LCA News and Discussions

Avid · Post by **Avid** » 05 Jul 2011 17:11

I believe the F414-INS6 is the EDE variant of the 414. I am speculating that the 6 in the designation is for 6 stages in HPC.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_El ... 4#Variants
F414-EDE
The "Enhanced Durability Engine" or "EDE" variant, includes an improved high pressure turbine (HPT) and high pressure core (HPC). The HPT is redesigned to withstand slightly higher temperatures and includes aerodynamic changes. The HPC has been redesigned to 6 stages, down from 7. These changes were aimed at reducing SFC by 2% and three times greater component durability.

The 120kN is not wishful thinking, but merely misinterpretation of information. Since it was said that the F414-INS6 was the highest thrust variant of F414 -- naturally lot of people assumed it was the EPE. Little did they know that the statement needs parsed more carefully because EPE is not cleared yet. Rarely is it stated anywhere that EPE is under development and not available. Everywhere GE maintains that EPE is a new engine versions which offers 120kN of thrust (not will offer).

Avid · Post by **Avid** » 05 Jul 2011 17:13

By the way, any ideas why F414G for Gripen is rated at 96kN, when EDE was widely available with slightly higher thrust @ 98kN?

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 05 Jul 2011 17:33

chiragAS wrote:being used to just seeing the test flight info on ada webpage i had missied this
http://www.tejas.gov.in/
When did this went online...

Lots of nice pics there.
http://gallery.tejas.gov.in/Tejas/Tejas ... 817-XL.jpg

http://gallery.tejas.gov.in/Other/Photo ... 203-XL.jpg

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 05 Jul 2011 18:17

Full marks to ADA to come up with something like this website.....!!!

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 05 Jul 2011 18:28

And videos?

http://gallery.tejas.gov.in/Tejas/TEJAS ... 108_wbXS2C

aliasgar · Post by **aliasgar** » 05 Jul 2011 18:35

Finally a professional looking website without blinking and scrolling text. Thank you God!

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 05 Jul 2011 18:48

Neela wrote:Wow!
Pics section has some that I have never seen!
Fantastic videos on AI 2011

Sent a congratulatory note to ADA for the website

Seriously they deserve some approbation. May be we can also send suggestions to further improve the website.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 05 Jul 2011 20:09

Ada has done a fantastic job on coming up with the a dedicated site like this ,but it has borrowed lot of ideas from the original fan boy site called (www.lca-tejas.org) , which according to the site is 5 year old now . i liked the gallery ,seriously some unseen shots of Tejas there

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 05 Jul 2011 20:13

So they listened to me

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Jul 2011 21:17

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 05 Jul 2011 21:18

chiragAS wrote:I was of the impression that i was the only one who didnt know about this. seems like I broke the news so if adminullah permits can i start the lungi dance. (After all They have finally done what br folks were cribbing about since ages !)

This is a find ! I've never seen this website before nor heard any mention of it..Thanks Chirag.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 05 Jul 2011 21:22

Rahul M wrote:it's 98 kN F414, I don't know where the 120 kN rumour is coming from. the EPE was never mentioned wrt tejas AFAIK.

p.s. never trust wiki without confirmation.

Exactly. 414EPE was/is a relatively recent development, not ready to be integrated just yet onto the Mk2. But 98 kN is a lot of wet thrust to have, and considering the size/weight of the Tejas Mk2, it should give plenty of excess thrust to the pilots in the demanding regimes.

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 05 Jul 2011 22:15

Thanks Chirag!
After seeing these photos now I want to name her Mallika-e-hindustan

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Jul 2011 22:18

There was a mention of using TVC long time back on LCA future version. Or was that similar to 120 kN story?

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 05 Jul 2011 22:21

Here's the Vimeo link for the featured video on the site. You can watch it in fullscreen HD:

http://vimeo.com/25015952

Parakram · Post by **Parakram** » 05 Jul 2011 22:29

I am disappointed to see a section "Careers" on the tejas site

And seriously some section

1. Submit your "Tejas" ( Where we can submit our design )
2. Tejas wish list ( What you want Tejas to become )

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 05 Jul 2011 23:08

Parakram wrote:Check this link

http://www.geae.com/aboutgeae/presscent ... 01001.html

It says
"The F414-GE-INS6 is the highest-thrust F414 model".

What they want to convey here ?

However there is a catch.

F414-EPE is part of F414 family. F414-EPE/EDE is still under development and is expected by 2014/15. F414-EPE/EDE is offered as an upgrade to F-18E/F during MMRCA competition as well as to USN. It form fit with existing F414-400 engine with no changes needed to aircraft structure and its T:W is 11:1 compared to 9:1 for F414-400 engine. SFC for F414-EPE/EDE is better by 1-3% compared to F414-400 - IOW, it is easily replaceable with no adverse changes.

If this F414-EPE was offered to India for MMRCA, it is reasonable to expect that it could also be considered for LCA.

BTW... from Aviation Week

The new engine offers up to a 20 percent thrust boost. That would take the EPE up to 26,500 pounds of thrust, giving it the best thrust/weight ratio of any fighter engine -- almost 11:1. Alternatively (an option understood to be attracting interest at Saab) the EPE could be delivered with a 10 percent uprate and very generous temperature margins, extending its life and reducing fighter life-cycle costs.

The EPE "will not make much difference at an air show", says Boeing chief test pilot Ric Traven, but dramatically improves the fighter's performance at high speed and altitude, halving supersonic acceleration times. For the Gripen, the extra thrust would translate into further-improved supercruise (supersonic level flight without afterburner) capability.

Can Tejas Mk2 supercruise? Does IAF/ADA prefers Mk2 to supercruise? With supercruise capability and reduced SFC, it is only natural to expect with EPE engine, Tejas Mk2 will have extended range.

JMT.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Jul 2011 23:09

MK2 is an improved LCA MK1 with extra features and some tweaking. Lets leave the EPE for MK3.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 05 Jul 2011 23:17

Why are people so hung up on that 120KN figure? Why would an aircraft of the LCA's size and weight need a 120KN engine in the first place? Keep in mind that a higher thrust engine (especially if the increase is as high as 20KN) may require enlarged intakes for increasing the airflow. Why would we want to redesign the intakes and delay the Mk2 when a 98KN engine is more than adequate for our requirements?

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 05 Jul 2011 23:17

Parakram wrote: 1. Submit your "Tejas" ( Where we can submit our design )
2. Tejas wish list ( What you want Tejas to become )

Please tell me you are not serious!

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 05 Jul 2011 23:19

A rare picture of the Tejas Mk1 with centerline drop tank

Tejas with centerline drop tank

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 05 Jul 2011 23:24

nachiket wrote:Why are people so hung up on that 120KN figure? Why would an aircraft of the LCA's size and weight need a 120KN engine in the first place? Keep in mind that a higher thrust engine (especially if the increase is as high as 20KN) may require enlarged intakes for increasing the airflow. Why would we want to redesign the intakes and delay the Mk2 when a 98KN engine is more than adequate for our requirements?

98kN is plenty of thrust but still why settle for it when a 120kN variant is available at the same weight and in the same volume?

Its true that a further enlargement in the size of intakes may be called for, but its worth the effort. Timelines shouldn't be too much of worry seeing as the Mk2 is intended to start testing in 2014 by which time the F-414EPE ought to be in full production as well.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Jul 2011 23:37

More thrust, more fuel consumption, redesign for more fuel, recalculate Cg, modify FBW, add time to development effort

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 05 Jul 2011 23:45

HR pics from a GOI website????

Kudos. DRDO tech focus please take note.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 05 Jul 2011 23:48

The fan of EPE engine is of same size. Boeing maintains that no changes needed for air in-take with EPE engine. Specific fuel consumption is less with EPE engine, which means it consumes less fuel than F414-400 engine.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Jul 2011 23:55

hmmm, interesting...but till it is proven the IAF would be vary.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Jul 2011 00:55

So, that is where the 120kN came from.. GE 414 EPE.

118 kN

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... hrust.html

well.. not applicable anymore, since we are NOT going for the Super Hornets.
98kN it shall be for LCA., let us remove those extra wet dreams.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 06 Jul 2011 01:48

FYI Only:

June 11, 2011 :: GE :: Strong Portfolio and Technology Highlight GE’s Military Prowess

An F414 Enhanced Durability Engine (EDE) features both a new high-pressure turbine and new six-stage, high-pressure compressor to offer durability improvement and life-cycle cost savings. The F414 Enhanced Performance Engine (EPE) will generate up to 20% more thrust and provide reduced fuel consumption by adding a new fan design featuring greater air flow to the EDE core.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 06 Jul 2011 04:03

Kartik wrote:A rare picture of the Tejas Mk1 with centerline drop tank

Tejas with centerline drop tank

Tejas.gov.in site has the largest collection of pictures, that too in High-Res... Great work!!!
Please post it on your Facebook to give maximum publicity to our ellceeeyaaa

chiragAS · Post by **chiragAS** » 06 Jul 2011 06:44

Kartik wrote:
chiragAS wrote:I was of the impression that i was the only one who didnt know about this. seems like I broke the news so if adminullah permits can i start the lungi dance. (After all They have finally done what br folks were cribbing about since ages !)
This is a find ! I've never seen this website before nor heard any mention of it..Thanks Chirag.

thanks for appreciating ...

When i first stumbled upon this i actually shouted "Finally !!"in my office.

I particularly liked the homepage and the slide show feature for pics!!!
If people have contacts it would be great to mail and ask them to make such great websites for GTRE and other DRDO products.
The aam janta are used to salivating bo#ing etc. Time has come for us to market our wares too..

The only thing i guess the .gov . in might not be suitable in the long run.
don't you think too many pics of ada folks that too in so high reso might not be a good idea ... spooks issue... ( just for the safety of our people why make it easier)

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Jul 2011 07:02

So, GTRE needs to put more r&d in fan design, to cross the 100kN mark. It must be a lot r&d data, that our babus will cry through their noses to invest... rather pay 10 times to a firang nation.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 06 Jul 2011 09:52

It would be nice if they had a technical section with whitepapers. Also updates on where they are in terms of realisation of capabilities would be great(of course you can never entirely please jingos). Also curiously no mention of Israel's help in the MMR ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jul 2011 09:58

imo for Tejas EDE > EPE .

120kN EPE could be an option for the AMCA - if needed which I kind of doubt given its compact dimensions. so far its not clear if the kaveri-snecma will target 100kn or 120Kn...they should try to produce an engine keeping in mind AMCA thrust requirement so that even if it sees limited service in Tejas, it can deploy in certified full volume for AMCA in 15 yrs.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 06 Jul 2011 10:17

chiragAS wrote:don't you think too many pics of ada folks that too in so high reso might not be a good idea ... spooks issue... ( just for the safety of our people why make it easier)

Good point chirag... i thought so too... if there is a comment section we can place a comment for this removal.. Remember the unfortunate event in Hyderabad involving a small boy, it was really sad... we don't want such misfortunes to happen to anyone...

R Atkinson · Post by **R Atkinson** » 08 Jul 2011 02:09

http://deshgujarat.com/2011/07/04/bhavn ... ode-radar/

Guys,

Just found this on a regional website that covers Gujrat specific news. It is your classic DDM type piece, and it is likely that the company in question produced a sub-assembly for the MMR, and not the whole thing.

But even then, this is some positive news regarding the MMR

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 08 Jul 2011 04:09

R Atkinson wrote:...and it is likely that the company in question produced a sub-assembly for the MMR, and not the whole thing.

The reported actually says what the company "IPCL" contributed when he states;

The company has locally manufactured two thin-wall castings for the defense ministry of the government of India. These castings will be fitted with the Multi Mode Radar in the light weight combat aircraft ‘Tejas’.

and then he gets carried away...interesting to note that IPCL has provided a two thin wall-casting, meaning LRDE/BEL would use these castings to create the enclosure for mounting the radar elements (T/R modules).
Castings are used to manufacture and not for design, hence I think Desh has completed development of the MMR and moving towards manufacture of the same, hence the need for castings?
Refer to Castings below http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casting

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 08 Jul 2011 04:57

http://www.tejas.gov.in/specifications/ ... mance.html

Clean take off weight = 9T . Correct?

Also max G is 9G. This has been validated from the HAL poster at AI '11. So we should lay the 8-8.5G speculations to rest.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 08 Jul 2011 09:20

Kudos to team Tejas! Achieving 9g is no mean feat

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 08 Jul 2011 09:34

indranilroy wrote:http://www.tejas.gov.in/specifications/ ... mance.html

Clean take off weight = 9T . Correct?

Also max G is 9G. This has been validated from the HAL poster at AI '11. So we should lay the 8-8.5G speculations to rest.

No speculations. It will be 8-8.5G.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 08 Jul 2011 10:07

indranilroy wrote:http://www.tejas.gov.in/specifications/ ... mance.html

Clean take off weight = 9T . Correct?

Also max G is 9G. This has been validated from the HAL poster at AI '11. So we should lay the 8-8.5G speculations to rest.

yes indeed we should lay it to rest.

I owe an apology to Rahul M if he gets what I mean.