the consensus broke down and with it the apparent degeneration.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 07 Jul 2011 21:10

ramana wrote:ShauryaT, The Parlimentray system of the majority party being in government and thus over the exectuive is the norm for Westminister system. In US the President gets to appoint his cabinet who get confirmed by the elected Congress. Since Cabinet members/Executive are not elected this step was chosen.

Yes and I suspect that one the reasons they never got around to seriously consider an elected executive is because they were not sure/educated/capable to dwell in the more difficult routes of exploring an alternative model. Over 70% of them were lawyers and many trained in England. The only thing they were most familiar with was the British model. The British model, as you well know, was derived over centuries based on their history as a people with their monarch. Transplanting such a model to India just does not make any sense for she is not a fertile playground to play in. She has her own history but when people become deracinated serious mistakes can happen.

PRC went through a similar process of deracination with ideas of Marx but they seem to have attained a balance now. It is no coincidence that as soon as this balance was established their nation started to progress. There is more to a nation's progress than transplanted ideas and economic reforms.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Jul 2011 21:15

We can explore the PRC model in other thread. Please answer where ever you can when did the PRc realise the chimera? I think in later 60s while Mao was still alive.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 07 Jul 2011 21:57

brihaspati wrote: If that is what is wanted, fine - but it will then go through a phase of fascism under self-bloated elite factions that will only increase people's suffering.

Well perhaps it fits in with your thesis of things needing to get worse before they get better.

OTOH unelected powers will have no fig leaf of public support as and when they increase peoples suffering.

Hopefully the backlash will be sooner and harder.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 07 Jul 2011 22:10

ShauryaT wrote:Let me add to my post to provide an example, for which I will probably be skinned alive on the forum.

One of the reasons, I respect PRC of today (but painful how they got here) is they are not so emanored by western systems - names and sound bites notwithstanding. They seem to have found a balance, between the form and role of government their society is comfortable with. This balance is not perfect but is a study of its own in terms of how and why their society accepts their current form of governance. Once we go past the criticisms borne from the deracinated mind and see Chinese society for what they always were and the role that governments played in this society, you will start to appreciate their situation.

What we have to do is to come to the same balance. A balance borne out of values and principles and forms of governance that will work best for OUR society, in light of our own history and lessons thereof.

ShauryaT ji,

I must disagree with you here. all those skyscrapers and "cool" cities PRC builds is b/c of their insecurity and the need to ape the West. they are completely and utterly enamored of the West and are doing everything they can to become "like" the West.

what "balance" are you talking about?

one this PRC has not achieved is BALANCE. they are full of extremes. their entire economic agenda has been one giant extreme after another. the "ghost cities" are just one example.

"PRC" is a new entity. CHINA is an age-old entity. PRC is nothing like CHINA. the authoritarian form of govt is nothing new in CHINA, but the blind "aping" is something very new.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 07 Jul 2011 22:37

Sanku wrote:
brihaspati wrote: If that is what is wanted, fine - but it will then go through a phase of fascism under self-bloated elite factions that will only increase people's suffering.
Well perhaps it fits in with your thesis of things needing to get worse before they get better.

OTOH unelected powers will have no fig leaf of public support as and when they increase peoples suffering.

Hopefully the backlash will be sooner and harder.

I still bleed deep for having lost so many to these "fascists". If you have ever organized people, you would know what dies out deep inside when potential fellow travelers are lost out to ideological crooks - especially of the "left" who have been awarded the national mantle of the onlee pro-poor/pro-deprived/pro-repressed force.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 07 Jul 2011 22:49

ramana wrote:
ShauryaT wrote:Let me add to my post to provide an example, for which I will probably be skinned alive on the forum.

One of the reasons, I respect PRC of today (but painful how they got here) is they are not so emanored by western systems - names and sound bites notwithstanding. They seem to have found a balance, between the form and role of government their society is comfortable with. This balance is not perfect but is a study of its own in terms of how and why their society accepts their current form of governance. Once we go past the criticisms borne from the deracinated mind and see Chinese society for what they always were and the role that governments played in this society, you will start to appreciate their situation.

What we have to do is to come to the same balance. A balance borne out of values and principles and forms of governance that will work best for OUR society, in light of our own history and lessons thereof.
The ruling elites of PRC dont need to look for outside support to rule in PRC. hence the national interests develop automatically. In India the ruling elites are deracinated or separated from the local people ethos hance they need outside approval for their accpetability to the locals. Hence there are no national interests but individual or party interests that prevail...

I suggested many times to let the govt have a fixed term of elected duration and see how the IB manipulation, the fixing of Parlimentary votes for survival etc will get reduced. First 15 years this was the norm due to the monopoly of INC politicial power . JLN and the Constitiuion writers neven envisaged a fractured polity after the heady days of post Independence.

After 1962, the consensus broke down and with it the apparent degeneration.

ramana ji,
why were the dual constituencies withdrawn from our electoral system right after the first general elections? Because God's own party did not do well wherever the "scheduled" seats and candidates competed in the dual constituency. As for fractured polity, someone dealing with factional politics and fractured intra-org as well provincial legislative elections - from 1930's - would have known very well what was brewing post independence. The final selection of the dynastic chief to be installed in power, had to be done by "personal authority" over and above "elections" which elected someone else.

Fractured polity was there before 62, for the previous 30 years at least, and there were rumbling signs all along the decade before 62.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Jul 2011 23:01

True things are always there before they become patent or overt.

one lesson I got from hisotry was that the various long duration empires in India were not uniligual dispensations. A modern example was that:
"The Maratha Empire was not a Marathi empire!"

Lingusitic states were quick solution to create a new identity but now that the old danger is past they are leading to chauvinism or Thackeryism.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 07 Jul 2011 23:26

brihaspati wrote: The final selection of the dynastic chief to be installed in power, had to be done by "personal authority" over and above "elections" which elected someone else.

Fractured polity was there before 62, for the previous 30 years at least, and there were rumbling signs all along the decade before 62.

MKG choosing JLN as his political heir is a real enigma to me. The only rationale I can come up with for such an act is MKG had lost faith in his own methods and thoughts of India.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 07 Jul 2011 23:30

MKG himself was a political heir to Gokhale and is brought to india from SA at the behest of British.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 07 Jul 2011 23:31

ShauryaT wrote:
brihaspati wrote: The final selection of the dynastic chief to be installed in power, had to be done by "personal authority" over and above "elections" which elected someone else.

Fractured polity was there before 62, for the previous 30 years at least, and there were rumbling signs all along the decade before 62.
MKG choosing JLN as his political heir is a real enigma to me. The only rationale I can come up with for such an act is MKG had lost faith in his own methods and thoughts of India.

British coercion?

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 07 Jul 2011 23:32

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 140049.cms

Salvos across the bow... unfortunately such is the caliber of individuals in the government.

Hazare's version of Lokpal bill unacceptable: Kapil Sibal

MUMBAI: Union minister and a key member of the Lokpal bill drafting committee Kapil Sibal said that Team Hazare's version of the legislation was unacceptable, as some of its provisions were against the basic tenets of the Constitution.

Addressing Congress workers, Sibal described "Team Anna" as "an unelected group with accountability to no one."

He also said, jokingly, that Centre should have taken "inputs" from Vilasrao Deshmukh, who had the experience of dealing with "Hazare and his fasts" in Maharashtra.

"Lokpal (as per team Anna draft) would not be accountable to Parliament or the courts because these institutions would be brought under it. This is not acceptable," he said.

Earlier, in a lighter vein, Sibal said the government made the mistake of not enlisting the help of his Cabinet colleague and former Maharashtra chief minister Vilasrao Deshmukh while engaging Hazare.

Addressing Deshmukh, who was also present, Sibal said, "You have the experience of dealing with Hazare and his fasts (in Maharashtra). With your inputs, the government would have handled the issue differently."

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 08 Jul 2011 00:26

Kapil Sibal may be on his way out now

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 08 Jul 2011 01:14

http://www.dailypioneer.com/351404/2G-c ... Sibal.html

An NGO on Thursday moved the Supreme Court seeking CBI probe against Telecom Minister Kapil Sibal and Attorney General G E Vahanvati for allegedly favouring Reliance Infocom on the penalty over 2G licences and bypassing of rules to give opinion to former minister A Raja respectively.

IMO CBI can't be trusted for such an important investigation, it enjoys as good reputation as the current govt itself.

News regarding direct involvement of PC emerges

JPC probe indicts ex-FM for giving Raja free hand

The JPC inquiry in 2G scam has brought in sharp focus the role of Home Minister P Chidambaram in letting former Telecom Minister A Raja have his way in spectrum allotment on first-come-first-serve basis despite objections by his own Ministry.

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/bjp-says-chi ... 37-64.html

BJP says Chidambaram involved in 2G scam

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 08 Jul 2011 01:40

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?277435

The Lokpal debate has degenerated into a sinners versus saints debate. The bad guys are the government, the good guys are Anna Hazare & Co (I exclude Baba Ramdev because, as expected, he has shot himself in the foot). Actually, the situation is more nuanced. Let me hasten to add that I am on the side of the saints and completely endorse their main contention, that is, the government would prefer either the status quo or a toothless Lokpal—or something close to a toothless Lokpal.

Meanwhile, Arvind Kejriwal, Santosh Hegde and others need to look at their own negotiating tactics and more importantly, their charter of demands. Since civil society members are novice negotiators and novice communicators, and since their only constituency is the media, they are guilty of massive overkill. Talking too much is not a sin but talking too loosely is. Sure, hammering out a controversial and complex piece of legislation is not a tea party. Nevertheless, the crucial public relations war which the government demonstrably lost has to some extent been retrieved by the erratic conduct of Team Anna. We are now in a situation where people who were initially sympathetic to the team feel they have overstepped the line. “Unreasonable” is the word I most often hear.

Now, with a change in the public mood, the government has hardened its stance. Messrs Chidambaram and Sibal feel disinclined to accommodate any of the demands because it is civil society which is on the backfoot. When Anna Hazare goes on his fast, I am not sure what kind of response he will receive. For the moment, most of the cards seems to be in the hands of the government. Pity.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Jul 2011 02:59

Next time please postt who wrote the article.

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 08 Jul 2011 12:01

brihaspati wrote: Which should also make it clear that - the power of governance is cleverly being shifted into institutions which are unelected, and which therefore actually go even further out of potential control by the people.

The goal of a democracy is to have representative government and an "elected government" does not necessary mean a representative government. For example, 150 out of 545 MP's in Lok Sabha have criminal charges pending against them. So unless you are telling me that full 30% of the Indian population is charge-sheeted criminals how is this a representative government? The situation in state governments is even worse.

So the first thing that we need to get rid of from our minds is this delusion of a "representative government". Once you get rid of that the rest (corruption and bad governance in general) starts to make sense.

Who populate these divine super-pure institutions ? people who think of themselves as sublime, who think that all people look up to them - elite factions who pretend or enlist popular grievance to surreptitiously worm into rashtryia power without facing administrative or economic duties and who will not sully their oh-so-pure hands with seeking popular mandate! This is the worst part of what we detest and accuse in so-called "forward caste" shenanigans or especially what we so frequently bash as "brahminism".

Let's assume that this is true. That these people who populate the independent bodies do think of themselves as "special above the rest". Then, how is that so bad compared to the current setup where the criminals (150 out of 545 MPs in Lok Shabha) in bed with political families (156 out of 545 MPs in Lok Shabha) and rich businessmen (a humble 35 out of 545 MPs in Lok Shabha) are ruling the rest of the population of this country?

In our hatred for a corrupt polity we are making the same mistake that led many societies to give power to fascists - and fascism is a phenomenon, which can be as Left as as it can be Right. Allowing the SC or the Lokpal more such status and unaccounted power, will lead to unraveling of the rashtra. If that is what is wanted, fine - but it will then go through a phase of fascism under self-bloated elite factions that will only increase people's suffering.

My impression is that LokPal is going to be a useless organization. Even if it is created, it will take at least a few years to setup all the machinery and operational procedures for the LokPal - more time for the corrup to hide their wealth. In any case, an independent body given a specific task is nothing new in a democratic setup and does not automatically equate or lead to fascism.

As far as "Rashtra" is concerned, it is already unravelling courtesy of political parties who get "elected" to form government. The only saving grace has been the economic reforms which were forced on an almost bankrupt rashtra in 1991 as a result of IMF pressure. Beyond these forced economic reforms, the "rashtra" has not even been able to reliably supply drinking water and electricity to even a significant minority of its population.

The fact, brahaspati ji, is that governments in India do not work for the people. They work for themselves while deluding the people with Gandhian notions of morality. If that was not the case, at the very least, this country would have had reliable drinking water and electricity supply after 60 years of independence. The impression that India has a "representative" government is a pure delusion. Elections have nothing to do with democracy and certainly in case of this country the election mechanism does not lead to a representative government.

Having said that, I am not supporting a facist take over in any way (nor is there any indication that having independent organization with specific mandate will lead to such a facist takeover), nor do I have a particular love for LokPal (most likely going to be another ineffective government bureaucracy) .

I am only saying that the current form of government is not any better that the hypothetical "facist takeover" (that you are warning against) and that this country needs some serious reform in governance and that too quickly. If those reforms don't show up fast, rest assured you will have a facist takeover provided that the current political parties don't turn into facist (or equivalent) themselves.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 08 Jul 2011 12:18

If the present system (multi-party) continues with all its imperfections, defections,re-alignments,money will continue to pass under the table in "khokhas" "jholas" and "tokris" covered with fruit.The influential are always reaping the benefits of doubt,before the government makes a change,they manage under the table deals to ensure they can survive despite the cosmetic changes introduced.India democracy is still not mature, it is developing, I am not sure which way it is heading.By the time the parties align and form a properly functional democracy answerable to the masses, it would be 2025. One of the first and most important steps in choosing politicians should be their educational qualifications, supported by their social work,and their lawful activities. As long as we have declared criminals working in parties,things will never improve but get worse.Police records should be the first thing to check before anyone is allowed to stand for any elections.
Lokpal Bill is surely being diluted,and if enacted in a hurry it will be another ineffective bill introduced as a placebo to keep the peace between those who want it and those who dont.Still the placebo is a placebo.There will be no cutting edge functionality in the bill if it is not acceptable to the people who wrote it.The cookie is crumbling already, we just need to see what happens on 16th August.

niran · Post by **niran** » 08 Jul 2011 12:31

sanjeevpunj wrote:activities. As long as we have declared criminals working in parties,things will never improve but get worse.Police records should be the first thing to check before anyone is allowed to stand for any elections.

there is a problem here saar, the law says

not guilty until proven in a court

one benefit elected criminals is all the cases simply becomes noncases so they are piouser
than thou, remember when Mullayam Yadav first became CM he had 56+ criminal cases pending, whatever happened to those?

devaraj_d · Post by **devaraj_d** » 08 Jul 2011 13:07

OT. Does anybody know what happened to Julian Assange revealing the names of the Indian Swiss bank account holders?

http://www.rediff.com/business/slide-sh ... 110426.htm

I am thinking about this angle for a long time now. I hope he releases the names as the Indian government does not want to reveal names due to obvious reasons.

I wonder how the government and public will react if a lot of Congress politicians are identified.

devaraj_d · Post by **devaraj_d** » 08 Jul 2011 13:16

sanjeevpunj wrote:If the present system (multi-party) continues with all its imperfections, defections,re-alignments,money will continue to pass under the table in "khokhas" "jholas" and "tokris" covered with fruit.The influential are always reaping the benefits of doubt,before the government makes a change,they manage under the table deals to ensure they can survive despite the cosmetic changes introduced.India democracy is still not mature, it is developing, I am not sure which way it is heading.By the time the parties align and form a properly functional democracy answerable to the masses, it would be 2025. One of the first and most important steps in choosing politicians should be their educational qualifications, supported by their social work,and their lawful activities. As long as we have declared criminals working in parties,things will never improve but get worse.Police records should be the first thing to check before anyone is allowed to stand for any elections.
Lokpal Bill is surely being diluted,and if enacted in a hurry it will be another ineffective bill introduced as a placebo to keep the peace between those who want it and those who dont.Still the placebo is a placebo.There will be no cutting edge functionality in the bill if it is not acceptable to the people who wrote it.The cookie is crumbling already, we just need to see what happens on 16th August.

IMHO the Presidential system (followed in the US) is better than the parliamentary system (currently followed in India). This will eliminate the "averaging" of the criminals as elected members.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 08 Jul 2011 13:36

that this country needs some serious reform in governance and that too quickly. If those reforms don't show up fast, rest assured you will have a facist takeover provided that the current political parties don't turn into facist (or equivalent) themselves.

The significance of this statement is very important to grasp. We have reached a point, where something has to be done about Governance issues. Not only is the disgust with the present set up and governance so overarching, it brings in the issue of what forces want to ride on this wave. We have also to be very aware of that aspect. No fascist takeover is going to be less corrupt than the set up today. Lets be very sure of that. Fascists have misruled in every country they have been in power throughout History. Removing them has resulted mostly in leaving the nation in further shambles. Fascism is not a choice for India. Our only hope lies in very quickly creating pressure to carry out these reforms as fast as possible.

Another aspect short of fascism is the stalling of decision making processes due to fear of action. That is the worst scenario. Worse than the present corruption as far as loss to the exchequer goes. We have to also produce an environment that rewards good quick transparent decision making processes while punishing stalling in the process all the time while maintaining all watchdog functions and systems of checks and balances. This can be achieved if the public/ media focuses on that aspect more.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 08 Jul 2011 14:33

ramana wrote:Pranav, An elected Lokpal would be a parallel govt.
Makes it a demockracy.

No - only an independent investigating agency. You can't give the ruling party veto powers over investigating its own corruption!

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 08 Jul 2011 16:35

devaraj_d wrote: IMHO the Presidential system (followed in the US) is better than the parliamentary system (currently followed in India). This will eliminate the "averaging" of the criminals as elected members.

Exactly, and in UK too, there is accountability.See how John Blair was edged out, when even the slightest discomfort was felt against his policies.Here we stand in India, waiting for the passing of a bill which the people want, which the politicians don't want, an impasse between Junta and Politicians.

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 08 Jul 2011 17:52

Govt may appeal against Special Investigation Team for black money

Read more at: http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/govt- ... -117677&cp

OK this is a declared war of Indian government against all those who want to bring black money even if it is SC or SIT.

Is this to safeguard so many ministers and so many govt officials or so many who paid congress to come to the power?

More than bringing back the money it is exposing the names what is most difficult for Congress now!

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 08 Jul 2011 18:57

The first and foremost important reform we need is: Remove the nomination of candidates and introduce Primaries in addition to Presidential system. Presidential system separates the executive and the legislature and also introduces checks/balances. One political workers feel that leadership matters, they need not bow down to Mulyam or Laloo or Sonia or Rahul or Jagan, good things will start happening. No more selling tickets. No more buying tickets.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 08 Jul 2011 19:20

dhiman ji, and sanjeevpunj ji,
a quick pointer, [tapping from a PITA meeting

] a lot of "criminal" cases registered against political activists or figures are also cooked up cases and allegations, specifically slapped on by rivals within and outside the party. The police also know the real story most of the time and they keep it hanging - not wishing to annoy either group.

The most important first step would have been to reform the police. What we are going through now is a futile and ever-spiralling out of control process where every new institution created to supervise or prosecute the previous institutions, soon needs a new institution to supervise it in turn.

A multiplicity of ever increasing number of institutions each with greatre power than those previous, is a surefire way towards dictatorships. Because it reduces cyclically public confidence in broader and "lower" institutions, and putting in faith in "higher" superior bodies of men.

It is erroneous to bring in UK or USA as examples of quick systemic correction. A deeper analysis will show that it still works in the interests of a certain business-industry-finance coterie, and the politicians become casualties of changes in the perceptions of that interest network. It has nothing to do with "people" of those realms.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 08 Jul 2011 19:32

I think we are going in the wrong direction. What should be explored is to reduce role of human decision-maker in deciding fate and benefits/rights/entitlements of individuals and entities - as much as is practically feasible. There should be certain basic rights and entitlements that should be independent of this or that huzur or huzurein - politician/police/sublime-judges/ministers/public-servants - signature. A person by birth, and an automated process of verifiable identity - should be able to use that identity to get a bank account, get social welfare benefits and entitlements, educational and financial opportunities. Businesses similarly should be forced through automated competitive processes as much as possible - removing human judgments as much as feasible. Police reform is crucial, raising their salaries, and benefits while making it compulsory for certain measures to protect the suspect or accused from the sadism that typically develops in police functionaries in India who still think of themselves as serving a colonial master against a foreign subject nation. An independent police complaints commission would be more important than the LokPal!

devaraj_d · Post by **devaraj_d** » 08 Jul 2011 19:45

vijayk wrote:The first and foremost important reform we need is: Remove the nomination of candidates and introduce Primaries in addition to Presidential system. Presidential system separates the executive and the legislature and also introduces checks/balances. One political workers feel that leadership matters, they need not bow down to Mulyam or Laloo or Sonia or Rahul or Jagan, good things will start happening. No more selling tickets. No more buying tickets.

Exactly. The US system has more checks and balances compared to our system. Even in many countries that have the parliamentary system it functions well and many of them are well developed. Some how our politicians have mastered the art of misusing a 'not-so-perfect' system. We have too many parties full of career politicians and party members that have to be fed. The best way to eliminate the ills is to start afresh with a Presidential system even though it is still a 'not-so-perfect' system but still better. Lokpal can function autonomously as one of the arms of the Indian government. However, having said that we should not blindly follow the US system which has some drawbacks.

devaraj_d · Post by **devaraj_d** » 08 Jul 2011 19:59

brihaspati wrote:dhiman ji, and sanjeevpunj ji,
...
It is erroneous to bring in UK or USA as examples of quick systemic correction. A deeper analysis will show that it still works in the interests of a certain business-industry-finance coterie, and the politicians become casualties of changes in the perceptions of that interest network. It has nothing to do with "people" of those realms.

AFAIK the US government / politicians generally work in the interest of Americans and they openly say that. There are many examples where they are the utmost hypocrites but still acted in the interest of Americans / American companies. We should have a government just like this. Granted there are some problems with funding and lobbying groups in the US which we have to avoid.

Only in India we can have politicians openly telling that they need not follow the wishes / mandate of the people and still be acceptable. Our Indian government at the moment is brazenly supporting corruption by not acting against it and also by suppressing people who are against corruption.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 08 Jul 2011 21:15

^^^
the above is a simplistic view. American govt is a carefully constructed "grid" which has two objectives:

1. take direction from the financial/political/military elite to create policy.
2. this policy was implemented in such a fashion that the national lifestyle was basically created around this agenda of the elite, and therefore as long as their agenda was carried out, the "common" Joe and Jane also had a decent lifestyle.

the "financial" elite was different groups in different times. in the post-revolution era, it was mostly slave owning landowners.
in the early 19th century till the civil war, it was pioneers and agriculturalists.
post civil-war, it was the industrial class and railroad builders.
since the early 20th century, it was the "trusts" and banking hegemons.
briefly, in the Depression era and up to the 1970's the industrial class once again emerged as the most powerful "financial" elite.
but starting in the late 70's, the "financial" elite once again switched back to the banking hegemons.

in any era of American history (which is quite short), "financial" elite actively set the agenda of the GOTUS. the prosperity of the people is largely dependent on the success of the implementation of this agenda of the financial elite of the time.

as is clear by now, the definition of "financial elite" is simply whichever class has the greatest money power and the consequent influence that stems from having money power.

one interesting "struggle" that has clearly become apparent is the emergence of the Banking class. only the fierce opposition which resulted from a Depression had led, temporarily, to the rollback of Banking agenda. as the memories of the Depression faded, Bankers have reasserted their power and influence.

an interesting angle of research will be the interpretation of American history by looking at the power and influence of the "financial elite" of any given time. this will surely give lot of fruit in understanding how this group, in any given era, supports and nurtures political and cultural forces which support its agenda.

devaraj_d · Post by **devaraj_d** » 08 Jul 2011 22:13

devesh wrote:^^^
the above is a simplistic view. American govt is a carefully constructed "grid" which has two objectives:

1. take direction from the financial/political/military elite to create policy.
2. this policy was implemented in such a fashion that the national lifestyle was basically created around this agenda of the elite, and therefore as long as their agenda was carried out, the "common" Joe and Jane also had a decent lifestyle.

the "financial" elite was different groups in different times. in the post-revolution era, it was mostly slave owning landowners.
in the early 19th century till the civil war, it was pioneers and agriculturalists.
post civil-war, it was the industrial class and railroad builders.
since the early 20th century, it was the "trusts" and banking hegemons.
briefly, in the Depression era and up to the 1970's the industrial class once again emerged as the most powerful "financial" elite.
but starting in the late 70's, the "financial" elite once again switched back to the banking hegemons.

in any era of American history (which is quite short), "financial" elite actively set the agenda of the GOTUS. the prosperity of the people is largely dependent on the success of the implementation of this agenda of the financial elite of the time.

as is clear by now, the definition of "financial elite" is simply whichever class has the greatest money power and the consequent influence that stems from having money power.

one interesting "struggle" that has clearly become apparent is the emergence of the Banking class. only the fierce opposition which resulted from a Depression had led, temporarily, to the rollback of Banking agenda. as the memories of the Depression faded, Bankers have reasserted their power and influence.

an interesting angle of research will be the interpretation of American history by looking at the power and influence of the "financial elite" of any given time. this will surely give lot of fruit in understanding how this group, in any given era, supports and nurtures political and cultural forces which support its agenda.

Thanks devesh. I was not aware of all the details that you posted.

Isn't this happening in India currently with favoritism shown to some companies? AFAIK of America there are both openly pro Democratic and Republican business owners. I do not know the politics or the history of America but IMO no US government will support companies that will result in a financial loss or a security threat to the country.

I am not suggesting that we blindly follow the US. I want a Indian government that will bring back our old glorious times our forefathers enjoyed. One of the ways I think it will work quickly is the presidential form of government.

Since we have an awakening right now thanks to Anna Hazare I think this is the right time for us to hit the restart button.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 09 Jul 2011 00:03

devaraj_d wrote:
Thanks devesh. I was not aware of all the details that you posted.

Isn't this happening in India currently with favoritism shown to some companies? AFAIK of America there are both openly pro Democratic and Republican business owners. I do not know the politics or the history of America but IMO no US government will support companies that will result in a financial loss or a security threat to the country.

I am not suggesting that we blindly follow the US. I want a Indian government that will bring back our old glorious times our forefathers enjoyed. One of the ways I think it will work quickly is the presidential form of government.

Since we have an awakening right now thanks to Anna Hazare I think this is the right time for us to hit the restart button.

devaraj ji,

what was the 2008 meltdown? and what category do you put the actions of American polity in the aftermath of 2008?
I would say that US has a very good system, which has become too paralyzed by the inherent contradictions of Empire. they are at a cross roads, wondering which path to take. the path they take will reflect America's future life style.

devaraj_d · Post by **devaraj_d** » 09 Jul 2011 01:26

devesh wrote:
devaraj_d wrote:
Thanks devesh. I was not aware of all the details that you posted.

Isn't this happening in India currently with favoritism shown to some companies? AFAIK of America there are both openly pro Democratic and Republican business owners. I do not know the politics or the history of America but IMO no US government will support companies that will result in a financial loss or a security threat to the country.

I am not suggesting that we blindly follow the US. I want a Indian government that will bring back our old glorious times our forefathers enjoyed. One of the ways I think it will work quickly is the presidential form of government.

Since we have an awakening right now thanks to Anna Hazare I think this is the right time for us to hit the restart button.

devaraj ji,

what was the 2008 meltdown? and what category do you put the actions of American polity in the aftermath of 2008?
I would say that US has a very good system, which has become too paralyzed by the inherent contradictions of Empire. they are at a cross roads, wondering which path to take. the path they take will reflect America's future life style.

devesh ji:

I read somewhere that Bill Clinton reversed the Glass-Steagall act which removed the boundary between commercial banking and investment banking. This I read was one of the causes of the financial meltdown. I do not know why Clinton reversed it. It may have been due to lobbying. This is a drawback of the American system. After the meltdown some aspects of this act was introduced.

The meltdown affected many countries including countries that have the parliamentary system of the government.

All I want is a presidential form of government which is better IMO compared to the parliamentary form of the government. This will solve many issues that we are facing right now and will help us achieve our goals quicker.

A strong Lokpal bill + presidential form of government will be a good combination.

The reason I am stressing about government is because (please correct me if I am wrong) Lokpal bill may stop someone accepting a bribe but it is not the panacea to all the problems we are facing. We need much more than the Lokpal bill.

komal · Post by **komal** » 09 Jul 2011 03:00

I read somewhere that Bill Clinton reversed the Glass-Steagall act which removed the boundary between commercial banking and investment banking. This I read was one of the causes of the financial meltdown. I do not know why Clinton reversed it. It may have been due to lobbying. This is a drawback of the American system. After the meltdown some aspects of this act was introduced.

Minor point, but as the motto of Tamil Nadu says, 'Truth Alone Triumphs'. That Bill Clinton reversed Glass Steagall is GOP talking point spread by the likes of Dan Burton and Dana Rohrbacher.

The initial curtailment of Glass Steagall happend under Ronald Wilson Reagan (who dedicated a space shuttle to the ISI sponsored 'freedom fighters'). The final repeal was called the Graham Leach Biley Act (all Rebublicans).

To blame it all on Bill Clinton is not only a lie but plays into the the hands of those who were generous with our tax dollars to the ISI.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 09 Jul 2011 04:42

komal wrote:
I read somewhere that Bill Clinton reversed the Glass-Steagall act which removed the boundary between commercial banking and investment banking. This I read was one of the causes of the financial meltdown. I do not know why Clinton reversed it. It may have been due to lobbying. This is a drawback of the American system. After the meltdown some aspects of this act was introduced.
Minor point, but as the motto of Tamil Nadu says, 'Truth Alone Triumphs'.

Sorry for the OT, but that is the national motto of India, not just TN. I assume you have heard of "Satymeva Jayate".

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 09 Jul 2011 05:19

Indians are more oriented towards the truth, and we can learn from mistakes made by America or UK or other democracies, and evolve a stable system, surely we can and we will someday.The current impasse is actually bringing us closer to such a system perhaps.People will get fed up of parties fighting amongst themselves, and will demand a stable government. It is the job of the politicians to provide a stable governance, but some of them seem to revel in deep sh**.Eventually Satyameva Jayate will prove itself.By the way, Did you people notice, after meeting Sonia, Anna Hazare has almost gone off the press radar?What's cooking I wonder.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 09 Jul 2011 06:48

brihaspati wrote:I think we are going in the wrong direction. What should be explored is to reduce role of human decision-maker in deciding fate and benefits/rights/entitlements of individuals and entities - as much as is practically feasible.

True, but it is not mutually exclusive with a Lokpal (preferably elected). One cannot support the idea that there must be no mechanism to punish the corrupt. One step at a time.

komal · Post by **komal** » 09 Jul 2011 09:46

Sorry for the OT, but that is the national motto of India, not just TN. I assume you have heard of "Satymeva Jayate".

I actually didn't know that! I left India long years back but still have a copy of an official order that says "Government of Madras" and "Truth Alone Triumphs" on the letterhead. That letterhead was the source of my information. Thanks for the correction!